Seal area trapping up to 20 targets = at least 1 thief required in a zerg now?

[SoV.5139]

@steki.1478 said:

@SoV.5139 said:

@steki.1478 said:

@SoV.5139 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@SoV.5139 said:

@Justine.6351 said:

@SoV.5139 said:

@Justine.6351 said:

@SoV.5139 said:

@Justine.6351 said:

@Sleepwalker.1398 said:

@steki.1478 said:

While ranger and thief got some kind of buffs this patch, they arent any more viable for squad spot.

Ranger buffs? wait what?It lost it's unblockable......(im not main ranger though)Although after a few fights today, i wonder why Rev "Phase Traversal" has 5secs of unblockable.

Rev unblockables only last for a couple hits and then done. Welcome to balance soulbeasts...

Sure, when we cut that Coalescence of Ruin crit damage in half it will balance out nicely.

Rock out here acting like Paper is OP but Scissors are fine.

Yeah someday when they make cor a skill that can hit a moving target, navigate terrain and not miss simply because of the gaps in its cascade...

I played lb ranger for a couple years. I know how easy it is to play without unblockable buffs let alone with them for an unlimited number of attacks for 3 seconds lol.

Hitting with hammer 3 and 5 on a rev isnt difficult either, and just as mindless as hitting SickEm then using LB2

Im fine with having zero unblockable in the entire game.

People on these boards while all too willing to ignore one broken thing, or even worse defending it while demanding nerfs to another broken thing, are simply Rock QQing that Paper is OP but claiming Scissors is fine.

Never called ranger unblockable buffs op. That was all in your head. And sure it's not hard to land 3 and 5 when you are dumping aoe on a zerg. But if anyone else eats those it's because they are potatoes. We arnt talking a glowy charge up animation, it's a huge kitten hammer over your head or the revenant leaping off the ground. Even with the added red ring people still eat hammer 5, it's sad really.

Mincing words at this point. You did say you didnt need it, which is the same thing Im saying.

This megacrit rev hammer build is another meme build just like the LB2 soulbeast build was, but its actually preferred in zergs, and people defending that while demanding ranger nerfs are logically contradicting themselves.

Justifying it by saying its easy to dodge or avoid is laughable, since its also easy to hit the dodge key twice when ranger LB2 is channeling, yet the forums light up like christmas to get that nerfed.

Keep in mind Im not QQing over the nerf, I just want equally unbalanced things also nerfed. Instead it gets proxy buffed and they remove the evade from druid staff 3 and call it a "balance patch."

Help me understand....

Rev hammer isn’t 2 unblocables for the last 5 seconds, with malicious reprisal???Wich has a icd of 20sec.

Even if has no limit of atacks wich should have, every unblockable should have a limit for its time, hammer fire ratio is much slower than ranger stuff and way more telegraphed.

Something that hits for 20K crit one time only needs one charge of unblockable. The reason people QQ about LB2 is because they get hit with the full channel, all unblockable, and apparently going to the forum and demanding nerfs is easier than hitting a dodge key after realizing that they were being LB2 channeled.

My actual position is if they are going to nerf one meme build they all need to be nerfed. Im also not sure how many times I have to say they could eliminate unblockable from the entire game and Id be fine with it, before people stop including it in their justification

You guys will learn this lesson soon enough, as all of these "presumably unskilled" folks who were channeling people who couldnt hit a dodge key down on LB2 retreat to the next meme build and you find yourselves getting one shot hammered, or one shot mauled from stealth, or single bursted guardian trapped etc....

TL;DR: People declaring victory on this as if any one nerf stops it from happening are hilarious.

I've never been hit by 20k from anything on rev's hammer and I play glass ele most of the time.

CoR also requires open field and can be countered by side stepping or standing on slightly elevated terrain. Rapid fire can hit you with no problem while ranger is sitting inside objective or on top of the cliff or whichever safe spot you find.

Still trying to justify one meme build while demanding another be nerfed is Rock claiming Paper is OP but Scissors are fine.

That argument is pretty bad considering that both of them melt ele with a single skill or 2 autos. There's no scissors when you play glass ele, but every pebble breaks your glass.

The argument isnt whats bad there, as thats my entire point. (your ele is scissors and you claim it doesnt need a nerf and is not OP) People playing other glass meme builds want their hard counters nerfed. They cleverly (or so they think) couch this request in terms of the build they want nerfed being a no skill build while their meme build deserves to be left alone because it cant be played by those with potatoes for hands, even though it is just as cheese.

If you are playing the lowest HP total, with the lowest armor total, adding no health or armor, then yes, you will be easily downed from time to time. I bet the complaining stops when the player playing said build is the one doing the one shotting, and starts back up after they are the one being one shot.

TL;DR: People playing high risk high reward builds want the risk lowered. This should be done by hitting a dodge key twice rather than by 60WPMing out post after post about how their hard counters need to be nerfed. Even with that being said, Im still fine with the nerfs, if all meme builds get nerfed, rather than just the hard counters to the forum warriors builds.

[Justine.6351]

@SoV.5139 said:

@steki.1478 said:

@SoV.5139 said:

@steki.1478 said:

@SoV.5139 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@SoV.5139 said:

@Justine.6351 said:

@SoV.5139 said:

@Justine.6351 said:

@SoV.5139 said:

@Justine.6351 said:

@Sleepwalker.1398 said:

@steki.1478 said:

While ranger and thief got some kind of buffs this patch, they arent any more viable for squad spot.

Ranger buffs? wait what?It lost it's unblockable......(im not main ranger though)Although after a few fights today, i wonder why Rev "Phase Traversal" has 5secs of unblockable.

Rev unblockables only last for a couple hits and then done. Welcome to balance soulbeasts...

Sure, when we cut that Coalescence of Ruin crit damage in half it will balance out nicely.

Rock out here acting like Paper is OP but Scissors are fine.

Yeah someday when they make cor a skill that can hit a moving target, navigate terrain and not miss simply because of the gaps in its cascade...

I played lb ranger for a couple years. I know how easy it is to play without unblockable buffs let alone with them for an unlimited number of attacks for 3 seconds lol.

Hitting with hammer 3 and 5 on a rev isnt difficult either, and just as mindless as hitting SickEm then using LB2

Im fine with having zero unblockable in the entire game.

People on these boards while all too willing to ignore one broken thing, or even worse defending it while demanding nerfs to another broken thing, are simply Rock QQing that Paper is OP but claiming Scissors is fine.

Never called ranger unblockable buffs op. That was all in your head. And sure it's not hard to land 3 and 5 when you are dumping aoe on a zerg. But if anyone else eats those it's because they are potatoes. We arnt talking a glowy charge up animation, it's a huge kitten hammer over your head or the revenant leaping off the ground. Even with the added red ring people still eat hammer 5, it's sad really.

Mincing words at this point. You did say you didnt need it, which is the same thing Im saying.

This megacrit rev hammer build is another meme build just like the LB2 soulbeast build was, but its actually preferred in zergs, and people defending that while demanding ranger nerfs are logically contradicting themselves.

Justifying it by saying its easy to dodge or avoid is laughable, since its also easy to hit the dodge key twice when ranger LB2 is channeling, yet the forums light up like christmas to get that nerfed.

Keep in mind Im not QQing over the nerf, I just want equally unbalanced things also nerfed. Instead it gets proxy buffed and they remove the evade from druid staff 3 and call it a "balance patch."

Help me understand....

Rev hammer isn’t 2 unblocables for the last 5 seconds, with malicious reprisal???Wich has a icd of 20sec.

Even if has no limit of atacks wich should have, every unblockable should have a limit for its time, hammer fire ratio is much slower than ranger stuff and way more telegraphed.

Something that hits for 20K crit one time only needs one charge of unblockable. The reason people QQ about LB2 is because they get hit with the full channel, all unblockable, and apparently going to the forum and demanding nerfs is easier than hitting a dodge key after realizing that they were being LB2 channeled.

My actual position is if they are going to nerf one meme build they all need to be nerfed. Im also not sure how many times I have to say they could eliminate unblockable from the entire game and Id be fine with it, before people stop including it in their justification

You guys will learn this lesson soon enough, as all of these "presumably unskilled" folks who were channeling people who couldnt hit a dodge key down on LB2 retreat to the next meme build and you find yourselves getting one shot hammered, or one shot mauled from stealth, or single bursted guardian trapped etc....

TL;DR: People declaring victory on this as if any one nerf stops it from happening are hilarious.

I've never been hit by 20k from anything on rev's hammer and I play glass ele most of the time.

CoR also requires open field and can be countered by side stepping or standing on slightly elevated terrain. Rapid fire can hit you with no problem while ranger is sitting inside objective or on top of the cliff or whichever safe spot you find.

Still trying to justify one meme build while demanding another be nerfed is Rock claiming Paper is OP but Scissors are fine.

That argument is pretty bad considering that both of them melt ele with a single skill or 2 autos. There's no scissors when you play glass ele, but every pebble breaks your glass.

The argument isnt whats bad there, as thats my entire point. (your ele is scissors and you claim it doesnt need a nerf and is not OP) People playing other glass meme builds want their hard counters nerfed. They cleverly (or so they think) couch this request in terms of the build they want nerfed being a no skill build while their meme build deserves to be left alone because it cant be played by those with potatoes for hands, even though it is just as cheese.

If you are playing the lowest HP total, with the lowest armor total, adding no health or armor, then yes, you will be easily downed from time to time. I bet the complaining stops when the player playing said build is the one doing the one shotting, and starts back up after they are the one being one shot.

TL;DR: People playing high risk high reward builds want the risk lowered. This should be done by hitting a dodge key twice rather than by 60WPMing out post after post about how their hard counters need to be nerfed. Even with that being said, Im still fine with the nerfs, if all meme builds get nerfed, rather than just the hard counters to the forum warriors builds.

on and on he goes,where he ends,nobody knows.

[steki.1478]

@SoV.5139 said:

@steki.1478 said:

@SoV.5139 said:

@steki.1478 said:

@SoV.5139 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@SoV.5139 said:

@Justine.6351 said:

@SoV.5139 said:

@Justine.6351 said:

@SoV.5139 said:

@Justine.6351 said:

@Sleepwalker.1398 said:

@steki.1478 said:

While ranger and thief got some kind of buffs this patch, they arent any more viable for squad spot.

Ranger buffs? wait what?It lost it's unblockable......(im not main ranger though)Although after a few fights today, i wonder why Rev "Phase Traversal" has 5secs of unblockable.

Rev unblockables only last for a couple hits and then done. Welcome to balance soulbeasts...

Sure, when we cut that Coalescence of Ruin crit damage in half it will balance out nicely.

Rock out here acting like Paper is OP but Scissors are fine.

Yeah someday when they make cor a skill that can hit a moving target, navigate terrain and not miss simply because of the gaps in its cascade...

I played lb ranger for a couple years. I know how easy it is to play without unblockable buffs let alone with them for an unlimited number of attacks for 3 seconds lol.

Hitting with hammer 3 and 5 on a rev isnt difficult either, and just as mindless as hitting SickEm then using LB2

Im fine with having zero unblockable in the entire game.

People on these boards while all too willing to ignore one broken thing, or even worse defending it while demanding nerfs to another broken thing, are simply Rock QQing that Paper is OP but claiming Scissors is fine.

Never called ranger unblockable buffs op. That was all in your head. And sure it's not hard to land 3 and 5 when you are dumping aoe on a zerg. But if anyone else eats those it's because they are potatoes. We arnt talking a glowy charge up animation, it's a huge kitten hammer over your head or the revenant leaping off the ground. Even with the added red ring people still eat hammer 5, it's sad really.

Mincing words at this point. You did say you didnt need it, which is the same thing Im saying.

This megacrit rev hammer build is another meme build just like the LB2 soulbeast build was, but its actually preferred in zergs, and people defending that while demanding ranger nerfs are logically contradicting themselves.

Justifying it by saying its easy to dodge or avoid is laughable, since its also easy to hit the dodge key twice when ranger LB2 is channeling, yet the forums light up like christmas to get that nerfed.

Keep in mind Im not QQing over the nerf, I just want equally unbalanced things also nerfed. Instead it gets proxy buffed and they remove the evade from druid staff 3 and call it a "balance patch."

Help me understand....

Rev hammer isn’t 2 unblocables for the last 5 seconds, with malicious reprisal???Wich has a icd of 20sec.

Even if has no limit of atacks wich should have, every unblockable should have a limit for its time, hammer fire ratio is much slower than ranger stuff and way more telegraphed.

Something that hits for 20K crit one time only needs one charge of unblockable. The reason people QQ about LB2 is because they get hit with the full channel, all unblockable, and apparently going to the forum and demanding nerfs is easier than hitting a dodge key after realizing that they were being LB2 channeled.

My actual position is if they are going to nerf one meme build they all need to be nerfed. Im also not sure how many times I have to say they could eliminate unblockable from the entire game and Id be fine with it, before people stop including it in their justification

You guys will learn this lesson soon enough, as all of these "presumably unskilled" folks who were channeling people who couldnt hit a dodge key down on LB2 retreat to the next meme build and you find yourselves getting one shot hammered, or one shot mauled from stealth, or single bursted guardian trapped etc....

TL;DR: People declaring victory on this as if any one nerf stops it from happening are hilarious.

I've never been hit by 20k from anything on rev's hammer and I play glass ele most of the time.

CoR also requires open field and can be countered by side stepping or standing on slightly elevated terrain. Rapid fire can hit you with no problem while ranger is sitting inside objective or on top of the cliff or whichever safe spot you find.

Still trying to justify one meme build while demanding another be nerfed is Rock claiming Paper is OP but Scissors are fine.

That argument is pretty bad considering that both of them melt ele with a single skill or 2 autos. There's no scissors when you play glass ele, but every pebble breaks your glass.

The argument isnt whats bad there, as thats my entire point. (your ele is scissors and you claim it doesnt need a nerf and is not OP) People playing other glass meme builds want their hard counters nerfed. They cleverly (or so they think) couch this request in terms of the build they want nerfed being a no skill build while their meme build deserves to be left alone because it cant be played by those with potatoes for hands, even though it is just as cheese.

If you are playing the lowest HP total, with the lowest armor total, adding no health or armor, then yes, you will be easily downed from time to time. I bet the complaining stops when the player playing said build is the one doing the one shotting, and starts back up after they are the one being one shot.

TL;DR: People playing high risk high reward builds want the risk lowered. This should be done by hitting a dodge key twice rather than by 60WPMing out post after post about how their hard counters need to be nerfed. Even with that being said, Im still fine with the nerfs, if all meme builds get nerfed, rather than just the hard counters to the forum warriors builds.

On the contrary. I don't want risk lowered, I want reward improved because it's certainly not as high as on meta zerg builds and "meta" roaming ones, especially if you consider their low effort.

Counters do and should exist, but I don't need to be countered by a certain build to see that it's overtuned. Glass ele has a lot of counters, but I'm not saying they are all too op and need nerf. It's soulbeast players who were complaining about dueling builds because those counter their pew pew.

[SoV.5139]

@steki.1478 said:

@SoV.5139 said:

@steki.1478 said:

@SoV.5139 said:

@steki.1478 said:

@SoV.5139 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@SoV.5139 said:

@Justine.6351 said:

@SoV.5139 said:

@Justine.6351 said:

@SoV.5139 said:

@Justine.6351 said:

@Sleepwalker.1398 said:

@steki.1478 said:

While ranger and thief got some kind of buffs this patch, they arent any more viable for squad spot.

Ranger buffs? wait what?It lost it's unblockable......(im not main ranger though)Although after a few fights today, i wonder why Rev "Phase Traversal" has 5secs of unblockable.

Rev unblockables only last for a couple hits and then done. Welcome to balance soulbeasts...

Sure, when we cut that Coalescence of Ruin crit damage in half it will balance out nicely.

Rock out here acting like Paper is OP but Scissors are fine.

Yeah someday when they make cor a skill that can hit a moving target, navigate terrain and not miss simply because of the gaps in its cascade...

I played lb ranger for a couple years. I know how easy it is to play without unblockable buffs let alone with them for an unlimited number of attacks for 3 seconds lol.

Hitting with hammer 3 and 5 on a rev isnt difficult either, and just as mindless as hitting SickEm then using LB2

Im fine with having zero unblockable in the entire game.

People on these boards while all too willing to ignore one broken thing, or even worse defending it while demanding nerfs to another broken thing, are simply Rock QQing that Paper is OP but claiming Scissors is fine.

Never called ranger unblockable buffs op. That was all in your head. And sure it's not hard to land 3 and 5 when you are dumping aoe on a zerg. But if anyone else eats those it's because they are potatoes. We arnt talking a glowy charge up animation, it's a huge kitten hammer over your head or the revenant leaping off the ground. Even with the added red ring people still eat hammer 5, it's sad really.

Mincing words at this point. You did say you didnt need it, which is the same thing Im saying.

This megacrit rev hammer build is another meme build just like the LB2 soulbeast build was, but its actually preferred in zergs, and people defending that while demanding ranger nerfs are logically contradicting themselves.

Justifying it by saying its easy to dodge or avoid is laughable, since its also easy to hit the dodge key twice when ranger LB2 is channeling, yet the forums light up like christmas to get that nerfed.

Keep in mind Im not QQing over the nerf, I just want equally unbalanced things also nerfed. Instead it gets proxy buffed and they remove the evade from druid staff 3 and call it a "balance patch."

Help me understand....

Rev hammer isn’t 2 unblocables for the last 5 seconds, with malicious reprisal???Wich has a icd of 20sec.

Even if has no limit of atacks wich should have, every unblockable should have a limit for its time, hammer fire ratio is much slower than ranger stuff and way more telegraphed.

Something that hits for 20K crit one time only needs one charge of unblockable. The reason people QQ about LB2 is because they get hit with the full channel, all unblockable, and apparently going to the forum and demanding nerfs is easier than hitting a dodge key after realizing that they were being LB2 channeled.

My actual position is if they are going to nerf one meme build they all need to be nerfed. Im also not sure how many times I have to say they could eliminate unblockable from the entire game and Id be fine with it, before people stop including it in their justification

You guys will learn this lesson soon enough, as all of these "presumably unskilled" folks who were channeling people who couldnt hit a dodge key down on LB2 retreat to the next meme build and you find yourselves getting one shot hammered, or one shot mauled from stealth, or single bursted guardian trapped etc....

TL;DR: People declaring victory on this as if any one nerf stops it from happening are hilarious.

I've never been hit by 20k from anything on rev's hammer and I play glass ele most of the time.

CoR also requires open field and can be countered by side stepping or standing on slightly elevated terrain. Rapid fire can hit you with no problem while ranger is sitting inside objective or on top of the cliff or whichever safe spot you find.

Still trying to justify one meme build while demanding another be nerfed is Rock claiming Paper is OP but Scissors are fine.

That argument is pretty bad considering that both of them melt ele with a single skill or 2 autos. There's no scissors when you play glass ele, but every pebble breaks your glass.

The argument isnt whats bad there, as thats my entire point. (your ele is scissors and you claim it doesnt need a nerf and is not OP) People playing other glass meme builds want their hard counters nerfed. They cleverly (or so they think) couch this request in terms of the build they want nerfed being a no skill build while their meme build deserves to be left alone because it cant be played by those with potatoes for hands, even though it is just as cheese.

If you are playing the lowest HP total, with the lowest armor total, adding no health or armor, then yes, you will be easily downed from time to time. I bet the complaining stops when the player playing said build is the one doing the one shotting, and starts back up after they are the one being one shot.

TL;DR: People playing high risk high reward builds want the risk lowered. This should be done by hitting a dodge key twice rather than by 60WPMing out post after post about how their hard counters need to be nerfed. Even with that being said, Im still fine with the nerfs, if all meme builds get nerfed, rather than just the hard counters to the forum warriors builds.

On the contrary. I don't want risk lowered, I want reward improved because it's certainly not as high as on meta zerg builds and "meta" roaming ones, especially if you consider their low effort.

Counters do and should exist, but I don't need to be countered by a certain build to see that it's overtuned. Glass ele has a lot of counters, but I'm not saying they are all too op and need nerf. It's soulbeast players who were complaining about dueling builds because those counter their pew pew.

You are doing precisely and exactly what I said you were doing - couching the agenda of getting this one thing nerfed in terms of generic game balance. You were the one who brought glass ele into this picture as a reply to one of my posts which had zero to do with glass ele, so yes, you indeed are asking for one of your hard counters to be nerfed.

Im fine with dueling builds countering one trick pony DPS bursters. Thats how this game works. Apparently some would rather counter it with forum DPS though, but then dont want their own meme builds nerfed due to the same type of feedback. My position is if they are going to nerf a meme build they should nerf all meme builds, and not just the one that counters.

But since you brought it up I'll address it. As for your glass ele - they have more than enough evades where the first three LB2 bursts should be doing zero or near zero DPS. If you didnt build any defense util into a kit you already didnt build any toughness into, then being sneezed on will down the character. The vast majority of these SicEm LB2 bursters dont have another trick up their sleeve, so the smart ones usually build in a full escape kit in for when it didnt work. The not so smart get handedly defeated when fully ramped up LB2 fails to down their target.

TL;DR: Its not SicEm SB thats hard countering your glass ele, unless youre not hitting any evades at all whatsoever. Its likely a more balanced LB build who can hang around a bit until your evades run out.

[Oogabooga.3812]

My guildies and I tested the preparations. They aren't good enough to merit building a team around them.

More specifically with Seal Area - even if you lure people into it and activate it, if someone doesn't have stability, they can teleport to the outside after taking a brief knockdown. Of course, with stability, they walk through after losing 1 stack. The bubble is quite large, so they aren't without kiting area within.

The damaging ones don't do enough damage. Pitfall knocks down 3 times, but only takes off one stack of stability. 1000 Needles is good against movement, but lacking in condition damage, even if traited with all the poisons.

The only one worth using for utility is Shadow Portal but has a limit of 5 people.

All preparations have an animation that can be seen by the enemy, even if placed in stealth.

Only if you know exactly where the enemy is going to be (choke points, gates, wall) and communicate with your Zerg as to when you are activating your preparation can you make it slightly effective.

[steki.1478]

@SoV.5139 said:You are doing precisely and exactly what I said you were doing - couching the agenda of getting this one thing nerfed in terms of generic game balance. You were the one who brought glass ele into this picture as a reply to one of my posts which had zero to do with glass ele, so yes, you indeed are asking for one of your hard counters to be nerfed.

Im fine with dueling builds countering one trick pony DPS bursters. Thats how this game works. Apparently some would rather counter it with forum DPS though, but then dont want their own meme builds nerfed due to the same type of feedback. My position is if they are going to nerf a meme build they should nerf all meme builds, and not just the one that counters.

But since you brought it up I'll address it. As for your glass ele - they have more than enough evades where the first three LB2 bursts should be doing zero or near zero DPS. If you didnt build any defense util into a kit you already didnt build any toughness into, then being sneezed on will down the character. The vast majority of these SicEm LB2 bursters dont have another trick up their sleeve, so the smart ones usually build in a full escape kit in for when it didnt work. The not so smart get handedly defeated when fully ramped up LB2 fails to down their target.

TL;DR: Its not SicEm SB thats hard countering your glass ele, unless youre not hitting any evades at all whatsoever. Its likely a more balanced LB build who can hang around a bit until your evades run out.

I never said that I had problems with avoiding LB2 though. Just because one build has 2 extra evades, doesnt mean that other build should do 30k+ damage with one combo. Even if I dodge his combo, why am I not able to hit him back for 30k, but only 15k?

If what you're saying was true I'd be complaining about every single build because they can all one shot me whenever I'm not paying attention to them, even if it's some irrelevant build like gs reaper or condi rev. I'm just saying that no build should have extremely high burst that goes through minstrel stats and protection. Sure you can evade it, but attacker can also wait for you to waste your defenses on something else and at that point only a few, broken builds can get you down.

Ask yourself why everyone is complaining about soulbeast or gs mesmer, but not about glass eles. I'll tell you why, it's because damage, range and escape options are half of what those two have and do (or could do before this patch) and that has nothing to do with one countering another, it's just facts. If dueling builds are supposed to counter one-shot cheese builds then make all cheese builds equally broken. That was not the case before this patch and it's still not the case.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@steki.1478 said:

@SoV.5139 said:You are doing precisely and exactly what I said you were doing - couching the agenda of getting this one thing nerfed in terms of generic game balance. You were the one who brought glass ele into this picture as a reply to one of my posts which had zero to do with glass ele, so yes, you indeed are asking for one of your hard counters to be nerfed.

Im fine with dueling builds countering one trick pony DPS bursters. Thats how this game works. Apparently some would rather counter it with forum DPS though, but then dont want their own meme builds nerfed due to the same type of feedback. My position is if they are going to nerf a meme build they should nerf all meme builds, and not just the one that counters.

But since you brought it up I'll address it. As for your glass ele - they have more than enough evades where the first three LB2 bursts should be doing zero or near zero DPS. If you didnt build any defense util into a kit you already didnt build any toughness into, then being sneezed on will down the character. The vast majority of these SicEm LB2 bursters dont have another trick up their sleeve, so the smart ones usually build in a full escape kit in for when it didnt work. The not so smart get handedly defeated when fully ramped up LB2 fails to down their target.

TL;DR: Its not SicEm SB thats hard countering your glass ele, unless youre not hitting any evades at all whatsoever. Its likely a more balanced LB build who can hang around a bit until your evades run out.

I never said that I had problems with avoiding LB2 though. Just because one build has 2 extra evades, doesnt mean that other build should do 30k+ damage with one combo. Even if I dodge his combo, why am I not able to hit him back for 30k, but only 15k?

If what you're saying was true I'd be complaining about every single build because they can all one shot me whenever I'm not paying attention to them, even if it's some irrelevant build like gs reaper or condi rev. I'm just saying that no build should have extremely high burst that goes through minstrel stats and protection. Sure you can evade it, but attacker can also wait for you to waste your defenses on something else and at that point only a few, broken builds can get you down.

Ask yourself why everyone is complaining about soulbeast or gs mesmer, but not about glass eles. I'll tell you why, it's because damage, range and escape options are half of what those two have and do (or could do before this patch) and that has nothing to do with one countering another, it's just facts. If dueling builds are supposed to counter one-shot cheese builds then make all cheese builds equally broken. That was not the case before this patch and it's still not the case.

With new changes they'll prob be more complaints about fire weaver than slb. I'm betting spb, holo, mirage and fire weaver will be the problem children for next few months lol

[SoV.5139]

@steki.1478 said:

@SoV.5139 said:You are doing precisely and exactly what I said you were doing - couching the agenda of getting this one thing nerfed in terms of generic game balance. You were the one who brought glass ele into this picture as a reply to one of my posts which had zero to do with glass ele, so yes, you indeed are asking for one of your hard counters to be nerfed.

Im fine with dueling builds countering one trick pony DPS bursters. Thats how this game works. Apparently some would rather counter it with forum DPS though, but then dont want their own meme builds nerfed due to the same type of feedback. My position is if they are going to nerf a meme build they should nerf all meme builds, and not just the one that counters.

But since you brought it up I'll address it. As for your glass ele - they have more than enough evades where the first three LB2 bursts should be doing zero or near zero DPS. If you didnt build any defense util into a kit you already didnt build any toughness into, then being sneezed on will down the character. The vast majority of these SicEm LB2 bursters dont have another trick up their sleeve, so the smart ones usually build in a full escape kit in for when it didnt work. The not so smart get handedly defeated when fully ramped up LB2 fails to down their target.

TL;DR: Its not SicEm SB thats hard countering your glass ele, unless youre not hitting any evades at all whatsoever. Its likely a more balanced LB build who can hang around a bit until your evades run out.

I never said that I had problems with avoiding LB2 though. Just because one build has 2 extra evades, doesnt mean that other build should do 30k+ damage with one combo. Even if I dodge his combo, why am I not able to hit him back for 30k, but only 15k?

If what you're saying was true I'd be complaining about every single build because they can all one shot me whenever I'm not paying attention to them, even if it's some irrelevant build like gs reaper or condi rev. I'm just saying that no build should have extremely high burst that goes through minstrel stats and protection. Sure you can evade it, but attacker can also wait for you to waste your defenses on something else and at that point only a few, broken builds can get you down.

Ask yourself why everyone is complaining about soulbeast or gs mesmer, but not about glass eles. I'll tell you why, it's because damage, range and escape options are half of what those two have and do (or could do before this patch) and that has nothing to do with one countering another, it's just facts. If dueling builds are supposed to counter one-shot cheese builds then make all cheese builds equally broken. That was not the case before this patch and it's still not the case.

When someone is that glass you can hit them for 15K and they will either blow a full on escape kit or die to the next hit.

SB isnt hitting you for 30K in one shot with LB2 - they need to channel it, and as they do you can begin the evade even after you took a few shots. I notice no one is complaining about the real one shot SB, which is the maul-from-stealth build. People seem to be fixated on the range rather than the damage.

I disagree with your final statement. Weaver is a pretty solid counter especially after this patch. Might take the meme gang a week or two to get caught up to understanding this, but it wont surprise me if people are complaining about it in short order. These meme build players dont all graduate to a nice bruiser build when their current toy gets nerfed. They jump on the new meme build - something this patch lifted up.

[SoV.5139]

@Justine.6351 said:

@SoV.5139 said:

@steki.1478 said:

@SoV.5139 said:

@steki.1478 said:

@SoV.5139 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@SoV.5139 said:

@Justine.6351 said:

@SoV.5139 said:

@Justine.6351 said:

@SoV.5139 said:

@Justine.6351 said:

@Sleepwalker.1398 said:

@steki.1478 said:

While ranger and thief got some kind of buffs this patch, they arent any more viable for squad spot.

Ranger buffs? wait what?It lost it's unblockable......(im not main ranger though)Although after a few fights today, i wonder why Rev "Phase Traversal" has 5secs of unblockable.

Rev unblockables only last for a couple hits and then done. Welcome to balance soulbeasts...

Sure, when we cut that Coalescence of Ruin crit damage in half it will balance out nicely.

Rock out here acting like Paper is OP but Scissors are fine.

Yeah someday when they make cor a skill that can hit a moving target, navigate terrain and not miss simply because of the gaps in its cascade...

I played lb ranger for a couple years. I know how easy it is to play without unblockable buffs let alone with them for an unlimited number of attacks for 3 seconds lol.

Hitting with hammer 3 and 5 on a rev isnt difficult either, and just as mindless as hitting SickEm then using LB2

Im fine with having zero unblockable in the entire game.

People on these boards while all too willing to ignore one broken thing, or even worse defending it while demanding nerfs to another broken thing, are simply Rock QQing that Paper is OP but claiming Scissors is fine.

Never called ranger unblockable buffs op. That was all in your head. And sure it's not hard to land 3 and 5 when you are dumping aoe on a zerg. But if anyone else eats those it's because they are potatoes. We arnt talking a glowy charge up animation, it's a huge kitten hammer over your head or the revenant leaping off the ground. Even with the added red ring people still eat hammer 5, it's sad really.

Mincing words at this point. You did say you didnt need it, which is the same thing Im saying.

This megacrit rev hammer build is another meme build just like the LB2 soulbeast build was, but its actually preferred in zergs, and people defending that while demanding ranger nerfs are logically contradicting themselves.

Justifying it by saying its easy to dodge or avoid is laughable, since its also easy to hit the dodge key twice when ranger LB2 is channeling, yet the forums light up like christmas to get that nerfed.

Keep in mind Im not QQing over the nerf, I just want equally unbalanced things also nerfed. Instead it gets proxy buffed and they remove the evade from druid staff 3 and call it a "balance patch."

Help me understand....

Rev hammer isn’t 2 unblocables for the last 5 seconds, with malicious reprisal???Wich has a icd of 20sec.

Even if has no limit of atacks wich should have, every unblockable should have a limit for its time, hammer fire ratio is much slower than ranger stuff and way more telegraphed.

Something that hits for 20K crit one time only needs one charge of unblockable. The reason people QQ about LB2 is because they get hit with the full channel, all unblockable, and apparently going to the forum and demanding nerfs is easier than hitting a dodge key after realizing that they were being LB2 channeled.

My actual position is if they are going to nerf one meme build they all need to be nerfed. Im also not sure how many times I have to say they could eliminate unblockable from the entire game and Id be fine with it, before people stop including it in their justification

You guys will learn this lesson soon enough, as all of these "presumably unskilled" folks who were channeling people who couldnt hit a dodge key down on LB2 retreat to the next meme build and you find yourselves getting one shot hammered, or one shot mauled from stealth, or single bursted guardian trapped etc....

TL;DR: People declaring victory on this as if any one nerf stops it from happening are hilarious.

I've never been hit by 20k from anything on rev's hammer and I play glass ele most of the time.

CoR also requires open field and can be countered by side stepping or standing on slightly elevated terrain. Rapid fire can hit you with no problem while ranger is sitting inside objective or on top of the cliff or whichever safe spot you find.

Still trying to justify one meme build while demanding another be nerfed is Rock claiming Paper is OP but Scissors are fine.

That argument is pretty bad considering that both of them melt ele with a single skill or 2 autos. There's no scissors when you play glass ele, but every pebble breaks your glass.

The argument isnt whats bad there, as thats my entire point. (your ele is scissors and you claim it doesnt need a nerf and is not OP) People playing other glass meme builds want their hard counters nerfed. They cleverly (or so they think) couch this request in terms of the build they want nerfed being a no skill build while their meme build deserves to be left alone because it cant be played by those with potatoes for hands, even though it is just as cheese.

If you are playing the lowest HP total, with the lowest armor total, adding no health or armor, then yes, you will be easily downed from time to time. I bet the complaining stops when the player playing said build is the one doing the one shotting, and starts back up after they are the one being one shot.

TL;DR: People playing high risk high reward builds want the risk lowered. This should be done by hitting a dodge key twice rather than by 60WPMing out post after post about how their hard counters need to be nerfed. Even with that being said, Im still fine with the nerfs, if all meme builds get nerfed, rather than just the hard counters to the forum warriors builds.

on and on he goes,where he ends,nobody knows.

Cant hit a dodge key twice, but can 90WPM-out a "nerf the thing that counters me" post.

Silver level in game PVPer. Diamond level forum warrior.

[Turkeyspit.3965]

@Sleepwalker.1398 said:Those couple hits is what kills the opponents without much effort or within few seconds.You have unblockable, you have quickness and a 25% damage increase all in 1 skill.Try it...jump in with Phase Traversal then Staff 5 then Sword 4.

30 + 20 + 15. Math says it is impossible.

@"Justine.6351" said:Just another zergling crying "CoR does 20k damage every FOUR SECONDS! NEED NURF OR PIRATE SHIP META FOREVER!".

Exactly. Nobody rounds a corner, bumps into a Rev, and instantly eats a 16K CoR, not unless the was already in the midst of combat. It takes a bit of ramp up time to hit those numbers. But a fight against two opponents just entering combat when neither have any conditions (like vuln) on them, you are not going to see those numbers.

Compare that to a SB that just has to press a series of buttons in quick succession in order to achieve maximum burst.

That said, once a SB has unloaded their burst, that's it, while a Rev who maintains a rotation with might stacks, etc, can rip out those CoR against sufficiently debuffed opponents, especially during Burst of Strength windows. That is why Rev is taken for group fights and why Ranger is relegated to single target sniping.

[steki.1478]

@"SoV.5139" said:When someone is that glass you can hit them for 15K and they will either blow a full on escape kit or die to the next hit.

Except when your full combo deals 15k you no longer have skills to finish off your target with. But when you deal 30k then they can avoid half of it and still lose tons of health. Sounds reasonable.

SB isnt hitting you for 30K in one shot with LB2 - they need to channel it, and as they do you can begin the evade even after you took a few shots.

Quickness is a thing, so is stealth and knockback. But as I said, it's not about avoiding damage, it's about being onesot even when you avoid most of it because the burst is too high. Also who says that other classes dont need to channel their stuff? Or cast 5 different damaging skills in order to achieve high damage? Someone even posted a video in other thread where they used a mount dodge and still got downed by rapid fire with 2-3 last shots saying "invuln" because of downed state. Have you tried doing that on ele or basically anyone else? You'd be lucky if the target gets dismounted to begin with, yet fully down it.

I disagree with your final statement. Weaver is a pretty solid counter especially after this patch.

It has half the range so it has to use it's mobility (aka main escape) to get a chance to get a chance to kill the ranger because it doesnt have as high damage output. Ranger can also dodge its burst or use stone signet to soak full burst or leap out of ele's range. How's that a counter? Not to mention that ranger's burst has half cooldown of ele's burst.

Again, I'm not saying I'm struggling with avoiding rapid fire or having hard time killing rangers, but saying that glass ele is counter to glass ranger and that they belong in same basket when it comes to balance is very delusional.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@steki.1478 said:

@"SoV.5139" said:When someone is that glass you can hit them for 15K and they will either blow a full on escape kit or die to the next hit.

Except when your full combo deals 15k you no longer have skills to finish off your target with. But when you deal 30k then they can avoid half of it and still lose tons of health. Sounds reasonable.

SB isnt hitting you for 30K in one shot with LB2 - they need to channel it, and as they do you can begin the evade even after you took a few shots.

Quickness is a thing, so is stealth and knockback. But as I said, it's not about avoiding damage, it's about being onesot even when you avoid most of it because the burst is too high. Also who says that other classes dont need to channel their stuff? Or cast 5 different damaging skills in order to achieve high damage? Someone even posted a video in other thread where they used a mount dodge and still got downed by rapid fire with 2-3 last shots saying "invuln" because of downed state. Have you tried doing that on ele or basically anyone else? You'd be lucky if the target gets dismounted to begin with, yet fully down it.

I disagree with your final statement. Weaver is a pretty solid counter especially after this patch.

It has half the range so it has to use it's mobility (aka main escape) to get a chance to

get a chance

to kill the ranger because it doesnt have as high damage output. Ranger can also dodge its burst or use stone signet to soak full burst or leap out of ele's range. How's that a counter? Not to mention that ranger's burst has half cooldown of ele's burst.

Again, I'm not saying I'm struggling with avoiding rapid fire or having hard time killing rangers, but saying that glass ele is counter to glass ranger and that they belong in same basket when it comes to balance is very delusional.

A good fire weaver will 100-0 a players as fast as a slb but not from the safe range that a slb can but has far more survivability when focused compared to sb even if both are spec'd for pure damage atleast that's been my experience while messing around with both.

[SoV.5139]

@steki.1478 said:

@"SoV.5139" said:When someone is that glass you can hit them for 15K and they will either blow a full on escape kit or die to the next hit.

Except when your full combo deals 15k you no longer have skills to finish off your target with. But when you deal 30k then they can avoid half of it and still lose tons of health. Sounds reasonable.

SB isnt hitting you for 30K in one shot with LB2 - they need to channel it, and as they do you can begin the evade even after you took a few shots.

Quickness is a thing, so is stealth and knockback. But as I said, it's not about avoiding damage, it's about being onesot even when you avoid most of it because the burst is too high. Also who says that other classes dont need to channel their stuff? Or cast 5 different damaging skills in order to achieve high damage? Someone even posted a video in other thread where they used a mount dodge and still got downed by rapid fire with 2-3 last shots saying "invuln" because of downed state. Have you tried doing that on ele or basically anyone else? You'd be lucky if the target gets dismounted to begin with, yet fully down it.

I disagree with your final statement. Weaver is a pretty solid counter especially after this patch.

It has half the range so it has to use it's mobility (aka main escape) to get a chance to

get a chance

to kill the ranger because it doesnt have as high damage output. Ranger can also dodge its burst or use stone signet to soak full burst or leap out of ele's range. How's that a counter? Not to mention that ranger's burst has half cooldown of ele's burst.

Again, I'm not saying I'm struggling with avoiding rapid fire or having hard time killing rangers, but saying that glass ele is counter to glass ranger and that they belong in same basket when it comes to balance is very delusional.

Like I said, It may take a week or two for those too focused on one thing to see what else got elevated to catch on. Theres nothing delusional regarding understanding how good weaver is currently.

If SB was one shotting you, it wasnt with LB. It was with maul, and that negates the "safe distance" argument.

If your "full combo" on an ele is doing only 15K, that negates the "glass" argument.

SB also has to be glass to deal that damage, so that negates the "tons of health" argument.

When these meme SB try to gank in this fashion and I successfully evade, they either blow an escape rotation or they get downed. Balanced SB are actually tougher to deal with because they can hang in the fight longer, albeit still not as long as weaver can. Doesnt matter anymore though, as most have graduated to meme rev. Take one toy away but defend the others and you get to see how hilarious the others are too I guess.

[Justine.6351]

@SoV.5139 said:

@Justine.6351 said:

@SoV.5139 said:

@steki.1478 said:

@SoV.5139 said:

@steki.1478 said:

@SoV.5139 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@SoV.5139 said:

@Justine.6351 said:

@SoV.5139 said:

@Justine.6351 said:

@SoV.5139 said:

@Justine.6351 said:

@Sleepwalker.1398 said:

@steki.1478 said:

While ranger and thief got some kind of buffs this patch, they arent any more viable for squad spot.

Ranger buffs? wait what?It lost it's unblockable......(im not main ranger though)Although after a few fights today, i wonder why Rev "Phase Traversal" has 5secs of unblockable.

Rev unblockables only last for a couple hits and then done. Welcome to balance soulbeasts...

Sure, when we cut that Coalescence of Ruin crit damage in half it will balance out nicely.

Rock out here acting like Paper is OP but Scissors are fine.

Yeah someday when they make cor a skill that can hit a moving target, navigate terrain and not miss simply because of the gaps in its cascade...

I played lb ranger for a couple years. I know how easy it is to play without unblockable buffs let alone with them for an unlimited number of attacks for 3 seconds lol.

Hitting with hammer 3 and 5 on a rev isnt difficult either, and just as mindless as hitting SickEm then using LB2

Im fine with having zero unblockable in the entire game.

People on these boards while all too willing to ignore one broken thing, or even worse defending it while demanding nerfs to another broken thing, are simply Rock QQing that Paper is OP but claiming Scissors is fine.

Never called ranger unblockable buffs op. That was all in your head. And sure it's not hard to land 3 and 5 when you are dumping aoe on a zerg. But if anyone else eats those it's because they are potatoes. We arnt talking a glowy charge up animation, it's a huge kitten hammer over your head or the revenant leaping off the ground. Even with the added red ring people still eat hammer 5, it's sad really.

Mincing words at this point. You did say you didnt need it, which is the same thing Im saying.

This megacrit rev hammer build is another meme build just like the LB2 soulbeast build was, but its actually preferred in zergs, and people defending that while demanding ranger nerfs are logically contradicting themselves.

Justifying it by saying its easy to dodge or avoid is laughable, since its also easy to hit the dodge key twice when ranger LB2 is channeling, yet the forums light up like christmas to get that nerfed.

Keep in mind Im not QQing over the nerf, I just want equally unbalanced things also nerfed. Instead it gets proxy buffed and they remove the evade from druid staff 3 and call it a "balance patch."

Help me understand....

Rev hammer isn’t 2 unblocables for the last 5 seconds, with malicious reprisal???Wich has a icd of 20sec.

Even if has no limit of atacks wich should have, every unblockable should have a limit for its time, hammer fire ratio is much slower than ranger stuff and way more telegraphed.

Something that hits for 20K crit one time only needs one charge of unblockable. The reason people QQ about LB2 is because they get hit with the full channel, all unblockable, and apparently going to the forum and demanding nerfs is easier than hitting a dodge key after realizing that they were being LB2 channeled.

My actual position is if they are going to nerf one meme build they all need to be nerfed. Im also not sure how many times I have to say they could eliminate unblockable from the entire game and Id be fine with it, before people stop including it in their justification

You guys will learn this lesson soon enough, as all of these "presumably unskilled" folks who were channeling people who couldnt hit a dodge key down on LB2 retreat to the next meme build and you find yourselves getting one shot hammered, or one shot mauled from stealth, or single bursted guardian trapped etc....

TL;DR: People declaring victory on this as if any one nerf stops it from happening are hilarious.

I've never been hit by 20k from anything on rev's hammer and I play glass ele most of the time.

CoR also requires open field and can be countered by side stepping or standing on slightly elevated terrain. Rapid fire can hit you with no problem while ranger is sitting inside objective or on top of the cliff or whichever safe spot you find.

Still trying to justify one meme build while demanding another be nerfed is Rock claiming Paper is OP but Scissors are fine.

That argument is pretty bad considering that both of them melt ele with a single skill or 2 autos. There's no scissors when you play glass ele, but every pebble breaks your glass.

The argument isnt whats bad there, as thats my entire point. (your ele is scissors and you claim it doesnt need a nerf and is not OP) People playing other glass meme builds want their hard counters nerfed. They cleverly (or so they think) couch this request in terms of the build they want nerfed being a no skill build while their meme build deserves to be left alone because it cant be played by those with potatoes for hands, even though it is just as cheese.

If you are playing the lowest HP total, with the lowest armor total, adding no health or armor, then yes, you will be easily downed from time to time. I bet the complaining stops when the player playing said build is the one doing the one shotting, and starts back up after they are the one being one shot.

TL;DR: People playing high risk high reward builds want the risk lowered. This should be done by hitting a dodge key twice rather than by 60WPMing out post after post about how their hard counters need to be nerfed. Even with that being said, Im still fine with the nerfs, if all meme builds get nerfed, rather than just the hard counters to the forum warriors builds.

on and on he goes,where he ends,nobody knows.

Cant hit a dodge key twice, but can 90WPM-out a "nerf the thing that counters me" post.

Silver level in game PVPer. Diamond level forum warrior.

Still projecting...

And lol at bringing spvp into this. Not to mention there isn't a diamond tier there. Makes me wonder if you are silver rank in spvp looking up and assumed the upper tiers were setup like wvw because you never got that high lol.