About mirage mesmer and condi thieves

[mortrialus.3062]

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:I've heard whispers of a new thief build that when combined with the new preparations can stack 60 poison in the span of about three seconds. Cannot confirm as I haven't seen it myself.

Thousand needles last 5 secs.

So in theory you can get 8 stacks of poison from traits in this time with deadly ambition, panic strike, and potent poison.

If you are running spider venom you can add 6 more stacks of posion.

Sigil of doom proc add 1.

If this was enough to drop you below 50% health, panic strikes again and add 2.

Running devourer venom, add 4.

That would be 21.

If you could stack the spier venom with venom from leeching venoms, you could add 6 more stack.

To get that to work you would need to use another preparation .

But, we are at 27 stacks now.

Fire 3 body shots for 6 more stacks of poison from panic strike.

That's 33 stacks.

Now make it a duo of thieves.

66 stacks of poison.

If you drop devour for a stun break, the total is 58.

But, what the hell, let's call it 60.

Edit5 stacks from the trap,...make it 68 total....omegaomelet.

What about equipment changes like Rune of Thorns?

[Crab Fear.1624]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

What about equipment changes like Rune of Thorns?

Also, tack on 3 stacks for steal.

Rune of thorns and deadshot would make it work.

[lovemghool.7613]

escape sigil is good vs both

use it instead of cancer annulment

[Psycoprophet.8107]

If ur dying to a condi thief u need to seriously get gud and practice. I've used(stopped cuz it sucks even with recent changes) condi builds and fought many and their the easiest thief build to deal with especially on s/d lmao people play condi thief cuz they enjoy its playstyle or to switch things up but definitely not because it's a superior build lmao and four getting caught in thiefs prep skills I donno what to tell u. I'd rather face any mirage or condi thief any day over any warrior or holo's brain dead cc knockdown builds that use any and every cc to knock u down so they can cleave u while ur laying on the ground lmao soo much skill. I laugh when warriors complain about the new thief changes when their sustain is what it is and they call thief cheap when all the do is try for cc and cleave while ur down lol dont see me whining about thiefs lack of stability cuz it's my fault for getting cc'd cuz I kno its common lol always is.

[Crab Fear.1624]

@"mortrialus.3062" said:

What about equipment changes like Rune of Thorns?

I decided to actually go test it out and see if it would be actually possible on a more practical build.

I got 27-28 stacks alone in about 3-4 seconds on a build I have played before when traps were a thing.

Did it just now with preparations.

https://youtu.be/-VT3Z66In9A

[yusayu.3629]

@King xiuras.3615 said:Me angry warrior because me can't just press through all skills against these classes.

[Alatar.7364]

@Daishi.6027 said:

@Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

@Daishi.6027 said:and 6 from Nomads endurance. PvP is only 1.5sec per shatter.

This is right actually. I made an oopsie and i'll go back and fix.

Bold statement is flat out wrong. Back around season 9 - 12 players calculated the evasion/block/invuln uptime between mirage and DD including vigor.DD had more, and this was BEFORE the nerfs. Even if DD was to lose out, DD still had more on demand evasion compared to Mirage's uptime, a lot of it btw being tied to things like Mirrors, which I'll get to.

I'm not going to count random instances of RNG, you could hypotethically steal a boon and get it. Besides power builds don't typically go down Chaos line.

so 5s from False Oasis5s from Critical infusionI don't think a grand total of 16 seconds across 5 cooldowns (many upwards of 20 second cooldowns), and a trait (with a 10 second cooldown) is what I'd call a lot.

Not counting CI is a bit of an unfair caveat, seeing as it has no internal CD. I hope if you aren't counting that, then you aren't counting on DD stealing vigor from someone either, because that's also RNG. There's also Bountiful Disillusionment as an alternative to CI entirely too, as @Tayga.3192 pointed out.

I don't think it's reasonable to calculate something as inconsistent as RNG, and they were never included in the calculations for either class.Bountiful disillusionment is fair but also keep in mind that it was really rare to find a mesmer going chaos after the PU nerfs in 2015, excluding maybe some chronobunk builds in season 5-7, long before the frequency of people running CI; and if people are going chaos now odds are you're taking CI.

Similarly speaking, if we're going to go back in time to make excuses for today; then guess what, i'm counting distort as an evade!I know you may not think it's a lot, and to your credit; you make it seem like a lot less, but even at base; it's more than DD gets. It's also more than almost every class in PvP gets, other than Holo/Scrapper.Brah common. I already pointed out that this was accounted for.@Daishi.6027 said:Back around season 9 - 12 players calculated the

evasion/block/invuln uptime

between mirage and DD including vigor.That included distortion, and if mirage ran scepter block, axe, and offhand sword. specifically hitting all of the condi mirage meta variant build weapon sets. This also included power builds running sword for blurred frenzy.

To reiterate DD had

MORE up time on damage mitigating cooldowns

(that people just lumped together calling it evades), and this was

BEFORE Mirage was nerfed

, while DD maintained it's dodge. Also I'm going to reassert that EVEN

IF

DD lost out in that calculation; there is a significant difference between "oh no I'm going to get hit,

dodge in response

", VS "Oh no I'm going to get hit

walks 900-1000 range, or blows a 30 second cooldown to trigger

" (1)

And of course, that'd be ignoring CI or the 8s from Bountiful Disillusionment, and like I say; with how spammable CI is, there's potential for that number to be buffed longer, and that'd still be needless. At 16 seconds you can still bounce between Critical Infusion, CI, Nomad's Endurance, and False Oasis for close to, if not 100% uptime in theory, and regardless; you'd still have more vigor uptime than the majority of viable classes in PvP.

Sorry that isn't how that works. Even if there is no cooldown to the trait there is a cooldown to how often an interupt can be used, and in a meta game full of easy access evades/blocks/invulns, even with daze mantra, we're looking at a 12 second cool down and an over 2 second charge time that leaves you vulnerable, with one CC option per weapons set (some that are very clunky like torch, and offhand sword), and diversion shatter.Everything other than Mantra and Offhand sword (something not typically run) sports a cooldown upwards of 25 seconds capping at 38. Even if you land every CC you do not get 100% up time on mirage.

Mirrors although are evasions are stupidly easy to play around, your only control method is to walk into them, it's easy to just not waste a singe hit attack on someone walking into the obvious purple diamond thing, or to use the time to use a longer cast time, or multi hit skill. These are a dodge yes, but they aren't useful when you have to walk a certain distance away, or blow a significantly more valuable cooldown to trigger them.

Also let's not pretend the evasion on illusionary counter matters, it only exists as a bandaid so you aren't instantly vulnerable during the trigger animation. That was a band-aid fix A-net made back in 2017 after explicitly stating that they made the attack to long leaving you vulnerable, but wanted to keep the current speed.

So Mirage before the nerfs had less than DD, after the nerfs has significantly less vigor. To top it off a chunck of that evasion time is on a mechanic that is terribly designed for PvP.

This is just more Miragesplaining™. When the point being made is that mirages have more evades than condi DD, these are both evades in the end. Their effectiveness really hardly matters, so understate/overstate away.

(1) check my citation regarding effectiveness. But okay, I'll accept the answer that an evade is an evade.

And i'm not really looking at things retrospectively. I don't mean to be rude, but if DD had more vigor than Mirage in the past; that really doesn't contribute anything to what the OP and myself are complaining about.

I'll admit, I'm a bit less versed with the advent of Condi DD, and am willing to accept that perhaps specifically Condi DD may have less vigor. My argument from the start is

DD, at least the power version and it's variants that have existed forever maintained their evasiveness while mirage got nerfed HARD.

Sorry for jumping in to your conversation without paying too much attention to its context but this part in bold really got to me.Of course DD maintained its evassivness

(which it didn't compared to its release)

, its evassivness is it's one and only defense with occasional use of one time mobility to run away. DD doesn't have bloated defense with blocks/invul/protection spam/aegis/ALSO super high evade uptime/also mobility all in one kit like Mirage does, so it better damn keep higher evade uptime than all other professions.Not to mention that almost since release, Thief and all of its specs were fulfilling only one role, unlike Mirage who was able to fill in all existing roles except Support, all in one kit, so it had to get nerfed "hard", there was no excuse for it not to get nerfed hard and yet as you can see, even after those nerfs, it is still a go to profession for majority

(sorry for what I am about to use)

of the sheep "players".

[mortrialus.3062]

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@"mortrialus.3062" said:

What about equipment changes like Rune of Thorns?

I decided to actually go test it out and see if it would be actually possible on a more practical build.

I got 27-28 stacks alone in about 3-4 seconds on a build I have played before when traps were a thing.

Did it just now with preparations.

https://youtu.be/-VT3Z66In9A

Holy shit

[Tayga.3192]

Thieves should have more evades than mesmer anyway.

@"Alatar.7364" said:snip

Protection spam comes from the defensive line, chaos. It's the same with inventions in engineer (protection), acrobatics in thief (vigor and steal), blood magic in necromancer (heals and reviving), defense in warrior (passive defenses) and so on. Those lines are a tradeoff between more damage and more defense. Old mirage builds ran illusions instead of chaos.It's worth noting that staff is without doubt the best mesmer weapon and staff trait is in chaos line.(inspiration is bad for anything other than chrono)

Scepter/Pistol + Staff mesmers have 1 block, %8 invulnerable uptime (best case distortion), protection and rng aegis. It's pretty normal to expect a mesmer to be able to "tank" more damage (be it by evades, invulns etc) as a 1v1 class (can't really teamfight) than thief, which is not a 1v1 class (has more mobility).

You say "sheep players" and I kind of agree: Good mesmer mains are either memeing, changed mains, went pve or stopped playing.

[Alatar.7364]

@Tayga.3192 said:Thieves should have more evades than mesmer anyway.

@"Alatar.7364" said:snip

Protection spam comes from the defensive line, chaos. It's the same with inventions in engineer (protection), acrobatics in thief (vigor and steal), blood magic in necromancer (heals and reviving), defense in warrior (passive defenses) and so on. Those lines are a tradeoff between more damage and more defense. Old mirage builds ran illusions instead of chaos.It's worth noting that staff is without doubt the best mesmer weapon and staff trait is in chaos line.(inspiration is bad for anything other than chrono)

Scepter/Pistol + Staff mesmers have 1 block, %8 invulnerable uptime (best case distortion), protection and rng aegis. It's pretty normal to expect a mesmer to be able to "tank" more damage (be it by evades, invulns etc) as a 1v1 class (can't really teamfight) than thief, which is not a 1v1 class (has more mobility).

You say "sheep players" and I kind of agree: Good mesmer mains are either memeing, changed mains, went pve or stopped playing.

I agree, what I ment is that Thief should have more evades than Mirage for various reasons, I don't really complain that Mirage can 1v1 and Thief can not, also DD is defensive traitline as well or at the very least defensively orientated, like Chaos, so the comparasion seems fair to me.

About the "sheep players", you probably understood it correctly, but to clarify for other readers, by those I ment people who dont main mesmer or even enjoy mesmer but flock to it. I've always pitied the true Mesmer mains that they have to suffer being branded along with the ones who are not.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

What's all this about "should have"? Thieves have a lot more evades, period.

[Alatar.7364]

@"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:What's all this about "should have"? Thieves have a lot more evades, period.

"Should" doesn't have just one meaning in English language, if you read the sentence its obvious that means it is correct they have more, not that they don't but "should".

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

There are a lot of biased opinions, and just false statements in these comments. OP is completely right in stating that mirage is horrible design for pvp. Evading while attacking/cced, target breaks, continuous clone spam/visual noise are all terrible game design. Also just because condi thieves arent meta or good in 1v1s doesnt mean they arent incredibly annoying.

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

@Daishi.6027 said:

@Multicolorhipster.9751 said:Not counting CI is a bit of an unfair caveat, seeing as it has no internal CD. I hope if you aren't counting that, then you aren't counting on DD stealing vigor from someone either, because that's also RNG. There's also Bountiful Disillusionment as an alternative to CI entirely too, as @"Tayga.3192" pointed out.

I don't think it's reasonable to calculate something as inconsistent as RNG, and they were never included in the calculations for either class.Bountiful disillusionment is fair but also keep in mind that it was really rare to find a mesmer going chaos after the PU nerfs in 2015, excluding maybe some chronobunk builds in season 5-7, long before the frequency of people running CI; and if people are going chaos now odds are you're taking CI.Sorry that isn't how that works. Even if there is no cooldown to the trait there is a cooldown to how often an interupt can be used, and in a meta game full of easy access evades/blocks/invulns, even with daze mantra, we're looking at a 12 second cool down and an over 2 second charge time that leaves you vulnerable, with one CC option per weapons set (some that are very clunky like torch, and offhand sword), and diversion shatter.Everything other than Mantra and Offhand sword (something not typically run) sports a cooldown upwards of 25 seconds capping at 38. Even if you land every CC you do not get 100% up time on mirage.

RNG might not be the most reasonable gameplay functionality, but I don't think it's very fair to compare getting vigor from a trait with no internal cooldown versus potentially stealing vigor on a ~24s Cooldown with swipe. They're both RNG, but the RNGods clearly favor one more than the other.

The fact that there's no internal cooldown on CI coupled with all the interrupt options, is not only why this is, but I also think is what annoys people the most right now in this moment. That, and maybe the fact it's can be triggered by an insta-cast ranged skill with no tell.

Mantra of Distraction isn't the only interrupt that triggers CI after all. CI mirage has a ton as well as ways to reduce the CDs of some. I know there's a CD on interrupts to prevent multiple effects like this stacking up, but; it's only about 3 seconds, and only describes interrupts that come from the same source, and I couldn't find anything on the wiki about the interaction with stunbreaks either, which could in theory lead to more interrupts from the same source if the interrupt came from something like F3 or Chaos Storm.

Funny thing about Chaos Storm actually, it doesn't even follow the rules. A single one can interrupt multiple times and still proc CI, which combined with CI's imob can combo CI into CI again.Diversion can work the same way with proper spacing with clones.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chaos_Stormhttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Diversion

PS. the only thing I'd consider rude is the "MirageSplaining" thing. If only because it seems more like an ad hominem to discredit arguments than anything else.

Miragesplaining™ is more of a descriptor rather than an insult.

If I had to define it, it'd be: Miragesplaining(Noun/verb) - The explanations of a Mirage, typically to anyone complaining about any sort of function of the class, in a manner regarded as either condescending or fruitless.

Use of the word is very context-dependent, and in the case of this conversation is no more fallacious, as even you had said that that condi DD is new, and when it comes to the evades from mirrors, they're still evades, effectiveness of which; not even being debated, therefore pretty pointless.

I respect you, your opinion, and your right to Miragesplain™. I would never insult you.

[Tayga.3192]

@"Multicolorhipster.9751" said:RNG might not be the most reasonable gameplay functionality, but I don't think it's very fair to compare getting vigor from a trait with no internal cooldown versus potentially stealing vigor on a ~24s Cooldown with swipe. They're both RNG, but the RNGods clearly favor one more than the other.

Bountiful Theft is not an RNG skill, it instantly grants 10 second vigor and steals boons with a priority: here

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

@Tayga.3192 said:

@"Multicolorhipster.9751" said:RNG might not be the most reasonable gameplay functionality, but I don't think it's very fair to compare getting vigor from a trait with no internal cooldown versus potentially stealing vigor on a ~24s Cooldown with swipe. They're both RNG, but the RNGods clearly favor one more than the other.

Bountiful Theft is not an RNG skill, it instantly grants 10 second vigor and steals boons with a priority:

here

Accounted for. This is about the RNG aspect only. Bountiful Theft will always grant vigor, but whether or not you'll actually steal the boon on top of that is RNG.

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

@Tayga.3192 said:Okay, I'll bite the bait.

@King xiuras.3615 said:Mesmers:

Mirage has a total of... two dodges as evade since nobody runs axe and illusionary ambush. I wish mirage had something like Might Makes

Then I must be the exception as I run Axe and illusionary Ambush (although I run DPS not condi)

[Psycoprophet.8107]

How about them fire weavers that are burning peeps down left and right or the warriors knocking peeps down and destroying them before they even get up? U could literally complain about every class is this mess of a game lol

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:I've heard whispers of a new thief build that when combined with the new preparations can stack 60 poison in the span of about three seconds. Cannot confirm as I haven't seen it myself.

Thousand needles last 5 secs.

So in theory you can get 8 stacks of poison from traits in this time with deadly ambition, panic strike, and potent poison.

If you are running spider venom you can add 6 more stacks of posion.

Sigil of doom proc add 1.

If this was enough to drop you below 50% health, panic strikes again and add 2.

Running devourer venom, add 4.

That would be 21.

If you could stack the spier venom with venom from leeching venoms, you could add 6 more stack.

To get that to work you would need to use another preparation .

But, we are at 27 stacks now.

Fire 3 body shots for 6 more stacks of poison from panic strike.

That's 33 stacks.

Now make it a duo of thieves.

66 stacks of poison.

If you drop devour for a stun break, the total is 58.

But, what the hell, let's call it 60.

Edit5 stacks from the trap,...make it 68 total....omegaomelet.

The hilarious thing is that, these poison stacks don't even touch the nuclear horse shit that was broken scourge condi stack amplification upon initial PoF release lol.

[Markri.9475]

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:I've heard whispers of a new thief build that when combined with the new preparations can stack 60 poison in the span of about three seconds. Cannot confirm as I haven't seen it myself.

Thousand needles last 5 secs.

So in theory you can get 8 stacks of poison from traits in this time with deadly ambition, panic strike, and potent poison.

If you are running spider venom you can add 6 more stacks of posion.

Sigil of doom proc add 1.

If this was enough to drop you below 50% health, panic strikes again and add 2.

Running devourer venom, add 4.

That would be 21.

If you could stack the spier venom with venom from leeching venoms, you could add 6 more stack.

To get that to work you would need to use another preparation .

But, we are at 27 stacks now.

Fire 3 body shots for 6 more stacks of poison from panic strike.

That's 33 stacks.

Now make it a duo of thieves.

66 stacks of poison.

If you drop devour for a stun break, the total is 58.

But, what the hell, let's call it 60.

Edit5 stacks from the trap,...make it 68 total....omegaomelet.

Since you can have 5 thieves in PvP, its actually 165 stacks.Jokes aside tho, wouldn't you use Thieves guild and share SpiderPoison to them for max stacks? assuming that works, as I never use that elite.

[Vague Memory.2817]

Most people are not going to think this is a serious post if you think 1 mes can have 8 clones. very likely you have enemy models turned on in settings, but you were definitely fighting two mes at once. Unfortunately enemy models can't distinguish between 2 different players of the same class, they look the same.

[Megametzler.5729]

@Vague Memory.2817 said:Most people are not going to think this is a serious post if you think 1 mes can have 8 clones. very likely you have enemy models turned on in settings, but you were definitely fighting two mes at once. Unfortunately enemy models can't distinguish between 2 different players of the same class, they look the same.

I guess he means mesmers themselves, up to 3 clones and easily 2 illusions (staff) at the same time. It is bad design, resulting from that rework back in 2018 (?), but it doesn't make mesmer OP per se.

While chrono needs buffs now, condi mriage is in an okay spot. I'd like to see and ICD on CI, they might need (minor) buffs elsewhere.

I am seeing more condi thieves too though and I don't know why. They surprised me once or twice not being specced for this, then they became easily manageable. I am not sure yet whether it's just people trolling or some streamer played this and people try it out? I absolutely doubt it will be problematic though.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@Megametzler.5729 said:

@Vague Memory.2817 said:Most people are not going to think this is a serious post if you think 1 mes can have 8 clones. very likely you have enemy models turned on in settings, but you were definitely fighting two mes at once. Unfortunately enemy models can't distinguish between 2 different players of the same class, they look the same.

I guess he means mesmers themselves, up to 3 clones and easily 2 illusions (staff) at the same time. It is bad design, resulting from that rework back in 2018 (?), but it doesn't make mesmer OP per se.

While chrono needs buffs now, condi mriage is in an okay spot. I'd like to see and ICD on CI, they might need (minor) buffs elsewhere.

I am seeing more condi thieves too though and I don't know why. They surprised me once or twice not being specced for this, then they became easily manageable. I am not sure yet whether it's just people trolling or some streamer played this and people try it out? I absolutely doubt it will be problematic though.

Lol its thief players trying to make use of the trait changes on DA and SA, they wont be a problem due to the traits mostly being underwhelming. But their trying to be positive about it so theres that lol

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@"King xiuras.3615" said:Is this the epitome of fun?

Two guys decided to roll to mirage mesmer before the game even started. My team had to face two condi evading thieves with interrupts and 3 mirage mesmers.

Anet, play some pvp games and tell us if you still enjoy fighting this kind of builds? I bet ya won't....

https://i.imgur.com/FWa4Bn7.jpg

snorts ezmoney

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

Lol its thief players trying to make use of the trait changes on DA and SA, they wont be a problem due to the traits mostly being underwhelming. But their trying to be positive about it so theres that lol

Thieves aren't despairing, somethings WRONG

[Daishi.6027]

@"Alatar.7364" said:its evassivness is it's one and only defense with occasional use of one time mobility to run away. DD doesn't have bloated defense with blocks/invul/protection spam/aegis/ALSO super high evade uptime/also mobility all in one kit like Mirage does, so it better kitten keep higher evade uptime than all other professions.

So Thieves didn't have blocks, and blinds on top of the evasion along with either being being able to engage and disengage at will with teleports, or had perma stealth? The last two something mesmer could not do? (and was far superior to a mechanic like illusions)

People seem to want to compare invulns and evades as if invulns are much superior, when only relatively recently did they block condi dmg ticks. If you have a 2 second evade and compare it to a 2 second invuln, most of the time it adds up to about the same thing.

not saying DD shouldn't have more, but it's disingenuous to complain about mirage's evasion who then at least in terms of power builds had to line up something significantly less safe and less widely than a backstab, or dance around sword. You also say "all in one kit", for Thief a lot of defensive options came from weapons. I'd call that more "all in one kit" than Mes scrounging form 3 different lines

Not to mention that almost since release, Thief and all of its specs were fulfilling only one role, unlike Mirage who was able to fill in all existing roles except Support, all in one kit, so it had to get nerfed "hard", there was no excuse for it not to get nerfed hard and yet as you can see, even after those nerfs, it is still a go to profession for majority (sorry for what I am about to use) of the sheep "players".

Since release Mesmer was replaced by thief up until HoT, and was only taken for Portal and TimeWarp, both taken for the team. After S1 Chronobunk was nerfed it was condi mes mostly taken for Portal and double Moa. I don't know how that's "filling every roll"

It's only a "Go to Profession" because the condi dmg is to much and it's application methods have never been addressed, a-net just keeps nerfing the survivability thinking that'll fix it. But time and again Mes adapts, and people cry. All because the real issue isn't fixed.