Joined forum to emphasize frustration against Mesmer

[Tayga.3192]

@"Squirrel.2370" said:I was confused with your reply but apparently it's just a formatting mistake.

LOL, I see you jumping around to every anti-mesmer(mirage) post and attempting to defend them. It's time to acknowledge how busted your class is and drop your bias.It's exactly the reverse: There are too many anti-mirage posts. I just know the class well enough to talk about it, you won't see me typing in guardian subforum.

Comparing their survivability to elementalist just reeks of desperation. Like seriously? Can you not see how biased your reasoning is to even make this assertion? Go play some ele or tempest and then tell me how many times you were downed compared to playing mirage. None of your theory-crafting is really based in reality.1) I didn't "exactly" compare them, it's more like this: "saying everything a class can do" is not a valid way to argue and you just demonstrated it is not. A lot of classes can do a lot of things, listing them is just bias.2) I mostly play mesmer (not only mirage), thief and holo. I will obviously die to everything if I played elementalist.3) Actually, a bunker weaver has way more sustain than a bunker mirage. However, that's very off-topic.

And... I know this seems like I'm attacking you but I'm really not.It's not really up to you or me to decide if that's the case.

You main Mirage and you love it, sure. It seems you have good technical knowledge of the classes, but your feedback has just not been helpful or constructive. Just objectively it seems very clear Mirage is a tier above everything else.In my opinion, "objectively" and "it seems" doesn't really go together.

If you have anti-Mirage tips, then please share, but saying "l2p" and other git-gud comments isn't convincing anyone.Sure.1) Learn your matchup against them: If you are a thief or core guard, you can most certainly go after a mesmer. If you are a scourge try to lure them into teamfighting, otherwise you need to outplay by a great deal.2) Learn how to find the real mesmer: It's really easy after dueling a few good mirages in custom arenas. If it strafes or uses anything other than aa, it's the real one.3) If you have any "hit to get effect" skill (corona burst, full counter etc), you can hit clones to get the bonus.That's all I can quickly gather here. Hope you beat 'em all up :)

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

@Sampson.2403 said:Lol @ the people saying "mirage isn't broken, its a l2p issue".

Okay fine. You're right, in order to beat mirage you need to learn how to beat it. But that argument is like saying mt everest isn't hard to climb, you just need to learn how do it.

Mirage is broken by design 4 sureeee. So your guys solution is that everyone needs to become pro at this game because beating a mirage is like fighting diablo on the highest difficulty setting. L2p and git gud amirite.

The biggest issue most people have is, how little effort mirage has to put out in order to successfully beat someone 1v1, compared to the effort their enemy has to put in to beat said mirage.

It's a very forgiving spec, and extremely powerful in relation.

[Squirrel.2370]

@Tayga.3192 said:

@"Squirrel.2370" said:I was confused with your reply but apparently it's just a formatting mistake.

LOL, I see you jumping around to every anti-mesmer(mirage) post and attempting to defend them. It's time to acknowledge how busted your class is and drop your bias.It's exactly the reverse: There are too many anti-mirage posts. I just know the class well enough to talk about it, you won't see me typing in guardian subforum.

Comparing their survivability to elementalist just reeks of desperation. Like seriously? Can you not see how biased your reasoning is to even make this assertion? Go play some ele or tempest and then tell me how many times you were downed compared to playing mirage. None of your theory-crafting is really based in reality.1) I didn't "exactly" compare them, it's more like this: "saying everything a class can do" is not a valid way to argue and you just demonstrated it is not. A lot of classes can do a lot of things, listing them is just bias.2) I mostly play mesmer (not only mirage), thief and holo. I will obviously die to everything if I played elementalist.3) Actually, a bunker weaver has way more sustain than a bunker mirage. However, that's very off-topic.

And... I know this seems like I'm attacking you but I'm really not.It's not really up to you or me to decide if that's the case.

You main Mirage and you love it, sure. It seems you have good technical knowledge of the classes, but your feedback has just not been helpful or constructive. Just objectively it seems very clear Mirage is a tier above everything else.In my opinion, "objectively" and "it seems" doesn't really go together.

If you have anti-Mirage tips, then please share, but saying "l2p" and other git-gud comments isn't convincing anyone.Sure.1) Learn your matchup against them: If you are a thief or core guard, you can most certainly go after a mesmer. If you are a scourge try to lure them into teamfighting, otherwise you need to outplay by a great deal.2) Learn how to find the real mesmer: It's really easy after dueling a few good mirages in custom arenas. If it strafes or uses anything other than aa, it's the real one.3) If you have any "hit to get effect" skill (corona burst, full counter etc), you can hit clones to get the bonus.That's all I can quickly gather here. Hope you beat 'em all up :)

Thank you

[DeadlySynz.3471]

@"Tayga.3192" said:If you can't beat them, join them.

Many people have given a million tips for fighting mesmers. I can't say anything but "It's a L2P issue".

Mesmer needs to be counterable by another class or build; it's not. Nothing counters it. Yes people can learn to play against them, but learning to play against them is one thing, having a direct counter in which the mesmer knows they will lose is another.

For example, a Ranger (provided they are primarily using LB) counters any necro, simply because, the necro is too damn slow to close in, especially if the ranger persists on kiting. It's a complete mismatch (probably the worst in the game). Another example is a scourge counters a warrior (hence why we see so many warrior players complain on the forums about nerfing scourges). Scourge easily tanks the damage, corrupts anything the warrior throws on it, and dishes out conditions faster than they can clear. End result, a dead warrior that basically all a scourge has to do is stand there and press buttons.

There is nothing a mesmer will face off against that even remotely counters it, that's the problem. There is really nothing 1 class or build can be given that would directly counter a mesmer without drastically countering other classes; the problem, Mesmer does too much. In order to directly counter a mesmer, there needs to be a build out there on one of the classes that hard counters stealth, clones, conditions, has high mobility, lots of access to stealth themselves, high up time to blocks, with the ability to insta-down someone.

So basically we'd need a new class that converges the abilities of a guardian, necro, thief, and Rev to directly counter a mesmer. Or on the flip side, the mesmer gets gutted down to a respectable level.

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

@DeadlySynz.3471 said:

@"Tayga.3192" said:If you can't beat them, join them.

Many people have given a million tips for fighting mesmers. I can't say anything but "It's a L2P issue".

There is

nothing

a mesmer will face off against that even remotely counters it, that's the problem. There is really nothing 1 class or build can be given that would directly counter a mesmer without drastically countering other classes; the problem, Mesmer does too much. In order to directly counter a mesmer, there needs to be a build out there on one of the classes that hard counters stealth, clones, conditions, has high mobility, lots of access to stealth themselves, high up time to blocks, with the ability to insta-down someone.

So basically we'd need a new class that converges the abilities of a guardian, necro, thief, and Rev to directly counter a mesmer. Or on the flip side, the mesmer gets gutted down to a respectable level.

I would like to intervene these statements

As a DPS mirage (non 1 shot) I can say that there are classes/builds that can beat both condi and DPS mirages. I myself have beaten other mirages (both DPS and condi). I have been beaten by smart scourges (timeing condi bombs), LB/Sw= Wh Druid/SB's, sword/staff rev's and Daredevils. Ive seen condi mirages beat by scourges (facetank condis and spit em back builds), Deadeyes, symbol guards (even rough fight for DPS mirages as well). Its a matter of timing. When I fight, I can tell who knows how to beat me and who can't. Its about timing.

For condi Mirages, its 50/50 (l2p and overperforming). I have little to no condi clears so any condi build should be able to wipe me if the opponent has any skill instead of those "noob killer" condi builds. I could never go back to condi mirage in PvP or WvW. Now I enjoy fighting them as if you can learn to beat them (the supposed "OP class"), then they rarely pose a real problem.

[Sampson.2403]

I dunno i think there is counterplay to ci mirage its just hard as hell. The counter relies on you baiting their interrupt mantra and them blowing their dodges with offensive ambushes.

But if someones really good at the game, not really sure how they could lose playing as CI mirage to any other build.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@"Squirrel.2370" said:Just did yet another 5v5 where the Mesmer completely carried the enemy team. It wasn't even close. I know anecdotal occurrences aren't stats, but this happens ALMOST EVERY GAME. WHAT IS WRONG with this character design? I'm so unhappy with how overpowered Mesmer is right now I'm actually considering quitting pvp all-together.After losing or winning a few in a row, both teams getting carried by Mesmers (and some holo's), I queued into a game where enemy had a mesmer and we didn't. We lost that game 80-500. One time the mesmer 1v3'd our team for a good 20 seconds of combat... somehow remaining almost untouched by our constant abilities, and then downed all of us.I'm super upset about this. There is no shadow of a doubt in my mind that Mesmer is busted op and needs some drastic changes. Again. Whatever it takes to bring this class down to mortal again.

It's another one of those builds, like DPS Soulbeast builds, that feels ridiculously OP at mid to lower tiers of play due to mechanical l2p issues. At higher tiers of play, where people know how to deal with it, the CI Mirage really isn't that bad. It's actually easy to focus and kill, unlike some of Mirage's previous build structures, which were $%^&ing neigh invulnerable. You can actually HIT a CI Mirage.

Now I'm not saying "it's balanced" or "it shouldn't be nerfed" but it shouldn't be targeted for neutering like some of the other specializations have recently received. It really isn't that strong, when you learn what its weaknesses are and how to play around it:

1. Stop trying to 1v1 and side node against the CI Mirage if you know you're running something that is bad against a CI Mirage. Stop doing it. Let other team mates engage it, who have builds that can actually deal with it. This works like this with every other class and every other rock/paper/scissors situation.
2. It's much weaker in team fights than other builds. When 2 players pressure it, it is forced to burn through it's endurance bars defensively, instead of using them for coordinated ambush damage offensively. Unlike a Reaper or Holosmith, which still deals huge cleave damage to 2x aggressors, the Mirage's damage output drops out when pushed by 2 players. This build is terrible at 1vX. It almost certainly dies quickly if you pursue it with 2 players, much more quickly than other classes. So as soon as a CI Mirage shows up, you should be calling target on its head for your team to focus it. This is no different than calling target on some guy who is 1500 range off node freecasting as some ranged damage berserker build. As a general rule of thumb for mid tier and even most high tier games, the CI Mirage will almost always be your primary target because he is the easiest to kill when focused and the most dangerous if ignored.
3. It's weak to CC and Condi. It has 1x stun break with Blink, a 3x clear with Arcane Thievery, and 2x single clears with Jaunt.You pressure it with CC & Condi, and it dies easily. Stay with your Scourge in team fights, hang next to your Condi Thieves & teamed CI Mirages, and make sure they know to target the CI Mirage.

^ If your entire team were to pay attention to their mini map & personal positioning, and were to do all 3 of these things, they would leave the CI Mirages little opening to perform their job role, which is picking off goofs who get caught in the wrong place or over extend.

Now in WvW, that's an entirely different matter.. You have things like Trailblazer stats, PvE version Adventurer 50%, PvE versoin Energy 50%, 40% Endurance Regen Foods, Sigils with no CD that rip 3 boons on every interrupt, ect.. ect.. options that are just ridiculously BROKEN as hell for a CI Mirage. Luckily, this isn't an issue in spvp.

[otto.5684]

This reminds me of a game I played recently. At home, 2-3 allies were fighting the CI mirage constantly. I came and downed the mirage. On a second occasion, in the same game, I faced off against the mirage solo and won. There are many builds capable of defeating mirage solo, assuming you are at least 1500 in skill rating. If your team lost 500-80, most definitely mirage was not the issue. For example, I play sag FB, against gold skill enemies and below, I can obliterate games way beyond any mirage can. I can literally wipe the entire mid, as long as I have 1-2 allies acting as decoys to soak damage.

@Trevor Boyer.6524 post is good summary of CI mirage weakness. Just do not engage a competent mirage solo if you are playing spell breaker or herald.

[Tiipi.6750]

@DeadlySynz.3471 said:

@"Tayga.3192" said:If you can't beat them, join them.

Many people have given a million tips for fighting mesmers. I can't say anything but "It's a L2P issue".

Mesmer needs to be counterable by another class or build; it's not. Nothing counters it. Yes people can learn to play against them, but learning to play against them is one thing, having a direct counter in which the mesmer knows they will lose is another.

For example, a Ranger (provided they are primarily using LB) counters any necro, simply because, the necro is too kitten slow to close in, especially if the ranger persists on kiting. It's a complete mismatch (probably the worst in the game). Another example is a scourge counters a warrior (hence why we see so many warrior players complain on the forums about nerfing scourges). Scourge easily tanks the damage, corrupts anything the warrior throws on it, and dishes out conditions faster than they can clear. End result, a dead warrior that basically all a scourge has to do is stand there and press buttons.

There is

nothing

a mesmer will face off against that even remotely counters it, that's the problem. There is really nothing 1 class or build can be given that would directly counter a mesmer without drastically countering other classes; the problem, Mesmer does too much. In order to directly counter a mesmer, there needs to be a build out there on one of the classes that hard counters stealth, clones, conditions, has high mobility, lots of access to stealth themselves, high up time to blocks, with the ability to insta-down someone.

So basically we'd need a new class that converges the abilities of a guardian, necro, thief, and Rev to directly counter a mesmer. Or on the flip side, the mesmer gets gutted down to a respectable level.

You have obviously never played mirage to say that.

[Genesis.7864]

Anet nerfed Chrono to hell where it's useless in PvP and WvW.So why not nerf and break Mirage to be another handicap class?Remove that trait Elusive Mind (Dodging breaks stun and removes conditions. If you break a stun in this manner, you will be left exhausted.) And make it baseline for all Mirages. But instead of stunbreaking, make it occur after every dodge. Ha, yeah, that'll show those Mirages!Also put a 60 second CD on Chaotic Interruption and remove its ability to Immobilize!Oh, they also have basic mesmer shatters unlike Chrono? Must be nice! Would be a shame if something were to happen to them! Let's also remove IP along with those shatters and prevent Mirage from spawning more than 1 clone.Oh and while we're on the process of neutering, why not just go ahead and remove Infinite Horizons and replace staff ambush skill with a melee attack that does 1 damage and turns the Mirage into a Troll Face.Yep, after all this: Mirage sure sounds like it's on par with Chrono! Great job team!

[NICENIKESHOE.7128]

Mesmer's damage excels at 1v1 but drop significantly in teamfights due to most damage tied to destructible sources.This is objectively a mechanical boon/flaw and hence why you almost always see mesmer as sidenoder only.If your team lost to mesmer 1v3 there is really no excuse for their failure, they'll die to one good player on most classes.

[Genesis.7864]

Losing 1v3 clearly means those 3 people don't know how to play their profession.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Genesis.7864 said:Anet nerfed Chrono to hell where it's useless in PvP and WvW.So why not nerf and break Mirage to be another handicap class?Remove that trait Elusive Mind (Dodging breaks stun and removes conditions. If you break a stun in this manner, you will be left exhausted.) And make it baseline for all Mirages. But instead of stunbreaking, make it occur after every dodge. Ha, yeah, that'll show those Mirages!Also put a 60 second CD on Chaotic Interruption and remove its ability to Immobilize!Oh, they also have basic mesmer shatters unlike Chrono? Must be nice! Would be a shame if something were to happen to them! Let's also remove IP along with those shatters and prevent Mirage from spawning more than 1 clone.Oh and while we're on the process of neutering, why not just go ahead and remove Infinite Horizons and replace staff ambush skill with a melee attack that does 1 damage and turns the Mirage into a Troll Face.Yep, after all this: Mirage sure sounds like it's on par with Chrono! Great job team!

still can run with ambush sword, unacceptable.

[Aza.2105]

The only problem I have with mesmer is the excessive screen clutter. I really really wish Anet reduced the max number of clones/phantasms mesmer can have to 3 and just condense their power so they don't lose anything. Then they would be fine. The mesmer rework was the worst thing Anet has ever done and they just did not give a crap about the screen clutter issues it caused.

[Genesis.7864]

@"Aza.2105" said:The only problem I have with mesmer is the excessive screen clutter. I really really wish Anet reduced the max number of clones/phantasms mesmer can have to 3 and just condense their power so they don't lose anything. Then they would be fine. The mesmer rework was the worst thing Anet has ever done and they just did not give a kitten about the screen clutter issues it caused.

I agree. They wanted to make it more "active" playstyle. They got that but also got a lot of OP mechanics as a result.

[bravan.3876]

Merge this pls No. 3

[Skyronight.6370]

@bravan.3876 said:Merge this pls No. 3

mirage wont escape nerfs by asking mods to merge threads

[bravan.3876]

@Skyronight.6370 said:

@bravan.3876 said:Merge this pls No. 3

mirage wont escape nerfs by asking mods to merge threads

I have no problem at all with nerfing condi Mirage (CI, clone autoattacks and ambush attacks) but we don't need 30 different thread with the same arguments over and over. Also i get triggered by bronze propaganda no matter what class.

[Mesis.2951]

As a recently returning player to GW2 who used to play healing Scrapper (RIP) in PoE, now Holo I find fighting a good Mirage an absolute cancer. Currently in high gold, difference between some Mirage players that I can effortlesy 1v1 and skilled Mirage players that we lose in 2v1 and sometimes amost even in 3v1 is just demoralizing.