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Kylden Ar.3724

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@Pyroatheist.9031 said:This is hilarious and sad. I feel bad for both mesmers that still play PvP.

Weird, I had 2-4 CI Mirages in every other P+ match. Guess they were just clones then, huh.

It's a shame this happened so late in the season as this was probably the worst season I've ever played in due to this build.Maybe I won't quit playing this gamemode after all, but let's see how bad all the Holo's will be.

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@Asum.4960 said:

@"Pyroatheist.9031" said:This is hilarious and sad. I feel bad for both mesmers that still play PvP.

Weird, I had 2-4 CI Mirages in every other P+ match. Guess they were just clones then, huh.

It's a shame this happened so late in the season as this was probably the worst season I've ever played in due to this build.Maybe I won't quit playing this gamemode after all, but let's see how bad all the Holo's will be.

and while i played i had 1-2 mesmers at best, and what I kept seeing was 3-4 thiefs or 3-4 holos, the moment i started tinkering with builds and dropped to gold then i saw alot of mirages, funny how this " carry class broken as shieeeeet " appears in gold and not the higher you go.

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@Fashion Mage.3712 said:While they're at it, it would be great if they could just disable everything that I personally don't like playing against. Thanks.

Being essentially permanently immobilized and dazed for 90% of all combat in a match should the Mirage focus you seems pretty objectively unfun, rather than a personal preference.

But if you main this broken spec for too long maybe you forget that not everything can dodge while immobed etc., idk.

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@"Pyroatheist.9031" said:This is hilarious and sad. I feel bad for both mesmers that still play PvP.

Weird, I had 2-4 CI Mirages in every other P+ match. Guess they were just clones then, huh.

It's a shame this happened so late in the season as this was probably the worst season I've ever played in due to this build.Maybe I won't quit playing this gamemode after all, but let's see how bad all the Holo's will be.

and while i played i had 1-2 mesmers at best, and what I kept seeing was 3-4 thiefs or 3-4 holos, the moment i started tinkering with builds and dropped to gold then i saw alot of mirages, funny how this " carry class broken as shieeeeet " appears in gold and not the higher you go.

I can only speak from personal experience, and I haven't been as low as gold in many seasons. But even in Plat 2, I would get matches where ppl would swap to triple Mirage on a team, including God's of PvP.So to me, it doesn't seem like it's just a low rank stomper.Although considering how incredibly easy it's to play compared to it's insane effectiveness as well as the demoralising effect it has, I would't be surprised if it's even more common in lower ranks.That doesn't exactly paint a more favourable picture on the spec though.

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@Genesis.7864 said:So anet shot Chrono in the face in PvP and now mirage just got its knee caps blown off in PvP. What's the point of going Mesmer for anything any more? I vote to delete the profession, it's pretty useless now :)

(kidding btw,, but it seriously needs an entire rework from the ground up)

To be fair Chrono deserved to get shot in the face. CI Mesmer however... while I agree that CI needed to be looked at, they were still countered by both Holo and Thieves.

Oh also, they talk about the degenerate play but left Scourge, Holosmith, Staff Evade Thief, Condi Thief, Water Weaver and Fire Weaver alone. This is coming from someone who plays mostly Ele and Thief.

The whole concept of Scourge is broken imho.

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@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:In the entire traitlines:Duelling - 1good traitChaos - dead at pvp, 1 good trait in wvwIllusion - 1 good traitDom - 2 or 3 good traitsInspi - meme traitlineMirage - 1 good traitChrono - dead thanks to no ip

Next on the lines - IH to end mirage once and for all.

I reckon deceptive evasion also gonna get killed come October, along with removal of IP from mirage.

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@Asum.4960 said:

@Fashion Mage.3712 said:While they're at it, it would be great if they could just disable everything that I personally don't like playing against. Thanks.

Being essentially permanently immobilized and dazed for 90% of all combat in a match should the Mirage focus you seems pretty objectively unfun, rather than a personal preference.

But if you main this broken spec for too long maybe you forget that not everything can dodge while immobed etc., idk.

I play guardian almost exclusively, so meh. I'm just less prone to exaggeration and overreacting.

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@Fashion Mage.3712 said:

@Fashion Mage.3712 said:While they're at it, it would be great if they could just disable everything that I personally don't like playing against. Thanks.

Being essentially permanently immobilized and dazed for 90% of all combat in a match should the Mirage focus you seems pretty objectively unfun, rather than a personal preference.

But if you main this broken spec for too long maybe you forget that not everything can dodge while immobed etc., idk.

I play guardian almost exclusively, so meh. I'm just less prone to exaggeration and overreacting.

So the one class with stunbreaking instant cast mass Stability and access to an instant cast stunbreaking total condition to boon conversion, as well as plenty other instant condi cleanse and stunbreaks in general.I.e. the only thing that might not as well walk away from the keyboard when meeting a CI Mirage.

Good for you.

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@Curunen.8729 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:In the entire traitlines:Duelling - 1good traitChaos - dead at pvp, 1 good trait in wvwIllusion - 1 good traitDom - 2 or 3 good traitsInspi - meme traitlineMirage - 1 good traitChrono - dead thanks to no ip

Next on the lines - IH to end mirage once and for all.

I reckon deceptive evasion also gonna get killed come October, along with removal of IP from mirage.

Yeah, it will happen.Might as well play traitless.

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@"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:In the entire traitlines:Duelling - 1good traitChaos - dead at pvp, 1 good trait in wvwIllusion - 1 good traitDom - 2 or 3 good traitsInspi - meme traitlineMirage - 1 good traitChrono - dead thanks to no ip

Next on the lines - IH to end mirage once and for all.

I think they will start with "redesigning" shatters for mirage and they will make it so we need at least 1 illusion to shatter, of course the redesigned shatters are weaker =p

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@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@"Curunen.8729" said:

I reckon deceptive evasion also gonna get killed come October, along with removal of IP from mirage.

Yeah, it will happen.Might as well play traitless.

No thank you, traitless is a buff if you consider EM, I would rather play without EM than have it xD

They must force you to pick it, and then they will come up with "tradeoff for grandmaster traits"

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Realistically I'm willing to bet the following is going to happen on mirage next patch:

  • IP removal from mirage
  • weaker "shatters" as tradeoff for stronger ambushes (whether they buff player ambush significantly to make up for this is another thing)
  • F4 becomes Desert Distortion, and gets the 1s treatment similar to continuum split

I believe mirage will sacrifice the ability to do big shatter burst (power or condi) through F1 and F2, making them more debuff or providing enhancement for a follow up ambush attack (like riddle of sand does, but maybe with power). This is because ambush being the unique mechanic compared with chrono/core so it must be incentivised compared with pure shatter being incentivised on core and I don't know what being incentivised on chrono.

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The phrase 'Smiter's boon' gets thrown around a lot but this is literally Smiter's boon mk 2, they even used the same reasoning and claims about coming back to fix it. I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

@"Curunen.8729" said:Interestingly in the announcement he mentioned one of the reasons for not being able to get this changed until the next balance update is because it would involve changes to multiple traits.

I can't work out what that could be referring to aside from CI, unless the change they have in mind also requires supplementary changes to take into account knock on effects. Can't be anything on mirage line specifically as nothing interacts with CI, it's kind of standalone in application, same as mantra.

Mirage trade offs that "Mesmer" players were asking for are coming and they are going to gut the class in every game mode.

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@"Kylden Ar.3724" said:So, this happened --

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/83741/chaotic-interruption-temporarily-disabled-in-pvp

Competitive is pretty much dead to me. Disable AN ENTIRE TRAIT for 3 months because it's too hard to just add an internal cooldown?

Which as I'm not interested in grinding in PvE, and there's no LS for a while, guess I am kinda done with the game for the most part for a quarter. Got a boss blitz event tonight with the guild alliance, assuming that can keep me interested for more than an hour, then guess I will come back for about 3 hours when LS5E1 hits.

Reminds me of a joke about how to PvP in WoW. Don't recall the exact details, but the gist basically went:

1) Play PvP to identify which classes beat you.

2) Go to every forum the devs pay attention to and bitch about those classes.

3) If anyone defends those classes, find some way to subtly insult them or otherwise press their buttons without doing anything overtly offensive. Your goal is to get them to react in a manner that gets them banned without drawing the ire of the moderators yourself.

4) Your ultimate goal is to successfully cast "Summon Dev", resulting in the nerfing of the target class, enough times for the class to be nerfed so heavily it might as well have been removed from the format.

5) Return to step 1.

@"Levetty.1279" said:The phrase 'Smiter's boon' gets thrown around a lot but this is literally Smiter's boon mk 2, they even used the same reasoning and claims about coming back to fix it. I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

Actually, they never claimed they'd come back and fix Smiter's Boon in GW1. The reasoning then was that they couldn't see any way it could be fixed and so they just wanted to remove it from competitive play altogether. They said that if they ever came up with a solution they might revisit it, but from what I recall at the time, they were fairly upfront that it would likely be permanent.

Honestly, I think it would have been better if they'd boonsmited here as well: if they split the skill and made it effectively useless in PvP, at least it would show up in update notes. I heard that there'd been some major nerf applied to the CI mesmer, and my first port of call was to go to the update notes. It's not even a matter of "not everyone goes to the forums" - it's not even in the spot you'd expect to find it on the forums.

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@draxynnic.3719 said:

@"Levetty.1279" said:The phrase 'Smiter's boon' gets thrown around a lot but this is literally Smiter's boon mk 2, they even used the same reasoning and claims about coming back to fix it. I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

Actually, they never claimed they'd come back and fix Smiter's Boon in GW1. The reasoning then was that they couldn't see
any
way it could be fixed and so they just wanted to remove it from competitive play altogether. They said that
if
they ever came up with a solution they
might
revisit it, but from what I recall at the time, they were fairly upfront that it would likely be permanent.

Honestly, I think it would have been better if they'd boonsmited here as well: if they split the skill and made it effectively useless in PvP,
at least it would show up in update notes.
I heard that there'd been some major nerf applied to the CI mesmer, and my first port of call was to go to the update notes. It's not even a matter of "not everyone goes to the forums" - it's not even in the spot you'd expect to find it
on
the forums.

To be fair, we only have the sacred word of the balance team that they'll somehow get around to implementing a comprehensive and quality solution to this skill.

Realistically, we can expect them to take 3 months to slap it with a 10 second icd and also make MoD unusable in the same go, just for good measure.

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@Pyroatheist.9031 said:

@"Levetty.1279" said:The phrase 'Smiter's boon' gets thrown around a lot but this is literally Smiter's boon mk 2, they even used the same reasoning and claims about coming back to fix it. I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

Actually, they never claimed they'd come back and fix Smiter's Boon in GW1. The reasoning then was that they couldn't see
any
way it could be fixed and so they just wanted to remove it from competitive play altogether. They said that
if
they ever came up with a solution they
might
revisit it, but from what I recall at the time, they were fairly upfront that it would likely be permanent.

Honestly, I think it would have been better if they'd boonsmited here as well: if they split the skill and made it effectively useless in PvP,
at least it would show up in update notes.
I heard that there'd been some major nerf applied to the CI mesmer, and my first port of call was to go to the update notes. It's not even a matter of "not everyone goes to the forums" - it's not even in the spot you'd expect to find it
on
the forums.

To be fair, we only have the sacred word of the balance team that they'll somehow get around to implementing a comprehensive and quality solution to this skill.

Realistically, we can expect them to take 3 months to slap it with a 10 second icd and also make MoD unusable in the same go, just for good measure.

That and add CD to IH just so there's "drawback" on mirage?

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I think in game design terms here, "degenerate" isn't intended as an insult to the players that use it, but an observation about the versatility of the build. A "degenerate" build is, essentially, one that can do anything. A Smiter's Boon build in its heyday had good armour-piercing damage, could remove hexes and conditions with a relatively low cooldown, and had good enough heals to be a decent healer at the same time, thanks to Smiter's Boon. You could have a party of all boonsmite monks and do fairly well.

I think that's also what they're referring to here. A well-played CI mesmer had it all - good damage, oppressive CC, high mobility, and hard to kill when played well. If matchmaking and tournament rules don't prevent it, you could probably make a team of CI mesmers and do fairly well.

That's probably what they mean by "degenerate" - it's intended in the meaning of "unspecialised" rather than the typical interpretation. Except in the "good at everything" form of unspecialised rather than the "jack of all trades, master of none" meaning.

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@"draxynnic.3719" said:I think in game design terms here, "degenerate" isn't intended as an insult to the players that use it, but an observation about the versatility of the build...

The issue I take here is that CI being called “degenerate” in the idea of “all around too good at everything” is that every profession has one of those builds right now. CI is not over-performing against them, so this idea and reasoning that the players have come up with on why the devs are doing something seems off to me.

Mesmer is just broken because of Clones requiring shatters to be extremely strong at close range, because they can fail to reach or be destroyed on route to the target and their damage negated (or any other effects applied by a shatter) when used from range. Every other problem is simply a symptom of this issue, either to resolve it by closing or creating gaps at instant speed, or by removing response time (and thus counterplay). Solutions have been suggested, but sadly, as is often the case, they will probably only half implement such suggestions and will end up creating an entirely new set of problems. It is funny to think that after 7 years, they still have not come to the realization of this issue, in spite of warnings regarding the design in the beta stage of the game.

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@"draxynnic.3719" said:I think in game design terms here, "degenerate" isn't intended as an insult to the players that use it, but an observation about the versatility of the build. A "degenerate" build is, essentially, one that can do anything. A Smiter's Boon build in its heyday had good armour-piercing damage, could remove hexes and conditions with a relatively low cooldown, and had good enough heals to be a decent healer at the same time, thanks to Smiter's Boon. You could have a party of all boonsmite monks and do fairly well.

I think that's also what they're referring to here. A well-played CI mesmer had it all - good damage, oppressive CC, high mobility, and hard to kill when played well. If matchmaking and tournament rules don't prevent it, you could probably make a team of CI mesmers and do fairly well.

That's probably what they mean by "degenerate" - it's intended in the meaning of "unspecialised" rather than the typical interpretation. Except in the "good at everything" form of unspecialised rather than the "jack of all trades, master of none" meaning.

I took "degenerate" as braindead.Either way they should be careful at choosing words, if they wrote like you did "it was too good at everything yadda yadda" it would be ok, but instead they took the offensive route.They're supposed to be professionals.

@"Vincenzo.3145" said:That's kitten. Here's some counterplay right here.

/wiki conditions

/wiki resistance

There you go. Maybe if people would learn to play the kitten game instead of forcing Anet to cater to brainless idiots, we would see some sensible balance changes.

Or maybe we could see how THEY would like it if we took to their forums and started whining about their classes. Because that's CLEARLY the intelligent thing to do.

I used to play CI although in a power build, freaking stab counters the entire build!You know how "degenerate" the entire community is when they prefer to come to forums getting traits nerfed instead of changing one or two skills on their build.

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@"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

I used to play CI although in a power build, freaking stab counters the entire build!You know how "degenerate" the entire community is when they prefer to come to forums getting traits nerfed instead of changing one or two skills on their build.

Ya know, strangely enough, Zeromis ran dom/dueling marauders power mes and still had enough of a brain + boon strip without arcane thievery/annulment to beat bunker boonbeast at its prime in a 1v1 when it took siamoth for plasma and dolyak stance.

"You know how 'degenerate' the entire mesmer community is when they prefer to come to forums getting traits nerfed instead of changing one or two skills on their build."

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@shadowpass.4236 said:

@"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

I used to play CI although in a power build, freaking stab counters the entire build!You know how "degenerate" the entire community is when they prefer to come to forums getting traits nerfed instead of changing one or two skills on their build.

Ya know, strangely enough, Zeromis ran dom/dueling marauders power mes and still had enough of a brain + boon strip without arcane thievery/annulment to beat bunker boonbeast at its prime in a 1v1 when it took siamoth for plasma
and
dolyak stance.

"You know how 'degenerate' the entire mesmer community is when they prefer to come to forums getting traits nerfed instead of changing one or two skills on their build."

It's not like zeromis is awesome, is more like everyone else in NA is lackluster.

Your last sentence makes no sense at all.

Mesmer community is the most self-conscious community in the game, hence we were the ones proposing a series of nerfs that would made mirage balance. At the same time you and your knowledgeable community were spamming threads saying "nerf X and mirage will be fine" every single patch.But good news ANerf took all your suggestions instead and you're still crying nerf x now, mirage still op.

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@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@"draxynnic.3719" said:I think in game design terms here, "degenerate" isn't intended as an insult to the players that use it, but an observation about the versatility of the build. A "degenerate" build is, essentially, one that can do anything. A Smiter's Boon build in its heyday had good armour-piercing damage, could remove hexes and conditions with a relatively low cooldown, and had good enough heals to be a decent healer at the same time, thanks to Smiter's Boon. You could have a party of all boonsmite monks and do fairly well.

I think that's also what they're referring to here. A well-played CI mesmer had it all - good damage, oppressive CC, high mobility, and hard to kill when played well. If matchmaking and tournament rules don't prevent it, you could probably make a team of CI mesmers and do fairly well.

That's probably what they mean by "degenerate" - it's intended in the meaning of "unspecialised" rather than the typical interpretation. Except in the "good at everything" form of unspecialised rather than the "jack of all trades, master of none" meaning.

I took "degenerate" as braindead.Either way they should be careful at choosing words, if they wrote like you did "it was too good at everything yadda yadda" it would be ok, but instead they took the offensive route.They're supposed to be professionals.

It's probably not the best choice of words, no, but it is one they've used before. The precedent is that "degenerate gameplay" means "everyone is playing the same thing" rather than being intended to be insulting.

On the question of whether the CI mesmer really was that good compared to other builds there - I'm not necessarily saying that I agree with ArenaNet's reasoning, just laying out what the balance team usually means by "degenerate gameplay" and how it could be applied to the CI mesmer. That said, my own anecdotal observation that over the last month it's been uncommon to see ranked matches that don't have two mesmers a side does suggest there might have been something off going on there.

(To be honest, I found that I usually had more of an impact on the game playing other builds, but that might be a mix of the matchmaking throwing up one-sided matches and not having had the opportunity to fully master the build.)

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