Is it hard to get into raiding?(social experiment)

[The one to Rule.2593]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@The one to Rule.2593 said:how most of us got started was just getting a few friends together and throwing ourselves at the bosses sometimes for weeks until we learned. eventually things just start to click. Things go much smoother when you take the initiative, make your own group and learn together.It's

exactly

because we did it that way that it took us 3 months.Of course, if you can find yourself 9 veterans willing to help you out, it can be done way, way faster. But it just shifts the difficulty from ingame to social.

We all had to slog through a learning phase, there's no getting around that if you want to eventually be competent at the bosses instead of just doing dps and putting mechanics on other people. That will work for a time, but eventually it's best to learn yourself.When I first started and killed vale guardian for the first time after a few weeks of trying to get it right, gorseval was a giant wall for me because i didn't know how to do a proper rotation, nothing else in the game at that point really forced me to push myself to get better.

Raids are supposed to make people push themselves and grow as players. It's not about getting carried, it's about not needing to be.

Yes there are mechanics that will take some time to nail down, and as pointed out above, there are various training discords and guilds all you have to do is look. But it comes down to how you like to spend your time. If you want to improve yourself, you'll do it, if not, then raids just maybe aren't for you.

[skarpak.8594]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"The one to Rule.2593" said:how most of us got started was just getting a few friends together and throwing ourselves at the bosses sometimes for weeks until we learned. eventually things just start to click. Things go much smoother when you take the initiative, make your own group and learn together.It's

exactly

because we did it that way that it took us 3 months.Of course, if you can find yourself 9 veterans willing to help you out, it can be done way, way faster. But it just shifts the difficulty from ingame to social.

it already depends with which mentality you go on this. i cleared vg & gorseval within the first week after raid wing 1 release and fullclear + title in the next week. with a bunch of pugs and we just formed a static since everyone was somewhat "good". the thing is, no one there was a "snowflake" and changed builds on notice.

we had a guardian tank, 3 condi players with sinister gear and the rest was just running berserkers apart from two magis druids. chrono? we didn't even know what a chrono was. but we had 2 might stacking warriors, so this was basically covered.

many of those came from wvw with 0 pve knowledge, but they already had the mentality to change gear/build on notice from wvw. since i was always rather in dungeons, it was for me the norm to play with best dps gear and not some random stuff just because.

in the end we just discussed a bit the strategy, who kicks seekers away and who goes greens. done. killtime with 1 min left or so after 2 days of trying (~5h in the evening) for vg. gorseval was a bit harder to meet the dps check, but we made it anyway at some point. sabetha was rather like vg, highly mechanical, so we got that also down kinda quick.

i really do not know what new people these days do. they have all the guides and knowledge and still need that long in a completly new group? even golem is there now, we did not have that back in time. not even dps meter (they existed, but mostly not used).

[Fenom.9457]

I’ve had mixed experiences, totaling out to a negative feeling surrounding trying to get into raids. But I want legendary armor with uniquely legendary skins so badly that every few months I try again (pls anet generalized PvE armor set. Or fractals). I’ve had nice groups that have nothing to say to me and we just do the boss, usually successful after a few tries (I’ve killed 13 bosses in all this time). And I’ve had fun on release days failing at first encounters. I find release days are most of my best experiences because it’s easier to find the nice people who aren’t judging or instantly kicking me. But I’ve had many bad times where I get instantly kicked - sometimes they refuse to even give a reason and sometimes they say I’m not good enough. Which would be fine if I sucked and had joined an experienced quick run, but since I’m not incredibly experienced I don’t do that. They’re kicking me out of casual runs for not being a veteran. How do I learn if nobody gives me a chance, I feel? And then there’s the groups where I don’t get kicked right away but somebody is nonstop telling me to get better and telling me exactly what to do - for reference, when I join a raid, I’ve already equipped the optimal build and know the mechanics of the boss I’m fighting. It’s about time I try again. I’ll probably find nice people and get a kill or two, then have a few hours of rude people, then get turned away for a few months

[Eramonster.2718]

@"Fenom.9457" said:

I’ve had mixed experiences, totaling out to a negative feeling surrounding trying to get into raids. But I want legendary armor with uniquely legendary skins so badly that every few months I try again (pls anet generalized PvE armor set. Or fractals). I’ve had nice groups that have nothing to say to me and we just do the boss, usually successful after a few tries (I’ve killed 13 bosses in all this time). And I’ve had fun on release days failing at first encounters. I find release days are most of my best experiences because it’s easier to find the nice people who aren’t judging or instantly kicking me. But I’ve had many bad times where I get instantly kicked - sometimes they refuse to even give a reason and sometimes they say I’m not good enough. Which would be fine if I sucked and had joined an experienced quick run, but since I’m not incredibly experienced I don’t do that. They’re kicking me out of casual runs for not being a veteran. How do I learn if nobody gives me a chance, I feel? And then there’s the groups where I don’t get kicked right away but somebody is nonstop telling me to get better and telling me exactly what to do - for reference, when I join a raid, I’ve already equipped the optimal build and know the mechanics of the boss I’m fighting. It’s about time I try again. I’ll probably find nice people and get a kill or two, then have a few hours of rude people, then get turned away for a few months

Join a discord "training" guild (practically a LFG platform) or ask those 'nice' people you raided with if they are recruiting/schedule for raids or have you to fill the spot if they need people (win-win for both sides).

[sokeenoppa.5384]

@Fenom.9457 said:I’ve had mixed experiences, totaling out to a negative feeling surrounding trying to get into raids. But I want legendary armor with uniquely legendary skins so badly that every few months I try again (pls anet generalized PvE armor set. Or fractals). I’ve had nice groups that have nothing to say to me and we just do the boss, usually successful after a few tries (I’ve killed 13 bosses in all this time). And I’ve had fun on release days failing at first encounters. I find release days are most of my best experiences because it’s easier to find the nice people who aren’t judging or instantly kicking me. But I’ve had many bad times where I get instantly kicked - sometimes they refuse to even give a reason and sometimes they say I’m not good enough. Which would be fine if I sucked and had joined an experienced quick run, but since I’m not incredibly experienced I don’t do that. They’re kicking me out of casual runs for not being a veteran. How do I learn if nobody gives me a chance, I feel? And then there’s the groups where I don’t get kicked right away but somebody is nonstop telling me to get better and telling me exactly what to do - for reference, when I join a raid, I’ve already equipped the optimal build and know the mechanics of the boss I’m fighting. It’s about time I try again. I’ll probably find nice people and get a kill or two, then have a few hours of rude people, then get turned away for a few months

If you are EU, our guild has room for you to get your Raid kills. :)

[The one to Rule.2593]

@Fenom.9457 said:I’ve had mixed experiences, totaling out to a negative feeling surrounding trying to get into raids. But I want legendary armor with uniquely legendary skins so badly that every few months I try again (pls anet generalized PvE armor set. Or fractals). I’ve had nice groups that have nothing to say to me and we just do the boss, usually successful after a few tries (I’ve killed 13 bosses in all this time). And I’ve had fun on release days failing at first encounters. I find release days are most of my best experiences because it’s easier to find the nice people who aren’t judging or instantly kicking me. But I’ve had many bad times where I get instantly kicked - sometimes they refuse to even give a reason and sometimes they say I’m not good enough. Which would be fine if I sucked and had joined an experienced quick run, but since I’m not incredibly experienced I don’t do that. They’re kicking me out of casual runs for not being a veteran. How do I learn if nobody gives me a chance, I feel? And then there’s the groups where I don’t get kicked right away but somebody is nonstop telling me to get better and telling me exactly what to do - for reference, when I join a raid, I’ve already equipped the optimal build and know the mechanics of the boss I’m fighting. It’s about time I try again. I’ll probably find nice people and get a kill or two, then have a few hours of rude people, then get turned away for a few months

I mean this usually comes when people don't know the ins and outs of their class as well as they think they do. You can be a druid and just heal and you'll still be doing a bad job because you also have to focus on keeping up the groups might stacks.

You can be a dps but if you don't know when to use your skills or why you use them then chances are you'll be low dps. For instance when I was learning reaper i didn't know that you are supposed to use your ticking damage skills like GS4 and 5 and well of suffering Before going into shroud. since when you're in shroud you proc the soul barbs trait and do 10% more damage. this applies to those abilities above as well.

If you are a chrono but have bad boon uptime it affects the entire team and is a drag on the team.

I can go on, but I think you get the point. It's important to know the ins and outs of your class before going into a raid.

[Antycypator.9874]

@"Raizel.8175" said:I don't really think that doing VG once is the same as "getting into raiding". VG is one of the easiest and especially most intuitive raid-bosses due to the little pre-event where you already learn the mechanics of the encounter.

I don't think VG is one of the easiest bosses. VG has many mechanics (teleports, greens, seekers, split - one of the lesser guardians is vulnerable only to condi, there are orbs damaging players, floor is also deathly). These things cannot be ignored (exept greens, but it's easy to fail). More things to care = higher chance to fail.For comparison Samarog has only 4 different mechanics: CC every 10%, 2 encounters with lesser bosses, greens and players have to avoid waves. It is not too much. Failing mechanics at Samarog isn't that punishing.

[Raizel.8175]

@Antycypator.9874 said:

@"Raizel.8175" said:I don't really think that doing VG once is the same as "getting into raiding". VG is one of the easiest and especially most intuitive raid-bosses due to the little pre-event where you already learn the mechanics of the encounter.

I don't think VG is one of the easiest bosses. VG has many mechanics (teleports, greens, seekers, split - one of the lesser guardians is vulnerable only to condi, there are orbs damaging players, floor is also deathly). These things cannot be ignored (exept greens, but it's easy to fail). More things to care = higher chance to fail.For comparison Samarog has only 4 different mechanics: CC every 10%, 2 encounters with lesser bosses, greens and players have to avoid waves. It is not too much. Failing mechanics at Samarog isn't that punishing.

I disagree. You already learn VGs mechanics in small doses during the pre-event whereas at Samarog, you can still kitten up if you don't know how the few mechanics he has work.

[The one to Rule.2593]

@Raizel.8175 said:

@Antycypator.9874 said:

@Raizel.8175 said:I don't really think that doing VG once is the same as "getting into raiding". VG is one of the easiest and especially most intuitive raid-bosses due to the little pre-event where you already learn the mechanics of the encounter.

I don't think VG is one of the easiest bosses. VG has many mechanics (teleports, greens, seekers, split - one of the lesser guardians is vulnerable only to condi, there are orbs damaging players, floor is also deathly). These things cannot be ignored (exept greens, but it's easy to fail). More things to care = higher chance to fail.For comparison Samarog has only 4 different mechanics: CC every 10%, 2 encounters with lesser bosses, greens and players have to avoid waves. It is not too much. Failing mechanics at Samarog isn't that punishing.

I disagree. You already learn VGs mechanics in small doses during the pre-event whereas at Samarog, you can still kitten up if you don't know how the few mechanics he has work.

honestly VG is a good example of what people can expect getting into it for the first time though. escourt and wing 4 for trainings are too easy and too unrealistic

[Nekromalistik.7045]

Well, I personally started with a training guild, I also spent time practicing my rotations and learning the mechanics of all bosses in youtube, We managed to kill the bosses ofg the w1 but the progress was very slow, I finally decided to make raids on my own, my performance was good and little by little I was leaving the nest to go climbing, when I entered a squad I whispered to the commander "I don't have kp, I know the mechanics, give me a chance if i fuck it, kick me", some expelled me instantly, others let me stay...and now after 10 months of starting to raiding I have all CM's except dhuum (I am running with a squad that currently reaches 25%) meanwhile other members of my old training guild can't even make a clear of the first w4... I have learned that the raids are not difficult, the difficulty increases or not according to people, it requires discipline and dedication so that you are a weight in favor for the squad.

In conclusion, the difficulty of getting into the world of raids resides in you and your desire to learn

[maxwelgm.4315]

How fast would you find a W6 or even W5 run if you could only ping 30LI and W4 KPs for example? "Getting into raids" is very, very ambiguous and our personal social experiences cannot really be labeled as experiments (not that they are not valid either mind you - but they're only anecdotes). It's already profoundly different of an experience if you go from EU to NA, if you can or can't talk on discord, if you can slot specific times to play weekly or not, and so on.

All in all it's not hard to get kills on individual bosses when you get to know how the social part of it works. You could even potentially get an easy build with little individual mechanics for most fights such as BS/Healscourge and score with some exp groups even with none or very little experience, just talking your way into it. But I guess from the answers in here we are assuming that "getting into raids" is less broad than this and actually means completing weekly clears and generally being able to find fit into all kinds of groups, and that is immensely harder than what you can get from solely going into LFG (to begin with you probably won't go as far and as fast without a guild, let alone without at least some discord groups).

[zealex.9410]

@Astralporing.1957 said:Meanwhile it took me 3 months of constant tries every week, several days a week, several hours a day, to get that first kill.Basically, anecdotal experience is just that - it tells you nothing about what the average situation is.

Context is everything. Are we speaking about the last 3 months or back when raids were relatively new content?

[sokeenoppa.5384]

@"maxwelgm.4315" said:How fast would you find a W6 or even W5 run if you could only ping 30LI and W4 KPs for example? "Getting into raids" is very, very ambiguous and our personal social experiences cannot really be labeled as experiments (not that they are not valid either mind you - but they're only anecdotes). It's already profoundly different of an experience if you go from EU to NA, if you can or can't talk on discord, if you can slot specific times to play weekly or not, and so on.

All in all it's not hard to get kills on individual bosses when you get to know how the social part of it works. You could even potentially get an easy build with little individual mechanics for most fights such as BS/Healscourge and score with some exp groups even with none or very little experience, just talking your way into it. But I guess from the answers in here we are assuming that "getting into raids" is less broad than this and actually means completing weekly clears and generally being able to find fit into all kinds of groups, and that is immensely harder than what you can get from solely going into LFG (to begin with you probably won't go as far and as fast without a guild, let alone without at least some discord groups).

To answer your question, you would find that really fast If you create your own Squad.

[Astralporing.1957]

@zealex.9410 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:Meanwhile it took me 3 months of constant tries every week, several days a week, several hours a day, to get that first kill.Basically, anecdotal experience is just that - it tells you nothing about what the average situation is.

Context is everything. Are we speaking about the last 3 months or back when raids were relatively new content?When we started, wing 4 was already in, but i think wing 5 wasn't yet.

[sokeenoppa.5384]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:Meanwhile it took me 3 months of constant tries every week, several days a week, several hours a day, to get that first kill.Basically, anecdotal experience is just that - it tells you nothing about what the average situation is.

Context is everything. Are we speaking about the last 3 months or back when raids were relatively new content?When we started, wing 4 was already in, but i think wing 5 wasn't yet.

Why it took you that long? Did u use proper squad composition? Like im leading training raids where im the only exp player and other 9 might have never raided before, it usually takes 10-30min for Squad like that to kill VG.

[Astralporing.1957]

@sokeenoppa.5384 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:Meanwhile it took me 3 months of constant tries every week, several days a week, several hours a day, to get that first kill.Basically, anecdotal experience is just that - it tells you nothing about what the average situation is.

Context is everything. Are we speaking about the last 3 months or back when raids were relatively new content?When we started, wing 4 was already in, but i think wing 5 wasn't yet.

Why it took you that long? Did u use proper squad composition? Like im leading training raids where im the only exp player and other 9 might have never raided before, it usually takes 10-30min for Squad like that to kill VG.There was

no

exp player. All 10 players were new to any demanding group content. Of course, that also meant that noone has played a chrono or heal before, so those people had to learn this on the way. Noone has started at hardcore skill level either - all were semicasual, that up to that point were doing t4s, but only in mostly casual way. It was also the first time most of the players heard about things like group composition (or "build" and "rotation"). For example, when we started, we considered being able to do 10k dps on boss to be a mark of a really good skill. That of course means that everyone started with a class and/or build they were unfamilial with. That's the phase of learning that raiders completely ignore when making any "experiments", because it is assumed that the "new" player that wants to learn has already mastered all that and only needs to learn the fights. So, basically, that they aren't really new.

For us, first 3 hours weren't enough for most players to even start seeing teleport circles. I started seeing them around third day or so, and it took me even more to be able to see them consistently. Greens were a great party wiper as well (remember, that was before overheal strat, and distorting them was a bad idea with fresh chronos).

If you add to that the fact that trying over and over again and failing over and over again is a really mindcrushing experience, it's not really surprising that the group didn't remain consistent throughout all that, and kept shedding players, having to get new ones (and train them up again). Of the original group i think only 4 people remained till the end (and of the remaining slots, some changed several times over).

All the other training attempts i participated went way easier, because in those we always made sure that at least half of the squad had to have prior experience, and all key roles were covered - new people always started as dps, preferebly with no special roles assigned. That saying, while there were people that learned really fast, there were also those that simply couldn't do it no matter how hard they tried. That is also something that any "experiments" ignore, because those experiments are being done by people that obviously could do it.