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Can you please retest reaper changes.


Tiviana.2650

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The soul eater change was a bit much, it makes them super squishy now. Reaper isnt meta and yet you made it even worse than before. There are some good thoughts and suggestion here in this forum thread, i really think you should reevaluate the reaper changes. Test them better, use a chisel instead of a chainsaw. Do you devs play this game? Not to be factitious, but did you actually play this change on live and see how bad it is? I think you should pay attention to whats being said in the necromancer forum.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/82184/reaper-soul-eater-healing#latest

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Based on the scale of the complaints I wonder how people played before this trait got changed because they make it sounds like it was impossible...only it wasn't..Seen people saying this change destroyed the class but, again, how did they play it before this change?

Arguably when you compare the trait, even now, to the version of the trait beforehand it is a MUCH stronger trait.

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It was almost the only significant sustain available and now I feel like there's no alternative but to play even more aggressively if that's even possible. Somehow, I managed to get to plat on reaper which is silly to me, but I'm pretty sure I'm a wet paper bag waving a pointy stick around now.

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@Sigmoid.7082 said:Based on the scale of the complaints I wonder how people played before this trait got changed because they make it sounds like it was impossible...only it wasn't..Seen people saying this change destroyed the class but, again, how did they play it before this change?

Arguably when you compare the trait, even now, to the version of the trait beforehand it is a MUCH stronger trait.

The issue is not that people couldn't use it before, the issue is it got taken away with a bad excuse.

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@Kuulpb.5412 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:Based on the scale of the complaints I wonder how people played before this trait got changed because they make it sounds like it was impossible...only it wasn't..Seen people saying this change destroyed the class but, again, how did they play it before this change?

Arguably when you compare the trait, even now, to the version of the trait beforehand it is a MUCH stronger trait.

The issue is not that people couldn't use it before, the issue is it got taken away with a bad excuse.

This still doesnt stop the trait from a) being over buffed, i mean if they didnt think they made it too strong they wouldnt have nerfed it, and b) STILL being stronger than its old version after the nerf. Also reason people don't like =/= excuse.

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@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:Based on the scale of the complaints I wonder how people played before this trait got changed because they make it sounds like it was impossible...only it wasn't..Seen people saying this change destroyed the class but, again, how did they play it before this change?

Arguably when you compare the trait, even now, to the version of the trait beforehand it is a MUCH stronger trait.

The issue is not that people couldn't use it before, the issue is it got taken away with a bad excuse.

This still doesnt stop the trait from a) being over buffed, i mean if they didnt think they made it too strong they wouldnt have nerfed it, and b) STILL being stronger than its old version after the nerf. Also reason people don't like =/= excuse.

I disagree with the assumption they wouldn’t nerf it unless it was overbuffed, as some changes over the past few years have made no sense regarding nerfs, such as focus 4 nerf, or warhorn nerfs as most recent for necro.

Also it is not stronger sustain wise, because it healed approx 200 health a second, this is equivalent to 5% healing on 4k damage a hit, reaper foes not do 4k a second with no downtime so the healing is lower, it also no longer generates life force as it used to, meaning you can’t be in shroud as often anyway (marginal life force regen but it could be the difference between going in shroud and not), and now it is effectively a “10% damage within 300 range” trait, the more it gets nerfed the more it is just a rune set effect and not a MASTER tier trait.

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@Kuulpb.5412 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:Based on the scale of the complaints I wonder how people played before this trait got changed because they make it sounds like it was impossible...only it wasn't..Seen people saying this change destroyed the class but, again, how did they play it before this change?

Arguably when you compare the trait, even now, to the version of the trait beforehand it is a MUCH stronger trait.

The issue is not that people couldn't use it before, the issue is it got taken away with a bad excuse.

This still doesnt stop the trait from a) being over buffed, i mean if they didnt think they made it too strong they wouldnt have nerfed it, and b) STILL being stronger than its old version after the nerf. Also reason people don't like =/= excuse.

I disagree with the assumption they wouldn’t nerf it unless it was overbuffed, as some changes over the past few years have made no sense regarding nerfs, such as focus 4 nerf, or warhorn nerfs as most recent for necro.

They literally said they over buffed it so they are nerfing it? and they nerfed the part of the trait they deemd was over performing. You're still avoiding admitting its still a stronger trait that it was before.

And I disagree with the complaints being how they removed it. People are acting like they can no longer play the class/ its been destroyed. What did they do 3 months ago?

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@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:Based on the scale of the complaints I wonder how people played before this trait got changed because they make it sounds like it was impossible...only it wasn't..Seen people saying this change destroyed the class but, again, how did they play it before this change?

Arguably when you compare the trait, even now, to the version of the trait beforehand it is a MUCH stronger trait.

The issue is not that people couldn't use it before, the issue is it got taken away with a bad excuse.

This still doesnt stop the trait from a) being over buffed, i mean if they didnt think they made it too strong they wouldnt have nerfed it, and b) STILL being stronger than its old version after the nerf. Also reason people don't like =/= excuse.

I disagree with the assumption they wouldn’t nerf it unless it was overbuffed, as some changes over the past few years have made no sense regarding nerfs, such as focus 4 nerf, or warhorn nerfs as most recent for necro.

They literally said they over buffed it so they are nerfing it? and they nerfed the part of the trait they deemd was over performing. You're still avoiding admitting its still a stronger trait that it was before.

And I disagree with the complaints being how they removed it. People are acting like they can no longer play the class/ its been destroyed. What did they do 3 months ago?

I just provided evidence why it is currently weaker than before, aswell ad evidence that they do not nerf things because it’s too strong. What more do you want?

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@Kuulpb.5412 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:Based on the scale of the complaints I wonder how people played before this trait got changed because they make it sounds like it was impossible...only it wasn't..Seen people saying this change destroyed the class but, again, how did they play it before this change?

Arguably when you compare the trait, even now, to the version of the trait beforehand it is a MUCH stronger trait.

The issue is not that people couldn't use it before, the issue is it got taken away with a bad excuse.

This still doesnt stop the trait from a) being over buffed, i mean if they didnt think they made it too strong they wouldnt have nerfed it, and b) STILL being stronger than its old version after the nerf. Also reason people don't like =/= excuse.

I disagree with the assumption they wouldn’t nerf it unless it was overbuffed, as some changes over the past few years have made no sense regarding nerfs, such as focus 4 nerf, or warhorn nerfs as most recent for necro.

They literally said they over buffed it so they are nerfing it? and they nerfed the part of the trait they deemd was over performing. You're still avoiding admitting its still a stronger trait that it was before.

And I disagree with the complaints being how they removed it. People are acting like they can no longer play the class/ its been destroyed. What did they do 3 months ago?

I just provided evidence why it is currently weaker than before, aswell ad evidence that they do not nerf things because it’s too strong. What more do you want?

Let's start over ... it's not relevant if it's weaker or not than it was before.

What is relevant here is that healing in shroud to the extent we were seeing isn't part of the theme of the class, nor was it reasonable just from a performance perspective. Now you may begin.

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@Kuulpb.5412 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:Based on the scale of the complaints I wonder how people played before this trait got changed because they make it sounds like it was impossible...only it wasn't..Seen people saying this change destroyed the class but, again, how did they play it before this change?

Arguably when you compare the trait, even now, to the version of the trait beforehand it is a MUCH stronger trait.

The issue is not that people couldn't use it before, the issue is it got taken away with a bad excuse.

This still doesnt stop the trait from a) being over buffed, i mean if they didnt think they made it too strong they wouldnt have nerfed it, and b) STILL being stronger than its old version after the nerf. Also reason people don't like =/= excuse.

I disagree with the assumption they wouldn’t nerf it unless it was overbuffed, as some changes over the past few years have made no sense regarding nerfs, such as focus 4 nerf, or warhorn nerfs as most recent for necro.

They literally said they over buffed it so they are nerfing it? and they nerfed the part of the trait they deemd was over performing. You're still avoiding admitting its still a stronger trait that it was before.

And I disagree with the complaints being how they removed it. People are acting like they can no longer play the class/ its been destroyed. What did they do 3 months ago?

I just provided evidence why it is currently weaker than before, aswell ad evidence that they do not nerf things because it’s too strong. What more do you want?

You edited your post whilst i was replying.. No they don't but when they explicitly state it was too strong and they are reducing it because of that why do you think they are nerfing it? And I said its overall a better trait not it doesn't have any parts that are weaker than before. It now is an option alongside DD instead of both being the 9/10 choice like it was the past patch and DD was the patch before hand. Also before the trait gave you absolutely nothing while you were i shroud..

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@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:Based on the scale of the complaints I wonder how people played before this trait got changed because they make it sounds like it was impossible...only it wasn't..Seen people saying this change destroyed the class but, again, how did they play it before this change?

Arguably when you compare the trait, even now, to the version of the trait beforehand it is a MUCH stronger trait.

The issue is not that people couldn't use it before, the issue is it got taken away with a bad excuse.

This still doesnt stop the trait from a) being over buffed, i mean if they didnt think they made it too strong they wouldnt have nerfed it, and b) STILL being stronger than its old version after the nerf. Also reason people don't like =/= excuse.

I disagree with the assumption they wouldn’t nerf it unless it was overbuffed, as some changes over the past few years have made no sense regarding nerfs, such as focus 4 nerf, or warhorn nerfs as most recent for necro.

They literally said they over buffed it so they are nerfing it? and they nerfed the part of the trait they deemd was over performing. You're still avoiding admitting its still a stronger trait that it was before.

And I disagree with the complaints being how they removed it. People are acting like they can no longer play the class/ its been destroyed. What did they do 3 months ago?

I just provided evidence why it is currently weaker than before, aswell ad evidence that they do not nerf things because it’s too strong. What more do you want?

You edited your post whilst i was replying.. No they don't but when they explicitly state it was too strong and they are reducing it because of that why do you think they are nerfing it? And I said its overall a better trait not it doesn't have any parts that are weaker than before. It now is an option alongside DD instead of both being the 9/10 choice like it was the past patch and DD was the patch before hand. Also before the trait gave you absolutely nothing while you were i shroud..

Apologies then as you didn’t see my reply - regarding the trait, before it was stronger than the current iteration as before it healed more AND Generates life force while also letting you use GS skills more often, while currently it is now heal ONLY in 300 range and ONLY 5% of damage done, it is absurdly weaker than it was before.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:Based on the scale of the complaints I wonder how people played before this trait got changed because they make it sounds like it was impossible...only it wasn't..Seen people saying this change destroyed the class but, again, how did they play it before this change?

Arguably when you compare the trait, even now, to the version of the trait beforehand it is a MUCH stronger trait.

The issue is not that people couldn't use it before, the issue is it got taken away with a bad excuse.

This still doesnt stop the trait from a) being over buffed, i mean if they didnt think they made it too strong they wouldnt have nerfed it, and b) STILL being stronger than its old version after the nerf. Also reason people don't like =/= excuse.

I disagree with the assumption they wouldn’t nerf it unless it was overbuffed, as some changes over the past few years have made no sense regarding nerfs, such as focus 4 nerf, or warhorn nerfs as most recent for necro.

They literally said they over buffed it so they are nerfing it? and they nerfed the part of the trait they deemd was over performing. You're still avoiding admitting its still a stronger trait that it was before.

And I disagree with the complaints being how they removed it. People are acting like they can no longer play the class/ its been destroyed. What did they do 3 months ago?

I just provided evidence why it is currently weaker than before, aswell ad evidence that they do not nerf things because it’s too strong. What more do you want?

Let's start over ... it's not relevant if it's weaker or not than it was before.

What is relevant here is that healing in shroud to the extent we were seeing isn't part of the theme of the class, nor was it reasonable just from a performance perspective. Now you may begin.

The two current ways to heal in shroud are minuscule healing every X, where X is either while in shroud, or when applying a boon to yourself in shroud, after testing a small amount this healing on boon application with 450 healing power (from blood magic trait) was 199 per boon, this is already weaker than just applying regeneration, but you don’t heal from regen in shroud so that bit isn’t the issue, the issue is the only two available heal in shrouds are grandmasters, unless you did 4k a tick every second, you would not heal 200 a second which would be more than the 199 per boon which can be gained from the spite line, one thing I also tested was signet of vampirism “did” heal through shroud when you hit something effected but that Was rather slow, necromancer healing in general is really low for the health they have, compared to the two 10k heals warriors get. Factoring all this in, the low healing from soul eater could not possibly be seen as too strong unless you cleave, which in itself is only effective in “some” situations. - to sum up, I feel that healing in shroud is not something that should be relegated to only grandmasters, especially when the healing from said trait is effectively worthless anyway.

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@Kuulpb.5412 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:Based on the scale of the complaints I wonder how people played before this trait got changed because they make it sounds like it was impossible...only it wasn't..Seen people saying this change destroyed the class but, again, how did they play it before this change?

Arguably when you compare the trait, even now, to the version of the trait beforehand it is a MUCH stronger trait.

The issue is not that people couldn't use it before, the issue is it got taken away with a bad excuse.

This still doesnt stop the trait from a) being over buffed, i mean if they didnt think they made it too strong they wouldnt have nerfed it, and b) STILL being stronger than its old version after the nerf. Also reason people don't like =/= excuse.

I disagree with the assumption they wouldn’t nerf it unless it was overbuffed, as some changes over the past few years have made no sense regarding nerfs, such as focus 4 nerf, or warhorn nerfs as most recent for necro.

They literally said they over buffed it so they are nerfing it? and they nerfed the part of the trait they deemd was over performing. You're still avoiding admitting its still a stronger trait that it was before.

And I disagree with the complaints being how they removed it. People are acting like they can no longer play the class/ its been destroyed. What did they do 3 months ago?

I just provided evidence why it is currently weaker than before, aswell ad evidence that they do not nerf things because it’s too strong. What more do you want?

Let's start over ... it's not relevant if it's weaker or not than it was before.

What is relevant here is that healing in shroud to the extent we were seeing isn't part of the theme of the class, nor was it reasonable just from a performance perspective. Now you may begin.

The two current ways to heal in shroud are minuscule healing every X, where X is either while in shroud, or when applying a boon to yourself in shroud, after testing a small amount this healing on boon application with 450 healing power (from blood magic trait) was 199 per boon, this is already weaker than just applying regeneration, but you don’t heal from regen in shroud so that bit isn’t the issue, the issue is the only two available heal in shrouds are grandmasters, unless you did 4k a tick every second, you would not heal 200 a second which would be more than the 199 per boon which can be gained from the spite line, one thing I also tested was signet of vampirism “did” heal through shroud when you hit something effected but that Was rather slow, necromancer healing in general is really low for the health they have, compared to the two 10k heals warriors get. Factoring all this in, the low healing from soul eater could not possibly be seen as too strong unless you cleave, which in itself is only effective in “some” situations. - to sum up, I feel that healing in shroud is not something that should be relegated to only grandmasters, especially when the healing from said trait is effectively worthless anyway.

I can appreciate that people have their reasons for why they think something should or shouldn't be. That's not unreasonable.

What is unreasonable is to ignore the concept that theme are relevant to how the game is changed. I wouldn't go so far as to say theme dictate it because we have seen changes based purely on performance. but if your thinking does not include some recognition that there is a class theme here, the value of the idea is really low.

The bottomline here is that necros 'don't heal' in shroud. Instead of emotionally attaching yourself to the premise that's 'wrong' and pushing for it come back, it would be MUCH more sensible to at least push for an idea to get more sustain (if the theme warrants it) in a manner that's more relevant to the theme itself. Why hang your hat for 'more sustain' argument on an effect that is CLEARLY not in line with how Anet wants the class to work? That's a fail right off the bat. Then people wonder why Anet doesn't communicate more to get player feedback?

I know you have some convoluted approach to assessing Shroud heals from SE and concluding it was low. It doesn't matter. The numbers did all the talking and Anet was not ignoring that.

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@Kuulpb.5412 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:Based on the scale of the complaints I wonder how people played before this trait got changed because they make it sounds like it was impossible...only it wasn't..Seen people saying this change destroyed the class but, again, how did they play it before this change?

Arguably when you compare the trait, even now, to the version of the trait beforehand it is a MUCH stronger trait.

The issue is not that people couldn't use it before, the issue is it got taken away with a bad excuse.

This still doesnt stop the trait from a) being over buffed, i mean if they didnt think they made it too strong they wouldnt have nerfed it, and b) STILL being stronger than its old version after the nerf. Also reason people don't like =/= excuse.

I disagree with the assumption they wouldn’t nerf it unless it was overbuffed, as some changes over the past few years have made no sense regarding nerfs, such as focus 4 nerf, or warhorn nerfs as most recent for necro.

They literally said they over buffed it so they are nerfing it? and they nerfed the part of the trait they deemd was over performing. You're still avoiding admitting its still a stronger trait that it was before.

And I disagree with the complaints being how they removed it. People are acting like they can no longer play the class/ its been destroyed. What did they do 3 months ago?

I just provided evidence why it is currently weaker than before, aswell ad evidence that they do not nerf things because it’s too strong. What more do you want?

You edited your post whilst i was replying.. No they don't but when they explicitly state it was too strong and they are reducing it because of that why do you think they are nerfing it? And I said its overall a better trait not it doesn't have any parts that are weaker than before. It now is an option alongside DD instead of both being the 9/10 choice like it was the past patch and DD was the patch before hand. Also before the trait gave you absolutely nothing while you were i shroud..

Apologies then as you didn’t see my reply - regarding the trait, before it was stronger than the current iteration as before it healed more AND Generates life force while also letting you use GS skills more often, while currently it is now heal ONLY in 300 range and ONLY 5% of damage done, it is absurdly weaker than it was before.

But it didn't provide the damage boost. You say only 300 range but it was a GS only trait before so you would either be limited to using GS, which its effective range is within 300 , or getting absolutely nothing from the trait. Nothing in shroud, nothing for non GS weapons. Absolutely nothing at all. The LF gain was also directly better, more often than not ,than what you could get out of CV due to its icd so there was overlap. Plus it was 0.5%/s and again only while wielding a GS.

The cool-down , sure that is a real loss but some was baked in on #3 and #5 saw a range increase ( though it needs speeding up a little ).

Sure on average you need to do 4k dps to match the 200hp/s from being but that's on average. At any given point if an attack, not limited to any time interval or weapon, does more than 4k damage you are benefiting more from the trait now than before.

As a whole it's a stronger trait and promotes a more active and varied play-style.

Plus my point is with how sensational the complaints are how did people play before? Since they are making it sound like it was impossible.

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@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:Based on the scale of the complaints I wonder how people played before this trait got changed because they make it sounds like it was impossible...only it wasn't..Seen people saying this change destroyed the class but, again, how did they play it before this change?

Arguably when you compare the trait, even now, to the version of the trait beforehand it is a MUCH stronger trait.

The issue is not that people couldn't use it before, the issue is it got taken away with a bad excuse.

This still doesnt stop the trait from a) being over buffed, i mean if they didnt think they made it too strong they wouldnt have nerfed it, and b) STILL being stronger than its old version after the nerf. Also reason people don't like =/= excuse.

I disagree with the assumption they wouldn’t nerf it unless it was overbuffed, as some changes over the past few years have made no sense regarding nerfs, such as focus 4 nerf, or warhorn nerfs as most recent for necro.

They literally said they over buffed it so they are nerfing it? and they nerfed the part of the trait they deemd was over performing. You're still avoiding admitting its still a stronger trait that it was before.

And I disagree with the complaints being how they removed it. People are acting like they can no longer play the class/ its been destroyed. What did they do 3 months ago?

I just provided evidence why it is currently weaker than before, aswell ad evidence that they do not nerf things because it’s too strong. What more do you want?

You edited your post whilst i was replying.. No they don't but when they explicitly state it was too strong and they are reducing it because of that why do you think they are nerfing it? And I said its overall a better trait not it doesn't have any parts that are weaker than before. It now is an option alongside DD instead of both being the 9/10 choice like it was the past patch and DD was the patch before hand. Also before the trait gave you absolutely nothing while you were i shroud..

Apologies then as you didn’t see my reply - regarding the trait, before it was stronger than the current iteration as before it healed more AND Generates life force while also letting you use GS skills more often, while currently it is now heal ONLY in 300 range and ONLY 5% of damage done, it is absurdly weaker than it was before.

But it didn't provide the damage boost. You say only 300 range but it was a GS only trait before so you would either be limited to using GS, which its effective range is within 300 , or getting absolutely nothing from the trait. Nothing in shroud, nothing for non GS weapons. Absolutely nothing at all. The LF gain was also directly better, more often than not ,than what you could get out of CV due to its icd so there was overlap. Plus it was 0.5%/s and again only while wielding a GS.

The cool-down , sure that is a real loss but some was baked in on #3 and #5 saw a range increase ( though it needs speeding up a little ).

Sure on average you need to do 4k dps to match the 200hp/s from being but that's on average. At any given point if an attack, not limited to any time interval or weapon, does more than 4k damage you are benefiting more from the trait now than before.

As a whole it's a stronger trait and promotes a more active and varied play-style.

Plus my point is with how sensational the complaints are how did people play before? Since they are making it sound like it was impossible.

GS is the hardest hitting melee reaper gets access to outside of shroud, healing LESS than before on the same weapon means it's a downgrade. I do agree some complaints make it seem like you couldn't play necro at all, but the general idea is it was a change, and they removed a benefit.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:Based on the scale of the complaints I wonder how people played before this trait got changed because they make it sounds like it was impossible...only it wasn't..Seen people saying this change destroyed the class but, again, how did they play it before this change?

Arguably when you compare the trait, even now, to the version of the trait beforehand it is a MUCH stronger trait.

The issue is not that people couldn't use it before, the issue is it got taken away with a bad excuse.

This still doesnt stop the trait from a) being over buffed, i mean if they didnt think they made it too strong they wouldnt have nerfed it, and b) STILL being stronger than its old version after the nerf. Also reason people don't like =/= excuse.

I disagree with the assumption they wouldn’t nerf it unless it was overbuffed, as some changes over the past few years have made no sense regarding nerfs, such as focus 4 nerf, or warhorn nerfs as most recent for necro.

They literally said they over buffed it so they are nerfing it? and they nerfed the part of the trait they deemd was over performing. You're still avoiding admitting its still a stronger trait that it was before.

And I disagree with the complaints being how they removed it. People are acting like they can no longer play the class/ its been destroyed. What did they do 3 months ago?

I just provided evidence why it is currently weaker than before, aswell ad evidence that they do not nerf things because it’s too strong. What more do you want?

Let's start over ... it's not relevant if it's weaker or not than it was before.

What is relevant here is that healing in shroud to the extent we were seeing isn't part of the theme of the class, nor was it reasonable just from a performance perspective. Now you may begin.

The two current ways to heal in shroud are minuscule healing every X, where X is either while in shroud, or when applying a boon to yourself in shroud, after testing a small amount this healing on boon application with 450 healing power (from blood magic trait) was 199 per boon, this is already weaker than just applying regeneration, but you don’t heal from regen in shroud so that bit isn’t the issue, the issue is the only two available heal in shrouds are grandmasters, unless you did 4k a tick every second, you would not heal 200 a second which would be more than the 199 per boon which can be gained from the spite line, one thing I also tested was signet of vampirism “did” heal through shroud when you hit something effected but that Was rather slow, necromancer healing in general is really low for the health they have, compared to the two 10k heals warriors get. Factoring all this in, the low healing from soul eater could not possibly be seen as too strong unless you cleave, which in itself is only effective in “some” situations. - to sum up, I feel that healing in shroud is not something that should be relegated to only grandmasters, especially when the healing from said trait is effectively worthless anyway.

I can appreciate that people have their reasons for why they think something should or shouldn't be. That's not unreasonable.

What is unreasonable is to ignore the concept that theme are relevant to how the game is changed. I wouldn't go so far as to say theme dictate it because we have seen changes based purely on performance. but if your thinking does not include some recognition that there is a class theme here, the value of the idea is really low.

The bottomline here is that necros 'don't heal' in shroud. Instead of emotionally attaching yourself to the premise that's 'wrong' and pushing for it come back, it would be MUCH more sensible to at least push for an idea to get more sustain (if the theme warrants it) in a manner that's more relevant to the theme itself. Why hang your hat for 'more sustain' argument on an effect that is CLEARLY not in line with how Anet wants the class to work? That's a fail right off the bat. Then people wonder why Anet doesn't communicate more to get player feedback?

I know you have some convoluted approach to assessing Shroud heals from SE and concluding it was low. It doesn't matter. The numbers did all the talking and Anet was not ignoring that.

I'm not saying that necromancers shouldn't heal in shroud or should, I am saying necromancers have access to Two heal in shroud traits, both grandmasters, and both EXTREMELEY limiting. The 300 range is also EXTREMELY limiting, especially for a Low mobility profession, so removing it because it is too survivable in melee range, where it's SUPPOSED TO BE- seems really stupid.

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It’s not that soul eater was OP or not.

The Soul Eater original change was the only good thing that came from the previous patch (the March/April patch). The rework to necro in that patch were all nerfs. Soul Eater was the only change that was good. Mind you these changes came after Soul Reaping rework in December/January that kinda nerfed reaper sustain even more

Then this July patch comes and gets rid of soul eater....

It’s the last nail in the coffin...it’s been 12 months of the same boring reaper meta and all we’ve gotten were constant nerfs and nothing has changed for the better. That’s why people are so bummed about soul Eater and then on top of it they give us the most out of touch excuse which is that reaper has too much sustain. It’s just a huge smack in the face and only shows that they still have no idea how their own game works.

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@Kuulpb.5412 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:Based on the scale of the complaints I wonder how people played before this trait got changed because they make it sounds like it was impossible...only it wasn't..Seen people saying this change destroyed the class but, again, how did they play it before this change?

Arguably when you compare the trait, even now, to the version of the trait beforehand it is a MUCH stronger trait.

The issue is not that people couldn't use it before, the issue is it got taken away with a bad excuse.

This still doesnt stop the trait from a) being over buffed, i mean if they didnt think they made it too strong they wouldnt have nerfed it, and b) STILL being stronger than its old version after the nerf. Also reason people don't like =/= excuse.

I disagree with the assumption they wouldn’t nerf it unless it was overbuffed, as some changes over the past few years have made no sense regarding nerfs, such as focus 4 nerf, or warhorn nerfs as most recent for necro.

They literally said they over buffed it so they are nerfing it? and they nerfed the part of the trait they deemd was over performing. You're still avoiding admitting its still a stronger trait that it was before.

And I disagree with the complaints being how they removed it. People are acting like they can no longer play the class/ its been destroyed. What did they do 3 months ago?

I just provided evidence why it is currently weaker than before, aswell ad evidence that they do not nerf things because it’s too strong. What more do you want?

You edited your post whilst i was replying.. No they don't but when they explicitly state it was too strong and they are reducing it because of that why do you think they are nerfing it? And I said its overall a better trait not it doesn't have any parts that are weaker than before. It now is an option alongside DD instead of both being the 9/10 choice like it was the past patch and DD was the patch before hand. Also before the trait gave you absolutely nothing while you were i shroud..

Apologies then as you didn’t see my reply - regarding the trait, before it was stronger than the current iteration as before it healed more AND Generates life force while also letting you use GS skills more often, while currently it is now heal ONLY in 300 range and ONLY 5% of damage done, it is absurdly weaker than it was before.

But it didn't provide the damage boost. You say only 300 range but it was a GS only trait before so you would either be limited to using GS, which its effective range is within 300 , or getting absolutely nothing from the trait. Nothing in shroud, nothing for non GS weapons. Absolutely nothing at all. The LF gain was also directly better, more often than not ,than what you could get out of CV due to its icd so there was overlap. Plus it was 0.5%/s and again only while wielding a GS.

The cool-down , sure that is a real loss but some was baked in on #3 and #5 saw a range increase ( though it needs speeding up a little ).

Sure on average you need to do 4k dps to match the 200hp/s from being but that's on average. At any given point if an attack, not limited to any time interval or weapon, does more than 4k damage you are benefiting more from the trait now than before.

As a whole it's a stronger trait and promotes a more active and varied play-style.

Plus my point is with how sensational the complaints are how did people play before? Since they are making it sound like it was impossible.

GS is the hardest hitting melee reaper gets access to outside of shroud, healing LESS than before on the same weapon means it's a downgrade.

There are a lot of times where you are healing MORE than before/ times when you can heal around the same but not need a GS. All while doing more damage due to a modifier that was previously not there. It promotes an aggressive play-style which is one of reapers thematics but also one that is more active/less passive. Also bear in mind the old trait did NOT do anything for you in shroud what so ever.

I do agree some complaints make it seem like you couldn't play necro at all, but the general idea is it was a change, and they removed a benefit.Which was deemed too strong. People are happy when this are in a state that is strong / OP. Good is never enough these days. Look at all the people who still think there was objectively nothing wrong with chill damage.Nobody likes things being taken away..I mean the reaction is always the same no matter the class. When something that is deemed OP gets nerfed or changed you get all the posts like "We needed it to be OP cause other stuff sucks", "Other class has OP ability so why not mine", "It wasnt OP it was fine", "Why does Anet hate my class","You destroyed my class". I'm going to call it now but we will see these types posts when condi ele gets nerfed.

I hold the upmost confidence in saying if this trait never healed in shroud it would be tooted as the best thing ever, " Thanks Anet for listening" etc etc . We ask, they gave, it was too strong, they remove. It really never should have been introduced the way it was.

I am saying necromancers have access to Two heal in shroud traits, both grandmasters, and both EXTREMELEY limiting. The 300 range is also EXTREMELY limiting.Blood magic? But nobody want to make a compromise. People only seem to want things that are already used/ they use buffed. You can see it in this forum whenever they make changes to core necro or the unused traitlines: "Why are they buffing/looking at those...nobody uses them/they are trash.... " Also most ways of healing in shroud already needed you to be in melee range. The 300 range isn't as limiting as people are making it out to be.

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I want to know why reaper gets the axe when you have class/builds out there that are far more op, builds that can kill fast with high damage high mitigation high sustain and crowd control. Yet necro gets a little above its station and they nerf it. Talk about unbalanced. If x is doing to much sustain and damage and y is also, why only nerf x? But everyone totes the line as long as its a unimportant class that gets nerfed. I have been part of pc game culture for almost 2 decades i know when things arent right, and i dont like echo chambers. Thats a good way to stagnate a game and run it into the ground. Fairness in gameplay is what promotes a healthy game, you have to balance the different classes to make them all play well, i dont see that here. I see an echo chamber.

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Actually, I would say that if the class starts where they want it to be and they make it too good, it gets nerfed BACK to it's desired position ... that's what balance is supposed to be.

As for fairness ... I've never played an MMO that was. They can't be when the options are so numerous and different. It's a lot of pipe dreams to have 'fair, balanced' MMO's.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:Based on the scale of the complaints I wonder how people played before this trait got changed because they make it sounds like it was impossible...only it wasn't..Seen people saying this change destroyed the class but, again, how did they play it before this change?

Arguably when you compare the trait, even now, to the version of the trait beforehand it is a MUCH stronger trait.

The issue is not that people couldn't use it before, the issue is it got taken away with a bad excuse.

This still doesnt stop the trait from a) being over buffed, i mean if they didnt think they made it too strong they wouldnt have nerfed it, and b) STILL being stronger than its old version after the nerf. Also reason people don't like =/= excuse.

I disagree with the assumption they wouldn’t nerf it unless it was overbuffed, as some changes over the past few years have made no sense regarding nerfs, such as focus 4 nerf, or warhorn nerfs as most recent for necro.

They literally said they over buffed it so they are nerfing it? and they nerfed the part of the trait they deemd was over performing. You're still avoiding admitting its still a stronger trait that it was before.

And I disagree with the complaints being how they removed it. People are acting like they can no longer play the class/ its been destroyed. What did they do 3 months ago?

I just provided evidence why it is currently weaker than before, aswell ad evidence that they do not nerf things because it’s too strong. What more do you want?

Let's start over ... it's not relevant if it's weaker or not than it was before.

What is relevant here is that healing in shroud to the extent we were seeing isn't part of the theme of the class, nor was it reasonable just from a performance perspective. Now you may begin.

The two current ways to heal in shroud are minuscule healing every X, where X is either while in shroud, or when applying a boon to yourself in shroud, after testing a small amount this healing on boon application with 450 healing power (from blood magic trait) was 199 per boon, this is already weaker than just applying regeneration, but you don’t heal from regen in shroud so that bit isn’t the issue, the issue is the only two available heal in shrouds are grandmasters, unless you did 4k a tick every second, you would not heal 200 a second which would be more than the 199 per boon which can be gained from the spite line, one thing I also tested was signet of vampirism “did” heal through shroud when you hit something effected but that Was rather slow, necromancer healing in general is really low for the health they have, compared to the two 10k heals warriors get. Factoring all this in, the low healing from soul eater could not possibly be seen as too strong unless you cleave, which in itself is only effective in “some” situations. - to sum up, I feel that healing in shroud is not something that should be relegated to only grandmasters, especially when the healing from said trait is effectively worthless anyway.

I can appreciate that people have their reasons for why they think something should or shouldn't be. That's not unreasonable.

What is unreasonable is to ignore the concept that theme are relevant to how the game is changed. I wouldn't go so far as to say theme dictate it because we have seen changes based purely on performance. but if your thinking does not include some recognition that there is a class theme here, the value of the idea is really low.

The bottomline here is that necros 'don't heal' in shroud. Instead of emotionally attaching yourself to the premise that's 'wrong' and pushing for it come back, it would be MUCH more sensible to at least push for an idea to get more sustain (if the theme warrants it) in a manner that's more relevant to the theme itself. Why hang your hat for 'more sustain' argument on an effect that is CLEARLY not in line with how Anet wants the class to work? That's a fail right off the bat. Then people wonder why Anet doesn't communicate more to get player feedback?

I know you have some convoluted approach to assessing Shroud heals from SE and concluding it was low. It doesn't matter. The numbers did all the talking and Anet was not ignoring that.
  1. Numbers i.e. statistics are not reliable. Experience is.

  2. It was never advertised that necro cannot heal in shroud. You formed that opinion because of Anet's decision in the early stages of balance and now you are stating it as the theme of necro. To counter this i can assert that when they released this trait they are going for healing with damage theme in shroud for necro. Who is right here? Who knows but no one is wrong.

  3. The wordings of the balance patch is beyond stupid because reaper is not a Frontline fighter nor is it too survivable. Idc what their theme for necro is because if they dont bend over for their players, players leave and thats a bitter pill people like you who justify Anet's every decision and Anet themselves need to follow. But i guess they are just busy racking those years of experience for their portfolio for bigger paychecks.

  4. Removing a trait without explanation and underwater changes when the class needs immediate qol changes? OMEGALUL. Surely they are not that stupid to say "too much survivability" and not mention any kind of gamemode they are referring to. Communication is so bad these couple of patches that it feels like im actually playing a dead game. For example on forums and reddit the response to warhorn changes was not good still there were no explanations or justifications, nor did did they learn from it before removing soul eater trait.

Overall Anet's performance for necromancers has been very very poor and we have every right to complain.

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@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:Based on the scale of the complaints I wonder how people played before this trait got changed because they make it sounds like it was impossible...only it wasn't..Seen people saying this change destroyed the class but, again, how did they play it before this change?

Arguably when you compare the trait, even now, to the version of the trait beforehand it is a MUCH stronger trait.

The issue is not that people couldn't use it before, the issue is it got taken away with a bad excuse.

This still doesnt stop the trait from a) being over buffed, i mean if they didnt think they made it too strong they wouldnt have nerfed it, and b) STILL being stronger than its old version after the nerf. Also reason people don't like =/= excuse.

I disagree with the assumption they wouldn’t nerf it unless it was overbuffed, as some changes over the past few years have made no sense regarding nerfs, such as focus 4 nerf, or warhorn nerfs as most recent for necro.

They literally said they over buffed it so they are nerfing it? and they nerfed the part of the trait they deemd was over performing. You're still avoiding admitting its still a stronger trait that it was before.

And I disagree with the complaints being how they removed it. People are acting like they can no longer play the class/ its been destroyed. What did they do 3 months ago?

I just provided evidence why it is currently weaker than before, aswell ad evidence that they do not nerf things because it’s too strong. What more do you want?

You edited your post whilst i was replying.. No they don't but when they explicitly state it was too strong and they are reducing it because of that why do you think they are nerfing it? And I said its overall a better trait not it doesn't have any parts that are weaker than before. It now is an option alongside DD instead of both being the 9/10 choice like it was the past patch and DD was the patch before hand. Also before the trait gave you absolutely nothing while you were i shroud..

Apologies then as you didn’t see my reply - regarding the trait, before it was stronger than the current iteration as before it healed more AND Generates life force while also letting you use GS skills more often, while currently it is now heal ONLY in 300 range and ONLY 5% of damage done, it is absurdly weaker than it was before.

But it didn't provide the damage boost. You say only 300 range but it was a GS only trait before so you would either be limited to using GS, which its effective range is within 300 , or getting absolutely nothing from the trait. Nothing in shroud, nothing for non GS weapons. Absolutely nothing at all. The LF gain was also directly better, more often than not ,than what you could get out of CV due to its icd so there was overlap. Plus it was 0.5%/s and again only while wielding a GS.

The cool-down , sure that is a real loss but some was baked in on #3 and #5 saw a range increase ( though it needs speeding up a little ).

Sure on average you need to do 4k dps to match the 200hp/s from being but that's on average. At any given point if an attack, not limited to any time interval or weapon, does more than 4k damage you are benefiting more from the trait now than before.

As a whole it's a stronger trait and promotes a more active and varied play-style.

Plus my point is with how sensational the complaints are how did people play before? Since they are making it sound like it was impossible.

Do you even wvw bruh. Its impossible, still is. I laughed so hard when they said reaper are supposed to be frontline fighters hahaha. And you know what is funny the removed the GS trait to give a general healing trait no matter the weapon but added melee range restriction because all other weapons are mid-ranged forcing you to play gs to utilize the healing in any way. But its not a buff because you could get constant 200 ticks before from gs but its very difficult to get that now consistently. These sneaky changes to force you to play certain weapons is laughable also a massive nerf to sustain and flavour of class. Another boring 10% modifier on a master trait lol.

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Warhorn 5 had to be nerfed as sustain was too high and it was in keeping with future plans to 'rework' Soul Eater which was offering over the top benefits not in keeping with the theme.You've always got the option to use BB.We didnt have the healing in shroud before so whatchoo talkin bout Willis./You're all complaining for the sake of it.People expect too much and everyone has differing views on what is optimum, they cant balance around that, and why should they.I've logged on and dont see any difference, qq more.Use another class. You cant expect necro to be everything.Just summarizing. If I've left any out add on lads.

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