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Hard counter to CI Mesmer


Chiral.8915

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@UBcktieDL.5318 said:Weaver with rune of evasion. This build has so much condi cleanse that there's no way how mirage could kill it, and the same goes for any other condi build. However a decent condi mirage should also notice imidiately that he can't win against that and outrotate the slower ele.

dont know about ele, but current meta condi mirage doesnt have much mobility

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@UBcktieDL.5318 said:Weaver with rune of evasion. This build has so much condi cleanse that there's no way how mirage could kill it, and the same goes for any other condi build. However a decent condi mirage should also notice imidiately that he can't win against that and outrotate the slower ele.

dont know about ele, but current meta condi mirage doesnt have much mobility

It has a lot more than meta weaver I can tell you that. Meta weaver is on focus so no ride the lightning. It doesn't even run lightning flash.

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@"Tayga.3192" said:If I must only talk about hard counters,

I am surprised nobody said the oldest and the best counter there is: Thief.Other than that, all three guardian variants "counter" mesmer. Core and DH can actually kill it while FB can sustain the pressure easily.

Conclusion: If you know how to play thief, it's the best counter. Second is core guard.

Right but for thief to 1v1 mirage on side would take thief out of his primary role - 1upping and decapping. Otherwise, he'd just be a duelist role which then you'd basically be doing your role wrong.

Thief will usually EVENTUALLY win an encounter with mirage sure, because they are the counter to mesmer in general. But Mirage WANTS the thief to fight them 1v1 for an extended amount of time, why? Because then they're not around the map forcing rotations.

This is both a weakness on thief's side against a duelist mes even though they counter them.

Hence why actual duelist specs exist.

Very closeminded aproach. you need to adopt to the situation. If you are confident you can clap mirage in 1v1 and take node, there is no reason not to do it, put M on respawn and then roam.

It's not close minded, you just clearly don't understand roles and that's fine because you're about to learn.

If you actually play thief you would understand that 1v1ing a mirage on point in a duelist role aspect which is lol btw since you need to constantly sword 2 in and out which means you'll eventually lose the point anyway SO not only do you lose the point and let point creep occur and essentially do nothing in the long run, but you spend 1-2 minutes dueling a good mirage on point , maybe even longer... So you're basically throwing away your advantage as a thief (decap / 1up) and using your time on a mirage that a duelist class should be doing in the 1st place.

As a thief, you basically need to be moving the map almost at all times, constantly decapping to force rotations and 1up opponents, that is thief's meta role. Staff build is not as good as Spellbreaker so you basically are just playing a mediocre duelist when you could play another class that can stall mirage on point much better. This isn't to say staff isn't good, it's good but there's just better option but if you enjoy using it, go for it.

If you're talking about 1upping with a side noder already engaged, then I can see your point but no, you're talking about just dueling a mirage on point as a thief.... It's not a question of whether the thief can, of course he can but you're basically wasting time and not doing your role properly.

theory theory theory theory, doesnt work in practice.you assume every mirage is god amongst man capable of holding thief for 2min, if you assume that every opponent is going to play perfectly from the start might as well roll a dice instead of playing pvp. no matter how good someone is, they WILL make mistakes, fish for them, win more.

You clearly just don't understand time utilization for the thief role in PvP. No problem, we all start somewhere.

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@Tayga.3192 said:

@ZhouX.8742 said:If you actually play thief you would understand that 1v1ing a mirage on point in a duelist role aspect which is lol btw since you need to constantly sword 2 in and out which means you'll eventually lose the point anyway SO not only do you lose the point and let point creep occur and essentially do nothing in the long run, but you spend 1-2 minutes dueling a good mirage on point , maybe even longer... So you're basically throwing away your advantage as a thief (decap / 1up) and using your time on a mirage that a duelist class should be doing in the 1st place.

As a thief, you basically need to be moving the map almost at all times, constantly decapping to force rotations and 1up opponents, that is thief's meta role.

That's what happens when people only study theory.Let me say this to you: Putting somebody in opponent team in respawn is basically +1ing your whole team.

It's a waste of a time for a decapper/1up thief to play the duelist role on node and why the duelist role exists for specific classes. Simple, end of discussion.

If you guys can't understand these basics , then I would maybe watch vet thieves on twitch and learn a few things. Start Vallun/Sindrener.

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@ZhouX.8742 said:If you guys can't understand these basics , then I would maybe watch vet thieves on twitch and learn a few things. Start Vallun/Sindrener.

That's very bold (and rude) of you to assume I don't follow them.I've been watching good players since ESL.

That's why I know a thief can go after a mesmer if the conditions are right. Not even chess follows pure theory.

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@Tayga.3192 said:

@ZhouX.8742 said:If you guys can't understand these basics , then I would maybe watch vet thieves on twitch and learn a few things. Start Vallun/Sindrener.

That's very bold (and rude) of you to assume I don't follow them.I've been watching good players since ESL.

That's why I know a thief can go after a mesmer if the conditions are right. Not even chess follows pure theory.

Not an assumption when what you type is telling me exactly how much knowledge you have on thief and rotations in the game in general. You almost always never 1v1 a mesmer on node as a decapper/1upper, but sure you're right in the <1% scenario that you would find yourself doing it to possibly stall in a situation you're technically correct, this would also mean your side noder isn't doing his job though if your team is forcing thief to 1v1 a side noder (and you're most likely getting out rotated already because your side noder either died or is clueless on his role).

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@"ZhouX.8742" said:You almost always never 1v1 a mesmer on node as a decapper/1upper, but sure you're right in the <1% scenario that you would find yourself doing it to possibly stall in a situation you're technically correct,

It's a lot more common than that. I've even seen good thieves taking 1v1s on revenants (rotational dps, +1 even), rangers ("counter" sidenoder) and even necromancers/guardians (teamfighters), in ATs and mATs no less.It all depends on the current situation in the game, theory is just "general game knowledge".

this would also mean your side noder isn't doing his job though if your team is forcing thief to 1v1 a side noder (and you're most likely getting out rotated already because your side noder either died or is clueless on his role).

That's actually half of what I was trying to say. I already explained the other half.

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@Tayga.3192 said:

@"ZhouX.8742" said:You almost always never 1v1 a mesmer on node as a decapper/1upper, but sure
you're right in the <1% scenario
that you would find yourself doing it to possibly stall in a situation you're technically correct,

It's a lot more common than that. I've even seen good thieves taking 1v1s on revenants (rotational dps, +1 even), rangers ("counter" sidenoder) and even necromancers/guardians (teamfighters), in ATs and mATs no less.It all depends on the current situation in the game, theory is just "general game knowledge".

this would also mean your side noder isn't doing his job though if your team is forcing thief to 1v1 a side noder (and you're most likely getting out rotated already because your side noder either died or is clueless on his role).

That's actually half of what I was trying to say. I already explained the other half.

let him be in his closed little box, where you cant improvise and adopt to situation.thief can only +1, no matter what. :D

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The first and most potent counter to CI Mirage (and any condi Mesmer)-

TURN YOUR AUTO-ATTACK OFF.

As someone who multi-classes, I can assure you that's the very first step to winning the engagement. After that, time your key skills around their dodges/interrupt spam. The vast majority of CI Mirages are total noobs and just unload their Interrupts and dodges into you to try to burst you down. Have patience, their pressure is barely a tickle if you don't feed into it by giving them easy interrupts.

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I haven't PvP'd in quite awhile (several months before PoF came out). But I don't understand why you would pick (Mantra of Distraction/Chaotic Interruption) in a "condi" build?

Isn't Mirage's main condition damage from Confusion(damage upon skill use) and Torment(damage when moving)?

The daze from MoD prevents skill use, and the immobilize from CI will stop movement.... why is this build so hated in sPvP right now? (Not to mention using Pistol for the "stun".. preventing both skill usage and movement????? )

Seems to me if this "CI Condi Mirage" is dominating in SPvP,(based on the forum hate) it apparently can spit out TONS of confusion and torment that it doesn't matter if it wastes damage by stunning/immobilizing the target. (Shouldn't players be yelling about THAT and not MoD/CI??)

Or am I just not "not in touch" or am I missing something?

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@"ZhouX.8742" said:You almost always never 1v1 a mesmer on node as a decapper/1upper, but sure
you're right in the <1% scenario
that you would find yourself doing it to possibly stall in a situation you're technically correct,

It's a lot more common than that. I've even seen good thieves taking 1v1s on revenants (rotational dps, +1 even), rangers ("counter" sidenoder) and even necromancers/guardians (teamfighters), in ATs and mATs no less.It all depends on the current situation in the game, theory is just "general game knowledge".

this would also mean your side noder isn't doing his job though if your team is forcing thief to 1v1 a side noder (and you're most likely getting out rotated already because your side noder either died or is clueless on his role).

That's actually half of what I was trying to say. I already explained the other half.

let him be in his closed little box, where you cant improvise and adopt to situation.thief can only +1, no matter what. :D

I mean, that is the role of thief with meta s/d .. To decap and +1 - you can duel with it if you'd like, but it's not the purpose of that thief build. I feel like I keep needing to reiterating these basic concepts of roles as something that even bronze players have a grasp of... This is common sense stuff essentially.

It would be like trying to put a firebrand on side node by himself - you wouldn't do this right? He technically CAN do it because he's a class with skills that could potentially stall for X amount of time but he's a team fighter with necro - that is his role.. Classes have roles in conquest. This isn't rocket science and this isn't anything new and is not close-minded it literally is just the way it is in this game's PvP mode. If you don't understand these fundamental concepts then it's probably no surprise you're complaining about PvP in the 1st place in the forums.

These are things that happen in any organized match format in any game - roles belong to specific classes / champions / players. If you look at any mAT/AT or formulated inner match you'll understand this. It obviously is more flexible in ranked though where you're put together with random strangers so technically you're being forced to adapt to the role that would be best suited for the opposing team but the same rules still apply.

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@Tayga.3192 said:

@"ZhouX.8742" said:You almost always never 1v1 a mesmer on node as a decapper/1upper, but sure
you're right in the <1% scenario
that you would find yourself doing it to possibly stall in a situation you're technically correct,

It's a lot more common than that. I've even seen good thieves taking 1v1s on revenants (rotational dps, +1 even), rangers ("counter" sidenoder) and even necromancers/guardians (teamfighters), in ATs and mATs no less.It all depends on the current situation in the game, theory is just "general game knowledge".

this would also mean your side noder isn't doing his job though if your team is forcing thief to 1v1 a side noder (and you're most likely getting out rotated already because your side noder either died or is clueless on his role).

That's actually half of what I was trying to say. I already explained the other half.

Yes... Thieves and revs are essentially almost the same role and some cases revs were beginning to replace thieves all together. But fights don't last as long between a rev and a thief vs a thief vs ci mirage / spellbreaker. There's a big difference in the tankiness between a rev and a duelist class. Tankiness = time. Time = crucial for thieves.

Common sense stuff here... Sigh

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@"ZhouX.8742" said:Yes... Thieves and revs are essentially almost the same role and some cases revs were beginning to replace thieves all together. But fights don't last as long between a rev and a thief vs a thief vs ci mirage / spellbreaker. There's a big difference in the tankiness between a rev and a duelist class. Tankiness = time. Time = crucial for thieves.

Common sense stuff here... Sigh

Sure rev vs thief duels are usually short (even if nobody dies, both stop fighting and go do other stuff).However, I didn't only say "rev". Are Soulbeast vs Thief duels short too?

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@"SlimChance.6593" said:I haven't PvP'd in quite awhile (several months before PoF came out). But I don't understand why you would pick (Mantra of Distraction/Chaotic Interruption) in a "condi" build?

Isn't Mirage's main condition damage from Confusion(damage upon skill use) and Torment(damage when moving)?

The daze from MoD prevents skill use, and the immobilize from CI will stop movement.... why is this build so hated in sPvP right now? (Not to mention using Pistol for the "stun".. preventing both skill usage and movement????? )

Seems to me if this "CI Condi Mirage" is dominating in SPvP,(based on the forum hate) it apparently can spit out TONS of confusion and torment that it doesn't matter if it wastes damage by stunning/immobilizing the target. (Shouldn't players be yelling about THAT and not MoD/CI??)

Or am I just not "not in touch" or am I missing something?

Just a minor input, I don't know if ANerf changed it but rupts proc confusion damage.Now with that out of the way, as long as mesmer has a playable build people will complain.What I find funny is that everyone wants CI and mantra nerfed but those same qqers will scream "nerf elite not core" if they aren't talking about mesmer.

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I would assume "Interrupts" trigger confusion damage.. since in order to "interrupt" someone they had to be using a skill in the first place. But "dazing" a "confused" target (puts skills on cooldown) will do less tick damage then letting them execute skills (while confused.)

ANet lowered the passive confusion ticks, stating that Confusion is supposed to be a "burst" condition.. its only supposed to last 2-3 seconds.... so again, why would you "daze" someone you just confused????????? Or stun/immobilize someone you just tormented?

As a power user, controlling the fight with daze/stun/immobilize makes sense... (its more a defense/setting up of your burst damage). But for a Confusion/Tormenting damage build, your throwing away damage? No?

Wouldn't Bountiful Interruption (on a condi build) be better choice and almost any other utility than MoD? (another stun break or condition cleanse )??

I mean isn't a "CI Condi Mirage" actually doing you a favor by stunning/immobilizing you???? Why all the nerf MoD/CI??

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@"SlimChance.6593" said:I would assume "Interrupts" trigger confusion damage.. since in order to "interrupt" someone they had to be using a skill in the first place. But "dazing" a "confused" target (puts skills on cooldown) will do less tick damage then letting them execute skills (while confused.)

ANet lowered the passive confusion ticks, stating that Confusion is supposed to be a "burst" condition.. its only supposed to last 2-3 seconds.... so again, why would you "daze" someone you just confused????????? Or stun/immobilize someone you just tormented?

As a power user, controlling the fight with daze/stun/immobilize makes sense... (its more a defense/setting up of your burst damage). But for a Confusion/Tormenting damage build, your throwing away damage? No?

Wouldn't Bountiful Interruption (on a condi build) be better choice and almost any other utility than MoD? (another stun break or condition cleanse )??

I mean isn't a "CI Condi Mirage" actually doing you a favor by stunning/immobilizing you???? Why all the nerf MoD/CI??

Yes, you're right.Regarding BD, BD was nerfed into a not so good trait and as usual as soon as mesmers adapt people will start crying about the other traits.It will be until mesmers don't have any good traits left.

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@"Tayga.3192" said:If I must only talk about hard counters,

I am surprised nobody said the oldest and the best counter there is: Thief.Other than that, all three guardian variants "counter" mesmer. Core and DH can actually kill it while FB can sustain the pressure easily.

Conclusion: If you know how to play thief, it's the best counter. Second is core guard.

Thief is a counter to power variants of mesmer. It is not a counter to condi mirage.

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@"SlimChance.6593" said:I would assume "Interrupts" trigger confusion damage.. since in order to "interrupt" someone they had to be using a skill in the first place. But "dazing" a "confused" target (puts skills on cooldown) will do less tick damage then letting them execute skills (while confused.)

ANet lowered the passive confusion ticks, stating that Confusion is supposed to be a "burst" condition.. its only supposed to last 2-3 seconds.... so again, why would you "daze" someone you just confused????????? Or stun/immobilize someone you just tormented?

As a power user, controlling the fight with daze/stun/immobilize makes sense... (its more a defense/setting up of your burst damage). But for a Confusion/Tormenting damage build, your throwing away damage? No?

Wouldn't Bountiful Interruption (on a condi build) be better choice and almost any other utility than MoD? (another stun break or condition cleanse )??

I mean isn't a "CI Condi Mirage" actually doing you a favor by stunning/immobilizing you???? Why all the nerf MoD/CI??

Control effects (particularly instant cast daze) that are used to interrupt key skills are always useful, even for confusion heavy builds. More so if you know what you are trying to interrupt.

Regarding CI, on top of applying cover conditions the immobilize helps land iDuelist bleed burst and staff ambush attacks from the mirage and clones. A large amount of damage can come from bleed and burn when these hit, diversifying damage sources among multiple conditions. If you cannot clear them all (made less likely by cover condies) then you are taking some kind of damage when a good burst lands (made easier my immob). This idea and build concept has been around since pre-HOT but was usually very fragile. Mirage helps with that.

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@Turk.5460 said:

@"Tayga.3192" said:If I must only talk about hard counters,

I am surprised nobody said the oldest and the best counter there is: Thief.Other than that, all three guardian variants "counter" mesmer. Core and DH can actually kill it while FB can sustain the pressure easily.

Conclusion: If you know how to play thief, it's the best counter. Second is core guard.

Thief is a counter to power variants of mesmer. It is
not
a counter to condi mirage.

laughts in plasma,plasma, dagger storm, dodge dodge,steal plasma plasma

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In terms of wvw I still prefer BD despite the overnerf, because it's reliable boons (particularly F2 vigour, since the excessive vigour nerfs) and doesn't necessitate running MoD which personally I've never liked.

Without MoD it's only F3, rng chaos storm and luck iMage hit (30s cd and easy to avoid) or pistol 5 that benefit from CI - and depending on situation may not get much mileage out of it at all. With MoD there's no room to run proper cleanse (assuming Blink and one other useful utility) - so the mesmer is highly susceptible to incoming condi given only cleanse would be jaunt/prestige and maybe sigils, which is nothing when hit by good condi burst. Kind of ironic there the fotm condi "cheese" is weak to condi.

I dunno, just think MoD is a gimmick like it was a gimmick on power shatter until CS got nerfed and people remembered "oh wait, you can land burst without stunlock"...

Of course some classes are going to be weak to it (eg necro), but I don't think it's as obscene as is being made out to be. Synergies like MoD reducing F3 cd and pistol 5 cd reduction from trait which can make cc more frequently available - so I wouldn't be opposed to a change to CI maybe reducing immob duration or giving it something else instead.

If anything, chaos storm should have this rng business tweaked especially for daze so it isn't eg nothing or loads of daze procs... ought to be more predictable for something like that - on first hit only maybe, or first and last hit, maybe on second and last hit only (giving opponents chance to react), etc - rather than guessing when it's going to proc.

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@"Tayga.3192" said:If I must only talk about hard counters,

I am surprised nobody said the oldest and the best counter there is: Thief.Other than that, all three guardian variants "counter" mesmer. Core and DH can actually kill it while FB can sustain the pressure easily.

Conclusion: If you know how to play thief, it's the best counter. Second is core guard.

Thief is a counter to power variants of mesmer. It is
not
a counter to condi mirage.

laughts in plasma,plasma, dagger storm, dodge dodge,steal plasma plasma

Yeah, that allows the Thief to fight the mesmer, not counter it.

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As someone who has played variants of CI interrupt builds with staff/sceptre+pistol for many years now the best counter I found was S/D Thief. Can prevent the Mirage from kiting due to ports, has tiny skill channels so difficult for active interrupts and, as this Mirage build doesn't really burst like other Mirage builds in the past, when you dive in and out with sword 2 there's little immediate pressure. I started playing S/D Thief a few years ago too, because I wanted to know my best counter more. So I'm actually looking forward to brutalising people running CI builds with my S/D Thief ?

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