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Do elite spec tradeoffs mean rendering the elite mechanic useless?


Vagrant.7206

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Recently, as I'm sure many of you are aware, Scrapper was given its second rework. Compared to other elite specs, the scrapper elite mechanic has always been lackluster (really only useful in competitive game modes under very specific circumstances), so it seemed fitting that it was a freebie until recently. The newest balance patch included significant changes to the way the Function gyro behaved -- it now occupies the F5 slot, the elite toolbelt skill, whereas before it was a free addition. It also can spawn more function gyros.

The problem? For one, it's now objectively worse than it was before:

  • As was pointed out in this thread, the new function gyro has less than 1000 health. It is killable with a single attack, even from a downed enemy.
  • The 180 radius on the new function gyro skill is tiny. Additional f-gyro spawns are incredibly unlikely given that it would require several bodies to pile up in a very close proximity. The lightning field is so small, that it adds very little to scrapper's arsenal.
  • The cooldown on f-gyro was increased significantly compared to where it was before. This cooldown increases even further upon additional f-gyro spawns.

In other words, for the sake of adding "tradeoffs," ArenaNet has functionally made the entire elite mechanic useless. Even more useless than it was before. In fact, it's worse than useless. It's downright harmful. As an engineer main, I would actually prefer to get rid of the function gyro altogether just so I could just have the elite toolbelt skill back. I can't even call scrapper a sidegrade to core engineer -- it's a downgrade.

Is this your plan for other elite specs ArenaNet? Or is engineer just your testing grounds? Because it sure does feel like you're whipping a dead horse for no particular reason.

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What other class to test new stuff with than Engi? Isn't that the whole theme of a class? ;)But I have to agree, if Anet is rethinking elite specs they should just start reworking all of them instead trying to adjust the current ones to fit the new mold.

I will also later today update my Engi thread

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They could have put Function Gyro on an ammo system each with a minute cooldown.

This will instantly make Medic Scrapper a very good safety net team addition to training raids.

People however are more miffed at the total removal of Elite Toolbelt, which had certain pretty powerful skills in the arsenal.

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I say good job a-net. Sorry but i was quite often on the receiving end of scrapper as a necro and let's make some things clear:

  1. old gyro + scrapper = guaranteed stomp. There was no defense.
  2. F5 moa was disgusting. I pop lich or other transform, it gets shut down by toolbelt skill...
  3. being able to ress/stomp without putting your neck on the line or burning a crucial skill is a big deal

Maybe some fine tuning is needed here and there, but i say good riddance to f-gyro and F5 moa on scrappers.

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@"ZeftheWicked.3076" said:I say good job a-net. Sorry but i was quite often on the receiving end of scrapper as a necro and let's make some things clear:

  1. old gyro + scrapper = guaranteed stomp. There was no defense.
  2. F5 moa was disgusting. I pop lich or other transform, it gets shut down by toolbelt skill...
  3. being able to ress/stomp without putting your neck on the line or burning a crucial skill is a big deal

Maybe some fine tuning is needed here and there, but i say good riddance to f-gyro and F5 moa on scrappers.

Saying "good riddance" to the f-gyro is equivalent to saying good riddance to sand shades on scourge, or reaper shroud on reaper. It's supposed to be the defining aspect of the elite spec. Your "points" essentially amount to complaining about the fact that scrapper was allowed to even have a unique mechanic.

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@ZeftheWicked.3076 said:New shroud/shades replace old one.F-Gyro did not make toolbelt dissapear.

It was not a replacement but an add-on. Making it take up elite slot is an actual trade-off and some justice to core engi.

Except the new shroud/shades add some MASSIVE bonuses to core necro. F-gyro has always had extremely limited utility. Why does the f-gyro require a more significant tradeoff for what is actually worse than the core skill?

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@ZeftheWicked.3076 said:New shroud/shades replace old one.F-Gyro did not make toolbelt dissapear.

It was not a replacement but an add-on. Making it take up elite slot is an actual trade-off and some justice to core engi.

Hold up, did you just claim losing a skill is an addon? W u t... w/o taking kits into account, scrapper went from 15 skill slots + gyro to 14+ gyro. Holo has 5 wep skills, 5 utilities, 4 toolbelts AND forge. Thats 19 skills. Holosmith is an addon, function gyro update was a flat out nerf. Lets not try to beat around the bush. If Fgyro was actually more USEFUL than before you could call it an addon,

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People need to understand that the intended target trade off was meant to target balancing between Scrapper and Holo.

Holo gave up their Elite toolbelt, Scrapper didn't.

Problem here with Anet is that they are essentially trying to balance replacement of 1 skill for Scrapper vs Holo trading off Elite toolbelt for A WHOLE WEAPON SET

This is what's unfair for Scrapper right now, this is why people hate the Function Gyro on F5.

Anet could easily integrate a new "Scrapper mode" into F5 which gives access to special Gyro command skills but I think that would take too much effort to balance.

Just some suggestions off the top of my head if this ever were to exist :

3 Gyros to function at once, last Gyro summoned will be destroyed upon a new command. Gyros can be targeted and destroyed.

Skill 1 - Function Gyro (stomp or rez)

Skill 2 - Gyro Scan ( AoE reveal at a targeted spot)

Skill 3 - Defense Matrix (pulses Protection on the target, or pulses Protection on self when not targetting an Ally)

Skill 4 - Recall (Cancels all Gyro's current commands and returns them to the Scrapper, giving 750 Barrier per Gyro recalled)

Skill 5 - Seek (Cancels all Gyro's current commands and sends them to self destruct on the target enemy. Inflicts vulnerbility and knocks down. Scrapper mode is automatically put into a 60 second cooldown)

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@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:Elite spec tradeoffs would have made sense if they introduced them from the outset. Marketing them as 'just another way to play', then making them functionally a direct upgrade, only to introduce tradeoffs later; that was the mistake.

It was a mistake but it doesn't mean leveling the playground now is a bad move.

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@"ZeftheWicked.3076" said:New shroud/shades replace old one.F-Gyro did not make toolbelt dissapear.

It was not a replacement but an add-on. Making it take up elite slot is an actual trade-off and some justice to core engi.

as a necromancer main I can safely say scrapper gyro taking f5 is not "a replacement" that works, the gyro system becoming wells was bad enough, and now they lose their mechanic in exchange for what is effectively a bad warbanner ( warrior elite) smaller range, no boons, warbanner can't be destroyed, if it's replacing the possibility of huge CC, then it should be something that works, but you have to basically stand on top of the target to cast this, so why not just res them anyway?

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Moa is op and it shouldn't exist in the game - even for Mesmy. That being said, the toolbelt of Moa only needed to change, but other than that F5 toolbelt depending on elite was already fine, and when it is able to reveal by picking Stealth Gyros, Deadeyes were able to remove that already - the e-spec that abuses stealth.

Right now it's useless. I though it would be something like Necro's Blood Well, but it's nothing, a waste of cast time, with an almost as far as a melee weapon can hit. If Moa was strong, nerf Moa, but this is just... nothing.

For the -300 Vit, I believe if the devs consider e-specs to be an individual class, not a new way of playing core, then it means that Scrapper is a low tier HP class, which is somehow justified. If not then it shouldn't have got that trait change. Back to -300 Vit; it's a bit too much and it forces the Scrapper into a gear setup that is really annoying. For an Ele main, 11k HP was a pain to try and hit certain HP (and Toughness) so I won't get obliterated by others, which results in losing a worth of stats only invested in HP/Toughness.

Perhaps if the changes to the F5 gyro in which the gyro you send acts like a Scourge's shade, that it shares the same effects of the gyro utilities. For example, using Bulwark Gyro, triggers it on both you and the F5 (with lesser effects), it may have felt that the gyro is actually a mechanic, but the gyro shouldn't receive rune/sigil benefits (imagine double anti-toxin runes).

In short, either turn it back and change Moa, or make Gyro share the effects of gyro utilities with some tweaks to the F5 gyro cooldown/charges/range/radius.

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@Sobx.1758 said:

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:Elite spec tradeoffs would have made sense if they introduced them from the outset. Marketing them as 'just another way to play', then making them functionally a direct upgrade, only to introduce tradeoffs later; that was the mistake.

It was a mistake but it doesn't mean leveling the playground now is a bad move.

Of course, it just gave the community something to gripe about when it actually should have been that way from the outset. If it had always been that way, there'd be no complaints.

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I don’t think this new series of ‘trade offs’ had anything balance orientated in mind.

In reality, all anet has done is identified all the ‘addition’ type especs (especs that straightup add a mechanic/s) and attached additional nerfs to it. The ‘addition’ especs were Druid, Daredevil, Scrapper, Chrono and formerly Beserker (revenant especs not counted since core was initially badly designed with Herald in mind).

From a balance point of view, addition especs sound bad for the game, but it doesn’t detract from the fact how anet managed to keep them in line with the rest of the game up until this year. Especs don’t only come with mechanics; they force a players to use a predetermined traitline - a possible trade off in itself. Where ‘replacement’ especs received uber-strong traitlines on top of replaced mechanics that rivalled addition ones anyway, addition especs (with the exception of daredevil) received generally weaker traitlines that housed one or two ‘gems’ which made the traitline seem less bad overall.

Then something happened since the end of last year that made balance go all awry. Some of the addition especs got buffs they probably should have never gotten that triggered this ‘trade off’ craze, and anet decided to proceed in this direction under the banner of ‘giving core more of a competitive chance’ (where I’m still wondering whether people would optionally choose core specs even after patch, not because the espec was completely nuked out of orbit). If they were truly levelling the playing field, they are intentionally choosing an extremely convoluted way to do so, whilst making many players lose faith in their ability to manage the game at the same time.

Since anet is evidently incapable of backtracking and considering changes that would directly achieve intended results, the only thing we can really do now is wait and see in what other complicated ways they’ll fix up their own mess.

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@"Noodle Ant.1605" said:

Since anet is evidently incapable of backtracking and considering changes that would directly achieve intended results, the only thing we can really do now is wait and see in what other complicated ways they’ll fix up their own mess.

Take it from me and yu heard it here first :

They are gonna continue "balancing" classes to the point the entire Triats system will be overhauled again.

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@"Vagrant.7206" said:

Except the new shroud/shades add some MASSIVE bonuses to core necro. F-gyro has always had extremely limited utility. Why does the f-gyro require a more significant tradeoff for what is actually worse than the core skill?

That's a problem of core necro being really bad, those "MASSIVE bonuses" just put necro elites in line with other elites, not above them. Once we go back to core, necro is sorely behind the rest of the pack, least PvE wise.Rest assured a lot of necros would gladly accept elite nerfs, if core was properly buffed making them alternate playstyle and not must haves to catch up with the rest of the world.

@"Kuulpb.5412" said:as a necromancer main I can safely say scrapper gyro taking f5 is not "a replacement" that works, the gyro system becoming wells was bad enough, and now they lose their mechanic in exchange for what is effectively a bad warbanner ( warrior elite) smaller range, no boons, warbanner can't be destroyed, if it's replacing the possibility of huge CC, then it should be something that works, but you have to basically stand on top of the target to cast this, so why not just res them anyway?

Warbanners didn't stomp downed ppl. That for starters was the biggest issue with function gyro. Not to mention function gyro did not need 180s to be used again. You're comparing an elite skill that is made to have huge impact, has huge cooldown and requires an elite slot, to a free utility, that costed nothing save equipping scrapper traitline.

Now actual cost (F5 slot) has been introduced. As for how effective this new gyro is - that is up for debate, but the old one was pretty disgusting to say the least. Paired with nigh unkillable, cc heavy scrapper it meant guaranteed stomps or resses. Hell even without those scrapper has ways to seal the deal, like stealthing a downed ally, then ressing them. Or the elixir R. or...let's just say that ressing and stomping are pretty powerful on engi. And if most engies don't take advantage...that's not my problem.

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@"ZeftheWicked.3076" said:I say good job a-net. Sorry but i was quite often on the receiving end of scrapper as a necro and let's make some things clear:

  1. old gyro + scrapper = guaranteed stomp. There was no defense.
  2. F5 moa was disgusting. I pop lich or other transform, it gets shut down by toolbelt skill...
  3. being able to ress/stomp without putting your neck on the line or burning a crucial skill is a big deal

Maybe some fine tuning is needed here and there, but i say good riddance to f-gyro and F5 moa on scrappers.

We had a time-window of 2 months. In those two months the Scrapper was playable and actually even user-friendly. We have still been easy kills for Thives, Elementalists and Warriors. Also almost every class who picked condition-damage was able to obliterate us within seconds. We were not dominating the field, we just have been another bunker in the team. I got it, bunkers are evil. The ones you have to deal with are already way too powerful, you did not need another. Your cries have been heard, we got balanced. If you play a GC class, we are almost 1-shot targets again. If you play bunker, we are meat-shields now. The barrier I can build up during 1vX is in most cases lower than the 3k HP I lost for picking Scrapper. Conclusion: We are not a TANK, we are a JOKE.

In addition we lost all of our damage-multipliers, which were compared to other classes quite ridiculous. The old system, if we went full "dps" 25 %, IF we managed to maintain Stability and Barrier during the fight. Now we are balanced, we can achieve a total of 15 % if we are able to maintain Swiftness, Stability and Superspeed. That is already a ridiculous move to begin with. Ever got stealthed by a thief and a mesmer? It is the same level of stupid.

Superspeed is our mono-buff, we got rid of quickness months ago because we do not deserve it. Superspeed has no real purpose in the game, but they want us to have control over it, because the cool buffs are already taken by the meta-classes ^^. So we are the Superspeed buffers now, yay. However you have to have us in very close range around you, because Superspeed is so super, it does not stack duration. Rapid Regeneration got removed with the balance patch, which pretty much destroyed our heal scrapper. It was powered by Superspeed, but without that trait the buff has no real purpose for us. Did you ever stand in combat or the field and thought "Damn. If I now had Superspeed?"

Your complaints were successful, we are back at square one. The class is easier to play and understand now. But we got striped of most of our powers. When I play WvW at the moment, I die BEFORE the glasscannons if I dare to use the little sustain I have left to "tank." Fighting trashmobs in PVE feels awesome, but during bossfights (Elite or higher), my barrier that is (quote) "to refocus the scrapper as a tank-like character that utilizes personal barrier applications to stay in a fight" usually gets penetrated with a single strike.

On the other hand, I had two months of fun. Two months where my class felt like it was viable and accepted by the others. Not being the walking joke, who refuses to play a useful class. Two months where people were happy to see a Scrapper in the Squad, even in PvE.

Anyway life goes on. You have what you wanted. My class plays better than ever, it just is not very useful. As it always has been.

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"giving core more of a competitive chance"

Any of you play in the first year of the game? Any of you remember what classes were

? This idea of balancing elites against core is a big joke because it assumes that core was something great when history says otherwise. Nerfing elites to "bring them in line with core" doesn't fix what was wrong with many core specs in the first place. Engineer core was "jack of all trades, master at none". Yea, let's make "master at none" great again - don't blame people when they instead go play a class (or elite spec) that is master at its role. SMH.
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@ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

@"Vagrant.7206" said:

Except the new shroud/shades add some MASSIVE bonuses to core necro. F-gyro has always had extremely limited utility. Why does the f-gyro require a more significant tradeoff for what is actually worse than the core skill?

That's a problem of core necro being really bad, those "MASSIVE bonuses" just put necro elites in line with other elites, not above them. Once we go back to core, necro is sorely behind the rest of the pack, least PvE wise.Rest assured a lot of necros would gladly accept elite nerfs, if core was properly buffed making them alternate playstyle and not must haves to catch up with the rest of the world.

My point is that while the F-gyro was a strict "addition" as someone here called it, it wasn't a massive bonus over core. But they've made this "elite" mechanic complete garbage now, to where it can't even finish a downed person who attacks it once or twice. And then it sits in the toolbelt and occupies a slot where other actually useful skills once were. It's an "elite mechanic" that passively harms the user.

If they're not going to buff its health (at the very minimum), I'd rather they delete the entire thing altogether. That way they could give up the charade of scrapper actually having an elite mechanic.

@ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

@"Kuulpb.5412" said:as a necromancer main I can safely say scrapper gyro taking f5 is not "a replacement" that works, the gyro system becoming wells was bad enough, and now they lose their mechanic in exchange for what is effectively a bad warbanner ( warrior elite) smaller range, no boons, warbanner can't be destroyed, if it's replacing the possibility of huge CC, then it should be something that works, but you have to basically stand on top of the target to cast this, so why not just res them anyway?

Warbanners didn't stomp downed ppl. That for starters was the biggest issue with function gyro. Not to mention function gyro did not need 180s to be used again. You're comparing an elite skill that is made to have huge impact, has huge cooldown and requires an elite slot, to a free utility, that costed nothing save equipping scrapper traitline.

Warbanners do stomp downed people.

@ZeftheWicked.3076 said:Now actual cost (F5 slot) has been introduced. As for how effective this new gyro is - that is up for debate, but the old one was pretty disgusting to say the least. Paired with nigh unkillable, cc heavy scrapper it meant guaranteed stomps or resses. Hell even without those scrapper has ways to seal the deal, like stealthing a downed ally, then ressing them.

Hard to call the old function gyro "disgusting". The old function gyro had 5000 health, and, when traited, one stack of stability, and a 10s lifespan. This meant that a downed player and a nearby ally could easily deal with it if they chose to. The downed ally could either waste the clock on the gyro (ele, thief), or remove the stability and let their ally help.

@ZeftheWicked.3076 said:Or the elixir R. or...let's just say that ressing and stomping are pretty powerful on engi. And if most engies don't take advantage...that's not my problem.

Ah yes, the all-powerful Elixir R. I've seen that in so many PvP matches since HoT dropped that I can't believe it still exists.

Really, does it still exist?

/s

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@"Elmo Benchwarmer.3025" said:You hate core Engineer. I hate the wannabe Warrior specialisations. Neither your bias nor mine is a strong argument against a playstyle.

Were you responding to me? I've played core engineer since launch and was familiar with much of the discussion about it on the old GW2 forum. It remains the class I know best. My opinion is not uninformed. I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "playstyle", but yes, the "jack of all trades master at none" is a playstyle that didn't work out well then and still doesn't. That's why these so-called trade-offs on especs to "bring in line with core" don't make core any stronger. Unless you're talking about core warrior. Did you like the dungeon speed run video? Lol.

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