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Headbutt Stunning self with Stability? What?


Hadi.3167

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@Hashberry.4510 said:Quick question on Outrage use w Head Butt. You need to head butt, activate zerk, then use Outbreak to get the full 5 sec extension right?

you cant activate zerk mode while stunned unless you're running Savage instinct. then in turn would make your use of Outrage useless cause you aren't stunned. You're better off running the other utilities in PvP because their is so much CC and condition builds, it makes outrage useless. You're probably better off running Shake it off cause it has ammo and 5 second CD (50 second recharge)

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@Sazukikrah.5036 said:

It's part of the class, so it's part of the discussion bro...

So is eviscerate or Arcing slice but thats not What the kitten im talking about ... I'm clearly talking about headbutt not Savage instinct.

Yeah, but talking about one skill in vacuum while completely ignoring anything surrounding it in the same class, spec or build is stupid and irrelevant. The fact that there are still people that fail to understand something so simple is mind blowing.

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@Sobx.1758 said:

It's part of the class, so it's part of the discussion bro...

So is eviscerate or Arcing slice but thats not What the kitten im talking about ... I'm clearly talking about headbutt not Savage instinct.

Yeah, but talking about one skill in vacuum while completely ignoring anything surrounding it in the same class, spec or build is stupid and irrelevant. The fact that there are still people that fail to understand something so simple is mind blowing.

Read the title of this post. Please do that for me.

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@Sobx.1758 said:

It's part of the class, so it's part of the discussion bro...

So is eviscerate or Arcing slice but thats not What the kitten im talking about ... I'm clearly talking about headbutt not Savage instinct.

Yeah, but talking about one skill in vacuum while completely ignoring anything surrounding it in the same class, spec or build is stupid and irrelevant. The fact that there are still people that fail to understand something so simple is mind blowing.

Yes but to me the fact that you have to take certain traits/extra skills to even make a single skill viable is just poor design. I mean to me the whole berserker design has been garbage since day one.

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@Sazukikrah.5036 said:

It's part of the class, so it's part of the discussion bro...

So is eviscerate or Arcing slice but thats not What the kitten im talking about ... I'm clearly talking about headbutt not Savage instinct.

Yeah, but talking about one skill in vacuum while completely ignoring anything surrounding it in the same class, spec or build is stupid and irrelevant. The fact that there are still people that fail to understand something so simple is mind blowing.

Read the title of this post. Please do that for me.

That changes literally nothing of what I said. Reread, understand, then play a smartkitten.

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@"Sazukikrah.5036" said:Shattering blow gives 2 seconds of stab , you use headbutt .. You still get stunned... Cause it removes stability.. The initial post was about self stunning, but not stunning the foe even if they had stability. Please learn to read i'll copy and paste if for you twice so you don't miss it. Shattering blow gives 2 seconds of stab , you use headbutt .. You still get stunned... Cause it removes stability.. Shattering blow gives 2 seconds of stab , you use headbutt .. You still get stunned... Cause it removes stability.. . I didn't ask or say anything about Savage instinct or why Arena net is forcing players to run a stagnant build instead of allowing diversity.

You're evading. I never missed what you wrote. I even quoted it back at you.

Headbutt will self stun you. You now get more deeps if you had stability up. You have ways of immediately negating this self stun: "Shake it Off!", Outrage, Savage Instinct, Balanced Stance, Stomp, etc. If you value a different utility, take SI, if you'd rather have Smash Brawler, take Outrage. You can even use BMode, THEN headbutt, and then use outrage for the extra 7 seconds of BMode. If anything you have more ways of using Headbutt than you did before, one that maximizes your dps, one that maximizes BMode Duration, one that reacts to CC and punishes your opponent, one that initiates your BMode quicker where as before it was a reactionary CC, BMode initiator, or BMode extender.

Whether or not it also strips stab from an opponent in any of these cases is superfluous unless you have other CC with you, or a teammate with an unused CC waiting on your Headbutt to connect.

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@Red Haired Savage.5430 said:

It's part of the class, so it's part of the discussion bro...

So is eviscerate or Arcing slice but thats not What the kitten im talking about ... I'm clearly talking about headbutt not Savage instinct.

Yeah, but talking about one skill in vacuum while completely ignoring anything surrounding it in the same class, spec or build is stupid and irrelevant. The fact that there are still people that fail to understand something so simple is mind blowing.

Yes but to me the fact that you have to take certain traits/extra skills to even make a single skill viable is just poor design. I mean to me the whole berserker design has been garbage since day one.

I say it was good before they removed F1 forcing you to go into berserk mode when you hit max adrenaline. Also removing Adrenaline gain on Berserker Utilities was also a bad design choice too.

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@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@"Sazukikrah.5036" said:Shattering blow gives 2 seconds of stab , you use headbutt .. You still get stunned... Cause it removes stability.. The initial post was about self stunning, but not stunning the foe even if they had stability. Please learn to read i'll copy and paste if for you twice so you don't miss it.
Shattering blow gives 2 seconds of stab , you use headbutt .. You still get stunned... Cause it removes stability.. Shattering blow gives 2 seconds of stab , you use headbutt .. You still get stunned... Cause it removes stability..
. I didn't ask or say anything about Savage instinct or why Arena net is forcing players to run a stagnant build instead of allowing diversity.

You're evading. I never missed what you wrote. I even quoted it back at you.

Headbutt will self stun you. You now get more deeps if you had stability up. You have ways of immediately negating this self stun: "Shake it Off!", Outrage, Savage Instinct, Balanced Stance, Stomp, etc. If you value a different utility, take SI, if you'd rather have Smash Brawler, take Outrage. You can even use BMode, THEN headbutt, and then use outrage for the extra 7 seconds of BMode. If anything you have more ways of using Headbutt than you did before, one that maximizes your dps, one that maximizes BMode Duration, one that reacts to CC and punishes your opponent, one that initiates your BMode quicker where as before it was a reactionary CC, BMode initiator, or BMode extender.

Whether or not it also strips stab from an opponent in any of these cases is superfluous unless you have other CC with you, or a teammate with an unused CC waiting on your Headbutt to connect.

K

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@Sazukikrah.5036 said:

It's part of the class, so it's part of the discussion bro...

So is eviscerate or Arcing slice but thats not What the kitten im talking about ... I'm clearly talking about headbutt not Savage instinct.

Yeah, but talking about one skill in vacuum while completely ignoring anything surrounding it in the same class, spec or build is stupid and irrelevant. The fact that there are still people that fail to understand something so simple is mind blowing.

Yes but to me the fact that you have to take certain traits/extra skills to even make a single skill viable is just poor design. I mean to me the whole berserker design has been garbage since day one.

I say it was good before they removed F1 forcing you to go into berserk mode when you hit max adrenaline. Also removing Adrenaline gain on Berserker Utilities was also a bad design choice too.

Yeah it was better before than it is now, but compared to other HoT elite specs warrior didn't really get much and it's always felt that way. I think Anet needs to actually redo berserker. All they did with their last rework was putting lipstick on a pig.

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Amazing how some people try to come up with options to deal with a bad change (the change was done mainly for Outrage + Head Butt combo for PvE rotations) instead of admitting that the change is fundamentally bad and trying to come up with better rework ideas.

Before, we could prevent self stun with stability, now we have to waste stunbreak (and some people even mention longer CD stunbreaks... like seriously?). It is nice to take Savage Instinct but that doesn't change the fact that during combat, when in Berserk or Berserk is on CD, there is no way to avoid self stun without having to use stunbreak that could be used few seconds later from actual enemy cc.

One would say that 1 second self stun isn't that big deal, but in certain situations, it is, my dear friend. With such mentality, why would anyone use stunbreak in general at all, when they can just wait 1 second, right?

Thing that would make much more sense would be Head Butt doing extra damage when used while having stability (without this all self stability removal nonsense), that way it could be used also purely as dps skill, not only for cc/adrenaline gain.

It is very counter-intuitive that in situations, where support stacks a lot of stability on you, you remove it all with Head Butt, still getting self-cced and have to use your own stunbreak to get out, just to get cced seconds later due to no stunbreak and no stability. But hey! That Head Butt dealt 50% more damage! Smart designs.

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@cryorion.9532 said:Amazing how some people try to come up with options to deal with a bad change (the change was done mainly for Outrage + Head Butt combo for PvE rotations) instead of admitting that the change is fundamentally bad and trying to come up with better rework ideas.

Before, we could prevent self stun with stability, now we have to waste stunbreak (and some people even mention longer CD stunbreaks... like seriously?). It is nice to take Savage Instinct but that doesn't change the fact that during combat, when in Berserk or Berserk is on CD, there is no way to avoid self stun without having to use stunbreak that could be used few seconds later from actual enemy cc.

One would say that 1 second self stun isn't that big deal, but in certain situations, it is, my dear friend. With such mentality, why would anyone use stunbreak in general at all, when they can just wait 1 second, right?

Thing that would make much more sense would be Head Butt doing extra damage when used while having stability (without this all self stability removal nonsense), that way it could be used also purely as dps skill, not only for cc/adrenaline gain.

It is very counter-intuitive that in situations, where support stacks a lot of stability on you, you remove it all with Head Butt, still getting self-cced and have to use your own stunbreak to get out, just to get cced seconds later due to no stunbreak and no stability. But hey! That Head Butt dealt 50% more damage! Smart designs.

It should do more damage for every stack of stability on you, not just 50% if they are making us deal with this. The 1s self stun would hurt in PvP and WvW. FotM and Raids not so much so long as you know the mechanics of the fight. HB+Outrage while in BMode though does do a lot to extend BMode. Granted many of us here would rather cancel BMode and get a recharge reduction than have to dance through rage skills.

I think they should reduce the self stun to 1/2s or 1/4s. That would be balanced with the whole removal of ALL Stability thing.

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@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:I think they should reduce the self stun to 1/2s or 1/4s. That would be balanced with the whole removal of ALL Stability thing.

The thing is that removing own boons (and especially one that is needed to avoid negative effect of the skill) is bad design. Maybe ANet shouldn't add damage bonus when removing self stability and make it so you don't self stun yourself, when you hit target with Head Butt in Berserk, instead. The whole change and outcome is just because of Outrage prolonging Berserk for 5 seconds when breaking stun AND ANet wanting this synergy of Head Butt -> Outrage combo. If ANet left Outrage just as simple short CD stunbreak and leaving adrenaline gain on it, we would avoid this weird change. No need to buff Head Butt damages tbh, its cc component and adrenaline fill is perfectly enough. Instead, they could have put more effort into improving rage skills when used in Berserk mode, especially Sundering Leap skill which is rarely used for anything else except to prolong Berserk by 5 seconds (Super fun /s). Also Wild Blow could have some extra effects when used in Berserk. Maybe things could have been more interesting/easier to change without weird outcomes if ANet added way to exit berserk at will and remove berserk prolonging mechanics thus allowing to use rage skills for their utility instead of just prolonging berserk, tbh. There is a lot to it but it is very time consuming to go into details.

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The self stun is asinine, always had been. If we have to have it I think they should shorten the duration like I said. I would prefer that it NOT self stun while in BMode, but it is clear that Anet WANTS us to have a drawback to the skill that forces us to take a trait or utility to negate it.

Wild Blow is a fine skill. Best CC on your bar, gives fury, and hits as hard as Decapitate. If you are on a breakbar mob somewhere you can HB->SI+BMode or Outrage +BMode ->Wildblow and break the bar most of the time before you use Arc Divider or Decapitate.

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If they were to remove the selfstun, the duration of (enemy)stun itself would be also nerfed.Anyways it basically boils down to this:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:it is clear that Anet WANTS us to have a drawback to the skill that forces us to take a trait or utility to negate it.

And tbh warrior shouldn't have any problems with playing with the skill in the current form.

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@Sobx.1758 said:If they were to remove the selfstun, the duration of (enemy)stun itself would be also nerfed.Anyways it basically boils down to this:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:it is clear that Anet WANTS us to have a drawback to the skill that forces us to take a trait or utility to negate it.

And tbh warrior shouldn't have any problems with playing with the skill in the current form.

Or maybe they did the change purely to make Head Butt -> Outrage combo more reliable as part of PvE rotations? Because before the change, people complained that HB -> Outrage combo is inconsistent due to random stability sources during combat. Which resulted changing the skill to remove own boons which is counterintuitive when you want to prevent cc (1 sec self stun). Berserker is not unplayable now because of the change, but how about not adding inconsistent mechanics in the first place, so we can avoid having to fix them later with counterintuitive changes? Also, interesting that HB got 50% damage buff when used with stability and no one is screaming pOwEr CrEeP.

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@cryorion.9532 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:If they were to remove the selfstun, the duration of (enemy)stun itself would be also nerfed.Anyways it basically boils down to this:

@"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:it is clear that Anet WANTS us to have a drawback to the skill that forces us to take a trait or utility to negate it.

And tbh warrior shouldn't have any problems with playing with the skill in the current form.

Or maybe they did the change purely to make Head Butt -> Outrage combo more reliable as part of PvE rotations? Because before the change, people complained that HB -> Outrage combo is inconsistent due to random stability sources during combat. Which resulted changing the skill to remove own boons which is counterintuitive when you want to prevent cc (1 sec self stun). Berserker is not unplayable now because of the change, but how about not adding inconsistent mechanics in the first place, so we can avoid having to fix them later with counterintuitive changes? Also, interesting that HB got 50% damage buff when used with stability and no one is screaming pOwEr CrEeP.

I don't see how that's "counterintuitive", it's a simple skill characteristic, you read it once, acknowledge and use it or not. Nothing confusing or counterintuitive about it. I also don't see how that has anything to do with "pOwEr CrEeP". Tell us and maybe people will start screaming.

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@Sobx.1758 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:If they were to remove the selfstun, the duration of (enemy)stun itself would be also nerfed.Anyways it basically boils down to this:

@"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:it is clear that Anet WANTS us to have a drawback to the skill that forces us to take a trait or utility to negate it.

And tbh warrior shouldn't have any problems with playing with the skill in the current form.

Or maybe they did the change purely to make Head Butt -> Outrage combo more reliable as part of PvE rotations? Because before the change, people complained that HB -> Outrage combo is inconsistent due to random stability sources during combat. Which resulted changing the skill to remove own boons which is counterintuitive when you want to prevent cc (1 sec self stun). Berserker is not unplayable now because of the change, but how about not adding inconsistent mechanics in the first place, so we can avoid having to fix them later with counterintuitive changes? Also, interesting that HB got 50% damage buff when used with stability and no one is screaming pOwEr CrEeP.

I don't see how that's "counterintuitive", it's a simple skill characteristic, you read it once, acknowledge and use it or not. Nothing confusing or counterintuitive about it. I also don't see how that has anything to do with "pOwEr CrEeP". Tell us and maybe people will start screaming.

The counterintuitive part is that to prevent stun or any cc in general, you want stability. But now HB is the only skill that removes own stabiliy and gets you self cced even with 25 stacks of stability. How is that not counterintuitive? There are workarounds (we have to adapt whether we like it or not), berserker is not unplayable now, but this change wouldn't be even needed, if ANet didn't force HB -> Outrage combo on us, and reworked Berserk differently (e.g. no prolonging mechanics but instead shortening Berserk CD, etc).

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@Sobx.1758 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:If they were to remove the selfstun, the duration of (enemy)stun itself would be also nerfed.Anyways it basically boils down to this:

@"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:it is clear that Anet WANTS us to have a drawback to the skill that forces us to take a trait or utility to negate it.

And tbh warrior shouldn't have any problems with playing with the skill in the current form.

Or maybe they did the change purely to make Head Butt -> Outrage combo more reliable as part of PvE rotations? Because before the change, people complained that HB -> Outrage combo is inconsistent due to random stability sources during combat. Which resulted changing the skill to remove own boons which is counterintuitive when you want to prevent cc (1 sec self stun). Berserker is not unplayable now because of the change, but how about not adding inconsistent mechanics in the first place, so we can avoid having to fix them later with counterintuitive changes? Also, interesting that HB got 50% damage buff when used with stability and no one is screaming pOwEr CrEeP.

I don't see how that's "counterintuitive", it's a simple skill characteristic, you read it once, acknowledge and use it or not. Nothing confusing or counterintuitive about it. I also don't see how that has anything to do with "pOwEr CrEeP". Tell us and maybe people will start screaming.

Well, I've been using HB+Outage and Wildblow in my static FotM group. HB with stab up and Wildblow hit as hard as Decapitate, +15k-28k, depending on buffs/debuffs and breakbars being broken. I wouldn't call it power creep myself, but my group's weaver and myself are consistently close to each other in DPS with those in my rotation.

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@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:Well, I've been using HB+Outage and Wildblow in my static FotM group. HB with stab up and Wildblow hit as hard as Decapitate, +15k-28k, depending on buffs/debuffs and breakbars being broken. I wouldn't call it power creep myself, but my group's weaver and myself are consistently close to each other in DPS with those in my rotation.

The thing is, how consistently are you going to get that HB's 50% damage modifier? Having stability up every time you use HB+Outrage is not very realistic. Usually you get stability when it is needed so you remove it all with HB.Also, Wild Blow's damage is roughly 2/3 of Decapitate (20k vs 30k) with realistic buffs including warrior buffs and it is on 20/16 sec CD. Are you not using Signet of Might or physical skills if you are using Outrage and Wild Blow at the same time? Because both SoM and physical are quite important if not essential for a power dps build.

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@cryorion.9532 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:Well, I've been using HB+Outage and Wildblow in my static FotM group. HB with stab up and Wildblow hit as hard as Decapitate, +15k-28k, depending on buffs/debuffs and breakbars being broken. I wouldn't call it power creep myself, but my group's weaver and myself are consistently close to each other in DPS with those in my rotation.

The thing is, how consistently are you going to get that HB's 50% damage modifier? Having stability up every time you use HB+Outrage is not very realistic. Usually you get stability when it is needed so you remove it all with HB.Also, Wild Blow's damage is roughly 2/3 of Decapitate (20k vs 30k) with realistic buffs including warrior buffs and it is on 20/16 sec CD. Are you not using Signet of Might or physical skills if you are using Outrage and Wild Blow at the same time? Because both SoM and physical are quite important if not essential for a power dps build.

Well My static has a support FB in it, so stab flies around. I have SoM up. I've found that traited physical skills didn't add much to my overall DPS numbers, after all you are taking time out of Decap spam for a low damage animation and aftercast. It would matter for Raids, sure. But in FotM things melt too quickly for it to matter.

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@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:Well, I've been using HB+Outage and Wildblow in my static FotM group. HB with stab up and Wildblow hit as hard as Decapitate, +15k-28k, depending on buffs/debuffs and breakbars being broken. I wouldn't call it power creep myself, but my group's weaver and myself are consistently close to each other in DPS with those in my rotation.

The thing is, how consistently are you going to get that HB's 50% damage modifier? Having stability up every time you use HB+Outrage is not very realistic. Usually you get stability when it is needed so you remove it all with HB.Also, Wild Blow's damage is roughly 2/3 of Decapitate (20k vs 30k) with realistic buffs including warrior buffs and it is on 20/16 sec CD. Are you not using Signet of Might or physical skills if you are using Outrage and Wild Blow at the same time? Because both SoM and physical are quite important if not essential for a power dps build.

Well My static has a support FB in it, so stab flies around. I have SoM up. I've found that traited physical skills didn't add much to my overall DPS numbers, after all you are taking time out of Decap spam for a low damage animation and aftercast. It would matter for Raids, sure. But in FotM things melt too quickly for it to matter.

Yes, physical skills are in general annoying to use for PP buff since most of them have annoying aftercasts and have horrible damages. For opening bursts, PP buff helps a lot, though. Also, when things melt fast, thre is not much reason to use outrage/headbutt combo to prolong berserk for that long. I would say it would be better to use HB+O combo in longer fights (raids) than in fractals. But in raids, I rarely see stability that would align with HB+O combo. The point is that this damage bonus with stability on HB is rather situational and I don't think it justifies making selfstun during combat unavoidable (you have to use stunbreak or you will get cced for 1 second) and I also don't think that ANet made this skill to have another drawback. Having 1 sec self stun on the skill is and always was the drawback, so...

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@cryorion.9532 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:Well, I've been using HB+Outage and Wildblow in my static FotM group. HB with stab up and Wildblow hit as hard as Decapitate, +15k-28k, depending on buffs/debuffs and breakbars being broken. I wouldn't call it power creep myself, but my group's weaver and myself are consistently close to each other in DPS with those in my rotation.

The thing is, how consistently are you going to get that HB's 50% damage modifier? Having stability up every time you use HB+Outrage is not very realistic. Usually you get stability when it is needed so you remove it all with HB.Also, Wild Blow's damage is roughly 2/3 of Decapitate (20k vs 30k) with realistic buffs including warrior buffs and it is on 20/16 sec CD. Are you not using Signet of Might or physical skills if you are using Outrage and Wild Blow at the same time? Because both SoM and physical are quite important if not essential for a power dps build.

Well My static has a support FB in it, so stab flies around. I have SoM up. I've found that traited physical skills didn't add much to my overall DPS numbers, after all you are taking time out of Decap spam for a low damage animation and aftercast. It would matter for Raids, sure. But in FotM things melt too quickly for it to matter.

Yes, physical skills are in general annoying to use for PP buff since most of them have annoying aftercasts and have horrible damages. For opening bursts, PP buff helps a lot, though. Also, when things melt fast, thre is not much reason to use outrage/headbutt combo to prolong berserk for that long. I would say it would be better to use HB+O combo in longer fights (raids) than in fractals. But in raids, I rarely see stability that would align with HB+O combo. The point is that this damage bonus with stability on HB is rather situational and I don't think it justifies making selfstun during combat unavoidable (you have to use stunbreak or you will get cced for 1 second) and I also don't think that ANet made this skill to have another drawback. Having 1 sec self stun on the skill is and always was the drawback, so...

Yeah the self stun is annoying, but then spamming throw bolas to upkeep PP is also annoying. It is clear that Anet wants us to spam your flavor of choice with utilities or elites to get you to maximize dps. So pick the flavor you find less annoying.

I've been testing my dps with variations of Wildblow, outrage, headbutt, shattering blow, SoM, throw bolas(traited), and banner of strength (traited). Honestly, for a berserker spamming Wildblow and HB+O on recharge keeps your BMode up long enough that the extra decapitate spam becomes equal to the extra damage of PP. Spamming SB with HB+O is also roughly the same as PP upkeep for the same reason, more decap spam with the added stability from SB fueling the HB extra damage modifier.

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