GW2's odd version of flying . . . Why can't your mount, like Just. Fly.??

[ProtoGunner.4953]

@BlueJin.4127 said:One thing I want to comment on. Some posters are claiming that flying mounts creating problems for WoW is a fact. This, actually, is not a fact, but an opinion. I, too, am guilty of just passing off my comment as fact in my previous post, so I'm not making excuses. Just wanted to clear things up for those who may not have played WoW.

Flying mounts in WoW let players skip some enemies on their way to their objectives. For players who believe being grounded results in just the right amount of combat and engagement, flying mounts are a problem. However, for players who believe that they're fighting too often while grounded, flying is a solution. For former players, yes, flying mounts are a problem. But flying mounts being a problem isn't a fact because it is these players' opinion that the amount of combat they encounter while grounded is acceptable and flying results in too little combat.

To explain another way, imagine if they increased WoW's aggro range so that grounded players must fight all enemies within render distance. Would these players still think flying over these enemies is a problem? No. So if the aggro range is reduced little by little, at what point does flying over enemies go from a solution to a problem? That's an opinion that varies by player and no one player's opinion is any more right than another's.

I'm sure some anti-fliers will say flying broke more than just skipping enemies in WoW. But again, that's just an opinion because for pro-fliers, flying created an immersive experience and new design that can't be mimicked by being grounded. No matter how some people claim their side as fact, it is not a fact.

Well said, flying was just awesome in WoW and it should be in GW2. People just use a mount and pass enemies anyways, if they need to go to a certain location. It's such a null and void argument, it's unbearable.

[Turkeyspit.3965]

@arielwind.8921 said:Skyscale can do too much. Since skyscale can skip EVERYTHING.I still think mount was mistake. Guild Wars 2 core map was fun to exploring, still HoT with glider was nice somehow. Worried about how Anet can make the terrain after the launch of this flying mount.So i hope there's a map where flying mounts are restricted, but know it won't happen because Anet selling mount skins for product.

Mounts allowed the devs to change their design philosophy with regards to maps. PoF maps have a fraction of the waypoints you saw in Core, and still less than HoT, as (I figure) the assumption was the mounts would help get you around faster, and therefore you don't need to port as often.

I am also curious about how the skyscale will impact future maps. The Griffon certainly helped make the LW S4 maps easier to navigate, but I feel the Skyscale is even better at helping you deal with terrain, and had a chance to see this when I went back to pre-PoF stuff. The Skyscale made map completion on Ember Bay, Draconis Mons and Ember Bay a veritable joke. And Silverwastes? Lol, if you don't have the JP and the badge collections all done, just grab the skyscale as it can't get any easier.

So now I wonder if ANET will design future maps with the assumption that everyone has the skyscale (which they really can't), or will it truly trivialize getting around as many are suggesting? Only time will tell.

[Maikimaik.1974]

Just a quick note:

Writinglike thatdoes notmake you seemintellectual or poetic.

It just makes your comments incredibly hard to read. I've skipped most of the stuff you wrote because it's exhausting and overcomplicated to read.Please don't take this as a personal attack. I just believe that more people would take you seriously and listen to what you're saying if you'd stop writing like that.

[tnarrant.9714]

Mounts are a gimmick in the game. Just like break-bars and ridiculous boss AoE patterns and cooldowns on skills. None of that makes much sense in the context of the game world. Why would you only be able to cast something every 30 or 40 seconds? Why would a monster throw down striated rings of damage? Why would a living mount with wings have to continually descend? It's all for the sake of adding things that take time and attention, which strikes you as tedium or fun depending on your predispositions. So you either enjoy it, put up with it, or give up on it.

[nosleepdemon.1368]

@ProtoGunner.4953 said:

@BlueJin.4127 said:One thing I want to comment on. Some posters are claiming that flying mounts creating problems for WoW is a fact. This, actually, is not a fact, but an opinion. I, too, am guilty of just passing off my comment as fact in my previous post, so I'm not making excuses. Just wanted to clear things up for those who may not have played WoW.

Flying mounts in WoW let players skip some enemies on their way to their objectives. For players who believe being grounded results in just the right amount of combat and engagement, flying mounts are a problem. However, for players who believe that they're fighting too often while grounded, flying is a solution. For former players, yes, flying mounts are a problem. But flying mounts being a problem isn't a fact because it is these players' opinion that the amount of combat they encounter while grounded is acceptable and flying results in too little combat.

To explain another way, imagine if they increased WoW's aggro range so that grounded players must fight all enemies within render distance. Would these players still think flying over these enemies is a problem? No. So if the aggro range is reduced little by little, at what point does flying over enemies go from a solution to a problem? That's an

opinion

that varies by player and no one player's opinion is any more right than another's.

I'm sure some anti-fliers will say flying broke more than just skipping enemies in WoW. But again, that's just an opinion because for pro-fliers, flying created an immersive experience and new design that can't be mimicked by being grounded. No matter how some people claim their side as fact, it is not a fact.

Well said, flying was just awesome in WoW and it should be in GW2. People just use a mount and pass enemies anyways, if they need to go to a certain location. It's such a null and void argument, it's unbearable.

Null and void eh? So null and void that that is the very reason the developers don't want to add permanent flying - because it trivialises content, and why Blizzard regretted adding flying and now begrudgingly make it an unlock because pandora's box can't be shut.

But okay, sure, Gary the Gaming Guru over here knows it's an unbearably boring argument.

[ProtoGunner.4953]

@nosleepdemon.1368 said:

@ProtoGunner.4953 said:

@BlueJin.4127 said:One thing I want to comment on. Some posters are claiming that flying mounts creating problems for WoW is a fact. This, actually, is not a fact, but an opinion. I, too, am guilty of just passing off my comment as fact in my previous post, so I'm not making excuses. Just wanted to clear things up for those who may not have played WoW.

Flying mounts in WoW let players skip some enemies on their way to their objectives. For players who believe being grounded results in just the right amount of combat and engagement, flying mounts are a problem. However, for players who believe that they're fighting too often while grounded, flying is a solution. For former players, yes, flying mounts are a problem. But flying mounts being a problem isn't a fact because it is these players' opinion that the amount of combat they encounter while grounded is acceptable and flying results in too little combat.

To explain another way, imagine if they increased WoW's aggro range so that grounded players must fight all enemies within render distance. Would these players still think flying over these enemies is a problem? No. So if the aggro range is reduced little by little, at what point does flying over enemies go from a solution to a problem? That's an

opinion

that varies by player and no one player's opinion is any more right than another's.

I'm sure some anti-fliers will say flying broke more than just skipping enemies in WoW. But again, that's just an opinion because for pro-fliers, flying created an immersive experience and new design that can't be mimicked by being grounded. No matter how some people claim their side as fact, it is not a fact.

Well said, flying was just awesome in WoW and it should be in GW2. People just use a mount and pass enemies anyways, if they need to go to a certain location. It's such a null and void argument, it's unbearable.

Null and void eh? So null and void that that is the very reason the developers don't want to add permanent flying - because it trivialises content, and why Blizzard regretted adding flying and now begrudgingly make it an unlock because pandora's box can't be shut.

But okay, sure, Gary the Gaming Guru over here knows it's an unbearably boring argument.

Sorry, but in my opinion: if someone wants to skip things, let them do it. It just makes stuff more accessible and let's face it, open world is trivial enough.

[Ryukai.6524]

To me this type of 'flight' feels more realistic.

Animals that develop flight in the real world do so by evolving hollow bones (or in the case of pterodactyls, Air-sacks) and therefore are much MUCH lighter than what their size portrays to us. Whilst our characters are ground based 'animals' and would therefore have solid bones. Therefore your mount has to try and lift your heavy backside off of the ground (which they are not evolved to do) and are going to have it's muscles tire out after a few flaps and then has to lock it's wings in place and glide back down with you :P (that or just crash to the ground and kill you ;D )

[Maikimaik.1974]

@ProtoGunner.4953 said:

@nosleepdemon.1368 said:

@ProtoGunner.4953 said:

@BlueJin.4127 said:One thing I want to comment on. Some posters are claiming that flying mounts creating problems for WoW is a fact. This, actually, is not a fact, but an opinion. I, too, am guilty of just passing off my comment as fact in my previous post, so I'm not making excuses. Just wanted to clear things up for those who may not have played WoW.

Flying mounts in WoW let players skip some enemies on their way to their objectives. For players who believe being grounded results in just the right amount of combat and engagement, flying mounts are a problem. However, for players who believe that they're fighting too often while grounded, flying is a solution. For former players, yes, flying mounts are a problem. But flying mounts being a problem isn't a fact because it is these players' opinion that the amount of combat they encounter while grounded is acceptable and flying results in too little combat.

To explain another way, imagine if they increased WoW's aggro range so that grounded players must fight all enemies within render distance. Would these players still think flying over these enemies is a problem? No. So if the aggro range is reduced little by little, at what point does flying over enemies go from a solution to a problem? That's an

opinion

that varies by player and no one player's opinion is any more right than another's.

I'm sure some anti-fliers will say flying broke more than just skipping enemies in WoW. But again, that's just an opinion because for pro-fliers, flying created an immersive experience and new design that can't be mimicked by being grounded. No matter how some people claim their side as fact, it is not a fact.

Well said, flying was just awesome in WoW and it should be in GW2. People just use a mount and pass enemies anyways, if they need to go to a certain location. It's such a null and void argument, it's unbearable.

Null and void eh? So null and void that that is the very reason the developers don't want to add permanent flying - because it trivialises content, and why Blizzard regretted adding flying and now begrudgingly make it an unlock because pandora's box can't be shut.

But okay, sure, Gary the Gaming Guru over here knows it's an unbearably boring argument.

Sorry, but in my opinion: if someone wants to skip things, let them do it. It just makes stuff more accessible and let's face it, open world is trivial enough.

If it's trivial enough there's absolutely no reason to make it skippable.

[derd.6413]

@ProtoGunner.4953 said:

@nosleepdemon.1368 said:

@ProtoGunner.4953 said:

@BlueJin.4127 said:One thing I want to comment on. Some posters are claiming that flying mounts creating problems for WoW is a fact. This, actually, is not a fact, but an opinion. I, too, am guilty of just passing off my comment as fact in my previous post, so I'm not making excuses. Just wanted to clear things up for those who may not have played WoW.

Flying mounts in WoW let players skip some enemies on their way to their objectives. For players who believe being grounded results in just the right amount of combat and engagement, flying mounts are a problem. However, for players who believe that they're fighting too often while grounded, flying is a solution. For former players, yes, flying mounts are a problem. But flying mounts being a problem isn't a fact because it is these players' opinion that the amount of combat they encounter while grounded is acceptable and flying results in too little combat.

To explain another way, imagine if they increased WoW's aggro range so that grounded players must fight all enemies within render distance. Would these players still think flying over these enemies is a problem? No. So if the aggro range is reduced little by little, at what point does flying over enemies go from a solution to a problem? That's an

opinion

that varies by player and no one player's opinion is any more right than another's.

I'm sure some anti-fliers will say flying broke more than just skipping enemies in WoW. But again, that's just an opinion because for pro-fliers, flying created an immersive experience and new design that can't be mimicked by being grounded. No matter how some people claim their side as fact, it is not a fact.

Well said, flying was just awesome in WoW and it should be in GW2. People just use a mount and pass enemies anyways, if they need to go to a certain location. It's such a null and void argument, it's unbearable.

Null and void eh? So null and void that that is the very reason the developers don't want to add permanent flying - because it trivialises content, and why Blizzard regretted adding flying and now begrudgingly make it an unlock because pandora's box can't be shut.

But okay, sure, Gary the Gaming Guru over here knows it's an unbearably boring argument.

Sorry, but in my opinion: if someone wants to skip things, let them do it. It just makes stuff more accessible and let's face it, open world is trivial enough.

because at that point you might as well just put a link to a let's play that give you all rewards for clicking on it

[nosleepdemon.1368]

@ProtoGunner.4953 said:

@nosleepdemon.1368 said:

@ProtoGunner.4953 said:

@BlueJin.4127 said:One thing I want to comment on. Some posters are claiming that flying mounts creating problems for WoW is a fact. This, actually, is not a fact, but an opinion. I, too, am guilty of just passing off my comment as fact in my previous post, so I'm not making excuses. Just wanted to clear things up for those who may not have played WoW.

Flying mounts in WoW let players skip some enemies on their way to their objectives. For players who believe being grounded results in just the right amount of combat and engagement, flying mounts are a problem. However, for players who believe that they're fighting too often while grounded, flying is a solution. For former players, yes, flying mounts are a problem. But flying mounts being a problem isn't a fact because it is these players' opinion that the amount of combat they encounter while grounded is acceptable and flying results in too little combat.

To explain another way, imagine if they increased WoW's aggro range so that grounded players must fight all enemies within render distance. Would these players still think flying over these enemies is a problem? No. So if the aggro range is reduced little by little, at what point does flying over enemies go from a solution to a problem? That's an

opinion

that varies by player and no one player's opinion is any more right than another's.

I'm sure some anti-fliers will say flying broke more than just skipping enemies in WoW. But again, that's just an opinion because for pro-fliers, flying created an immersive experience and new design that can't be mimicked by being grounded. No matter how some people claim their side as fact, it is not a fact.

Well said, flying was just awesome in WoW and it should be in GW2. People just use a mount and pass enemies anyways, if they need to go to a certain location. It's such a null and void argument, it's unbearable.

Null and void eh? So null and void that that is the very reason the developers don't want to add permanent flying - because it trivialises content, and why Blizzard regretted adding flying and now begrudgingly make it an unlock because pandora's box can't be shut.

But okay, sure, Gary the Gaming Guru over here knows it's an unbearably boring argument.

Sorry, but in my opinion: if someone wants to skip things, let them do it. It just makes stuff more accessible and let's face it, open world is trivial enough.

If someone wants to skip things, letting them do it is bad practice. Humans are really, really good at taking the easy way out and then training their minds to rely on this as a crutch. A great example is our reliance on quick dopamine hits from looking at our phones and seeing some likes on things we post. Once this becomes habit it is hard to break, and even worse, the reward is rather empty. Players should not be encouraged to play games using the most efficient, empty and exclusionary method possible. This is especially true of multiplayer games where player cooperation and a shared experience is essential. If you as a player wish to skip the entire game world to zip between discrete objectives there are two possibilities:

1. The game world isn't engaging enough. Or...
2. Perhaps you have out grown the game, and need a break.

In either case, trivialising content even further so that you can reach your reward sooner, instead of enjoying the journey itself, is a really terrible game design rabbit hole to plunge down from which there is rarely any escape.

[Rico.6873]

It's fine the way it is, items, orbs could be added to improve the power of the skyscale at certain places but that's all what's needed

[ProtoGunner.4953]

@Maikimaik.1974 said:

@ProtoGunner.4953 said:

@nosleepdemon.1368 said:

@ProtoGunner.4953 said:

@BlueJin.4127 said:One thing I want to comment on. Some posters are claiming that flying mounts creating problems for WoW is a fact. This, actually, is not a fact, but an opinion. I, too, am guilty of just passing off my comment as fact in my previous post, so I'm not making excuses. Just wanted to clear things up for those who may not have played WoW.

Flying mounts in WoW let players skip some enemies on their way to their objectives. For players who believe being grounded results in just the right amount of combat and engagement, flying mounts are a problem. However, for players who believe that they're fighting too often while grounded, flying is a solution. For former players, yes, flying mounts are a problem. But flying mounts being a problem isn't a fact because it is these players' opinion that the amount of combat they encounter while grounded is acceptable and flying results in too little combat.

To explain another way, imagine if they increased WoW's aggro range so that grounded players must fight all enemies within render distance. Would these players still think flying over these enemies is a problem? No. So if the aggro range is reduced little by little, at what point does flying over enemies go from a solution to a problem? That's an

opinion

that varies by player and no one player's opinion is any more right than another's.

I'm sure some anti-fliers will say flying broke more than just skipping enemies in WoW. But again, that's just an opinion because for pro-fliers, flying created an immersive experience and new design that can't be mimicked by being grounded. No matter how some people claim their side as fact, it is not a fact.

Well said, flying was just awesome in WoW and it should be in GW2. People just use a mount and pass enemies anyways, if they need to go to a certain location. It's such a null and void argument, it's unbearable.

Null and void eh? So null and void that that is the very reason the developers don't want to add permanent flying - because it trivialises content, and why Blizzard regretted adding flying and now begrudgingly make it an unlock because pandora's box can't be shut.

But okay, sure, Gary the Gaming Guru over here knows it's an unbearably boring argument.

Sorry, but in my opinion: if someone wants to skip things, let them do it. It just makes stuff more accessible and let's face it, open world is trivial enough.

If it's trivial enough there's absolutely no reason to make it skippable.

I made a mistake: I meant, since it is trivial anyways but annoying/boring lets skip some annoying irrelevant loot dropping enemies anyways since in GW2 does that everyone.

[ProtoGunner.4953]

@derd.6413 said:

@ProtoGunner.4953 said:

@nosleepdemon.1368 said:

@ProtoGunner.4953 said:

@BlueJin.4127 said:One thing I want to comment on. Some posters are claiming that flying mounts creating problems for WoW is a fact. This, actually, is not a fact, but an opinion. I, too, am guilty of just passing off my comment as fact in my previous post, so I'm not making excuses. Just wanted to clear things up for those who may not have played WoW.

Flying mounts in WoW let players skip some enemies on their way to their objectives. For players who believe being grounded results in just the right amount of combat and engagement, flying mounts are a problem. However, for players who believe that they're fighting too often while grounded, flying is a solution. For former players, yes, flying mounts are a problem. But flying mounts being a problem isn't a fact because it is these players' opinion that the amount of combat they encounter while grounded is acceptable and flying results in too little combat.

To explain another way, imagine if they increased WoW's aggro range so that grounded players must fight all enemies within render distance. Would these players still think flying over these enemies is a problem? No. So if the aggro range is reduced little by little, at what point does flying over enemies go from a solution to a problem? That's an

opinion

that varies by player and no one player's opinion is any more right than another's.

I'm sure some anti-fliers will say flying broke more than just skipping enemies in WoW. But again, that's just an opinion because for pro-fliers, flying created an immersive experience and new design that can't be mimicked by being grounded. No matter how some people claim their side as fact, it is not a fact.

Well said, flying was just awesome in WoW and it should be in GW2. People just use a mount and pass enemies anyways, if they need to go to a certain location. It's such a null and void argument, it's unbearable.

Null and void eh? So null and void that that is the very reason the developers don't want to add permanent flying - because it trivialises content, and why Blizzard regretted adding flying and now begrudgingly make it an unlock because pandora's box can't be shut.

But okay, sure, Gary the Gaming Guru over here knows it's an unbearably boring argument.

Sorry, but in my opinion: if someone wants to skip things, let them do it. It just makes stuff more accessible and let's face it, open world is trivial enough.

because at that point you might as well just put a link to a let's play that give you all rewards for clicking on it

Mate, I play hardcore games like Demon's/Dark Souls and Sekiro. But let's face it: in an MMO you play sometimes thousands of hours. I myself played this game since beta and for about 5k hours. So let me just skip some parts I visited dozens of times. It can be my decision not to skip it. What is your problem with it? Open world parts in MMOs should be easy/accessible and a lot of people do that for leisure and not for 'work'. You have fractals and raids for that.

[nosleepdemon.1368]

@ProtoGunner.4953 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@ProtoGunner.4953 said:

@nosleepdemon.1368 said:

@ProtoGunner.4953 said:

@"BlueJin.4127" said:One thing I want to comment on. Some posters are claiming that flying mounts creating problems for WoW is a fact. This, actually, is not a fact, but an opinion. I, too, am guilty of just passing off my comment as fact in my previous post, so I'm not making excuses. Just wanted to clear things up for those who may not have played WoW.

Flying mounts in WoW let players skip some enemies on their way to their objectives. For players who believe being grounded results in just the right amount of combat and engagement, flying mounts are a problem. However, for players who believe that they're fighting too often while grounded, flying is a solution. For former players, yes, flying mounts are a problem. But flying mounts being a problem isn't a fact because it is these players' opinion that the amount of combat they encounter while grounded is acceptable and flying results in too little combat.

To explain another way, imagine if they increased WoW's aggro range so that grounded players must fight all enemies within render distance. Would these players still think flying over these enemies is a problem? No. So if the aggro range is reduced little by little, at what point does flying over enemies go from a solution to a problem? That's an

opinion

that varies by player and no one player's opinion is any more right than another's.

I'm sure some anti-fliers will say flying broke more than just skipping enemies in WoW. But again, that's just an opinion because for pro-fliers, flying created an immersive experience and new design that can't be mimicked by being grounded. No matter how some people claim their side as fact, it is not a fact.

Well said, flying was just awesome in WoW and it should be in GW2. People just use a mount and pass enemies anyways, if they need to go to a certain location. It's such a null and void argument, it's unbearable.

Null and void eh? So null and void that that is the very reason the developers don't want to add permanent flying - because it trivialises content, and why Blizzard regretted adding flying and now begrudgingly make it an unlock because pandora's box can't be shut.

But okay, sure, Gary the Gaming Guru over here knows it's an unbearably boring argument.

Sorry, but in my opinion: if someone wants to skip things, let them do it. It just makes stuff more accessible and let's face it, open world is trivial enough.

because at that point you might as well just put a link to a let's play that give you all rewards for clicking on it

Mate, I play hardcore games like Demon's/Dark Souls and Sekiro. But let's face it: in an MMO you play sometimes thousands of hours. I myself played this game since beta and for about 5k hours. So let me just skip some parts I visited dozens of times. It can be

my

decision not to skip it. What is your problem with it? Open world parts in MMOs should be easy/accessible and a lot of people do that for leisure and not for 'work'. You have fractals and raids for that.

Because this isn't about just your decision, and you don't seem to understand that. First of all, no part of a game should ever be considered 'work'. We don't travel to 'work' in an MMO, that's for real life. An MMO is at its best when players are fully immersed in its world, and this means that the journey is more important than the destination. Who cares how many hours you have sunk into the game, or what other games you play? It seems you fit into the option 2 I presented - if you are at the point where only certain parts of the game interest you, then that's a sign you need a break, not that the game design needs to be bent to your will so that you and everyone else in your position can simply skip to "the best bits". Skipping to "the best bits" is, as I am growing tired of pointing out, the absolute best way to kill an MMO game world dead. Thankfully, the developers can quite clearly see this game design trap and for now at least, have some safe guards in place to stop themselves from falling into it.

[Julischka Bean.7491]

@Kabuki Theatre.9752 said:

@Sila.6748 said:

@Kabuki Theatre.9752 said:

@Ashantara.8731 said:

@Kabuki Theatre.9752 said:And how Exactlywould it "ruin the game."?

Before mounts were introduced, the game had a set traveling mechanic: waypoints, plus by foot. If you could fly over everything just like that, not only would old means of traveling become obsolete, new maps would also no longer pose a challenge at all when it comes to map completion (as verticality would no longer matter). The point of map completion is to thoroughly explore a new map.

I would like to ask you one simple question ---How is it that so many other MMOshave implemented flying creatures into their games,without completely destroying their creations?

Is this not possible within the GW2 environment?OR

is GW2 the great exception to the rule?

Propose a flying mount in Guild Wars 2, and there’s an obvious challenge in that its content to date has been designed with players’ feet firmly on the ground.

“We knew we had to be careful with how we went about tackling ‘flying’ in the game,” says Cronacher. “If we did free flight it would break a lot of content and invalidate the other mounts, which we didn’t want to do. We had to find a balance of feeling like the flight was natural and fun, but focused on player skill and manipulation, rather than free omnidirectional flight.”

They dont

WANT

omnidirectional free flight. This is what they have chosen for their game. If you don't like it, this game is not for you.

Again, yet another response of --

If you don't like that game,pick your bat, ball, and gloves,and go somewhere else.

Brilliant.Just Brilliant.

Well...this is how Anet wants to do things and it is their game, and their rules.

And as someone above said straight flying would invalidate the other mounts...and I happen to like the ways my Raptor, Springer, Skimmer, Jackel, and Skyscale work.

WOW, City Of Heroes, and I don't know who else has free flight.. you could choose one of those for a flying fix.

Lisa.

[Maikimaik.1974]

@ProtoGunner.4953 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@ProtoGunner.4953 said:

@nosleepdemon.1368 said:

@ProtoGunner.4953 said:

@BlueJin.4127 said:One thing I want to comment on. Some posters are claiming that flying mounts creating problems for WoW is a fact. This, actually, is not a fact, but an opinion. I, too, am guilty of just passing off my comment as fact in my previous post, so I'm not making excuses. Just wanted to clear things up for those who may not have played WoW.

Flying mounts in WoW let players skip some enemies on their way to their objectives. For players who believe being grounded results in just the right amount of combat and engagement, flying mounts are a problem. However, for players who believe that they're fighting too often while grounded, flying is a solution. For former players, yes, flying mounts are a problem. But flying mounts being a problem isn't a fact because it is these players' opinion that the amount of combat they encounter while grounded is acceptable and flying results in too little combat.

To explain another way, imagine if they increased WoW's aggro range so that grounded players must fight all enemies within render distance. Would these players still think flying over these enemies is a problem? No. So if the aggro range is reduced little by little, at what point does flying over enemies go from a solution to a problem? That's an

opinion

that varies by player and no one player's opinion is any more right than another's.

I'm sure some anti-fliers will say flying broke more than just skipping enemies in WoW. But again, that's just an opinion because for pro-fliers, flying created an immersive experience and new design that can't be mimicked by being grounded. No matter how some people claim their side as fact, it is not a fact.

Well said, flying was just awesome in WoW and it should be in GW2. People just use a mount and pass enemies anyways, if they need to go to a certain location. It's such a null and void argument, it's unbearable.

Null and void eh? So null and void that that is the very reason the developers don't want to add permanent flying - because it trivialises content, and why Blizzard regretted adding flying and now begrudgingly make it an unlock because pandora's box can't be shut.

But okay, sure, Gary the Gaming Guru over here knows it's an unbearably boring argument.

Sorry, but in my opinion: if someone wants to skip things, let them do it. It just makes stuff more accessible and let's face it, open world is trivial enough.

because at that point you might as well just put a link to a let's play that give you all rewards for clicking on it

Mate, I play hardcore games like Demon's/Dark Souls and Sekiro. But let's face it: in an MMO you play sometimes thousands of hours. I myself played this game since beta and for about 5k hours. So let me just skip some parts I visited dozens of times. It can be

my

decision not to skip it. What is your problem with it? Open world parts in MMOs should be easy/accessible and a lot of people do that for leisure and not for 'work'. You have fractals and raids for that.

Great. I'd love to skip the grind for my next legendary, it's MY decision to skip it, so I SHOULD have the option to skip it. Grinding is trivial and annoying enough, so just let me skip it.

People won't play content that's easily skippable, because we always take the path of least resistance. It doesn't matter if the content is fun or annoying, if it's skippable, most people will skip it. That's why open world content should not be skippable by just flying over it, because nobody would play open world content anymore.

[Julischka Bean.7491]

@nosleepdemon.1368 said:

@ProtoGunner.4953 said:

@nosleepdemon.1368 said:

@ProtoGunner.4953 said:

@BlueJin.4127 said:One thing I want to comment on. Some posters are claiming that flying mounts creating problems for WoW is a fact. This, actually, is not a fact, but an opinion. I, too, am guilty of just passing off my comment as fact in my previous post, so I'm not making excuses. Just wanted to clear things up for those who may not have played WoW.

Flying mounts in WoW let players skip some enemies on their way to their objectives. For players who believe being grounded results in just the right amount of combat and engagement, flying mounts are a problem. However, for players who believe that they're fighting too often while grounded, flying is a solution. For former players, yes, flying mounts are a problem. But flying mounts being a problem isn't a fact because it is these players' opinion that the amount of combat they encounter while grounded is acceptable and flying results in too little combat.

To explain another way, imagine if they increased WoW's aggro range so that grounded players must fight all enemies within render distance. Would these players still think flying over these enemies is a problem? No. So if the aggro range is reduced little by little, at what point does flying over enemies go from a solution to a problem? That's an

opinion

that varies by player and no one player's opinion is any more right than another's.

I'm sure some anti-fliers will say flying broke more than just skipping enemies in WoW. But again, that's just an opinion because for pro-fliers, flying created an immersive experience and new design that can't be mimicked by being grounded. No matter how some people claim their side as fact, it is not a fact.

Well said, flying was just awesome in WoW and it should be in GW2. People just use a mount and pass enemies anyways, if they need to go to a certain location. It's such a null and void argument, it's unbearable.

Null and void eh? So null and void that that is the very reason the developers don't want to add permanent flying - because it trivialises content, and why Blizzard regretted adding flying and now begrudgingly make it an unlock because pandora's box can't be shut.

But okay, sure, Gary the Gaming Guru over here knows it's an unbearably boring argument.

Sorry, but in my opinion: if someone wants to skip things, let them do it. It just makes stuff more accessible and let's face it, open world is trivial enough.

If someone wants to skip things, letting them do it is bad practice. Humans are really, really good at taking the easy way out and then training their minds to rely on this as a crutch. A great example is our reliance on quick dopamine hits from looking at our phones and seeing some likes on things we post. Once this becomes habit it is hard to break, and even worse, the reward is rather empty. Players should not be encouraged to play games using the most efficient, empty and exclusionary method possible. This is especially true of multiplayer games where player cooperation and a shared experience is essential. If you as a player wish to skip the entire game world to zip between discrete objectives there are two possibilities:

1. The game world isn't engaging enough. Or...
2. Perhaps you have out grown the game, and need a break.

In either case, trivialising content even further so that you can reach your reward sooner, instead of enjoying the journey itself, is a really terrible game design rabbit hole to plunge down from which there is rarely any escape.

I agree..with one exception.

I am the worst Jumper you ever did see.

I bought the Pungent Skyscale treats...but... because I knew they were there, that gave me confidence to go out and actually try to do the jumping puzzles.

To my surprise, because of that, the Jumping Puzzles collection was the second of my best memories of the great Skyscale adventure...the first being the Rifts.

So, sometimes, giving people something like the Pungent Treats is actually a good thing to do.

[Sojourner.4621]

@Julischka Bean.7491 said:

@nosleepdemon.1368 said:

@ProtoGunner.4953 said:

@nosleepdemon.1368 said:

@ProtoGunner.4953 said:

@BlueJin.4127 said:One thing I want to comment on. Some posters are claiming that flying mounts creating problems for WoW is a fact. This, actually, is not a fact, but an opinion. I, too, am guilty of just passing off my comment as fact in my previous post, so I'm not making excuses. Just wanted to clear things up for those who may not have played WoW.

Flying mounts in WoW let players skip some enemies on their way to their objectives. For players who believe being grounded results in just the right amount of combat and engagement, flying mounts are a problem. However, for players who believe that they're fighting too often while grounded, flying is a solution. For former players, yes, flying mounts are a problem. But flying mounts being a problem isn't a fact because it is these players' opinion that the amount of combat they encounter while grounded is acceptable and flying results in too little combat.

To explain another way, imagine if they increased WoW's aggro range so that grounded players must fight all enemies within render distance. Would these players still think flying over these enemies is a problem? No. So if the aggro range is reduced little by little, at what point does flying over enemies go from a solution to a problem? That's an

opinion

that varies by player and no one player's opinion is any more right than another's.

I'm sure some anti-fliers will say flying broke more than just skipping enemies in WoW. But again, that's just an opinion because for pro-fliers, flying created an immersive experience and new design that can't be mimicked by being grounded. No matter how some people claim their side as fact, it is not a fact.

Well said, flying was just awesome in WoW and it should be in GW2. People just use a mount and pass enemies anyways, if they need to go to a certain location. It's such a null and void argument, it's unbearable.

Null and void eh? So null and void that that is the very reason the developers don't want to add permanent flying - because it trivialises content, and why Blizzard regretted adding flying and now begrudgingly make it an unlock because pandora's box can't be shut.

But okay, sure, Gary the Gaming Guru over here knows it's an unbearably boring argument.

Sorry, but in my opinion: if someone wants to skip things, let them do it. It just makes stuff more accessible and let's face it, open world is trivial enough.

If someone wants to skip things, letting them do it is bad practice. Humans are really, really good at taking the easy way out and then training their minds to rely on this as a crutch. A great example is our reliance on quick dopamine hits from looking at our phones and seeing some likes on things we post. Once this becomes habit it is hard to break, and even worse, the reward is rather empty. Players should not be encouraged to play games using the most efficient, empty and exclusionary method possible. This is especially true of multiplayer games where player cooperation and a shared experience is essential. If you as a player wish to skip the entire game world to zip between discrete objectives there are two possibilities:

1. The game world isn't engaging enough. Or...
2. Perhaps you have out grown the game, and need a break.

In either case, trivialising content even further so that you can reach your reward sooner, instead of enjoying the journey itself, is a really terrible game design rabbit hole to plunge down from which there is rarely any escape.

I agree..with one exception.

I am the worst Jumper you ever did see.

I bought the Pungent Skyscale treats...but... because I knew they were there, that gave me confidence to go out and actually try to do the jumping puzzles.

To my surprise, because of that, the Jumping Puzzles collection was the second of my best memories of the great Skyscale adventure...the first being the Rifts.

So, sometimes, giving people something like the Pungent Treats is actually a good thing to do.

Yeah I only skipped four of the zones with pungent treats because the involved tasks didn't work well with my schedule (Shadow behemoth) or I just hate that particular JP (Griffonrook).

[nosleepdemon.1368]

I'd say that the pungent treats aren't entirely the same, in that they help for a single task instead of being a game wide effect. If you could use them to complete any objective then that would be a closer comparison to WoW style flying.

Glad that they helped you both, I've yet to get on the Skyscale train, but after I finish my legendary back piece I may get the Skyscale for slightly more convenient world completion, since I'll need to do it again to make more legendary items.

[Etria.3642]

@ProtoGunner.4953 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@ProtoGunner.4953 said:

@nosleepdemon.1368 said:

@ProtoGunner.4953 said:

@BlueJin.4127 said:One thing I want to comment on. Some posters are claiming that flying mounts creating problems for WoW is a fact. This, actually, is not a fact, but an opinion. I, too, am guilty of just passing off my comment as fact in my previous post, so I'm not making excuses. Just wanted to clear things up for those who may not have played WoW.

Flying mounts in WoW let players skip some enemies on their way to their objectives. For players who believe being grounded results in just the right amount of combat and engagement, flying mounts are a problem. However, for players who believe that they're fighting too often while grounded, flying is a solution. For former players, yes, flying mounts are a problem. But flying mounts being a problem isn't a fact because it is these players' opinion that the amount of combat they encounter while grounded is acceptable and flying results in too little combat.

To explain another way, imagine if they increased WoW's aggro range so that grounded players must fight all enemies within render distance. Would these players still think flying over these enemies is a problem? No. So if the aggro range is reduced little by little, at what point does flying over enemies go from a solution to a problem? That's an

opinion

that varies by player and no one player's opinion is any more right than another's.

I'm sure some anti-fliers will say flying broke more than just skipping enemies in WoW. But again, that's just an opinion because for pro-fliers, flying created an immersive experience and new design that can't be mimicked by being grounded. No matter how some people claim their side as fact, it is not a fact.

Well said, flying was just awesome in WoW and it should be in GW2. People just use a mount and pass enemies anyways, if they need to go to a certain location. It's such a null and void argument, it's unbearable.

Null and void eh? So null and void that that is the very reason the developers don't want to add permanent flying - because it trivialises content, and why Blizzard regretted adding flying and now begrudgingly make it an unlock because pandora's box can't be shut.

But okay, sure, Gary the Gaming Guru over here knows it's an unbearably boring argument.

Sorry, but in my opinion: if someone wants to skip things, let them do it. It just makes stuff more accessible and let's face it, open world is trivial enough.

because at that point you might as well just put a link to a let's play that give you all rewards for clicking on it

Mate, I play hardcore games like Demon's/Dark Souls and Sekiro. But let's face it: in an MMO you play sometimes thousands of hours. I myself played this game since beta and for about 5k hours. So let me just skip some parts I visited dozens of times. It can be

my

decision not to skip it. What is your problem with it? Open world parts in MMOs should be easy/accessible and a lot of people do that for leisure and not for 'work'. You have fractals and raids for that.

So just waypoint?

[BlueJin.4127]

I think a lot of people are misinterpreting ProtoGunner. He’s not saying something like, “I beat HoT on 10 characters so let all my future characters just get an auto story complete, auto level 80, full exotic gears, and Knight of the Thorn ascended weapons for free.” Rather, it’s more like, “I fought all these enemies on the way to an event countless times. Now, I just want to run past these enemies that have nothing to do with the event itself.”

It’s not an unreasonable request at all. How many repliers fight every enemy in their path on their way to something? I bet nobody. Everybody already runs past and skips enemies they don’t need to fight, and have done so since before mounts were even introduced.

And it’s not just running past enemies. Subsequent characters can skip story to get into new LWS maps with season teleport tomes. Players don’t have to do story dungeon before playing explorable dungeon, as long as somebody else has explorable unlocked. Players are not forced to play through HoT story before joining Dragonstand meta. The list goes on and on. Should all these be unskippable?

Being able to skip some minor stuff is actually good for the game. Everybody just has their own preference on where they want to set the bar.

[derd.6413]

@BlueJin.4127 said:I think a lot of people are misinterpreting ProtoGunner. He’s not saying something like, “I beat HoT on 10 characters so let my all my future characters just get an auto story complete, full exotic gears, and Knight of the Thorn ascended weapons for free.” Rather, it’s more like, “I fought all these enemies on the way to an event countless times. Now, I just want to run past these enemies that have nothing to do with the event itself.”

It’s not an unreasonable request at all. How many repliers fight every enemy in their path on their way to something? I bet nobody. Everybody already runs past and skips enemies they don’t need to fight, and have done so since before mounts were even introduced.

And it’s not just running past enemies. Subsequent characters can skip story to get into new LWS maps with season teleport tomes. Players don’t have to do story dungeon before playing explorable dungeon, as long as somebody else has explorable unlocked. Players are not forced to play through HoT story before joining Dragonstand meta. The list goes on and on. Should all these be unskippable?

the thing your missing is that now you still require to interact with the environment, (plan your route and such or play the game) instead of flying over it like you're in minecraft's creative mode

[ProtoGunner.4953]

@Maikimaik.1974 said:

@ProtoGunner.4953 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@ProtoGunner.4953 said:

@nosleepdemon.1368 said:

@ProtoGunner.4953 said:

@BlueJin.4127 said:One thing I want to comment on. Some posters are claiming that flying mounts creating problems for WoW is a fact. This, actually, is not a fact, but an opinion. I, too, am guilty of just passing off my comment as fact in my previous post, so I'm not making excuses. Just wanted to clear things up for those who may not have played WoW.

Flying mounts in WoW let players skip some enemies on their way to their objectives. For players who believe being grounded results in just the right amount of combat and engagement, flying mounts are a problem. However, for players who believe that they're fighting too often while grounded, flying is a solution. For former players, yes, flying mounts are a problem. But flying mounts being a problem isn't a fact because it is these players' opinion that the amount of combat they encounter while grounded is acceptable and flying results in too little combat.

To explain another way, imagine if they increased WoW's aggro range so that grounded players must fight all enemies within render distance. Would these players still think flying over these enemies is a problem? No. So if the aggro range is reduced little by little, at what point does flying over enemies go from a solution to a problem? That's an

opinion

that varies by player and no one player's opinion is any more right than another's.

I'm sure some anti-fliers will say flying broke more than just skipping enemies in WoW. But again, that's just an opinion because for pro-fliers, flying created an immersive experience and new design that can't be mimicked by being grounded. No matter how some people claim their side as fact, it is not a fact.

Well said, flying was just awesome in WoW and it should be in GW2. People just use a mount and pass enemies anyways, if they need to go to a certain location. It's such a null and void argument, it's unbearable.

Null and void eh? So null and void that that is the very reason the developers don't want to add permanent flying - because it trivialises content, and why Blizzard regretted adding flying and now begrudgingly make it an unlock because pandora's box can't be shut.

But okay, sure, Gary the Gaming Guru over here knows it's an unbearably boring argument.

Sorry, but in my opinion: if someone wants to skip things, let them do it. It just makes stuff more accessible and let's face it, open world is trivial enough.

because at that point you might as well just put a link to a let's play that give you all rewards for clicking on it

Mate, I play hardcore games like Demon's/Dark Souls and Sekiro. But let's face it: in an MMO you play sometimes thousands of hours. I myself played this game since beta and for about 5k hours. So let me just skip some parts I visited dozens of times. It can be

my

decision not to skip it. What is your problem with it? Open world parts in MMOs should be easy/accessible and a lot of people do that for leisure and not for 'work'. You have fractals and raids for that.

Great. I'd love to skip the grind for my next legendary, it's MY decision to skip it, so I SHOULD have the option to skip it. Grinding is trivial and annoying enough, so just let me skip it.

I made about 7 legendaries, so that's that... Also, I do not talk about skipping grind or skipping whole parts of content. It's a vast difference between skipping an annoying convoluted part of the world with a flying mount to skipping whole parts of collections to get a rare item. But as it seems you are all well trained in dialectics and love to turn around arguments.

People won't play content that's easily skippable, because we always take the path of least resistance. It doesn't matter if the content is fun or annoying, if it's skippable, most people will skip it. That's why open world content should not be skippable by just flying over it, because nobody would play open world content anymore.

And what does that say? You juts debunked your own argument: if there was permanent flying and all would just skip it, why force people to not skip it? And what means 'nobody would play open world content anymore'. That's just irrelevant arguing. If you need to kill enemies for certain drops you sure have to kill them on foot.

You just all have the mindset of old and don't think out of the box. Just be cause 'perma flying' is labelled bad in MMOs you still think it's bad.

[Ayakaru.6583]

@"Kabuki Theatre.9752" said:And how Exactlywould it "ruin the game."?Seems to me other MMOs have not been"ruined"by having flying mounts that act just like real birds.

People will skip contentIt will invalidate the challenge of explorationGetting anywhere would be a joke

You played WoW, you should know flying killed that game

[ProtoGunner.4953]

@Ayakaru.6583 said:

@"Kabuki Theatre.9752" said:And how Exactlywould it "ruin the game."?Seems to me other MMOs have not been"ruined"by having flying mounts that act just like real birds.

People will skip contentIt will invalidate the challenge of explorationGetting anywhere would be a joke

You played WoW, you should know flying killed that game

Except that flying has been introduced during BC and BC til Lich King was the most successful time for WoW. From like 7 mio to 12 mio active accounts. There were fewer during Vanilla (no flying) and fewer during times where you couldn't fly anymore (Draenor or what that was called). Your arguing is, again like from most people here, biased.