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Hard counter to CI Mesmer


Chiral.8915

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Rather than complain about CI mesmer I'd rather focus on what is considered a hard counter to CI Mesmer and more generally since it seems that condi is slowly becoming the meta, what is a a hard anti-condi build? Arcane/water/weaver ele? Hybrid firebrand? Looking forward to the input. Thx!

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@Chiral.8915 said:Rather than complain about CI mesmer I'd rather focus on what is considered a hard counter to CI Mesmer and more generally since it seems that condi is slowly becoming the meta, what is a a hard anti-condi build? Arcane/water/weaver ele? Hybrid firebrand? Looking forward to the input. Thx!

I think Core Guard (GS) is a strong counter to CI, and Mirage in general. Possibly Proto-Holo too, not 100% sure about that.

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Scourge is usually cancer to me whenever I played mirage. But that could also be because I'm not that great at countering scourge.. Still an option. Fight fire with fire (condi with condi). Mirage has condi clears and converts but necro can corrupt boons into condis which counters mesmer easy.Stay away from CCs because of AA (it converts 2 damaging condis into boons when disabled) unless you're opening with it.That's pretty much all I can say for it.. Mirage should've got the nerf, not Chrono..

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If I must only talk about hard counters,

I am surprised nobody said the oldest and the best counter there is: Thief.Other than that, all three guardian variants "counter" mesmer. Core and DH can actually kill it while FB can sustain the pressure easily.

Conclusion: If you know how to play thief, it's the best counter. Second is core guard.

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Generally, there are no hard counters for anything. Best option against mesmer condi (regardless of the build) is AOE damage and condi removal. Guardian and engi are the best option, but not the only ones. As a a guardian main, guardian has edge over condi mesmer, regardless of the mesmer build.

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There's no hard counter, but there's a few soft counters.

Acrobatics thief running Don't Stop. Smoke screen is a big +. Don't stop melts immob off you and puts pressure on mirage. use your weapon set of choice but try to take roll for init/withdraw to drop out of Chaos Storm. If you take daredevil, you can mitigate the damage loss from losing Deadly Arts by using Havoc specialist. If you run Deadeye, replace Acrobatics with Shadow Arts. I wouldnt recommend fighting a mirage with Deadeye though, unless you're insane and running a weird D/P build. and even so, the potential for instadowning the mesmer with that is impractical because youll be losing the point the whole time you're setting up.

Condi Revenant running Pulsating pestilence and Mallyx/Glint, but you need to play it perfectly. Use reflect on swap and facet of chaos while channeling Mallyx to push condis out onto clones and mesmer, banish their boons. CI mes has low cleanse and puts out conditions automatically on daze, so they tend to kill themselves if they suddenly find those on them. torment on a mirage is good.

Berserker running outrage and rousing resilience. Take Eternal Champion if you want, but you don't need to. Also, Defiant Stance lets you walk on mirages for 4 seconds, and if nothing else they will burn their dodges trying to not die from that. You will also need to play this perfectly and be ready to run the moment you dont have the right rotation setup to kill them.

Any condi oriented necromancer. be sure to have a better heal than consume conditions. They will power lock you every time if they are half decent.

I dislike Mirages and Mesmers, but there's workarounds right now. If they want to use staff to be annoying, that's fine by me. There's a bunch of weird, non meta builds that work against that.

Chaotic Interruption needs a nerf, but it isnt as egregious as old chronobunker, prenerf post rework phantasm chrono, or pre nerf Evasive mirror condi mirage. I wouldnt even venture to say it is as overpowered as prenerf rampage. 1200 range instant cast daze is annoying though. That needs to be made a projectile so people can see it, or have its range reduced to where thief's headshot is.

Oh, and the most important thing:

If you find yourself in Chaos Storm and dont have a stunbreak that moves you out of Chaos storm, and get immobed, dont press buttons. wait the immob out and leave.

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@"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:There's no hard counter, but there's a few soft counters.

Acrobatics thief running Don't Stop. Smoke screen is a big +. Don't stop melts immob off you and puts pressure on mirage. use your weapon set of choice but try to take roll for init/withdraw to drop out of Chaos Storm. If you take daredevil, you can mitigate the damage loss from losing Deadly Arts by using Havoc specialist. If you run Deadeye, replace Acrobatics with Shadow Arts. I wouldnt recommend fighting a mirage with Deadeye though, unless you're insane and running a weird D/P build. and even so, the potential for instadowning the mesmer with that is impractical because youll be losing the point the whole time you're setting up.

Condi Revenant running Pulsating pestilence and Mallyx/Glint, but you need to play it perfectly. Use reflect on swap and facet of chaos while channeling Mallyx to push condis out onto clones and mesmer, banish their boons. CI mes has low cleanse and puts out conditions automatically on daze, so they tend to kill themselves if they suddenly find those on them. torment on a mirage is good.

Berserker running outrage and rousing resilience. Take Eternal Champion if you want, but you don't need to. Also, Defiant Stance lets you walk on mirages for 4 seconds, and if nothing else they will burn their dodges trying to not die from that. You will also need to play this perfectly and be ready to run the moment you dont have the right rotation setup to kill them.

Any condi oriented necromancer. be sure to have a better heal than consume conditions. They will power lock you every time if they are half decent.

I dislike Mirages and Mesmers, but there's workarounds right now. If they want to use staff to be annoying, that's fine by me. There's a bunch of weird, non meta builds that work against that.

Chaotic Interruption needs a nerf, but it isnt as egregious as old chronobunker, prenerf post rework phantasm chrono, or pre nerf Evasive mirror condi mirage. I wouldnt even venture to say it is as overpowered as prenerf rampage. 1200 range instant cast daze is annoying though. That needs to be made a projectile so people can see it, or have its range reduced to where thief's headshot is.

Oh, and the most important thing:

If you find yourself in Chaos Storm and dont have a stunbreak that moves you out of Chaos storm, and get immobed, dont press buttons. wait the immob out and leave.

Thanks for this post. Very insightful. quick questions...I have a soft spot for meme builds so the Condi rev has my interest. I don't have much experience with rev so my question is why is condi rev so bad in PVP or why does it have to be played perfectly? On paper, rev looks like it has a lot of tools? looking a build like this

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vlAQNApXmn3geNSuQvJRboHlsP0kS4I6SJ4EtrkFUlhtolmy+81nPNgCaA-jZRHAB+XGg5DBgR7PIwTAAgTAAA

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@Chiral.8915 said:

@"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:There's no hard counter, but there's a few soft counters.

Acrobatics thief running Don't Stop. Smoke screen is a big +. Don't stop melts immob off you and puts pressure on mirage. use your weapon set of choice but try to take roll for init/withdraw to drop out of Chaos Storm. If you take daredevil, you can mitigate the damage loss from losing Deadly Arts by using Havoc specialist. If you run Deadeye, replace Acrobatics with Shadow Arts. I wouldnt recommend fighting a mirage with Deadeye though, unless you're insane and running a weird D/P build. and even so, the potential for instadowning the mesmer with that is impractical because youll be losing the point the whole time you're setting up.

Condi Revenant running Pulsating pestilence and Mallyx/Glint, but you need to play it perfectly. Use reflect on swap and facet of chaos while channeling Mallyx to push condis out onto clones and mesmer, banish their boons. CI mes has low cleanse and puts out conditions automatically on daze, so they tend to kill themselves if they suddenly find those on them. torment on a mirage is good.

Berserker running outrage and rousing resilience. Take Eternal Champion if you want, but you don't need to. Also, Defiant Stance lets you walk on mirages for 4 seconds, and if nothing else they will burn their dodges trying to not die from that. You will also need to play this perfectly and be ready to run the moment you dont have the right rotation setup to kill them.

Any condi oriented necromancer. be sure to have a better heal than consume conditions. They will power lock you every time if they are half decent.

I dislike Mirages and Mesmers, but there's workarounds right now. If they want to use staff to be annoying, that's fine by me. There's a bunch of weird, non meta builds that work against that.

Chaotic Interruption needs a nerf, but it isnt as egregious as old chronobunker, prenerf post rework phantasm chrono, or pre nerf Evasive mirror condi mirage. I wouldnt even venture to say it is as overpowered as prenerf rampage. 1200 range instant cast daze is annoying though. That needs to be made a projectile so people can see it, or have its range reduced to where thief's headshot is.

Oh, and the most important thing:

If you find yourself in Chaos Storm and dont have a stunbreak that moves you out of Chaos storm, and get immobed, dont press buttons. wait the immob out and leave.

Thanks for this post. Very insightful. quick questions...I have a soft spot for meme builds so the Condi rev has my interest. I don't have much experience with rev so my question is why is condi rev so bad in PVP or why does it have to be played perfectly? On paper, rev looks like it has a lot of tools? looking a build like this

It's bad in pvp because the entire condi dealing side of it is slow and Mallyx's stunbreak drains your energy significantly. Any interruption chain when you are not channeling shiro can devastate a revenant, and that goes doubly so for Mallyx. It is absolutely not a press-buttons legend.. You will need to avoid all hard CC actively and use your main condi damaging skills (from mace, ideally) when you have a low chance of being interrupted. If you get interrupted you have to abandon all of your damage dealing in order to breakstun, or die. That being said, if you lean properly on Embrace the darkness in mallyx, you can discourage any melee-range interruptions.

There is a very fine balance to play mallyx without being completely shut down, especially because all of its casts can be interrupted and your stunbreak drains your energy. But if you do it right you can burn even warriors running cleanse on swap. Thats why you need to play it perfect vs mes. because they can interrupt anything they want on you in mallyx.

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@"Tayga.3192" said:If I must only talk about hard counters,

I am surprised nobody said the oldest and the best counter there is: Thief.Other than that, all three guardian variants "counter" mesmer. Core and DH can actually kill it while FB can sustain the pressure easily.

Conclusion: If you know how to play thief, it's the best counter. Second is core guard.

Right but for thief to 1v1 mirage on side would take thief out of his primary role - 1upping and decapping. Otherwise, he'd just be a duelist role which then you'd basically be doing your role wrong.

Thief will usually EVENTUALLY win an encounter with mirage sure, because they are the counter to mesmer in general. But Mirage WANTS the thief to fight them 1v1 for an extended amount of time, why? Because then they're not around the map forcing rotations.

This is both a weakness on thief's side against a duelist mes even though they counter them.

Hence why actual duelist specs exist.

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@ZhouX.8742 said:Thief will usually EVENTUALLY win an encounter with mirage sure, because they are the counter to mesmer in general. But Mirage WANTS the thief to fight them 1v1 for an extended amount of time, why? Because then they're not around the map forcing rotations.

This is why I am not super upset about CI right now.CI mirage is a time waster. it cant chase, it cant burst. It can only kill people who choose to fight it, its slow going to points, and it dies hard to +1.That's fine by me. Condi mesmer should have been time waster/AOE slowdown from the beginning.

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@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Condi Revenant running Pulsating pestilence and Mallyx/Glint, but you need to play it perfectly. Use reflect on swap and facet of chaos while channeling Mallyx to push condis out onto clones and mesmer, banish their boons. CI mes has low cleanse and puts out conditions automatically on daze, so they tend to kill themselves if they suddenly find those on them. torment on a mirage is good.

As a condi Rev player, shit hits close to home...If you aren't activating ultra instinct or some shit you might as well afk, and even when you hit everything perfect, save your stunbreaks, dodge with a purpose, managing your condis with finesse, one CC chain can spell death just like that. It's honestly more of a L2P issue and I'm getting pretty good at it now, but even at that there are some mesmers that you know you can barely touch.

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@Alatar.7364 said:

@Chiral.8915 said:Rather than complain about CI mesmer I'd rather focus on what is considered a hard counter to CI Mesmer and more generally since it seems that condi is slowly becoming the meta, what is a a hard anti-condi build? Arcane/water/weaver ele? Hybrid firebrand? Looking forward to the input. Thx!

I think Core Guard
(GS)
is a strong counter to CI, and Mirage in general. Possibly Proto-Holo too, not 100% sure about that.

neither of these.

s/d thief has a pretty decent advantage unless the mes knows not to give the thief room to sword 2 (then the thief is in trouble)the only hard counter to a good CI mirage is another good CI mirage/power mirage, tools holo/rev/blood scourge can also beat it semi reliably (still very difficult)

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@ZhouX.8742 said:

@"Tayga.3192" said:If I must only talk about hard counters,

I am surprised nobody said the oldest and the best counter there is: Thief.Other than that, all three guardian variants "counter" mesmer. Core and DH can actually kill it while FB can sustain the pressure easily.

Conclusion: If you know how to play thief, it's the best counter. Second is core guard.

Right but for thief to 1v1 mirage on side would take thief out of his primary role - 1upping and decapping. Otherwise, he'd just be a duelist role which then you'd basically be doing your role wrong.

Thief will usually EVENTUALLY win an encounter with mirage sure, because they are the counter to mesmer in general. But Mirage WANTS the thief to fight them 1v1 for an extended amount of time, why? Because then they're not around the map forcing rotations.

This is both a weakness on thief's side against a duelist mes even though they counter them.

Hence why actual duelist specs exist.

Very closeminded aproach. you need to adopt to the situation. If you are confident you can clap mirage in 1v1 and take node, there is no reason not to do it, put M on respawn and then roam.

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@"Tayga.3192" said:If I must only talk about hard counters,

I am surprised nobody said the oldest and the best counter there is: Thief.Other than that, all three guardian variants "counter" mesmer. Core and DH can actually kill it while FB can sustain the pressure easily.

Conclusion: If you know how to play thief, it's the best counter. Second is core guard.

Right but for thief to 1v1 mirage on side would take thief out of his primary role - 1upping and decapping. Otherwise, he'd just be a duelist role which then you'd basically be doing your role wrong.

Thief will usually EVENTUALLY win an encounter with mirage sure, because they are the counter to mesmer in general. But Mirage WANTS the thief to fight them 1v1 for an extended amount of time, why? Because then they're not around the map forcing rotations.

This is both a weakness on thief's side against a duelist mes even though they counter them.

Hence why actual duelist specs exist.

Very closeminded aproach. you need to adopt to the situation. If you are confident you can clap mirage in 1v1 and take node, there is no reason not to do it, put M on respawn and then roam.

It's not close minded, you just clearly don't understand roles and that's fine because you're about to learn.

If you actually play thief you would understand that 1v1ing a mirage on point in a duelist role aspect which is lol btw since you need to constantly sword 2 in and out which means you'll eventually lose the point anyway SO not only do you lose the point and let point creep occur and essentially do nothing in the long run, but you spend 1-2 minutes dueling a good mirage on point , maybe even longer... So you're basically throwing away your advantage as a thief (decap / 1up) and using your time on a mirage that a duelist class should be doing in the 1st place.

As a thief, you basically need to be moving the map almost at all times, constantly decapping to force rotations and 1up opponents, that is thief's meta role. Staff build is not as good as Spellbreaker so you basically are just playing a mediocre duelist when you could play another class that can stall mirage on point much better. This isn't to say staff isn't good, it's good but there's just better option but if you enjoy using it, go for it.

If you're talking about 1upping with a side noder already engaged, then I can see your point but no, you're talking about just dueling a mirage on point as a thief.... It's not a question of whether the thief can, of course he can but you're basically wasting time and not doing your role properly.

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@ZhouX.8742 said:If you actually play thief you would understand that 1v1ing a mirage on point in a duelist role aspect which is lol btw since you need to constantly sword 2 in and out which means you'll eventually lose the point anyway SO not only do you lose the point and let point creep occur and essentially do nothing in the long run, but you spend 1-2 minutes dueling a good mirage on point , maybe even longer... So you're basically throwing away your advantage as a thief (decap / 1up) and using your time on a mirage that a duelist class should be doing in the 1st place.

As a thief, you basically need to be moving the map almost at all times, constantly decapping to force rotations and 1up opponents, that is thief's meta role.

That's what happens when people only study theory.Let me say this to you: Putting somebody in opponent team in respawn is basically +1ing your whole team.

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@ZhouX.8742 said:

@"Tayga.3192" said:If I must only talk about hard counters,

I am surprised nobody said the oldest and the best counter there is: Thief.Other than that, all three guardian variants "counter" mesmer. Core and DH can actually kill it while FB can sustain the pressure easily.

Conclusion: If you know how to play thief, it's the best counter. Second is core guard.

Right but for thief to 1v1 mirage on side would take thief out of his primary role - 1upping and decapping. Otherwise, he'd just be a duelist role which then you'd basically be doing your role wrong.

Thief will usually EVENTUALLY win an encounter with mirage sure, because they are the counter to mesmer in general. But Mirage WANTS the thief to fight them 1v1 for an extended amount of time, why? Because then they're not around the map forcing rotations.

This is both a weakness on thief's side against a duelist mes even though they counter them.

Hence why actual duelist specs exist.

Very closeminded aproach. you need to adopt to the situation. If you are confident you can clap mirage in 1v1 and take node, there is no reason not to do it, put M on respawn and then roam.

It's not close minded, you just clearly don't understand roles and that's fine because you're about to learn.

If you actually play thief you would understand that 1v1ing a mirage on point in a duelist role aspect which is lol btw since you need to constantly sword 2 in and out which means you'll eventually lose the point anyway SO not only do you lose the point and let point creep occur and essentially do nothing in the long run, but you spend 1-2 minutes dueling a good mirage on point , maybe even longer... So you're basically throwing away your advantage as a thief (decap / 1up) and using your time on a mirage that a duelist class should be doing in the 1st place.

As a thief, you basically need to be moving the map almost at all times, constantly decapping to force rotations and 1up opponents, that is thief's meta role. Staff build is not as good as Spellbreaker so you basically are just playing a mediocre duelist when you could play another class that can stall mirage on point much better. This isn't to say staff isn't good, it's good but there's just better option but if you enjoy using it, go for it.

If you're talking about 1upping with a side noder already engaged, then I can see your point but no, you're talking about just dueling a mirage on point as a thief.... It's not a question of whether the thief can, of course he can but you're basically wasting time and not doing your role properly.

theory theory theory theory, doesnt work in practice.you assume every mirage is god amongst man capable of holding thief for 2min, if you assume that every opponent is going to play perfectly from the start might as well roll a dice instead of playing pvp. no matter how good someone is, they WILL make mistakes, fish for them, win more.

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Weaver with rune of evasion. This build has so much condi cleanse that there's no way how mirage could kill it, and the same goes for any other condi build. However a decent condi mirage should also notice imidiately that he can't win against that and outrotate the slower ele.

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