Delofasht.4231

No, I have a few things left to finish in the game but have been devoting more time toward other hobbies in general. My time is better spent making useful or interesting objects for around the house. It feels very gratifying to make small (or even large) furniture, tools, and utensils for around the house. Big thanks to ANet for making me realize how much time I had been wasting on a video game.

Appears to me that the feedback we have given on Mesmer changes have been thoroughly ignored, business as usual. Not really worth the time spent giving input anymore.

Basically none of the real issues with Mesmer have been resolved, and the devs have shown that fixing any Mesmer issues is never going to happen. With that said, it is a waste of time to even bother with requests on these forums. They either do not read their official forums for input, or only pay attention to issues with Mesmer that are posted by the non-Mesmer community.

Clone pathing to apply shatter effectsThis is a completely unnecessary part of shattering all together, damage should just be applied by the Mesmer next attack instead. More reliable and allows for target swap damage as needed.

Your questions highlight some of the issues with trying to balance the current design of shatters being applied through clones via the suicide bomber thematic, the numerous problems of pathing and trying to circumvent or navigate it. The easiest solution is often the correct one, in removing the issue completely. The benefits of changing to the ideas outlined in the original post go beyond just the functional and gameplay though, as they retain the theme of the profession, in revealing to the enemy which are clones through the shatter animation at the clone current location. Further benefits for both parties is reliability and consistency are improved, which makes it both easier to use the shatters for Mesmer, and avoid the shatter damage because of the visual tells for enemies; it is a single application of the shatter effects and hits all at once, Aegis and Blind become stronger when used against the Mesmer. Another thing to note is that these issues of pathing go beyond just PvP or WvW, they are problems sometimes in PvE, where pathing will cause clones to never be able to reach a target that gets knocked back by allies or moves to a target in a place where your clones cannot go to. Also, not being able to go into a fight there at full power (max clone shatter) means not being able to do significant damage in a short window. Furthermore, losing all charges of resource because the target you were on dies means weaker gameplay in PvE situations that require swapping targets... clones shattered go to the old target and ramp time issues become a detriment to the player and a limitation to encounter design for the developers, one in which they have to consider that some professions are just going to under perform unfairly in some situations. Feels bad for the player restricted by the design of the profession functionality.

Major problem with relying on the clones running to the enemy is that of pathing, where shatters can never hit enemies on a wall. There is much more work involved in trying to get clones to actually reach their target than just making them invulnerable or run faster. Edit: I do thank you for the input regarding the thematic appeal though, as it was indeed something I saw more as a secondary concern.

A little help here please, am I missing some interactions that would make such a change completely broken?

Dune Cloak needs a build with more survivability, which reduces it’s damage too much to really wear down an opponent. Unfortunately, survival power builds lose too many multipliers by giving up precision for toughness and thus lose too much in PvP. In WvW such builds can be made and are durable and do fair damage, but a lot of it ends up coming from passive might generation and vulnerability stacks coupled with the little bit of condition damage gained from vigor and might stacks to up the damage of several of the abilities connecting which when coupled with ripping boons can shutdown all sorts of highly durable but boon reliant enemy builds. Once again, that can be done in WvW but not sPvP.

Mesmer hands down... would have so much fun with my clones. Endless entertainment, unlimited productivity, and the bowling team would be super consistent.

@""tim.4596" Playable is not the same as having good performance. It functions, but it is inferior to other professions. So, goes back to what I said earlier, Mesmer in PvE is being carried by friendly players. The agency of the Chrono player is removed because now they are always having to be reactive rather than proactive, they rely on clones and their target existing until their shatters have gone off, otherwise they will always perform sub-optimally compared to another profession. We could talk at length about how it still does work, but it still is not as fluid or simply as other professions, more work with less result is never good, at least allow the performance to match other professions.

My hope with CI is that they are leaving the boons and conditions on interrupt in addition to the proposed cooldown reduction... if not, then I guess it was good that I had gotten used to Bountiful Disillusionment. Making both Mantra of Pain and Distraction a very fast moving large bolt (near instant at anything less then 600 range and almost unable to miss at 800 range, but dodgeable at 1200 range) would be a far better solution than requiring facing. It would allow for the existing gameplay, but shift the AoE effects to being a wide line shot useful for any game mode, and I could not see a bolt style skill becoming too strong anywhere. Facing as a restriction is just a boring solution that makes the Mantra usage feel awkward and unwieldy.

I still disagree with the change to Mantra of Distraction, it was only overly strong when it could pair with the existing Chaotic Interruptions Immobilize effect. The latter element is already being changed, and would not create situations where it would be completely overpowered by any means... a semi reliable way to generate a lower cooldown. I realize these notes are incomplete, but I am understanding the change to Chaotic Interruptions to mean that the immobilize is being taken off and the cooldown reduction trigger added, and not that the boons and conditions added by the trait are being removed. If this turns out to just be 5 sec CD redux in place of everything that the trait currently applies, then it will be not Chaotic at all, but just a very consistent way to reduce cooldowns of a specifically used set of skills only and at a very slow rate compared to what other professions get for cooldown reducing traits. Functionally it would die as a trait, being weaker than any other Grandmaster trait (besides Elusive Mind which seems like should add a few seconds of Superspeed for how long the exhaustion is on for).

It's really fine to be honest, yes, some open world spec became slightly unplayable, but you can play other spec and it's fine. It is not fine in modes other than PvE... that surely indicates a problem with the design. Even in PvE, supportive and many offensive builds are performing even worse than they were, and that is in optimal conditions. Any suboptimal condition is resulting in far worse representation and performance. Further even, in WvW and PvP, Chrono is now performing even worse than before because it has less instant tools to deal with many situations. To which PvE mode are you referring to exactly? Because in raid, condi chrono is not as good as mirage but it is still extremely strong, and the same goes for power chrono, it's currently one of the strongest class to do dps on (for small hitbox that is). In Fractals power chrono isn't performing so well, but it has never really been performing well due to how phantasm work, but you can nonetheless get descent number. I mean please give me an example in context, because after a few adjustment to my builds I'm not seeing that much difference in PvE at least. You just said though, any situation outside of raid has Chrono performing worse in PvE than other professions. It functions, in so much as nothing actually causes the game to stop working completely, but it fails to perform at the same level as other professions. Not much more to say here except that it is the inherent flaw of Mesmer as a whole due to how their resource requires a target existing and then generating enough and living long enough for both the generation and the travel time of clones running in to shatter. There are numerous delays for damage with Mesmer in PvE that cause it to fall behind other professions that get instant gratification of pushing a button and seeing it do damage.

Line of sight is not equal to character orientation. I believe you will still be able to hit your opponent behind chasing after you, as long as there are no solid objects (objects with hitbox, e.g., a tree, a rock or simply terrain feature) between you and your opponent.Current notes also state “face the target”... if you are running away you are not facing them. I just hope they make sure to make the charges not be consumed if the target cannot be seen or is not in line of sight, because being able to waste a charge simply due to a small rock in the way, or an elevation change, or the enemy suddenly moving to one’s flank could end up completely ruining MoD. Also, MoD is not even a problem in the game when Chaotic Interruptions is not Immobilizing the target. This is an example of nerfing 3 elements to try and to remove a single “abusive” interaction that is already being removed with their changes to CI. I can accept LoS and facing target for Mantra of Pain... because it does feel odd to use a damage skill that hits enemies instantly while running away from the enemy, but MoD doesn’t need that because it is not an offense skill so much as a utility skill. Distraction is about controlling or disrupting an enemy, not actively harming by itself, if it had a small damage component as well then it might make more sense to have facing requirements, but then it doesn’t make sense being a disruption tool as much then. Personally I feel Mantras of Pain and Distraction would be best served to have a flight time bolt that pierces attached with a very fast flight time, but one that can be avoided at above 800 range. Any closer than 800 range would be very difficult to avoid by any other method than a near instant response with a port. This would make facing mostly irrelevant for MoD or MoP, and allow them to hit multiple targets in a different way... perhaps allowing them to hit more than 5 targets and bring them into more usage in Zergs.

This contrarian thinking is not productive. Pointing out basic lack of logic in your pseudo-arguments is far from being a contrarian. Someone that played for half a year and then came back after 6 years of changes and additions sure is a reliable source of critique regarding the balance because of his uniquely fresh view on the matter, ok. Feel free to think whatever you want, it just looks like a bad bait.I think logic does not mean what you think it means... if you couldn’t follow a given point, it may be that you failed to make the connection between elements, but not asking for clarity and disregarding a statement flatly is exactly being contrary for the sheer purpose of having an objection and not to actually further your own argument. Feel free to think whatever you want, but there is no need to live under a bridge. Your argument revolves around the assertion that your statement is fact, without providing any kind of logical backing. It is based solely on your own viewpoint and assessment of what balance, performance, and representation mean, and refuses to accept any data that may point to other possibilities. It is a known that assessment of a situation from an outside source or someone not in or on a project is an excellent way to discover information that many working on the project are too close to notice. This is why consultants exist, people who are versed and knowledgeable in game design or play know how to analyze a game for inherent issues in design. Often even an ignorant person will recognize issues subconsciously even if they cannot explain why. This is true in artwork as well, people know when they like or dislike something even if they cannot voice it in a verbose and clear manner... you can disregard what I say, but it doesn’t make you correct.

Okay, we have had a number of propositions regarding clones as a resource, and I think there may be a solution that allows for the most benefit with minimal adjustments. Make clone generation fill the resource bar up to 3Clone counter no longer resets out of combat or after a target diesClones existing no longer affects resource counterShatter effects and animations remain but no longer kill clonesShatter effects are applied by Mesmer next attack (damage/confusion/interrupt on next attack)The only changes here are application of damage: suicide bombers vs guerilla warfare and how the resource is counted: actively adjusting constantly based on clone existence vs static count of clones generated. The changes proposed would solve Mesmer complaints about not being able to use their shatters in many game situations, and unlink the application of shatters from the clones which makes it easier for enemy players to respond. Shatter effect could have a brief delay before the shatter effect happens, that way the animation of clones mosh pit chest bumping and screaming acts to telegraph the damage of the skill (Tells the enemy to use a defensive or dodge soon). This should function to remove most of the issues with increased variance of the shatters as well, normalizing their damage and allowing them to be tuned more effectively. Reliability of skills increased, great for both the Mesmer player and their opponent. Lower variance in effect of skill application, better for the Mesmer and easier to adjust for developers if something is performing better than expected. Now I suggest not adjusting any numbers until after seeing if the changes make Mesmer too strong in any area because this is a functional change and requires a bit of adjustment for both Mesmer players and their opponents. The benefits gained in being able to adjust Mesmers meaningfully and have impact with those changes for the betterment of both PvE and PvP should be improved dramatically by this change. Presently, I would like to invite everyone on these forums to discuss this proposition, and contemplate how it would allow you to play Mesmer in functionally the same way as you do now, or likewise how you could now play against one as you can clearly see when they have used a shatter (though they may need to add a pop of color around the shatter animations to represent which shatter was just used and thus what attack or defense is coming or active). Do you think such changes could be implemented?How would it affect Chrono or Mirage?Does it weaken Mesmer as more is telegraphed?Does it make their damage application too consistent?Does it make clone generation more powerful or less so?Would the clone shatter animations be a big enough visual indicator of when to use defenses against the Mesmer?Is this something both Mesmer and non Mesmer players would be interested in seeing implemented?

@Enokitake.1742 Well said. The original poster’s entire premise does highlight why Mesmer gets called to nerf so often and how the devs end up erroneously targeting skills or traits for “fixing”. Much of the community thinks you need to build specifically to beat Mesmer, but really it is just a learning how the profession plays, and using your skills when you need to and not just spamming them on cooldown.

This was proposed when the game was still in beta and it was asserted that clone complaints were going to lead to repeated balance issues with Mesmer. The idea is not dumb, but it doesn’t resolve issues that players have when playing Mesmer in situations where enemies die faster than clones can be produced to power attacks, or in which the AoE is so great and dense as to kill them as they spawn. Worse yet, it fails to resolve the issues that non Mesmer players have with being able to interact with the Mesmer directly, leading to the same frustrations but without the existing counterplay. Clones as a resource need to be adjusted, either remove them as a resource, or make them non destroyable and adjust numbers to compensate for their improved reliability.

Sounds like a problem with clones rather than stealth. Clones are not even deceiving to anyone who knows any of the various tells that separate the Mesmer from them. It requires some learning and some awareness of when you have lost target. Or you can just roll massive AoE and spam it on the clones and kill them all... you know, like every other profession has access to. Reworking clones to be immune to damage and do none themselves but also not have a health bar would be optimal, damage could all be moved to the Mesmer themself instead. Only major change needed would be that of making target break skills for Mesmer make their health bar disappear for a couple seconds.

This contrarian thinking is not productive. You choose to ignore the views of someone new who notes the same things that others have noted, who asks for clarity, and when presented you simply deny the situation completely. Also, you misuse the term overperform, which would indicate that Mesmer has better representation and is numerically superior to other professions in most or all situations. The inverse of your first statement here would simply be: "No, the class shouldn't be allowed to underperform because it does excel at some situations." This is the point most Mesmer tend to make actually, because the profession as a whole is treated as doing too much of everything only because it seems that way in a duel against a lesser skilled opponent. Good players using a strong build always provide a good challenge to me as a Mesmer, even in duels... you may say that it sounds like a l2p issue if someone is having issues dueling a Mesmer. Alternatively, as I have continually pointed out in this and other threads... Mesmer needs their balanced shifted away from a reliance on a destroyable resource so that they can be balanced around reliable, consistent sources of damage, utility, and defense tools. In short, if the elements of Mesmer resources were reliable, as is the case for every other profession, then the balance you and I both desire could be achieved through simple numbers tuning.

It's really fine to be honest, yes, some open world spec became slightly unplayable, but you can play other spec and it's fine. It is not fine in modes other than PvE... that surely indicates a problem with the design. Even in PvE, supportive and many offensive builds are performing even worse than they were, and that is in optimal conditions. Any suboptimal condition is resulting in far worse representation and performance. Further even, in WvW and PvP, Chrono is now performing even worse than before because it has less instant tools to deal with many situations. Thus the only mode of play left to Chrono is to always be behind or with others, to only perform as well or worse than any of them, while also always performing worse in solo situations. That does not seem fine... now, this is not to say that Chrono and every Mesmer variant could not be improved by adjusting some core functionality inherent to all Mesmer, in fact that would be optimal. In fact, Chrono as it is now may well illustrate exactly what really needs to happen so that all Mesmer can be balanced appropriately. In short, the design issue revolves around the core functionality of illusions (clones and phantasms), resulting in variance in performance unlike that of other professions and thus subject to issues that become exacerbated when numeric tuning is employed (really what the most recent changes to Chrono did).

Mesmer has EVER been balanced around the idea of higher variance due to their resource being both ONLY in combat AND destroyable. No other profession is punished by their own resource so heavily, No other? Necromancers want a word with you. OP...if you haven't been playing for 6 years....why are you complaining about mesmer nerfs? You know nothing about the class anymore. Necromancer’s life force bar can be destroyed before it even gets to be used? Interesting, I was pretty sure there is opportunity to use it before it gets destroyed. Can AoE keep a Necromancer from being able to even use their resource at all? If you consistently have your resource "destroyed before you can use it at all" then you're just a bad mesmer. In other words: "l2p issue"....or maybe you're just trying to draw a purely hypothetical situation in order to try and have any point at all.Our point of contestation is that of situational viability. In a duel or small scale, pulling off max clone shatters is not usually an issue, it is when Zergs and group combat takes place and AoE can blanket an area that keeps a Mesmer from functioning at even half capacity that an issue is revealed. Either way, the solution to beating a Mesmer is keeping enough hard hitting AoE down at all times, and that means beating one usually revolves around denial of resource, as opposed to actually outplaying their skills through effective timing of defensive skills. If you fail to admit that mesmer was simply too strong for quite some time without being touched by patches then you're lying to yourself as much as you're lying to the others. Some aspects might have been over-nerfed, but claiming that you (as a class) are being consistently bullied with nerfs is pretty laughable. I am saying that the majority of players fail to see WHY a Mesmer was too strong in so many situations. In fact, that was exactly why they did not hit them with nerfs in the way that many have desired, because the general populace does not understand that Mesmer has to have higher maximum output potential because their resource and damage can be destroyed. The result is that because Mesmer clones can be killed, shatters must apply more than what the devs might allot for a skill usually, because a large portion of the time the shatter may not even land (because clones are killed, and not because of normal damage prevention methods). When one steps away from something for awhile, when they come back their new perspective may allow them to see th8ngs that others who have been immersed the entire time may miss completely. Justifying the issues of Mesmer by indicating inferiority of skill is poor taste and represents a lack of strong argument. The problem sources from the core functionality of Mesmers’ illusions (clones and phantasms), and not from numbers tuning, change those to be consistent with other profession resources and damage sources (not separate stats and failing to activate sigil sand runes) then numbers tuning can commence.

I would love to see these changes getting into the game sooner rather than later, simply because waiting on changes is both tiresome and leads to trying to fit even more into that balance patch rather than pumping out fixes more frequently and with greater ability to see how small changes will impact the game.

MoD isn't just about interrupting though, it's about stopping the enemy from using skills for a short duration (daze). Disrupting player skill sequences is often enough to force an enemy to completely change their tactics or try to reset for another chance.

On the surface, the amount of work seems pretty extensive, but actually it is mostly about copy and pasting lines of code, checking objects and containers to make sure they apply from the right sources after a change. Adjusting and reworking the biggest issue with Mesmer since inception, and the biggest cause for all the nerfs to the profession throughout the years seems like a logical approach. That said, the workload may well exceed that of the current staff, but without knowing the size of their team it really is difficult to assess that at all. Thanks praqtos, we may not always agree on things, but it is nice to see that at least in some things we can see eye to eye.