Another Patch, Another Nerf Necromancers.

[Morde.3158]

@Kuulpb.5412 said:

@Lahmia.2193 said:

@Kuulpb.5412 said:

@Morde.3158 said:

@Kuulpb.5412 said:

@Warscythes.9307 said:

@Kuulpb.5412 said:

@Warscythes.9307 said:

@Kuulpb.5412 said:

@Warscythes.9307 said:

@Kuulpb.5412 said:

@Warscythes.9307 said:

@Kuulpb.5412 said:

@Richard Marcinko.5132 said:I think someone in the Mesmer forum said it best, they are Killing all of the HOT specs so people will be forced to buy POF. I hope this isn't the case and they have a plan to fix this but it's looking more and more like that's exactly what they're doing.

and then after everyone buys PoF THEN they bring out a new spec ( maybe why there is no expac between LS4 and LS5 ) and nerf PoF :P

What are you even talking about. Reaper is plenty viable and has been buffed over and over again since PoF while scourge has been nerfed over and over again.

In PvP solo queue, I would rather see Reaper or even core necro on my team than a scourge because of how reliant it is on support like FB. The only overwhelming strength of scourge is WvW blobbing and even there Reaper is plenty fine.

I don’t want to disregard specific things for game modes, but there should be an equal usage of elite specs in all three game modes if it was well balanced, as in Reaper in PvE is a lot different to PvP reaper because of the thing you fight.

That is and should not be possible unless you want to massively homogenize every single class. Some class/spec will be better or worse at different game modes because different game mode need different things. For example base thief is actually really good in PvP but useless in Raids because PvP has a lot more focus on mobility but PvE cares more about damage. This is never going to change because as you said the object you fight is different. I am perfectly fine with some specs be good at one mode but bad in others, because the alternative is homogenization.

The issue however is the things are not balanced for multiple game modes, for example in PvE raiding, not being able to be healed in shroud means you either Lose dps above 50% health or you don't get healed, whereas in pvp it's fine as it's balanced there since you COULD in theory be a lot tankier than normal as players do not have the absurd amount of health as raid bosses.

Is 90% health mate.

I don't think you realized this but Reapers have been playing with this for a very very long time. Soul eater was just introduced 3 months ago. Did everybody just forget to play with decimate defense suddenly?

When you are going to shroud, you should be doing an axe 2 while well of suffering and nightfall is ticking at the same time. Since soul eater still heals out of shroud, it would take a pretty lucky hit at the exact right moment for you to lose scholar. Hell if you want to remove that chance without a doubt, take the heal shout and use it before shroud. Do you know how much dps blood fiend do? 50-100.

This is completely overblown. I have been player pretty much nothing but power reaper in my raids and the amount of times where I am forced to go into shroud with less than 90% hp can be count in one hand.

In PvP you take decimate defense

@Asum.4960 said:

@derd.6413 said:i'm just hoping next balance patch has an overhaul to necro's defensive abilities

We are asking for proper/scaling defensive tools for Necro since literally 7 years, so don't get your hopes up.

Also just did a Hero point run on Scrapper just now for fun, soloing all the difficult PoF and HoT HP's, testing the new Traits etc., and it's essentially immortal unless you get straight up oneshot. In Full Zerker that is.But yea, Reaper, which already actually had less sustain than Scourge, definitely needed a nerf. Especially one that in turn completely crippled it again in PvP.

If you are seriously suggesting scrapper is better than reaper in overworld then I don't know what to tell you. Plenty of classes are immortal in zerker gear, the point is how much damage/burst you do while being invincible. Reaper by far has one of the best self damage in overworld that scrapper can't really compete.

In PvP soul eater even prenerf was a niche choice at the most. Decimate Defense is meta still before and after the change. Just actually try to play PvP and you will see Reaper perform exactly the same as they did before in PvP.

The issue is not “we didn't have it before so nothing changed” the issue is “we had it and it got removed”.

Right, because it was overpowered and encouraged an incredibly lazy way to play the game in PvE. You could literally just facetank in raid, get down to 20% hp and not care about anything in the world because you can just hop back in shroud and heal back in pretty much 3 seconds. No it is not optimal, but it is basically saying you are now invincible and can do whatever you want which is something terrible to encourage.

It's impact in PvP and WvW is minimal because is a side upgrade at best because DD remains to be better. If you want sustain then do you know what they should buff? Death magic and blighter's boon, hell why not blood magic too for certain options. It really shouldn't be attaching sustain to an offense trait.

Necromancers can not be healed in shroud by druids, tempests or anything not minor health regen from grandmaster traits. Having a way to heal in shroud - and then removing it because “it was too survivable” shows the bad idea having two healthbars is.

With blighters boon slotted a ele can give the reaper auras that allot of heal potential with fire aura and others that give boons just wanted to put that out there we have anything we need for sustain anet just needs to change it and be done with it.

Wiki: Gain life force when you apply a boon to yourself. If you are in reaper's shroud, gain health instead. - Sadly it only applies to SELF boons.

I think he is talking about the might gained from being hit whilst you have a fire aura. I'm not an expert on how auras work however, so I can't say whether aura effects are dictated to by the player that granted or the player who it is applied to.

Ah, That does bring up the question though, if someone applies an aura is the duration of might on your Your boon dur or their boon dur, I feel like this needs testing.

Yeah it works I used to use blighters boon on glass necro when we still had speed of shadows with recharge. the auras work so that the boons are your own remember the first light aura retal and vulnerability to foes struck any aura that provides a boon works with blighters boon it was Very fun while it lasted but the idea is to get anet to normalize the reaper shroud cast times so tht we dont need the agility or move the agility to another trait like relentless pursuit because right now that trait does not help me chase anyone down like they devs claimed it to be some movie horror chase thing lol.

[Kuulpb.5412]

@Anchoku.8142 said:

@Kuulpb.5412 said:

You mentioned Necromancer being inherently tanky. This is a fundamental misconception of the profession.

Yes, Necromancer has higher base health and, in the simplest terms, a second health bar but that does not make the profession tanky.

Necro was also designed with specific strengths and weaknesses (in 2012.)Strengths:

• A solid array of condition output and control
• Pets, lots of pets, more than Ranger
• Fields, lots of combo fields
• AoE was also a highlight of the profession
• Shroud is a fast-CD damage mitigation skill available on all builds... ALL builds

To balance this OP offensive support class, the dev's baked in some critical vulnerabilities.Weaknesses:

• Low single target dps and burst potential
• No finishers on a dps build and almost none at all
• Shroud requires charging (LF gen) and the LF pool must be managed.
• Shroud is not a true invulnerability skill as it does not offer a fixed duration of invulnerability and it's duration can easily be reduced so it does not scale
• Necro is highly susceptible to control effects - there were few stun breaks and no stability outside of elite transforms
• Necro has maybe three mobility skills for each specialization and none on weapons

Necro was not designed to be tanky but was given more health on its first and second health pools to survive its weaknesses. If people consider only the health and LF pools, they will draw the wrong conclusion. For much of it's history, Necro was one of the least survivable professions and was nerfed into oblivion in PvE by the introduction of Unshakable.

No other profession comes close to losing as much health in combat as Necro. That is why it has so much.

I am aware necromancer has no “damage reduction” outside of shroud, but it is still at base the “tankiest caster” with highest health, Necromancer is like Blissey, loads of health but if you punch it, it dies.

[Kuulpb.5412]

@Morde.3158 said:

@Kuulpb.5412 said:

@Lahmia.2193 said:

@Kuulpb.5412 said:

@Morde.3158 said:

@Kuulpb.5412 said:

@Warscythes.9307 said:

@Kuulpb.5412 said:

@Warscythes.9307 said:

@Kuulpb.5412 said:

@Warscythes.9307 said:

@Kuulpb.5412 said:

@Warscythes.9307 said:

@Kuulpb.5412 said:

@Richard Marcinko.5132 said:I think someone in the Mesmer forum said it best, they are Killing all of the HOT specs so people will be forced to buy POF. I hope this isn't the case and they have a plan to fix this but it's looking more and more like that's exactly what they're doing.

and then after everyone buys PoF THEN they bring out a new spec ( maybe why there is no expac between LS4 and LS5 ) and nerf PoF :P

What are you even talking about. Reaper is plenty viable and has been buffed over and over again since PoF while scourge has been nerfed over and over again.

In PvP solo queue, I would rather see Reaper or even core necro on my team than a scourge because of how reliant it is on support like FB. The only overwhelming strength of scourge is WvW blobbing and even there Reaper is plenty fine.

I don’t want to disregard specific things for game modes, but there should be an equal usage of elite specs in all three game modes if it was well balanced, as in Reaper in PvE is a lot different to PvP reaper because of the thing you fight.

That is and should not be possible unless you want to massively homogenize every single class. Some class/spec will be better or worse at different game modes because different game mode need different things. For example base thief is actually really good in PvP but useless in Raids because PvP has a lot more focus on mobility but PvE cares more about damage. This is never going to change because as you said the object you fight is different. I am perfectly fine with some specs be good at one mode but bad in others, because the alternative is homogenization.

The issue however is the things are not balanced for multiple game modes, for example in PvE raiding, not being able to be healed in shroud means you either Lose dps above 50% health or you don't get healed, whereas in pvp it's fine as it's balanced there since you COULD in theory be a lot tankier than normal as players do not have the absurd amount of health as raid bosses.

Is 90% health mate.

I don't think you realized this but Reapers have been playing with this for a very very long time. Soul eater was just introduced 3 months ago. Did everybody just forget to play with decimate defense suddenly?

When you are going to shroud, you should be doing an axe 2 while well of suffering and nightfall is ticking at the same time. Since soul eater still heals out of shroud, it would take a pretty lucky hit at the exact right moment for you to lose scholar. Hell if you want to remove that chance without a doubt, take the heal shout and use it before shroud. Do you know how much dps blood fiend do? 50-100.

This is completely overblown. I have been player pretty much nothing but power reaper in my raids and the amount of times where I am forced to go into shroud with less than 90% hp can be count in one hand.

In PvP you take decimate defense

@Asum.4960 said:

@derd.6413 said:i'm just hoping next balance patch has an overhaul to necro's defensive abilities

We are asking for proper/scaling defensive tools for Necro since literally 7 years, so don't get your hopes up.

Also just did a Hero point run on Scrapper just now for fun, soloing all the difficult PoF and HoT HP's, testing the new Traits etc., and it's essentially immortal unless you get straight up oneshot. In Full Zerker that is.But yea, Reaper, which already actually had less sustain than Scourge, definitely needed a nerf. Especially one that in turn completely crippled it again in PvP.

If you are seriously suggesting scrapper is better than reaper in overworld then I don't know what to tell you. Plenty of classes are immortal in zerker gear, the point is how much damage/burst you do while being invincible. Reaper by far has one of the best self damage in overworld that scrapper can't really compete.

In PvP soul eater even prenerf was a niche choice at the most. Decimate Defense is meta still before and after the change. Just actually try to play PvP and you will see Reaper perform exactly the same as they did before in PvP.

The issue is not “we didn't have it before so nothing changed” the issue is “we had it and it got removed”.

Right, because it was overpowered and encouraged an incredibly lazy way to play the game in PvE. You could literally just facetank in raid, get down to 20% hp and not care about anything in the world because you can just hop back in shroud and heal back in pretty much 3 seconds. No it is not optimal, but it is basically saying you are now invincible and can do whatever you want which is something terrible to encourage.

It's impact in PvP and WvW is minimal because is a side upgrade at best because DD remains to be better. If you want sustain then do you know what they should buff? Death magic and blighter's boon, hell why not blood magic too for certain options. It really shouldn't be attaching sustain to an offense trait.

Necromancers can not be healed in shroud by druids, tempests or anything not minor health regen from grandmaster traits. Having a way to heal in shroud - and then removing it because “it was too survivable” shows the bad idea having two healthbars is.

With blighters boon slotted a ele can give the reaper auras that allot of heal potential with fire aura and others that give boons just wanted to put that out there we have anything we need for sustain anet just needs to change it and be done with it.

Wiki: Gain life force when you apply a boon to yourself. If you are in reaper's shroud, gain health instead. - Sadly it only applies to SELF boons.

I think he is talking about the might gained from being hit whilst you have a fire aura. I'm not an expert on how auras work however, so I can't say whether aura effects are dictated to by the player that granted or the player who it is applied to.

Ah, That does bring up the question though, if someone applies an aura is the duration of might on your Your boon dur or their boon dur, I feel like this needs testing.

Yeah it works I used to use blighters boon on glass necro when we still had speed of shadows with recharge. the auras work so that the boons are your own remember the first light aura retal and vulnerability to foes struck any aura that provides a boon works with blighters boon it was Very fun while it lasted but the idea is to get anet to normalize the reaper shroud cast times so tht we dont need the agility or move the agility to another trait like relentless pursuit because right now that trait does not help me chase anyone down like they devs claimed it to be some movie horror chase thing lol.

I suppose an issue there is you have to be hit consistently for boons to apply, and have the aura on.

[Xervite.5493]

The amount of people who qq and think reaper cant sustain while in shroud is absurd. A heal signet called signet of vampirism exists along with signet of suffering trait in spite which allows you to heal when struck while in shroud. Granted that some sustain was lost but not all is lost so calm down fellas.

[Kalavier.1097]

Another balance patch, another day spent laughing at people screaming about necromancers while I continue to play, enjoy, and succeed in the areas I choose to play in as my necromancer I've played since the start of the game.

[Obtena.7952]

@Xervite.5493 said:The amount of people who qq and think reaper cant sustain while in shroud is absurd. A heal signet called signet of vampirism exists along with signet of suffering trait in spite which allows you to heal when struck while in shroud. Granted that some sustain was lost but not all is lost so calm down fellas.

People forget there was a class here somewhere that didn't rely on OP'ed Shroud heals from SE only just 4 months ago. I guess it's super convenient to forget that to complain that the change wasn't reasonable.

[Morde.3158]

@Kuulpb.5412 said:

@Morde.3158 said:

@Kuulpb.5412 said:

@Lahmia.2193 said:

@Kuulpb.5412 said:

@Morde.3158 said:

@Kuulpb.5412 said:

@Warscythes.9307 said:

@Kuulpb.5412 said:

@Warscythes.9307 said:

@Kuulpb.5412 said:

@Warscythes.9307 said:

@Kuulpb.5412 said:

@Warscythes.9307 said:

@Kuulpb.5412 said:

@Richard Marcinko.5132 said:I think someone in the Mesmer forum said it best, they are Killing all of the HOT specs so people will be forced to buy POF. I hope this isn't the case and they have a plan to fix this but it's looking more and more like that's exactly what they're doing.

and then after everyone buys PoF THEN they bring out a new spec ( maybe why there is no expac between LS4 and LS5 ) and nerf PoF :P

What are you even talking about. Reaper is plenty viable and has been buffed over and over again since PoF while scourge has been nerfed over and over again.

In PvP solo queue, I would rather see Reaper or even core necro on my team than a scourge because of how reliant it is on support like FB. The only overwhelming strength of scourge is WvW blobbing and even there Reaper is plenty fine.

I don’t want to disregard specific things for game modes, but there should be an equal usage of elite specs in all three game modes if it was well balanced, as in Reaper in PvE is a lot different to PvP reaper because of the thing you fight.

That is and should not be possible unless you want to massively homogenize every single class. Some class/spec will be better or worse at different game modes because different game mode need different things. For example base thief is actually really good in PvP but useless in Raids because PvP has a lot more focus on mobility but PvE cares more about damage. This is never going to change because as you said the object you fight is different. I am perfectly fine with some specs be good at one mode but bad in others, because the alternative is homogenization.

The issue however is the things are not balanced for multiple game modes, for example in PvE raiding, not being able to be healed in shroud means you either Lose dps above 50% health or you don't get healed, whereas in pvp it's fine as it's balanced there since you COULD in theory be a lot tankier than normal as players do not have the absurd amount of health as raid bosses.

Is 90% health mate.

I don't think you realized this but Reapers have been playing with this for a very very long time. Soul eater was just introduced 3 months ago. Did everybody just forget to play with decimate defense suddenly?

When you are going to shroud, you should be doing an axe 2 while well of suffering and nightfall is ticking at the same time. Since soul eater still heals out of shroud, it would take a pretty lucky hit at the exact right moment for you to lose scholar. Hell if you want to remove that chance without a doubt, take the heal shout and use it before shroud. Do you know how much dps blood fiend do? 50-100.

This is completely overblown. I have been player pretty much nothing but power reaper in my raids and the amount of times where I am forced to go into shroud with less than 90% hp can be count in one hand.

In PvP you take decimate defense

@Asum.4960 said:

@derd.6413 said:i'm just hoping next balance patch has an overhaul to necro's defensive abilities

We are asking for proper/scaling defensive tools for Necro since literally 7 years, so don't get your hopes up.

Also just did a Hero point run on Scrapper just now for fun, soloing all the difficult PoF and HoT HP's, testing the new Traits etc., and it's essentially immortal unless you get straight up oneshot. In Full Zerker that is.But yea, Reaper, which already actually had less sustain than Scourge, definitely needed a nerf. Especially one that in turn completely crippled it again in PvP.

If you are seriously suggesting scrapper is better than reaper in overworld then I don't know what to tell you. Plenty of classes are immortal in zerker gear, the point is how much damage/burst you do while being invincible. Reaper by far has one of the best self damage in overworld that scrapper can't really compete.

In PvP soul eater even prenerf was a niche choice at the most. Decimate Defense is meta still before and after the change. Just actually try to play PvP and you will see Reaper perform exactly the same as they did before in PvP.

The issue is not “we didn't have it before so nothing changed” the issue is “we had it and it got removed”.

Right, because it was overpowered and encouraged an incredibly lazy way to play the game in PvE. You could literally just facetank in raid, get down to 20% hp and not care about anything in the world because you can just hop back in shroud and heal back in pretty much 3 seconds. No it is not optimal, but it is basically saying you are now invincible and can do whatever you want which is something terrible to encourage.

It's impact in PvP and WvW is minimal because is a side upgrade at best because DD remains to be better. If you want sustain then do you know what they should buff? Death magic and blighter's boon, hell why not blood magic too for certain options. It really shouldn't be attaching sustain to an offense trait.

Necromancers can not be healed in shroud by druids, tempests or anything not minor health regen from grandmaster traits. Having a way to heal in shroud - and then removing it because “it was too survivable” shows the bad idea having two healthbars is.

With blighters boon slotted a ele can give the reaper auras that allot of heal potential with fire aura and others that give boons just wanted to put that out there we have anything we need for sustain anet just needs to change it and be done with it.

Wiki: Gain life force when you apply a boon to yourself. If you are in reaper's shroud, gain health instead. - Sadly it only applies to SELF boons.

I think he is talking about the might gained from being hit whilst you have a fire aura. I'm not an expert on how auras work however, so I can't say whether aura effects are dictated to by the player that granted or the player who it is applied to.

Ah, That does bring up the question though, if someone applies an aura is the duration of might on your Your boon dur or their boon dur, I feel like this needs testing.

Yeah it works I used to use blighters boon on glass necro when we still had speed of shadows with recharge. the auras work so that the boons are your own remember the first light aura retal and vulnerability to foes struck any aura that provides a boon works with blighters boon it was Very fun while it lasted but the idea is to get anet to normalize the reaper shroud cast times so tht we dont need the agility or move the agility to another trait like relentless pursuit because right now that trait does not help me chase anyone down like they devs claimed it to be some movie horror chase thing lol.

I suppose an issue there is you have to be hit consistently for boons to apply, and have the aura on.

Indeed but its not hard to get hit in wvw haha

[Nimon.7840]

@Xervite.5493 said:The amount of people who qq and think reaper cant sustain while in shroud is absurd. A heal signet called signet of vampirism exists along with signet of suffering trait in spite which allows you to heal when struck while in shroud. Granted that some sustain was lost but not all is lost so calm down fellas.

Great, we have to take one of the worst (maybe the worst) healing skill to get healing in shroud and in addition waste an trait, to make it somewhat better, even though,. Both other trait options are like 300times better.

That's bull....

And what does it give you?Flat dmg reduction, that only procs once per second.When every class is able to 100-0 you in 2-3 seconds.

Let's assume an 4k, 6k and 8k hit. With 400 heal on hit taken4k: 10% dmg reduction, that can only occurs once every second6k: 7,5% dmg reduction8k: 5% dmg reduction

Literally every class is power crept and tries to burst, and is able to burst. Many of them do 20-30k burst.That's on average 800/25000= 3% dmg reduction which is pretty bad.(Assuming the burst occurs in 2 seconds)

Not to mention, that using the other signets is a waste of utilities as well. Because they do nothing better than your other possible utility skills.

Condi remove? Use consume conditions and spectral walkStun break? Is on the same skill as condi remove, not so good, having to choose between bothExtra power? - use sigil of bloodlust. Also: why is the active of the passive power signet a Condi activeMovespeed? Use rune that gives movespeed.Lifeforce gen? Not having an active use

[dceptaconroy.7928]

I think alot of contributors are either alt necros or havent been on the full journey as alot of us have. They read tooltips and put 1 and 1 together without truly being invested and looking at the nuances in play.

[Kalavier.1097]

@dceptaconroy.7928 said:I think alot of contributors are either alt necros or havent been on the full journey as alot of us have. They read tooltips and put 1 and 1 together without truly being invested and looking at the nuances in play.

Honestly going to agree with this. It seems like a lot of complaining just to complain, while I'm happily moving ahead on my necro without any troubles despite all these whines I see about the class being ruined/nerfed to hell and unplayable.

[Anchoku.8142]

@Kuulpb.5412 said:

@Anchoku.8142 said:

@Kuulpb.5412 said:

You mentioned Necromancer being inherently tanky. This is a fundamental misconception of the profession.

Yes, Necromancer has higher base health and, in the simplest terms, a second health bar but that does not make the profession tanky.

Necro was also designed with specific strengths and weaknesses (in 2012.)Strengths:

• A solid array of condition output and control
• Pets, lots of pets, more than Ranger
• Fields, lots of combo fields
• AoE was also a highlight of the profession
• Shroud is a fast-CD damage mitigation skill available on all builds... ALL builds

To balance this OP offensive support class, the dev's baked in some critical vulnerabilities.Weaknesses:

• Low single target dps and burst potential
• No finishers on a dps build and almost none at all
• Shroud requires charging (LF gen) and the LF pool must be managed.
• Shroud is not a true invulnerability skill as it does not offer a fixed duration of invulnerability and it's duration can easily be reduced so it does not scale
• Necro is highly susceptible to control effects - there were few stun breaks and no stability outside of elite transforms
• Necro has maybe three mobility skills for each specialization and none on weapons

Necro was not designed to be tanky but was given more health on its first and second health pools to survive its weaknesses. If people consider only the health and LF pools, they will draw the wrong conclusion. For much of it's history, Necro was one of the least survivable professions and was nerfed into oblivion in PvE by the introduction of Unshakable.

No other profession comes close to losing as much health in combat as Necro. That is why it has so much.

I am aware necromancer has no “damage reduction” outside of shroud, but it is still at base the “tankiest caster” with highest health, Necromancer is like Blissey, loads of health but if you punch it, it dies.

Please read what you wrote and explain how, "... if you punch it, it dies," defines tanky. Also, Necro was designed to require two punches to kill it, unlike Mesmer and Elementalist but both of those professions have far more mobility and/or immunity skills. Which light armor profession is it that tanks in raids?

[Ghos.1326]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Xervite.5493 said:The amount of people who qq and think reaper cant sustain while in shroud is absurd. A heal signet called signet of vampirism exists along with signet of suffering trait in spite which allows you to heal when struck while in shroud. Granted that some sustain was lost but not all is lost so calm down fellas.

People forget there was a class here somewhere that didn't rely on OP'ed Shroud heals from SE only just 4 months ago. I guess it's super convenient to forget that to complain that the change wasn't reasonable.

Most of those are the ones that want their damage, sustain, and their mobility to tower over everything else. they don't understand that, at this point in time things NEED nerfs, not buffs. gotta kill that powercreep. reaper is still good, especially with spinal shivers, both main proc and lesser. they both still chunk a hefty portion out of your health when procced. also, reapers still reach high might rather easily so they can dish out a ton of damage while in the protection of shroud.

but i guess most people who plays things that doesn't involve skill to be optimal and effective will gripe about well deserved nerfs. oh well.

[Kuulpb.5412]

@Anchoku.8142 said:

@Kuulpb.5412 said:

@Anchoku.8142 said:

@Kuulpb.5412 said:

You mentioned Necromancer being inherently tanky. This is a fundamental misconception of the profession.

Yes, Necromancer has higher base health and, in the simplest terms, a second health bar but that does not make the profession tanky.

Necro was also designed with specific strengths and weaknesses (in 2012.)Strengths:

• A solid array of condition output and control
• Pets, lots of pets, more than Ranger
• Fields, lots of combo fields
• AoE was also a highlight of the profession
• Shroud is a fast-CD damage mitigation skill available on all builds... ALL builds

To balance this OP offensive support class, the dev's baked in some critical vulnerabilities.Weaknesses:

• Low single target dps and burst potential
• No finishers on a dps build and almost none at all
• Shroud requires charging (LF gen) and the LF pool must be managed.
• Shroud is not a true invulnerability skill as it does not offer a fixed duration of invulnerability and it's duration can easily be reduced so it does not scale
• Necro is highly susceptible to control effects - there were few stun breaks and no stability outside of elite transforms
• Necro has maybe three mobility skills for each specialization and none on weapons

Necro was not designed to be tanky but was given more health on its first and second health pools to survive its weaknesses. If people consider only the health and LF pools, they will draw the wrong conclusion. For much of it's history, Necro was one of the least survivable professions and was nerfed into oblivion in PvE by the introduction of Unshakable.

No other profession comes close to losing as much health in combat as Necro. That is why it has so much.

I am aware necromancer has no “damage reduction” outside of shroud, but it is still at base the “tankiest caster” with highest health, Necromancer is like Blissey, loads of health but if you punch it, it dies.

Please read what you wrote and explain how, "... if you punch it, it dies," defines tanky. Also, Necro was designed to require

two

punches to kill it, unlike Mesmer and Elementalist but both of those professions have far more mobility and/or immunity skills. Which light armor profession is it that tanks in raids?

I am not counting Elite Specs when saying tanking, Especially since Necromancer and Ele cannot naturally use shields in any spec, core Necro is tankier, but has low mitigation is what I tried to say, as the tanky aspect could just as easily be replaced by thief because they can heal and evade and block if we say the damage mitigation makes them tanky. I should also clarify that this depends on which tanky you use, the Tanky - draw aggro - whoch necromancers coincidentally do a LOT in pvp/wvw, Tanky as in Unkillable, or Tanky as in Slow juggernaught-y.

[ZDragon.3046]

@Warscythes.9307 said:

@Kuulpb.5412 said:

@Warscythes.9307 said:

@Kuulpb.5412 said:

@Warscythes.9307 said:

@Kuulpb.5412 said:

@Warscythes.9307 said:

@Kuulpb.5412 said:

@Warscythes.9307 said:

@Kuulpb.5412 said:

@Richard Marcinko.5132 said:I think someone in the Mesmer forum said it best, they are Killing all of the HOT specs so people will be forced to buy POF. I hope this isn't the case and they have a plan to fix this but it's looking more and more like that's exactly what they're doing.

and then after everyone buys PoF THEN they bring out a new spec ( maybe why there is no expac between LS4 and LS5 ) and nerf PoF :P

What are you even talking about. Reaper is plenty viable and has been buffed over and over again since PoF while scourge has been nerfed over and over again.

In PvP solo queue, I would rather see Reaper or even core necro on my team than a scourge because of how reliant it is on support like FB. The only overwhelming strength of scourge is WvW blobbing and even there Reaper is plenty fine.

I don’t want to disregard specific things for game modes, but there should be an equal usage of elite specs in all three game modes if it was well balanced, as in Reaper in PvE is a lot different to PvP reaper because of the thing you fight.

That is and should not be possible unless you want to massively homogenize every single class. Some class/spec will be better or worse at different game modes because different game mode need different things. For example base thief is actually really good in PvP but useless in Raids because PvP has a lot more focus on mobility but PvE cares more about damage. This is never going to change because as you said the object you fight is different. I am perfectly fine with some specs be good at one mode but bad in others, because the alternative is homogenization.

The issue however is the things are not balanced for multiple game modes, for example in PvE raiding, not being able to be healed in shroud means you either Lose dps above 50% health or you don't get healed, whereas in pvp it's fine as it's balanced there since you COULD in theory be a lot tankier than normal as players do not have the absurd amount of health as raid bosses.

Is 90% health mate.

I don't think you realized this but Reapers have been playing with this for a very very long time. Soul eater was just introduced 3 months ago. Did everybody just forget to play with decimate defense suddenly?

When you are going to shroud, you should be doing an axe 2 while well of suffering and nightfall is ticking at the same time. Since soul eater still heals out of shroud, it would take a pretty lucky hit at the exact right moment for you to lose scholar. Hell if you want to remove that chance without a doubt, take the heal shout and use it before shroud. Do you know how much dps blood fiend do? 50-100.

This is completely overblown. I have been player pretty much nothing but power reaper in my raids and the amount of times where I am forced to go into shroud with less than 90% hp can be count in one hand.

In PvP you take decimate defense

@Asum.4960 said:

@derd.6413 said:i'm just hoping next balance patch has an overhaul to necro's defensive abilities

We are asking for proper/scaling defensive tools for Necro since literally 7 years, so don't get your hopes up.

Also just did a Hero point run on Scrapper just now for fun, soloing all the difficult PoF and HoT HP's, testing the new Traits etc., and it's essentially immortal unless you get straight up oneshot. In Full Zerker that is.But yea, Reaper, which already actually had less sustain than Scourge, definitely needed a nerf. Especially one that in turn completely crippled it again in PvP.

If you are seriously suggesting scrapper is better than reaper in overworld then I don't know what to tell you. Plenty of classes are immortal in zerker gear, the point is how much damage/burst you do while being invincible. Reaper by far has one of the best self damage in overworld that scrapper can't really compete.

In PvP soul eater even prenerf was a niche choice at the most. Decimate Defense is meta still before and after the change. Just actually try to play PvP and you will see Reaper perform exactly the same as they did before in PvP.

The issue is not “we didn't have it before so nothing changed” the issue is “we had it and it got removed”.

Right, because it was overpowered and encouraged an incredibly lazy way to play the game in PvE. You could literally just facetank in raid, get down to 20% hp and not care about anything in the world because you can just hop back in shroud and heal back in pretty much 3 seconds. No it is not optimal, but it is basically saying you are now invincible and can do whatever you want which is something terrible to encourage.

It's impact in PvP and WvW is minimal because is a side upgrade at best because DD remains to be better. If you want sustain then do you know what they should buff? Death magic and blighter's boon, hell why not blood magic too for certain options. It really shouldn't be attaching sustain to an offense trait.

Necromancers can not be healed in shroud by druids, tempests or anything not minor health regen from grandmaster traits. Having a way to heal in shroud - and then removing it because “it was too survivable” shows the bad idea having two healthbars is.

All it does is showing how much life stealing is if your character optimizes for damage. Have you never played a thief with invigorating precision? You practically never died just like reaper with soul eater. The difference for them however is that they would have to give up no quarter. This trait would have been perfectly fine if this is competing with something like Onslaught. What happened simply was that it is by far the best damage option AND the defensive option while pretty up giving up almost nothing. If there's competition then it would have worked fine, but ultimately it just gave the class what is practically invincibility and gave up nothing else.

Note that you are crossing a medium armor profession with a light armor professionAlso note that thief has evades and necro is evade limitedAlso note that you are comparing a core trait to a Xpack Trait which requires spending money to own. which in almost all cases the HoT and PoF traits are better than core traits no matter which professions you cross reference.

Ideally your comparison here is not a good one. While i get what you are trying to say you are leaving out a few key things.

Ideally while the new soul eater did not compete with chilling victory before its change it did compete but its effects were minor and more importantly they were not active in shroud.

Next lets remember that Soul eater is only active within 300 rangel meaning the reaper must be in the face of danger without escapes and hard sustain such as evades, invulns, blinks, stealth. etc. to gain its benefits. IF this was not the case I might allow the comparison of this trait to one challenging something like Reapers Onslaught but certainly not it is not worth the weight of a grand master to compete with RO. Because we get right back to square one of why we cant have damage or be healed by others in shroud in end game content and to take self healing would require a massive dps loss which will not be accepted in end game raids (power reaper is already riding the line of viability as it is. A dps loss from critical hits and attack speed is unacceptable at the moment.

If you want to compare Invigorating precision to a healing trait in necros kit you should be looking to something like the core blood magic line and asking why the traits vampiric and vampiric aura do not provide small % healing based on damage done and why they instead work on healing power which people do not take in power builds. Even when you do the scaling is very very very minor and the healing gained its dropplets of hp that add up to maybe a few hundred hp over pretty long durations (not good)

Lastly you should think about how Invigorating precision would be if it healed you in the same manner as Vampiric or Vamp Aura and was based on a stat like healing power instead of critical damage done. To understand why people are frustrated you need to first understand the undermined mess that is necormancer.

[Josiah.2967]

All I can say is that I want this back.

A DPS cooldowns should be DPS cooldowns. Sustain cooldowns should be sustain cooldowns.

Without it, the bandaid helped a lot. It allowed me to DPS more, and contribute more. Even using it as a full DPS cooldown, we are not close to top DPS. Perhaps the best option is really buffing GS. That would help a lot.

[Kuulpb.5412]

@"Josiah.2967" said:All I can say is that I want this back.

A DPS cooldowns should be DPS cooldowns. Sustain cooldowns should be sustain cooldowns.

Without it, the bandaid helped a lot. It allowed me to DPS more, and contribute more. Even using it as a full DPS cooldown, we are not close to top DPS. Perhaps the best option is really buffing GS. That would help a lot.

I know this is a "me" thing, but I don't get why people don't like my Idea of a Complete Necromancer overhaul, I did my idea for the weapons and the traits corresponding to the weapons, but People seemed to hate my idea. I had made greatsword into a more Tank-ish thing where you would have a beam that would apply taunt but not let the enemy attack so it'd be like a Pull but a channelled pull.

[Aigleborgne.2981]

@Kuulpb.5412 said:

@"Josiah.2967" said:All I can say is that I want this back.

A DPS cooldowns should be DPS cooldowns. Sustain cooldowns should be sustain cooldowns.

Without it, the bandaid helped a lot. It allowed me to DPS more, and contribute more. Even using it as a full DPS cooldown, we are not close to top DPS. Perhaps the best option is really buffing GS. That would help a lot.

I know this is a "me" thing, but I don't get why people don't like my Idea of a Complete Necromancer overhaul, I did my idea for the weapons and the traits corresponding to the weapons, but People seemed to hate my idea. I had made greatsword into a more Tank-ish thing where you would have a beam that would apply taunt but not let the enemy attack so it'd be like a Pull but a channelled pull.

Because a complete overhaul is less likely to happen than minor adjustments. And even less an overhaul following player suggestions.It might have been possible with a dedicated balance team that communicates with their players. Look at the reality: we are facing a wall. Asking for slight adjustments is already hard to get some changes. So asking more is just a dream...

[Asum.4960]

@Kuulpb.5412 said:

@"Josiah.2967" said:All I can say is that I want this back.

A DPS cooldowns should be DPS cooldowns. Sustain cooldowns should be sustain cooldowns.

Without it, the bandaid helped a lot. It allowed me to DPS more, and contribute more. Even using it as a full DPS cooldown, we are not close to top DPS. Perhaps the best option is really buffing GS. That would help a lot.

I know this is a "me" thing, but I don't get why people don't like my Idea of a Complete Necromancer overhaul, I did my idea for the weapons and the traits corresponding to the weapons, but People seemed to hate my idea. I had made greatsword into a more Tank-ish thing where you would have a beam that would apply taunt but not let the enemy attack so it'd be like a Pull but a channelled pull.

People were on board with a major Necro rework (and made elaborate suggestion posts for Anet) since a year after launch, and the year after that.. and the year after that.. and the year after that..I think a lot of people have just realised that that's not going to be happening.

Even with more minor reworks of Traitlines and such, I can't imagine a more worthwhile target than Necromancer, especially Death Magic and Blood Magic, yet even though Anet has been addressing profession after profession more or less successfully, Necro has been skipped over and over again.

Most minor adjustments have either been Scourge nerfs or Reaper buffnerfs until it became a half decent DPS over the course of over 3 years of small changes, something that should have been accomplished in one or two patches.All the while every single core problem of Necromancer has been left unaddressed since launch day.

Getting even the slightest adjustment for Necromancer out of Anet is all anyone can hope for at this point, while hoping it won't accidentally be a nerf.

[Anchoku.8142]

@Aigleborgne.2981 said:

@Kuulpb.5412 said:

@"Josiah.2967" said:All I can say is that I want this back.

A DPS cooldowns should be DPS cooldowns. Sustain cooldowns should be sustain cooldowns.

Without it, the bandaid helped a lot. It allowed me to DPS more, and contribute more. Even using it as a full DPS cooldown, we are not close to top DPS. Perhaps the best option is really buffing GS. That would help a lot.

I know this is a "me" thing, but I don't get why people don't like my Idea of a Complete Necromancer overhaul, I did my idea for the weapons and the traits corresponding to the weapons, but People seemed to hate my idea. I had made greatsword into a more Tank-ish thing where you would have a beam that would apply taunt but not let the enemy attack so it'd be like a Pull but a channelled pull.

Because a complete overhaul is less likely to happen than minor adjustments. And even less an overhaul following player suggestions.It might have been possible with a dedicated balance team that communicates with their players. Look at the reality: we are facing a wall. Asking for slight adjustments is already hard to get some changes. So asking more is just a dream...

Reaper is a power-AoE spec with an option for condi-AoE. If you want a tank-spec, are you willing to drop the dps or the AoE to get that?

[Nimon.7840]

@Anchoku.8142 said:

@Aigleborgne.2981 said:

@Kuulpb.5412 said:

@"Josiah.2967" said:All I can say is that I want this back.

A DPS cooldowns should be DPS cooldowns. Sustain cooldowns should be sustain cooldowns.

Without it, the bandaid helped a lot. It allowed me to DPS more, and contribute more. Even using it as a full DPS cooldown, we are not close to top DPS. Perhaps the best option is really buffing GS. That would help a lot.

I know this is a "me" thing, but I don't get why people don't like my Idea of a Complete Necromancer overhaul, I did my idea for the weapons and the traits corresponding to the weapons, but People seemed to hate my idea. I had made greatsword into a more Tank-ish thing where you would have a beam that would apply taunt but not let the enemy attack so it'd be like a Pull but a channelled pull.

Because a complete overhaul is less likely to happen than minor adjustments. And even less an overhaul following player suggestions.It might have been possible with a dedicated balance team that communicates with their players. Look at the reality: we are facing a wall. Asking for slight adjustments is already hard to get some changes. So asking more is just a dream...

Reaper is a power-AoE spec with an option for condi-AoE. If you want a tank-spec, are you willing to drop the dps or the AoE to get that?

Why should we drop something, that other classes get for free?

[Axl.8924]

@Kuulpb.5412 said:

@"Josiah.2967" said:All I can say is that I want this back.

A DPS cooldowns should be DPS cooldowns. Sustain cooldowns should be sustain cooldowns.

Without it, the bandaid helped a lot. It allowed me to DPS more, and contribute more. Even using it as a full DPS cooldown, we are not close to top DPS. Perhaps the best option is really buffing GS. That would help a lot.

I know this is a "me" thing, but I don't get why people don't like my Idea of a Complete Necromancer overhaul, I did my idea for the weapons and the traits corresponding to the weapons, but People seemed to hate my idea. I had made greatsword into a more Tank-ish thing where you would have a beam that would apply taunt but not let the enemy attack so it'd be like a Pull but a channelled pull.

I merely said no because I thought it would be impossible to get people to agree with it.

I hd a feeling some folks would protest a full plus I think we don't need complete overhaul just a overhaul of the defensives. Reaper is pretty solid, but for instance I think we should have to take cores to have sustain like some other classes where the elites are stronger but the core traits sustain them and are strong and add something. Ele has stuff like that, and I heard that guardian was pretty good about that, so why not necro?