Move damage modifier from Unscathed Commander to Inspired Virtue — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Move damage modifier from Unscathed Commander to Inspired Virtue

Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭

One of the things holding Core Guardian back in PvE is that Dragonhunter gets at least 30% damage in modifiers from their traitline (Zealot's Aggression, Pure of Sight and Big Game Hunter), while for Core, Unscathed Commander only grants 20% when you have Aegis active. One single hit from an enemy reduces a Core Guard's damage by 20%.

On a golem this is fine, but in actual gameplay, not so much.

Many have suggested changing the trait to give you 20% damage while retaliation is up, which is a lot easier to manage. Problem with doing that though, is then DH will just run the Virtues traitline and be even more of a DPS beast.

So I suggest moving the passive 20% damage modifier from Unscathed Commander and tack it on to Inspired Virtue, which means only someone running with Virtue of Justice / Resolve / Courage will receive that modifier, which will not apply to DH because when the Dragonhunter trait line is equipped, Virtue of Justice becomes Spear of Justice, etc. Same goes for Firebrand as their F1-F3 are replaced by Tome of Justice et al.

Then replace Unscathed Commander with some other Adept trait.

Comments

  • RUNICBLACK.7630RUNICBLACK.7630 Member ✭✭✭

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:
    One of the things holding Core Guardian back in PvE is that Dragonhunter gets at least 30% damage in modifiers from their traitline (Zealot's Aggression, Pure of Sight and Big Game Hunter), while for Core, Unscathed Commander only grants 20% when you have Aegis active. One single hit from an enemy reduces a Core Guard's damage by 20%.

    On a golem this is fine, but in actual gameplay, not so much.

    Many have suggested changing the trait to give you 20% damage while retaliation is up, which is a lot easier to manage. Problem with doing that though, is then DH will just run the Virtues traitline and be even more of a DPS beast.

    So I suggest moving the passive 20% damage modifier from Unscathed Commander and tack it on to Inspired Virtue, which means only someone running with Virtue of Justice / Resolve / Courage will receive that modifier, which will not apply to DH because when the Dragonhunter trait line is equipped, Virtue of Justice becomes Spear of Justice, etc. Same goes for Firebrand as their F1-F3 are replaced by Tome of Justice et al.

    Then replace Unscathed Commander with some other Adept trait.

    I get where your coming from on the issue with Unscathed Contender being to easy to strip off but if you were to improve it's ability to much (so as to allow it to stay up and relevant in combat for longer it would have to have it's bonus adjusted down or moved up from Major Adept to either Major Master or even Major Grandmaster depending on how easy it is to maintain) and I'm not sure I understand how you want it linked to Inspired Virtue , because you still get the extra bonus boons from that trait if you are running Core Guardian, Dragonhunter or Firebrand(I just double checked to be sure) . This also leads to the question of why disallow access to the DH because of the bonus, if any player wants to play a DH that glassy for bonuses to damage but in doing so potentially they lose a fair amount of sustain I would say let them. The DH was originally more of a heavy DPS spec anyway before all of the nerf's to it, they could just allow the 20% bonus from UC last for a 1/2 to 1 full second after Aegis drops this would allow it to still have an impact without getting out of hand or you could also play it where you have to have both Retal and Fury up for the the full 20% and have just 5% or 10% if you only have one of them. These are just quick suggestions

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  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 29, 2019

    @RUNICBLACK.7630 said:
    and I'm not sure I understand how you want it linked to Inspired Virtue , because you still get the extra bonus boons from that trait if you are running Core Guardian, Dragonhunter or Firebrand(I just double checked to be sure) .

    Ah, OK. Well you get my point, which is to ensure that the bonus damage apply only to someone not running either FB or DH. There needs to be something to close the gap, because not only is Core at around a 10-15% deficit, their deficit grows even more once they lose aegis.

    There are, I think, sufficient differences between Core Power Guard and Power DH (traps, changes to F1-F3, etc) that we don't need a huge damage gap to incentivize people to choose DH - but currently they do so because there is too much of a damage benefit to not run that traitline.

    @RUNICBLACK.7630 said:
    This also leads to the question of why disallow access to the DH because of the bonus, if any player wants to play a DH that glassy for bonuses to damage but in doing so potentially they lose a fair amount of sustain I would say let them. The DH was originally more of a heavy DPS spec anyway before all of the nerf's to it

    To my knowledge DH remains in a very good place in all of PvE: OW, T4/CM Fractals, and Raiding. Can't really suggest increasing their damage any further.

    I love the flow of Core Guard. I like having the freedom to change my utility around as I don't rely on any of them too much for my DPS. I love how I can support allies through my F1-F3, and I find while solo, I'm tankier with more means of self sustain. And I recognize that for such benefits, there must be a cost, and so I have no problem with DH having higher damage output - but I think the current gap is too large.

    Luckily I have received 0 flak from T4 pug groups when I play core, but the reality is if I were DH, I'd show an easy 2-3K more DPS on their arc meters, all because of traitline damage modifiers.

    ANET seems focused on balancing out core vs. elite specs of late. So please do so.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Comparing DH, virtues, zeal and radiance:

    Radiance. Retribution 10% damage. Radiant Power 10% critic and 150 ferocity. RI 25% criti.
    Virtues. Unscathed Contender, 20% while having aegis. Power of the Virtuous 1% damage per boon (probably 6-7% in a raid scenario). More procs for VoJ on a power build.
    Zeal. Fiery Wrath 7% damage. Symbolic Exposure 5% damage. Zealous Blade 240 power and 20% CD GS. Symbolic power 30% more damage on symbols. Symbolic avenger 10% damage.
    DH. Zealot's Aggression 10% damage to targets with cripple. Big Game Hunter 20% damage to tethered targets. And you have access to procession blades.

    Radiance and zeal are way ahead of DH and virtues in a power build, no matter what (condi too). The choice comes down between virtues and DH. IMO Unscathed Contender is close to non-existent, making deal DH always better. If the 20% damage from Unscathed Contender is constant, it will only make virtues an alternative to DH. It will not dethrone radiance or zeal, and DH/radiance/zeal should remain the strongest build (but the margin will be down to less than 5%). We do not really have to make any re-arrangements in virtues for that.

    PvP, constant 20% might be too strong. Where it could be split to half that amount. And now we have a core build that is relatively competitive, with more consistent damage, less burst and slightly overall less damage. I think this would be a fair trade-off between various lines and builds, compared to now, where no trade-offs exist, since DH is significantly better. And since last balance patch, DH has been better than core even in sPvP.

  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @otto.5684 said:
    Radiance and zeal are way ahead of DH and virtues in a power build, no matter what (condi too). The choice comes down between virtues and DH. IMO Unscathed Contender is close to non-existent, making deal DH always better. If the 20% damage from Unscathed Contender is constant, it will only make virtues an alternative to DH. It will not dethrone radiance or zeal, and DH/radiance/zeal should remain the strongest build (but the margin will be down to less than 5%). We do not really have to make any re-arrangements in virtues for that.

    I'm not a number cruncher so I'll take your word. My suggestion is simply this: give Core access to a permanent / potential 100% uptime 20% damage modifier, and that DH shouldn't be able to use that to increase their DPS numbers over what they currently have. How that is accomplished is immaterial to me.

    I think it is fair and reasonable for Core to bring more utility/personal survivability for a 5% DPS loss vs. DH which has slightly higher DPS, and added flavor of traps, changes to virtues, and access to LB. I'll concede that to min/maxers the choice will still default to DH because 5% is 5%, but at least for everyone else we would now have a real choice between these two flavors.

  • Holy Hallidor.3067Holy Hallidor.3067 Member ✭✭
    edited July 31, 2019

    Here is a proposal: Replace Unscathed Contender with

    • Unscathed Virtues: As long as all virtues are not on cooldown, this trait grants 10% increased damage. It grants an additional 10% if the guardian's virtues were not manifested.

    The last word is used in the description of the dragonhunter and firebrand altered virtues:

    • Dragonhunter: The guardian's resolve has further increased, allowing virtues to be manifested as physical aspects
    • Firebrand: Gain knowledge of Elonian lore, igniting a fierce drive to purge corruption and manifesting your Virtues as mystic tomes. Gain access to Mantras.

    Referring to the manifested keyword could provide the distinction between core and DH/FB.
    The idea is as long as you did not use all virtue's active and as long as those virtues are the core ones, i.e. they did not manifest into spear of justice, tome of justice etc. those virtues are unscathed/pure so to speak. One could certainly come up with a better name, but I think you get the concept.
    Alternatively you could switch the dmg modifier and grant power instead, a feature Anet implemented recently in other traits (referring to traits Right-Hand Strength, Zealous Blade).

  • kasoki.5180kasoki.5180 Member ✭✭✭

    Honestly I am not sure if this is a fixable issue. I don't think they can balance the game in a way that two specs are competing for the same role and are equally viable. Even if you buff core guardian, players will still deduce which one of the two is better and everyone is going to play that spec instead.

    In my opinion they should make a calculated decision which one of these two specs they want for PvE and which one for PvP and change them accordingly. As it feels to me now, Core and DH are constantly competing for the same spot and the same play style so its highly unlikely that both specs will be equally viable at the same time.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @kasoki.5180 said:
    Honestly I am not sure if this is a fixable issue. I don't think they can balance the game in a way that two specs are competing for the same role and are equally viable. Even if you buff core guardian, players will still deduce which one of the two is better and everyone is going to play that spec instead.

    In my opinion they should make a calculated decision which one of these two specs they want for PvE and which one for PvP and change them accordingly. As it feels to me now, Core and DH are constantly competing for the same spot and the same play style so its highly unlikely that both specs will be equally viable at the same time.

    It is not about top viability, it is about diversity. Core does offer things that DH does not. It is a bit more mobile and has more consistent damage. If the damage margins between them are small, you can select the play style you prefer (or fits the specific content you are playing). If the damage margins are large.. you can only play what has the higher damage, no matter what.

    And, I do not see an issue in DH and core being on near equal viability. This is what balance should strive for to begin with. You should not be at a major disadvantage if you are not running a specific build with specific skills and specific traits.

  • kasoki.5180kasoki.5180 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 1, 2019

    @otto.5684 said:

    @kasoki.5180 said:
    Honestly I am not sure if this is a fixable issue. I don't think they can balance the game in a way that two specs are competing for the same role and are equally viable. Even if you buff core guardian, players will still deduce which one of the two is better and everyone is going to play that spec instead.

    In my opinion they should make a calculated decision which one of these two specs they want for PvE and which one for PvP and change them accordingly. As it feels to me now, Core and DH are constantly competing for the same spot and the same play style so its highly unlikely that both specs will be equally viable at the same time.

    It is not about top viability, it is about diversity. Core does offer things that DH does not. It is a bit more mobile and has more consistent damage. If the damage margins between them are small, you can select the play style you prefer (or fits the specific content you are playing). If the damage margins are large.. you can only play what has the higher damage, no matter what.

    And, I do not see an issue in DH and core being on near equal viability. This is what balance should strive for to begin with. You should not be at a major disadvantage if you are not running a specific build with specific skills and specific traits.

    But that's not what I am trying to say. Of course its great that multiple specs have viability and possible build diversity. I am trying to give my opinion as to why we don't have it with these two specs at the moment.The issue is that these two specs are vying for the same spot/role/playstyle and thats whats killing any possible diversity.

    Their play style both in PvE and in PvP is marginally different. Their role in game modes is almost the same. And thus the player base will always flock to build that outperforms the other, even if advantage is by slight margin.
    If you look at Core, Dragonhunter and Firebrand its obvious that Firebrand is the only outlier, while Core and DH are almost the same thing with just a slight variations.

    ArenaNet's philosophy of shifting modifiers cant change that. And in all honesty, looking at chronomancer changes, I don't think that touching core class mechanics would make these two viable at the same time. Plus, they obviously aren't themselves sure what they even want with Longbow.

    Don't get me wrong, I am all for that both Core and DH are viable in multiple game modes, but I just don't see how would it be possible that they are both viable in the same game mode at the same time. But I am completely open to have my mind changed about this issue as I would absolutely love to see more diversity and more builds across all profs and game modes

  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 1, 2019

    @kasoki.5180 said:

    But that's not what I am trying to say. Of course its great that multiple specs have viability and possible build diversity. I am trying to give my opinion as to why we don't have it with these two specs at the moment.The issue is that these two specs are vying for the same spot/role/playstyle and thats whats killing any possible diversity.

    Their play style both in PvE and in PvP is marginally different. Their role in game modes is almost the same. And thus the player base will always flock to build that outperforms the other, even if advantage is by slight margin.
    If you look at Core, Dragonhunter and Firebrand its obvious that Firebrand is the only outlier, while Core and DH are almost the same thing with just a slight variations.

    ArenaNet's philosophy of shifting modifiers cant change that. And in all honesty, looking at chronomancer changes, I don't think that touching core class mechanics would make these two viable at the same time. Plus, they obviously aren't themselves sure what they even want with Longbow.

    Don't get me wrong, I am all for that both Core and DH are viable in multiple game modes, but I just don't see how would it be possible that they are both viable in the same game mode at the same time. But I am completely open to have my mind changed about this issue as I would absolutely love to see more diversity and more builds across all profs and game modes

    I agree with both you and @otto.5684 , but here is the thing: if we narrow the gap (or remove it entirely) between the DPS of Core and DH, then at least there is a choice. You can argue that some/many/all will make choice "a", but even if that were true, there at least would be a choice. Right now the only choice that exists is to do less/way less damage than DH. I wouldn't even raise this issue tbh if it were not ANET recently admitting they want the same thing: to make choosing between core or elites a viable choice, and not one that is automatically decided for you based solely on math.

    Your point about FB being the outlier is valid, but not quite relevant to the argument as we are talking about a condi build vs. power, and a condi build can be selected for purposes other than raw golem damage. In any case FB is currently the strongest support elite in the entire game across all 3 game modes, so I don't think we can generate any momentum about it needing help in the DPS department.

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