Moradorin.6217

If by diversity you mean the ability to play in pve/pvp/wvw and do things like solo most pve content and have flexibility and performance in all of them I would say Engi, Rev, Necro maybe Ranger and Guard too. Ele, Thief, Mes can do it (any can) but I would say they need more skill from the player than the others and will usually require total equipment, build, play style change more than the first ones I mentioned so I would avoid them unless you want a challenge, but your post implies you want to probably use one spec for all modes and things in which case I would avoid Mes, ele, thief.

I actually dont agree with your concept of complexity when you say "[...]more buttons we add that need to be pressed, the more complex the class is[...]," nor do I agree that "[...]a class that can do everything it needs to by using just a few buttons[...]" equates to what constitutes a simple build's rotation. That seems to honestly totally miss how complicated vs simple works in gw2. I get it and I agree that is the perception of the typical player. However, typical players are often wrong about this kind of topic. What IS an example of complicated game play vs simple game play? First let me define what I think constitutes simple gameplay. Most if not all classes have builds in which the ordering of the keys used makes minimal difference in the dps/heal/boon performance as long as they get hit off cooldown. ordering them perfectly can make a slight improvement in performance but its general not significant (say within 70-80% of benchtest). I would call those simple builds. That said, many of them require a TON of key pressing. Scrapper, scourge, herald, druid, etc all require a ton of key pressing, heck you pretty much spam the keys all day on them. That said, they are all pretty dirt simple to play compared to more complex specs. For instance, sword holo or condi holo requires watching and timing skills or you go from top dps to suck dps from a minor error or two. That said, I wouldnt even consider sword holo to be that complex, but it requres allot more practice, understanding and skill to get good numbers from it than a scrapper. (same class dif spec) What do I say makes a build or play style complex? Its when you have to learn to do extra things other than just pressing the skills. Things like stowing weapons to stop animations or special timing of a group of skills to get good dps like timing holo forge or continum split (chrono), or needing to use up all your dodges and fill ini then hit signet before you spam 2 on DD is also sorta complex tho its just 1 key you mostly us and Mirage Cloak has special timing and if you just spam they keys you dont trigger it some times and waste it and mess up your dps and the rest. Granted Mirage, and DD can both be pretty simple BUT they can also be rather complex depending the objective. Meanwhile, other specs like mech as you point out can avoid most of the penalties or common errors. So I guess Im trying to say that simple builds may or may not have allot of keys but a simple build is forgiving in its performance when you mess up. A complicated build requires more ordering, timing and often has a much larger loss in performance when you mess up. (IMO before CMC that used to be the justification for some specs outperforming others in certain situations and was a reward for investing your time and effort into the more complex/less common play styles. CMC seems to have been undoing this all sadly.) I could go on, but tbh I dont play much anymore. I have limited interest. However, this topic does touch on an aspect I feel is a serious issue that mostly gets miss-understood. (also I want Mirage to have a consistent number of dodges across game modes cause its really poor design and ruins continuity of play when moving between modes to stay entertained. Its needless inconsistency in the place of actual balance that also adds to complexity in the form of discontinuity.)

The value is in the work. EI the work is its own reward. I would like to say that investing time in learning to do hard rotations and play challenging builds was rewarding in a lasting way. However, any play benefit seen is arguably undone by nerfs and changes that will make the old things learned break and force one to learn new things and invest more time only to have to repeat the process. It can seem interesting and ok for a while, but personally, after a few times of investing significant time and effort into developing a non-standard play style only to have it destroyed for performing well can leave a bad taste. Personally, it made me feel like a fool for wasting my time when I can get 90% of the same performance for 10% the effort from other builds. Therefore, I suggest avoiding any challenging builds. Play what ever will give you the best performance and enjoyment for the least time investment and just play the game. Its literally a mistake to invest time to develop build specific skills in this game. The games balance is geared for low intensity and balanced to it at this point. Seriously, dont get sucked down this rabbit hole of skilled play in gw2. Its a huge pitfall many fall into and by the time you realize it you have invested 100s or 1000s of hours into a thing that will evaporate in one balance patch.

My guess based onyhe OPs message remains the same. I think he opted to play Reaper because its simpler to operate and has awsome cleave/dps and cc. Mesmer is good in the right hands, sure. No one was trying to debate that. That said, Mesmer has many layers of complexity compared to reaper. Reaper you have shroud or not shroud and hit keys. Mesmer you have generate clones, which shatter when, what is the rotation and missed rotation = crap damage usually and maybe u also die easy on mesmer when you arent familiar with how it all works and how to time all of that. IMO reaper is dirt simple compared. As I said. It also has better cleave aka faster damage in general pve which I think is what the OP was talking about. As to why its derailing its because people are bias against mesmer and even mentioning its not the best in show for all things tends to get this type of response. Cause why? IMO bias.

The tone of your post and others IMO is meant to imply that the OP is wrong for choosing Reaper and that he should use Mesmer and that my agreeing that reaper can be better, especially, for a possible new player are also wrong. You gloss over all the actual points made and just try to imply the other view is baseless. That is for sure what I would say sounds bias. I duno what you are prattling on about... TBH I dont play much pve outside instanced things like raids/strikes if I play at all anymore. I mained many specs but spent more time on Mesmer than the rest. That said, when I do play these days I usually choose thief, rev or engi (not mech) some times necro or ranger too. Mesmer is my last choice of them all. Granted I have full legendary on all of them so I can setup any build I like which not everyone can do. I dont respond to posts like this based on my personal preference at all. I responded because the OP made a seemingly honest post about Reaper and how they are enjoying it vs when they had been trying the same content (pve) with a Mesmer and everyone that was responding was kinda either trolling him or bashing him for saying he liked reaper over Mesmer. THAT is mostly why I responded and what I said reflects that perspective. It also reflects my awareness of the common bias here about anything that is not claiming that Mesmer is somehow OP and BIS for all things. That is reflected when I say as much and also when I mention that Mirage and Mesmer can be very strong for many things like soloing a champ and certain types of content. IMO your responses and all the confused and laughs on the OP, my response, as well as, Apharma's & Xlion's posts. Its sadly what I expected to happen to this persons thread..

Meaning he needed nice cleave and the functionality of Reaper as I said. TYVM! Some people are very bias and just look for another chance to bash Mesmer every time its mentioned. ty for not doing that.

Thanks. I like the way you put it. Thats what I was thinking is why the OP is liking Reaper better also. As I said in my other post in this thread. The forums and streaming community is very bent on maintaining nerfs on Mesmer due in a large part to bias that is apparent in some of the other responses. Like when people talk about being able to dodge while stuned as if thats a large consideration for a person just looking for smooth pve play vs just cleaving everything BEFORE they can CC u in the first place.... Its just obvious how much bias is present.

To both of you I would say I 100% stick to what I said about Mirage vs reaper. You are not really directly addressing anything I specified about why I feel one is better than the other for the specific tasks I mentioned. You are making generalizations that literally ignore everthing I specified. In other words, you are not responding to what I said, you are only responding to my claim that reaper is better burts and therefore stronger in general pve for average payers. Cele staff is a thing that shouldnt exsist because its all from bad balance inthe first place thanks to CMC. Its pepega. That said, even staff sucks compared to just being able to almost instantly cleave down everything in pve instances and typical OW compared to waiting for the projectiles to start to bounce and clones to get made and condi stacks to build so things start to die off gradually. Reaper is gona be WAY faster and simpler. The alternate is gona be axe or power which I eluded to when I mentioned axe specifically when comparing reaper since reaper is all about quick burst and cc/chill most of the time. Also I litterally said Mirage was a good pick to solo champs. That doesnt make it good general pve compared to a Necro or better. Nexro is gona be far easier for the average player to do ALL things. Mirage will good for avg player to play pepega staff....only GS on Mirage is NOT mele its range non-projetile and can be very handy for light show tagging during events. Its a decent option, but u cannot solo a champ well w a GS on mes.

Yeah agreed. roaming is pretty dead these days it feels like especially on Mirage/Mesmer. It makes me sad tho cause I get bored on zergs about as fast as I get bored doing world boss runs. Meaning, its fun when you really want to play and just want action. I always did worth with zergs/comms but when I used to be able to roam on my Mesmer I love to do a combination of things to keep me entertained like scout, cap solo/duelable objectives, duel fight, and help the tags with bigger caps + locating enemy for them. It was great varied fun and kept me entertained for long periods. Zerg I cannot usually stand more then 1-2 hours then I want a break also I get bored in zergs cause they tend to idle allot and then I lose interest. When I played Mesmer in wvw and roaming wasnt dead I felt allot more entertained in wvw. I miss my Mirage...

People like to place Mirage high on tier lists for many reasons. One is its popular to over-rate Mirage because allot of popular streamers like maintaining this perception because it pleases the Anet Dev team IMO. It pleases them because they put allot of work into keeping Mirage strong in pve while also keeping it weak/limited in pvp/wvw because people dont like dealing with the clones, etc in pvp/wvw. Granted, its not that Mirage in perfect hands played perfectly cannot do well. Rather, its that Reaper is usually very easy and forgiving to play and get good numbers. Most specs (not just reaper) you can tweak rotations and basically hit good numbers still. The acceptions are when a utility skill is in the rotation or other skills that u hit before your big damage skill due to a damage boost which is also not complicated to understand and do. On the other hand, Mirage has allot of strange timing issues due to the length of certain skill animations + MC window time and how MC is activated + the need for Mirage to be in certain placed around the boss or to get mirrors and also will need to keep facing the target during any of that. Otherwise, the damage on Mirage can go from legendary to meh. Meanwhile, the reaper will still have tons of burst. Also Mirage pve builds tend to ramp up damage while Reaper is huge burst. So in general pve I would say the reaper would be much easier, faster and smoother. The mirage can retune its build and weapon choice to become able to solo champs. That said, so can a necro and either way the necro will have MUCH easier builds that will tend to perform better in average players hands. IMO Mirage is really not worth bothering with at this point unless you just love the theme. Granted I know staff Mirage can be super easy its just much slower compared and falls apart when you cannot keep clones alive. I would think these are the kinda reasons the OP moved to reaper and is happy. I would never really pay attention to those tier lists. They are heavily bias.

I have been thinking maybe they should rework Infinite Horizon (IH) to let Mirage choose between a shatter focused or Ambush (via clones) focued build. It could be done a few ways I guess. Like maybe if IH is selected ambush effects come from clones and then the focus is to preserve clones for the extra ambush effects, at the cost of a reduction to shatter damage. Although, a better way might be to make clones performing ambush baseline and balance with it in mind then add a GM trait in place of IH that boosts shatter skills but turns off clones ambush effects. This would make the most sense to me and seems easiest to balance because it gives the most consistent base Mirage function for its ambushes unless the shatter focus was selected. Then as far as alac goes it seems like it should probably not be generated by ambush skills because they just seems problematic for balance accross the board due to how it just piles more things onto a thing that they already said was hard to balance. Maybe alac could just pulse from a skill slot or be tied to a utility slot skill or a special trait that again alters how ambushes in general function that reduces the damage of the ambush effects in exchange for alacrity generation when traited.

This thread is about Mirage NOT chrono or Virt. Also in an effort to help you I will point out ALL Ranger specs have the ability to use pet commands in the down state but you have to use the keybindings since....you are down. What I mean is, when a ranger is down they retain Function based pet commands and the pet swap key continues to work. So in addition to the pet being able to come and revive the player, the player can also use the pets f2 skill and even swap pets to get the f2 they need or if the first pet happens to be down they can just swap pets before pressing the lick wounds downstate skill. Additionally, a ranger can plan ahead and bring pets with certain skills like CC to help them avoid being finished. They do this by targeting the player trying to finish them then hit f2 with a pet that has CC on its f2 skill.... I mained ranger before and after mesmer btw.

They should just ditch the mirrors totally tbh. they are very predictable and unneeded. It would make balancing MC allot easier if they didnt calculate mirrors into best case MC uptime. It would also give the player better agency because they dont have to create or use mirrors. I hear what ur saying and dont disagree. I just see it a little differently priority wise, but I dont rly want to derail the post talking about it. I just wanted to drop the seed.

Ok, but my point was that they need to normalize the base function of the spec across the 3 game modes badly and that will alter how any alac or quickness balance is done. Therefore, IDC about alac or quickness changes untill they deal with Mirage's variable number of dodges so that it has basic continuity between game modes. At this point, its trash because of that no matter how much or how little alac it outputs.

Its been a topic many times in various forms. I think the WvW mistforged is some of the nicest armor skins in the game and it has a version without the tentacles for those who want to hide them. That said, everyone is aware they dont take many dye colors very well which is on a list at anet of things that could use attention. Its just not a high priority. The other, perhaps bigger issue which you seemed to touch on in your last sentence is that you can buy Mistforged armor skins without ever crafting legendary armor and when you upgrade wvw armor to legendary the skin doesnt change and you gain nothing beyond the ability to change stats and use it via the armory across the account. Meanwhile, if I do some raids and complete Envoy 1 and 2 collections I end up with 2 full sets of ascended armor 1 of which is a precursor set (upgradable) to make perfected envoy armor which when crafted provides the same benefit of stat swap + armory use, BUT ALSO gives you a new exclusive legendary skin set. Technically, the WvW armor doesn't have an exclusive legendary skin set. The only problem I have with this is that WvW mistforged skins have a purchase path that raid armor doesnt have which is inconsistent. Since it was all done before the armory its understandable, however, it continues to be an issue and IMO the 3 types of legendary armor and related procurement merchants should be normalized between them all. Either by providing a merchant to unlock perfected envoy skins once requirements are met that requires the same type of materials, etc OR by adding another skin set to the wvw and pvp sets that is exclusively available from upgrading ONLY like the perfected envoy skins presentltly are. Mind you this response will probably get a bunch of neg. feedback or confused because the forum has some VERY active people who love to bash anything related to this topic. (I think its because they dont play much just post here and like to slow others progressions best they can *shrug* Im done w legendaries and dont play much now) TY for posting I agree it could use some attention. Here this was 2021-2022 (then locked by mod) the topic has had other very long threads. Agreed in that if People want the raid armor skins they should be required to do raids and complete all the collections, get the LI, prov tokens, etc. Well said *gave me a good chuckle cause what else can u do*

ur still playing? I would still just like a consistent number of dodges on Mirage. Doesnt seem like a big ask untill you see how the forums respond.

IMO the big issue is that they added Alacrity to Mirage for the wrong reasons. That is, They added alacrity to staff to nerf running staff Mirage in wvw after one dodge when some ppl still tried to run it. Sounds odd but I bet u dimes to dollars that was envolved in the motive that lead to the choice to add alac to Mirage + make it on staff vs a trait. Therefore, if you plan to suggest a change for Mirage and alac traits it should include a baseline of 2 dodges in all 3 modes as a starting point. Otherwise, TBH nothing they do will fix Mirage and at best it would make it functional in one of the 3 game modes. That said, I appreciate the time and thought you put into posting a suggestion to fix the alac issue.

I worry that its too late. At least for my Guild I feel like its too late. When alliances got announced I remember I had been trying to recruit people to my guild for what felt like a long time (has max hall, etc) and always had issues with getting people on the same server. Back then the guild was more active as the game was newer. Then they announced alliances and I and others got excited and started planning for a day (we thought soonish) that people wouldnt have to move servers to play with the rest of the guild. Well years later we are still here the recruiting that we did with the idea that we could soon not worry about which server never changed and time passed. Now most dont play as often, those that do kinda play on various servers and we have never been an integrated wvw guild and now due to age of the game + various issues that reduce my motive to recruit and plan events its all kinda gone now. I mean sure I have a max hall and tons of WvW upgrades, etc in its storage and over 450 members, but its no longer a group that talks or plays together for the most part. I can say that of every guild any of my 7 accounts is in too tbh. That is none of the guilds have active chat. None have people doing much of anything together (unless its via discord somehow). It seems to be consistent throughout the game, at this point. IMO Anet should have made QoL changes to the guild system to keep it relevant. At this point I feel like the Guild system is just a chat, member list and hall to hold nodes and food and give a use for decorations (even tho no one sees them). Maybe if they had done that guilds would be less dysfunctional and the game would be able to have social aspects that arent dependent upon a 3rd party app(discord)... What Im saying is too much time has passed and now the people I used to play wvw with are inactive or on other servers and my guild has maybe 20 people who do play wvw but not all daily, however, we are on different servers and have no experience playing with each other, nor do we even all talk much over chat since gw2 is more single player + discord than an MMO.

I was considering recently that Perhaps Mirage should be given a baseline of 3 dodges in pve/pvp/wvw, but have Mirrors removed. Then re-tune ambush damage/effects, axe, and the deception skills. That way Mirage has better control over when to trigger MC (its dodge) but it would have a more consistent max uses which makes it easier to balance. Also I was also pondering that a reasonable change might be to redo Infinite Horizon (IH) trait to EITHER give clones ambush damage output OR to enhance shatter skills to be stronger at the cost of the clones doing the ambush. Then the shatter damage skills for Mirage could be tuned more easily because the player could choose between a shatter centeric or ambush centric build emphasis via a GM trait. (just a thing I was thinking could work want feedback) Similar things could be done with other traits to give Mirage better trait options without destroying current playstyles badly.

Agreed but also agree that Salt has a point in that even in Mirage's hey day Spellbreaker was a good counter to it and when well played had enough mobility to chase down the 2 dodge version of Mirage too. I think the argument at the time was that for classes ilke weaver, guard, ranger, warrior they tended to be less forgiving when the played made certain mistakes, while the Mirage was harder to punish for typical mistakes. Specifically, as I recall in 2017-18 the topic of punishing mistakes was BIG and lead to the concept of trade-offs. That is really what led to one dodge. It was maybe just a way to prepunish for choosing Mirage in the first place since they had a hard time punishing it for single errors of timing as much or as easily as things like weaver. Just something I was thinking sorta makes sense.

What it ends up coming down to more than anything is continuity. That is, I want to be able to play Mirage as my main spec if I choose, but I have always jumped between all 3 game modes to stay entertained and fill in the otherwise empty spaces in my game time. Playing in pve with 2 dodges then jumping into wvw/pvp for a bit and suddenly the same spec has one dodge and the basic core mechanics of how dodge is used changes cause of one dodge not two. THAT IS WHAT IS WRONG! I wont suggest one dodge in all 3 modes is the best option, but I will say it would better to have one dodge Mirage in pve, wvw & pvp from a continuity standpoint. IMO they would then need to do massive boosts to its dps output tho cause, yeah. Which just drives in the point that its kittened up right now and needs to have a consistent number of dodges and two dodges is probably the easiest to balance.... JUST have to say WTF tho cause CMC did the opposite 4+ years ago. *throws up hands with middle fingers flying* LOL

I like what you are getting at. I agree. I have 6k hours on one of my Mesmers and I never play it because the one dodge nerf and other nerfs ruined my ability to swap between wvw/pvp and pve which was what I did all day all the time. My point is, the lack of equity I feel from my time investment because I feel like the one dodge nerf was just crazy lazy and breaks continuity of play for Mirage and was all done to make balance of it quick and simple (just make it suck and gtg) So yeah, equity. I suggest if Anet keeps on this track and cannot give Mirage continuity of play that it suggests people should not invest time playing ANY class with the plan that they are building skills that will be useful in the future because Anet will not respect that investment and they will not get the equity they hope for.

Mirage and thief always had hard counters in other classes. Therefore, to call them the best is bias. What I mean is, if the best can be taken out quickly and reliably with another class than its not the best its as good maybe, but has counters. The forums called Thief and Mesmer the best because they mess with players heads by design and many players have a hard time dealing with how that makes them feel when they lose. So then they decide the thing they dont understand that keeps killing them must be the best. That said, I would argue many other classes have always been better at some things and Mesmer/Thief are better at some things (used to be not now, maybe) and that should be ok cause who wants a homogynous pile of options that are all the same package with a different class name. Mesmer and Thief gave the game flavor just like ranger, engi, necro, etc. Imagine how boring the game would have been otherwise. Bottom line: Mesmer and Thief was never the best because they always had hard counters. Even when Thief and Mesmer hard countered one another a good Warrior could still outsustain a Mirage and take them out with all the mobility, cc + full Counter as could others back when Mirage had 2 dodges. People are just bias.

Scepter was never great dps on Mirage, however, before the nerfs to Mirage during 2018-2019 it was a neat option. It took allot of work to position yourself and get swap targets to hit multiple targets with scepter 3 or to be in place to try and throw up the block at the right moment so you get hit at a time that lets you make use of the clones and condi application. However, it was mostly confusion damage. Axe is the only good torrment stacking weapon available to Mirage IMO. Axe however has that unreliable evade on 3 key that is only 900 range and often seems not to trigger during basic encounters. That might not sound big, but I like my evades/blocks to be timable and I dont like being stuck inside the opponents hitbox for good damage. Scepter used to be ok, it was maybe even good for a few months iirc in 2018 when they buffed its damage but it was quickly nerfed and they also removed a clone from scepter 2 in wvw/pvp so its no good in pvp/wvw either rly. That said I used to enjoy stacking confusion with it. Its just to weak overall now to be good.

The only way I ever see Mirage kill ppl in wvw is when ppl with a poor class match up for it and the opponent willingly lingers and lets themself lose. I have not seen a Mirage or any mesmer capable of chasing down and killing a single opponent in wvw in a few years. None. Kill yes, chase down gap close and kill a reasonably competent player?? Not in years. Have not seen it, flat out. Also your off topic. The topic is about how Mirage only has one dodge in wvw/pvp and two in pve and how that impacts continuity of play. It became a topic again after Vindicator was announced as a one dodge (in all 3 modes) spec that was then given a 2nd dodge (in all 3 modes) and Mirage was designed for 2 dodges but is stuck with one in pvp/wvw without any redesign to compensate/balance for 4 kittening years now.