Why Is Over Shield With Hammer Preferred?

[Sugar Min.5834]

Hi all.

For Support Scrapper, I noticed all Meta builds use Over Shield skill under the Invention trait while Hammer is the choice of weapon. Is this not a waste of a trait skill if you are not using a Shield as your weapon? The other two skills, Automated Medical Response and Autodefense Bomb Dispenser, seemed more useful for a Hammer user. Thank you for replying.

[Endaris.1452]

Because you run Pistol+Shield instead of Hammer. Not always but in many cases.

Generally speaking, shield is the more supportive weapon choice because it holds more CC (interesting for PvE) and gives you the opportunity to share Protection to your group through the Over Shield trait while offering almost the same defensive utility as hammer does (personal block, personal reflect).The leap on the hammer is not as strictly desired as you want to stick with your group, not leap away from it so the dodges on it aren't valued that much.Additionally, blasting Shield 4 in a combofield will give your group superspeed while Hammer only offers superspeed to yourself.

If you actually run Hammer on a support build (it's a reasonable option in WvW) you're absolutely right that using Over Shield as a trait is nonsense. Medical Response is probably the more reasonable option for a support build that uses hammer.However, given the arguments above you should understand why in many cases you won't run hammer after all.

[MrForz.1953]

I guess the increased amount of damage reduction on protection is prefered, given that even without a shield there's still plenty of it.

[Chaba.5410]

@"talprofil.5986" said:If you actually run Hammer on a support build (it's a reasonable option in WvW) you're absolutely right that using Over Shield as a trait is nonsense. Medical Response is probably the more reasonable option for a support build that uses hammer.

Only, it is not nonsense. The other two traits are useless in WvW. When you're running in an organized WvW group, your health is not going to drop below the threshold for Automated Medical Response. And when you are using medkit, the auto-"attack" doesn't need to be recharged. You're also not going to be getting disabled for the auto bomb. Moreover, the bomb is going to do next to nothing to anyone in WvW. Bombs in general have always been rather bad for WvW due to the delay in explosion. You take Over Shield for the protection increase and it doesn't really matter whether you use hammer or pistol/shield (I prefer hammer.) Those other traits are only good if you're maybe solo roaming, in which case you probably aren't using a support build in the first place.

[Sugar Min.5834]

@Chaba.5410 said:

@"talprofil.5986" said:If you actually run Hammer on a support build (it's a reasonable option in WvW) you're absolutely right that using Over Shield as a trait is nonsense. Medical Response is probably the more reasonable option for a support build that uses hammer.

Only, it is not nonsense. The other two traits are useless in WvW. When you're running in an organized WvW group, your health is not going to drop below the threshold for Automated Medical Response. And when you are using medkit, the auto-"attack" doesn't need to be recharged. You're also not going to be getting disabled for the auto bomb. Moreover, the bomb is going to do next to nothing to anyone in WvW. Bombs in general have always been rather bad for WvW due to the delay in explosion. You take Over Shield for the protection increase and it doesn't really matter whether you use hammer or pistol/shield (I prefer hammer.) Those other traits are only good if you're maybe solo roaming, in which case you probably aren't using a support build in the first place.

I noticed most preferred Hammer but if you are playing as a support role, I cannot see the logic for using Hammer and totally giving up on two additional protection boons and a blast finisher. And, Shield has better missiles refection and block skills, compared to Hammer. Missiles reflection and block with the Hammer has only a radius of 180. Both Shield 4 and 5 give a 360 radius coverage. Doubled. And don't under estimate that blast finisher with Shield 4. It comes in really handy in emergency situations.

The only useful skill I see in Hammer is maybe Skill 5, only for cc and tagging, but even that is hardly needed when 90% of the time we are camped in Med Kit and Elixer Gun and our main role is to cleanse, protect and heal. Rocket Charge is useless as support and the leaps cannot be controlled and eccentric too, sometimes it leaped backwards or sideways. All three Pistol skills have 900 range and are good for tagging enemies and pew pew them at a distance.

I think more protection is needed now especially since the last patch slashed away our Vitality by 3000+ and with the ongoing power creep, many professions out there can deal up to 25k damage in just 2-3 seconds, easy.

All the above are just my perspective views as a WvW Healing/Anti-toxin Scrapper. Thank you everyone for your feedback and help.

PS... Sorry to go a little out of topic here.

[Chaba.5410]

@Mil.3562 said:

@Chaba.5410 said:

@"talprofil.5986" said:If you actually run Hammer on a support build (it's a reasonable option in WvW) you're absolutely right that using Over Shield as a trait is nonsense. Medical Response is probably the more reasonable option for a support build that uses hammer.

Only, it is not nonsense. The other two traits are useless in WvW. When you're running in an organized WvW group, your health is not going to drop below the threshold for Automated Medical Response. And when you are using medkit, the auto-"attack" doesn't need to be recharged. You're also not going to be getting disabled for the auto bomb. Moreover, the bomb is going to do next to nothing to anyone in WvW. Bombs in general have always been rather bad for WvW due to the delay in explosion. You take Over Shield for the protection increase and it doesn't really matter whether you use hammer or pistol/shield (I prefer hammer.) Those other traits are only good if you're maybe solo roaming, in which case you probably aren't using a support build in the first place.

But, I cannot see the logic for using Hammer and totally giving up on two additional protection boons and a blast finisher. And, Shield has better missiles refection and block skills compared to Hammer. Missiles reflection and block with the Hammer has only a radius of 180. Both Shield 4 and 5 give a 360 radius coverage. Doubled.

The only useful skill I see in Hammer is maybe Skill 5, only for cc and tagging, but even that is hardly needed when 90% of the time we are camped in Med Kit and Elixer Gun and our main role is to cleanse, protect and heal. Rocket Charge is useless as support and the leaps cannot be controlled and eccentric too, sometimes it leaped backwards or sideways. All three Pistol skills have 900 range and are good for tagging enemies and pew pew them at a distance.

I think more protection is especially needed now since the last patch slashed away our Vitality by 3000+ and with the ongoing powercreep, many professions out there can deal up to 25k damage in just 2-3 seconds, easy.

All the above are just perspective points of view from a WvW Healing/Anti-toxin Scrapper.

PS Over Shield gives additional 7% protection to Bandage Self skill only? I still think AMR is more useful when it comes to surviving a bad situation.PPS Sorry to go a little out of topic here.

Since this thread was mainly about the trait Over Shield, and I understand that there's people who do pistol/shield over hammer, I didn't want to get into a lengthy discussion about it.

Everything you said about reasons to use pistol/shield are valid, but not necessarily the reasons to use it over hammer. It depends upon what your guild really needs/wants out of support scrapper. You said the main role is to cleanse, protect, and heal. That may be true in your case, but not in everyone's case. In my guild, the main role of scrapper is to provide cleanse (really condi conversion), heal, stealth, and superspeed. I can't do that as efficiently if I'm using pistol/shield because I'd be removing a lightning field. The protection allies receive is mostly from condi conversion so it is incidental. Also, yes, you are missing out on the utility of Thunderclap, especially when your squad mesmer pulls people with focus.

[Sugar Min.5834]

Oh, I missed out on Superspeed. Now I can clearly see why many preferred hammer over P/S. Guess i'll have to get both sets for situational needs. Thank you.

[Dediggefedde.4961]

Overshield also offers a +7% damage reduction when having protection. So, it's not completely wasted.Unless you run shield, all 3 traits here are a bit underwhelming.Personally, I like to use auto defense bomber in WvW zergs, since once in a while you run out of stability when enemies bomb you. Then having a ticking blind field feels pretty nice.Resetting your F1 skill depending on your HP every 2min sounds a bit useless to me. First, as a supporter, you want to use that for your allies. Also, if your life just drops a little before getting healed up again, it's wasted and goes on CD. When using this trait in a zerg, I never noticed having a benefit from it.

[Turkeyspit.3965]

@Chaba.5410 said:

@"talprofil.5986" said:Only, it is not nonsense. The other two traits are useless in WvW. When you're running in an organized WvW group, your health is not going to drop below the threshold for Automated Medical Response. And when you are using medkit, the auto-"attack" doesn't need to be recharged.

That auto-attack (Med Kit 1) isn't what would get recharged, as it isn't a "healing skill". Activating and stowing the kit is what triggers on-heal effects, but since it doesn't have a cooldown, that point is moot anyways. What will get recharged though, is the tool belt ability Bandage Self (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bandage_Self) which while the F1 toolbelt also isn't considered a healing skill for on-heal effect purposes, it does activate Cleansing Synergy (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cleansing_Synergy) which isn't triggered by activating/stowing Medi-Kit.

Mental gymnastics notwithstanding (lol), Automated Medical Response is not a stellar trait, but I wouldn't characterize it as completely useless, and it is more tied to the utility of Hammer vs Shield. The AoE stun on Hammer 5 isn't something to sneeze at in my opinion, neither is Electro-Whirl or Shock Shield. Strike Damage is also a means of generating barrier, and while I haven't checked, I'd assume the hammer does more physical DPS than pistol, meaning you would generate more barrier albeit still a pitiful amount if you're full Minstrel.

I'd suggest both builds can be viable depending on what you want to prioritize.

I've been using Hammer all this time, but I am seriously thinking of swapping to Pistol/Shield as now you don't need the Hammer 5 lightning field because of Speed of Synergy trait.

EDIT: sorry, drifted into a different lane. All the above being said, I think the benefit of the trait is sub par to Over Shield, for the extra 7% DR whenever protection boon is up whether it's given by other support, or self-given via purity of purpose; given how Hammer Rev and Axe Scourge are pretty common in zerging, the chances of getting hit by vulnerability (which you can change to Protection) are reasonably high.

[Chaba.5410]

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:I've been using Hammer all this time, but I am seriously thinking of swapping to Pistol/Shield as now you don't need the Hammer 5 lightning field because of Speed of Synergy trait.

Huh? They just moved the effect from one of the replaced traits to Speed of Synergy. There isn't a change.

[Endaris.1452]

@Chaba.5410 said:

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:I've been using Hammer all this time, but I am seriously thinking of swapping to Pistol/Shield as now you don't need the Hammer 5 lightning field because of Speed of Synergy trait.

Huh? They just moved the effect from one of the replaced traits to Speed of Synergy. There isn't a change.

There was a change.Previously, only blasts in lightning fields would grant AoE superspeed. Now it is blasts in any type of combo field.Also thanks for the corrections regarding Over Shield.I have mainly played Support Scrapper in PvE and PvP so I wasn't quite as aware.

[Chaba.5410]

@"talprofil.5986" said:

@Chaba.5410 said:

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:I've been using Hammer all this time, but I am seriously thinking of swapping to Pistol/Shield as now you don't need the Hammer 5 lightning field because of Speed of Synergy trait.

Huh? They just moved the effect from one of the replaced traits to Speed of Synergy. There isn't a change.

There was a change.Previously, only blasts in lightning fields would grant AoE superspeed. Now it is blasts in any type of combo field.

Ah! I didn't pay attention to that part lol. Thanks!

Also thanks for the corrections regarding Over Shield.I have mainly played Support Scrapper in PvE and PvP so I wasn't quite as aware.

Yea, the superspeed is pretty important in WvW because open field fights are highly mobile. It isn't like point-fighting in PvP.

[Sugar Min.5834]

But we can't blast Superspeed from combo fields if we don't have a skill with a effective blast finisher. As a Support, I believe the only useful blast finisher we have is the Infusion Bomb which is player position drop with a delayed detonation. Acid Bomb has a even longer delay time and pushes you backward which I find it too slow to be effective and also hard to position myself.

Magnetic Inversion (shield 4 blast) although not a instant blast, it is the only mobile blast finisher we have and detonation is instant after activating it. I mostly use it on my Purge Gyro during unexpected push by the enemies. Sometimes the two cleanse/conversion per sec pulse is not enough when the enemy has liked a thousand scourges in their zerg.

I am trying to find out if there are hidden reasons or activation chains that I am not aware with the Hammer. I am new in this profession. Once again, thank you all for sharing <3

[redwing.9580]

@Mil.3562 said:But we can't blast Superspeed from combo fields if we don't have a skill with a effective blast finisher. As a Support, I believe the only useful blast finisher we have is the Infusion Bomb which is player position drop with a delayed detonation. Acid Bomb has a even longer delay time and pushes you backward which I find it too slow to be effective and also hard to position myself.

Magnetic Inversion (shield 4 blast) although not a instant blast, it is the only mobile blast finisher we have and detonation is instant after activating it. I mostly use it on my Purge Gyro during unexpected push by the enemies. Sometimes the two cleanse/conversion per sec pulse is not enough when the enemy has liked a thousand scourges in their zerg.

I am trying to find out if there are hidden reasons or activation chains that I am not aware with the Hammer. I am new in this profession. Once again, thank you all for sharing <3

hammer 3 counts as 2 leap finishers that can also be used to trigger it, as well as having a field from hammer 5 to actually give one for that trait to proc, and at least in wvw most groups stop and stack before a big push, so its easy to throw down med kit 5 during that to have speed for a push

[Sugar Min.5834]

@redwing.9580 said:

@Mil.3562 said:But we can't blast Superspeed from combo fields if we don't have a skill with a effective blast finisher. As a Support, I believe the only useful blast finisher we have is the Infusion Bomb which is player position drop with a delayed detonation. Acid Bomb has a even longer delay time and pushes you backward which I find it too slow to be effective and also hard to position myself.

Magnetic Inversion (shield 4 blast) although not a instant blast, it is the only mobile blast finisher we have and detonation is instant after activating it. I mostly use it on my Purge Gyro during unexpected push by the enemies. Sometimes the two cleanse/conversion per sec pulse is not enough when the enemy has liked a thousand scourges in their zerg.

I am trying to find out if there are hidden reasons or activation chains that I am not aware with the Hammer. I am new in this profession. Once again, thank you all for sharing <3

hammer 3 counts as 2 leap finishers that can also be used to trigger it, as well as having a field from hammer 5 to actually give one for that trait to proc, and at least in wvw most groups stop and stack before a big push, so its easy to throw down med kit 5 during that to have speed for a push

Leap finishers give Superspeed to the caster only and Shield is the only weapon with a blast finisher that affects five allies in the blast area. Now that blast finishers executed on any fields will give Superspeed, I believe Hammer 5 lightning field is not as needed as before.

[Chaba.5410]

@Mil.3562 said:But we can't blast Superspeed from combo fields if we don't have a skill with a effective blast finisher. As a Support, I believe the only useful blast finisher we have is the Infusion Bomb which is player position drop with a delayed detonation. Acid Bomb has a even longer delay time and pushes you backward which I find it too slow to be effective and also hard to position myself.

Magnetic Inversion (shield 4 blast) although not a instant blast, it is the only mobile blast finisher we have and detonation is instant after activating it. I mostly use it on my Purge Gyro during unexpected push by the enemies. Sometimes the two cleanse/conversion per sec pulse is not enough when the enemy has liked a thousand scourges in their zerg.

• Infusion Bomb is ground-targeted. Throw it ahead of yourself to where you will be, not where you are. Same with elixir gun 5.
• I tend to use hammer 2 with Purge Gyro.
• I prefer to use elixir gun 4 with 5 for the AoE cleanse. If it isn't available when 5 is up, I again use hammer 2.
• The Acid Bomb leap can get canceled when you weapon swap.