Ele changes in the latest patch notes - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Ele changes in the latest patch notes

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  • Auburner.6945Auburner.6945 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 13, 2019

    @SoulSlavocracy.4902 said:
    That is comforting, thanks for making it more clear - been working so haven't had much time yet to process these changes. I will have to try out staff weaver next week and see if its any different - from what you guys have said I'm expecting my damage to be close to what it was before.

    They forgot to include the change to Power Overwhelming in the bulk-post and apologized for it in the middle of the thread, so these calculations are based off of what has been newly said few hours ago. The change is 150 Power out of Fire, double the bonus within - need at least 10 stacks of might to gain either bonus.

    Pull the strings. Watch them dance.

  • Ganathar.4956Ganathar.4956 Member ✭✭✭

    I'm very satisfied with the changes now that we know that power overwhelming is becoming a power trait. It was an essential change that was missing. Making the 20% cd reductions in elemental lines baseline is a pretty good design choice and it can help to better tune the master tier traits in the future. I still believe that staff could use a few buffs in air and earth in the next patch though. Its fire dependency for damage is not good and it's not like it's a top meta weapon in PvE at this point anyway.

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ganathar.4956 said:
    I'm very satisfied with the changes now that we know that power overwhelming is becoming a power trait. It was an essential change that was missing. Making the 20% cd reductions in elemental lines baseline is a pretty good design choice and it can help to better tune the master tier traits in the future. I still believe that staff could use a few buffs in air and earth in the next patch though. Its fire dependency for damage is not good and it's not like it's a top meta weapon in PvE at this point anyway.

    Tbh air is fine for the most part. I'd just remove stormsoul and BttH traits and add something supportive, CC related or mobility based, there's too many damage traits that compete with each other for no reason.

    When it comes to staff, ice spike, eruption and meteor shower could use some cast time reductions and lava font a bit of damage increase (whether through more damage per tick or addition of burn stack per pulse). Projectiles that follow ground as well as some dual skills could use some traveling speed increases as well. I wouldnt complain if healing rain cleansed a bit faster and maybe had 10 man cap because it's a huge aoe. I have no problem of fire being the main sustained damage on staff because staff brings huge utility in form of aoe fields, aoe CC (both soft and hard) aoe cleanse and a decent burst from other attunements.

    Earth..needs a lot of work. Both traits and skills. Not enough focus on conditions, not enough focus on active defense or even barriers, not enough focus on stun breaking/stability. My favorite part about earth are reflects and blinds and they are far from being earth's main goal.

    Deso's favorite FROG
    Master of afk and kiting
    The God of Pips and Gud Deeps
    Froggo himself

  • Ganathar.4956Ganathar.4956 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 13, 2019

    @steki.1478 said:

    @Ganathar.4956 said:
    I'm very satisfied with the changes now that we know that power overwhelming is becoming a power trait. It was an essential change that was missing. Making the 20% cd reductions in elemental lines baseline is a pretty good design choice and it can help to better tune the master tier traits in the future. I still believe that staff could use a few buffs in air and earth in the next patch though. Its fire dependency for damage is not good and it's not like it's a top meta weapon in PvE at this point anyway.

    Tbh air is fine for the most part. I'd just remove stormsoul and BttH traits and add something supportive, CC related or mobility based, there's too many damage traits that compete with each other for no reason.

    When it comes to staff, ice spike, eruption and meteor shower could use some cast time reductions and lava font a bit of damage increase (whether through more damage per tick or addition of burn stack per pulse). Projectiles that follow ground as well as some dual skills could use some traveling speed increases as well. I wouldnt complain if healing rain cleansed a bit faster and maybe had 10 man cap because it's a huge aoe. I have no problem of fire being the main sustained damage on staff because staff brings huge utility in form of aoe fields, aoe CC (both soft and hard) aoe cleanse and a decent burst from other attunements.

    Earth..needs a lot of work. Both traits and skills. Not enough focus on conditions, not enough focus on active defense or even barriers, not enough focus on stun breaking/stability. My favorite part about earth are reflects and blinds and they are far from being earth's main goal.

    I was more referring to the staff earth and air skills, not the earth and fire trait lines. But yes, the earth trait line does need some more work. Air trait line is fine, but another support option there for tempest would probably not hurt. Fire should remain the main sustained damage of staff, but other attunements should get a bit more damage so that your damage application does not hit rock bottom as soon as you switch attunements for something else. Just something more to help you out a little until you can switch back to fire, and to make other elemental trait lines a bit more appealing for staff.

  • len.7809len.7809 Member ✭✭
    edited July 13, 2019

    If shatterstone and ice spike animation doesnt take that long to perform, it could definitely be a nice dps output for wvw. It's slow and easy to avoid, lightning strike is instant cast, target, 5s CD, vs shatterstone ground target, 1/2s cast time, ground targeting, 180 radius(wow much better), 3s CD. One skill fails when dodged, one fails when walk away from 180 radius.
    Imo elementalist is still MEDIOCRE and Anet is still nerfing it. Too many skills that has long animation times and it's hard to land, no skill/trait/utility skill source of quickness to compensate the long casting time.

  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    For PvP:

    • Tempest will still be insignificant. Some buffs, but the real issues aren't addressed.
    • Any FA still not viable.
    • S/D bunker got some minor buffs, but nothing significant. Didn't need it, so with some nerfs to rev it might be alright.
    • S/D fire same, some more burning, maybe switch to some precision amulet for Burning Precision? Will try that out.

    But yeah, as someone already said, the nerfs to other builds are (S/D) eles biggest buffs. Warrior and holo are still much more versatile though. But anyway, a good update, I guess.

  • MyPuppy.8970MyPuppy.8970 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I feel pretty excited and I haven't felt this way since maybe the preview of the last e spec. Maybe I'm just glad they're addressing some of the core concerns and working on the core traitlines rather than some arbitrary numbers on random skills. Makes me want to play again.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I still want to see anet make all of the on swap trigger on overload of the atument type a kind of doable atument maybe even making the traits in that given atuments become stronger during the overload it self. Super soothing mist during water overload would be fun, Super MS during fire overload would bring back the old MS nado days, your earth overloads would be very tankly and air would have a lot of super speed on it i guess.

    I realty like the ideal of the trait line giving you an effect in all atument but at the same time makes the given atument feel more define its only dmg that this is working for i would love to see it expatiated to def effect as well as support effects.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @MyPuppy.8970 said:
    I feel pretty excited and I haven't felt this way since maybe the preview of the last e spec. Maybe I'm just glad they're addressing some of the core concerns and working on the core traitlines rather than some arbitrary numbers on random skills. Makes me want to play again.

    As I said on some other thread, this is arguably the best patch ele received since HoT.

    Deso's favorite FROG
    Master of afk and kiting
    The God of Pips and Gud Deeps
    Froggo himself

  • Uriel.6310Uriel.6310 Member ✭✭

    Tbh.. its not truly fair to tempest players who like playing dmg to be looked at as a support class. Ele by design is based on doing dmg... even firebrand is more effective at doing dmg and can keep points all the same time. However, ill wait to see how things look after this patch. As a tempest player I dont see much of the changes as a help to stay alive or do damage.

  • Zunki.3916Zunki.3916 Member ✭✭✭

    Power Overwhelming: This trait has been reworked. It now grants 150 bonus power while the elementalist has at least 10 stacks of might. This power bonus is doubled while attuned to fire.

    Oh boy that changes quite a lot.

    Viable != Optimal

    Not viable = You only get carried, 10 players with a build as "viable as yours" can't properly do it.

  • Mr Godlike.6098Mr Godlike.6098 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 14, 2019

    (PVP)

    It's nice to see patch that buffs stuff but I don't see anything that gives us entry to Atm meta. All our usable pvp builds are geting buffed in this one:

    Overload Air: Static Charge buff is good idea but I doubt that it will be enough to stop other classes from just tanking it's damage or just cleaving us to death.
    Tempest Overload Skills: Nice little bennefit outside stunbreak...i wonder how much burn will stuck overload fire with reworked Burning Rage.
    Pyromancer's Training: Well... moving all cooldown traits is great!
    Burning Rage: I doubt Fire weavers will sacrafice condi cleanse for it but I will definitely want to try it with my core staff build. Burn is one of very few things that helps us damage things immediately (like rev starting paying attention to us).
    Flow like Water: I wonder about healing numbers of it - both sword weaver and focus tempest will have some benefit with it but is really needs to do something to compete with Cleansing Wave/Soothing Disruption.
    Piercing Shards: This little thing might be intresing for core FA builds...extra 10% is not that bad for spaminng Electric Discharge's.
    Air traits changes: I bet FA boys are quite happy with tons of ferocity...stupid idea...but running paladin amulet might have some sense now...
    Strength of Stone: We are quite good with spamming immobilize (ekhem Elemental Surge) might be possible to get some ridculus bleed stacks.
    Earthen Blessing: +Latent Stamina+vigor+energy sigil...will it be possible to spam dodges like crazy? To bad... it's earth trait...and all earth trait's right now are bad doing it's one job - keeping us alive.
    Power Overwhelming: Somehow I had fun watching whole forum on fire casue of raid dps boys...for me this trait needs to do only one job - melt zergs in wvw...will see after patch how it works with all ballance changes combined.

    More important stuff is again happeing somewhere else. Rev/Ranger nerfs are very healthy news for us...but new thief portal gives me creeps. Scrapper might be now stupidly broken...I still belive we end up us ranked only class.

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Mr Godlike.6098 said:
    (PVP)

    It's nice to see patch that buffs stuff but I don't see anything that gives us entry to Atm meta. All our usable pvp builds are geting buffed in this one:

    Overload Air: Static Charge buff is good idea but I doubt that it will be enough to stop other classes from just tanking it's damage or just cleaving us to death.
    Tempest Overload Skills: Nice little bennefit outside stunbreak...i wonder how much burn will stuck overload fire with reworked Burning Rage.

    Dps tempest is far from usable and support one barely benefits from damage increase.

    Pyromancer's Training: Well... moving all cooldown traits is great!
    Burning Rage: I doubt Fire weavers will sacrafice condi cleanse for it but I will definitely want to try it with my core staff build. Burn is one of very few things that helps us damage things immediately (like rev starting paying attention to us).

    Burning rage works only in melee range, not something you want to do with staff. Condi is also not something that you want to do with staff.

    Flow like Water: I wonder about healing numbers of it - both sword weaver and focus tempest will have some benefit with it but is really needs to do something to compete with Cleansing Wave/Soothing Disruption.

    Soothing disruption is already useless on weaver (or support tempest if you're using shouts) and cleansing wave can also be ignored because cleansing water already provides strong cleanse. Since it has 10 sec icd I'm assuming that it's gonna be a good heal, probably similar or better than healing ripple.

    Piercing Shards: This little thing might be intresing for core FA builds...extra 10% is not that bad for spaminng Electric Discharge's.
    Air traits changes: I bet FA boys are quite happy with tons of ferocity...stupid idea...but running paladin amulet might have some sense now...

    FA builds certainly look better this patch, but is sacrificing arcane for water a good decision? Will definitely need to be tested.

    Strength of Stone: We are quite good with spamming immobilize (ekhem Elemental Surge) might be possible to get some ridculus bleed stacks.

    Sadly, earth+arcane is a terrible combo because you have no offensive potential and bleed is a lot weaker than burns from fire. The only thing that might work from this is core ele with all 3 of those specs.

    Earthen Blessing: +Latent Stamina+vigor+energy sigil...will it be possible to spam dodges like crazy? To bad... it's earth trait...and all earth trait's right now are bad doing it's one job - keeping us alive.

    Earth spec seriously needs some kind of personal sustain like barrier or something, similar to defense on warrior.

    Power Overwhelming: Somehow I had fun watching whole forum on fire casue of raid dps boys...for me this trait needs to do only one job - melt zergs in wvw...will see after patch how it works with all ballance changes combined.

    It's definitely worse than the old 10% buff from pyromancer, but now the buff is global and air+weaver also got buffed so as a whole it's better than before, but I wouldnt call it significantly better.

    More important stuff is again happeing somewhere else. Rev/Ranger nerfs are very healthy news for us...but new thief portal gives me creeps. Scrapper might be now stupidly broken...I still belive we end up us ranked only class.

    Hammer rev in wvw didnt get touched so that's still an issue for eles, but everything else seems pretty fine.

    Deso's favorite FROG
    Master of afk and kiting
    The God of Pips and Gud Deeps
    Froggo himself

  • Mr Godlike.6098Mr Godlike.6098 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 14, 2019

    @steki.1478 said:

    @Mr Godlike.6098 said:
    Pyromancer's Training: Well... moving all cooldown traits is great!
    Burning Rage: I doubt Fire weavers will sacrafice condi cleanse for it but I will definitely want to try it with my core staff build. Burn is one of very few things that helps us damage things immediately (like rev starting paying attention to us).

    Burning rage works only in melee range, not something you want to do with staff. Condi is also not something that you want to do with staff.

    Well in perfect world nobody ever bothers about that one dude spaming meator showers over the node right? In most situations we will forced to deal with something in melee range and outside Lightning Rod we can only relay on various sources of burn for counter-burst.

    Flow like Water: 10cd exist casue pew pew thief spammer could heal us to 100% with just Swirling Winds. If healing is under 500 with menders I doubt bunker weavers will care about this trait at all.

  • MyPuppy.8970MyPuppy.8970 Member ✭✭✭✭

    For a 10s icd, anything less than 1600 hp with menders isn't worth the slot.

  • I forgot that feeling when your class gets a buff and nice rework. Feels good man.

  • lLobo.7960lLobo.7960 Member ✭✭✭

    @DutchRiders.2871 said:
    I forgot that feeling when your class gets a buff and nice rework. Feels good man.

    Get ready for the upcoming patches then... you know how this rollercoaster ride goes...

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    So far it seems good and i am trying some real off the wall builds. There should be more info on how this patch is by next week i am guessing.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • Tinnel.4369Tinnel.4369 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jski.6180 said:
    So far it seems good and i am trying some real off the wall builds. There should be more info on how this patch is by next week i am guessing.

    Water, Fire, X seems usable across core and elites.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tinnel.4369 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    So far it seems good and i am trying some real off the wall builds. There should be more info on how this patch is by next week i am guessing.

    Water, Fire, X seems usable across core and elites.

    Ya that was a good mix before the update too i am trying to work earth line in.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • Ojimaru.8970Ojimaru.8970 Member ✭✭✭✭

    For PVE Fresh Air Tempest, would you say that replacing Fire traitline with Water makes the most sense? From Fire, I would at best get 150 Power if following old-old-old rotations, which is probably much less than 20% (multiplicative?) damage boost. Thoughts?

    "Thief? How rude! I'm a Procurement Specialist." -Glenn Gynnafante

  • Auburner.6945Auburner.6945 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ojimaru.8970 said:
    For PVE Fresh Air Tempest, would you say that replacing Fire traitline with Water makes the most sense? From Fire, I would at best get 150 Power if following old-old-old rotations, which is probably much less than 20% (multiplicative?) damage boost. Thoughts?

    Recent rotation is Air-Water because as a Tempest, you barely camp anything else but Air.

    Pull the strings. Watch them dance.

  • Lord of the Fire.6870Lord of the Fire.6870 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 27, 2019

    @zencow.3651 said:

    @steki.1478 said:
    Dps tempest was never a thing in pvp and wvw

    It WAS for a time until:
    Air Overload nerf and cooldown nerfs because of alacrity, sustain nerfs that ended the glory days of Tempest in PvP https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Game_updates/2016-07-26#Elementalist
    Nerfed exclusively for PvE and WvW to make sure it wasn't meta anywhere https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Game_updates/2017-02-22#Elementalist
    Wildfire's hits per second got capped, both Fire and Air Overload got nerfed, Harmonious Conduit went from 5 to 4 seconds pre-PoF to sell weaver https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Game_updates/2017-08-08#Elementalist

    Jupp they nerfed Tempest a few times shortly before the release of Pof especially the overloads people were a bit salty and didn't wanted to change to staff weaver then..

    (to avoid 2 posts in a row)

    In general the update now was.. I don't know see for your self
    out of SC homepage :

    Tempest with sceptre and horn : 35k
    Fresh Air Weaver with sword : 37k
    Condi dagger: 39k ( I don't think that will stay there nerf incoming)
    I have tested just Staff Weaver (arcane-fire)

    On big hitboxes around 32k on small 26k

    Actually I'm surprised they didn't move much besides condi ele. The only wish I would have is the same overwork for the arcane trait line which they have make for the others and maybe allow the aurasharing for all to go to 10 people with the trait.

    e.g moving the arcane shield in and giving a new trait point 75-125 fury when over 10 might

    AH before I forget there is a bug with the condi ele sigil of earth toughness get ignored by the the earth trait which convert toughness into condi dmg.

    In general sword weaver has also many downsides and the distance between build isn't that far which shrinking under real circumstances even more so viable is everything of them somewhere .

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lord of the Fire.6870 said:

    @zencow.3651 said:

    @steki.1478 said:
    Dps tempest was never a thing in pvp and wvw

    It WAS for a time until:
    Air Overload nerf and cooldown nerfs because of alacrity, sustain nerfs that ended the glory days of Tempest in PvP https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Game_updates/2016-07-26#Elementalist
    Nerfed exclusively for PvE and WvW to make sure it wasn't meta anywhere https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Game_updates/2017-02-22#Elementalist
    Wildfire's hits per second got capped, both Fire and Air Overload got nerfed, Harmonious Conduit went from 5 to 4 seconds pre-PoF to sell weaver https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Game_updates/2017-08-08#Elementalist

    Jupp they nerfed Tempest a few times shortly before the release of Pof especially the overloads people were a bit salty and didn't wanted to change to staff weaver then..

    (to avoid 2 posts in a row)

    In general the update now was.. I don't know see for your self
    out of SC homepage :

    Tempest with sceptre and horn : 35k
    Fresh Air Weaver with sword : 37k
    Condi dagger: 39k ( I don't think that will stay there nerf incoming)
    I have tested just Staff Weaver (arcane-fire)

    On big hitboxes around 32k on small 26k

    Actually I'm surprised they didn't move much besides condi ele. The only wish I would have is the same overwork for the arcane trait line which they have make for the others and maybe allow the aurasharing for all to go to 10 people with the trait.

    e.g moving the arcane shield in and giving a new trait point 75-125 fury when over 10 might

    AH before I forget there is a bug with the condi ele sigil of earth toughness get ignored by the the earth trait which convert toughness into condi dmg.

    In general sword weaver has also many downsides and the distance between build isn't that far which shrinking under real circumstances even more so viable is everything of them somewhere .

    You can get more dps on power staff with either air or water instead of arcane spec. Arcane isn't worth it for power builds anymore.

    Mirage also does more damage than condi dagger on certain bosses so if something needs nerfs it's mirage, but I do agree that both do a bit too much. 35k would be a lot more reasonable.

    Deso's favorite FROG
    Master of afk and kiting
    The God of Pips and Gud Deeps
    Froggo himself

  • Lord of the Fire.6870Lord of the Fire.6870 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 27, 2019

    @steki.1478 said:

    @Lord of the Fire.6870 said:

    @zencow.3651 said:

    @steki.1478 said:
    Dps tempest was never a thing in pvp and wvw

    It WAS for a time until:
    Air Overload nerf and cooldown nerfs because of alacrity, sustain nerfs that ended the glory days of Tempest in PvP https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Game_updates/2016-07-26#Elementalist
    Nerfed exclusively for PvE and WvW to make sure it wasn't meta anywhere https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Game_updates/2017-02-22#Elementalist
    Wildfire's hits per second got capped, both Fire and Air Overload got nerfed, Harmonious Conduit went from 5 to 4 seconds pre-PoF to sell weaver https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Game_updates/2017-08-08#Elementalist

    Jupp they nerfed Tempest a few times shortly before the release of Pof especially the overloads people were a bit salty and didn't wanted to change to staff weaver then..

    (to avoid 2 posts in a row)

    In general the update now was.. I don't know see for your self
    out of SC homepage :

    Tempest with sceptre and horn : 35k
    Fresh Air Weaver with sword : 37k
    Condi dagger: 39k ( I don't think that will stay there nerf incoming)
    I have tested just Staff Weaver (arcane-fire)

    On big hitboxes around 32k on small 26k

    Actually I'm surprised they didn't move much besides condi ele. The only wish I would have is the same overwork for the arcane trait line which they have make for the others and maybe allow the aurasharing for all to go to 10 people with the trait.

    e.g moving the arcane shield in and giving a new trait point 75-125 fury when over 10 might

    AH before I forget there is a bug with the condi ele sigil of earth toughness get ignored by the the earth trait which convert toughness into condi dmg.

    In general sword weaver has also many downsides and the distance between build isn't that far which shrinking under real circumstances even more so viable is everything of them somewhere .

    You can get more dps on power staff with either air or water instead of arcane spec. Arcane isn't worth it for power builds anymore.

    Mirage also does more damage than condi dagger on certain bosses so if something needs nerfs it's mirage, but I do agree that both do a bit too much. 35k would be a lot more reasonable.

    I was talking about staff Weaver fresh air doesn't work with just staff in the old days as Tempest you only wanted to cast air overload and 1 this was enough. The current built go for as Weaver and Tempest using high dps skills on their weapons + air overload or in case of sword weaver a lot of high dps skills + the 20% dps increase of the full attunement. At least what I don't see working is a fresh air staff weaver.

    But I tested fire-water staff weaver with the result of 2k less you can argue I have so much(or little) more because of tons of boons on me but actually I get most of them with FB Heal + support Renegade.

    I also have an idea to close this gap when you use another rota then usually. Actually I have a rota which is different then the usually when I'm destroying a lot of small mobs though AoEs I'm doing this by going when I'm in earth I don't go through fire instead I'm going through water so when Lahar and Pressure Blast count as water skill then you could theoretically squeeze more dps out. There 2 things which make this complicated 1 Lahar has a higher CD then the other skills (20 instead of 15 sec) which force you to run one round this way and the second round the way of the old rota and I don't know how the summoning weapons fit in there from the timing.

    In short an ultra complicated rota which maybe work for just 1-2k more

    EDIT: Okay I tested it . It does give you shortly higher dps but in the rota there are too much phases which causes dps lose and goes in total even more down.

    • summoning weapons timing works perfectly better then in the normal rota.
    • Lahars higher CD is less of a concern because you can reset the rota every time you cast Lightning Storm
    • Lahar had trough the trait higher DPS because we are in water , Pressure Blast still has the boni from fire(water doesn't apply) still with this it has only 1.6k dmg this is a big dps lose(also this skill has like Ice Bow some identity problems ? for what is it good?)
    • I miss remembered the trait gives boni on skill when in water not on water skills.
    • most of the dmg comes or goes through when we are in fire/fire by using metorshower or the elite of the right side so increasing the rota without big dps skill in between decease the DPS. for this to work the trait would need to increase dps even more and Pressure Blast need to replaces with something which has the same dps which has the metorshower -.-

    Anyway was a fun idea.

  • Moona.6327Moona.6327 Member ✭✭

    So what's the best openworld Weaver setup so far based on testing?

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Moona.6327 said:
    So what's the best openworld Weaver setup so far based on testing?

    Whichever you like, there's like 10 different builds that work great and all core specs are part of at least one build.

    For power you have fire, water or air. For condi it's fire, earth or arcane. However arcane mostly shines when there's allies around to share arcane power with. Any combination of these 2 and weaver (or even tempest) will work well on most weapons.

    Deso's favorite FROG
    Master of afk and kiting
    The God of Pips and Gud Deeps
    Froggo himself

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