Daniel Handler.4816

Read the OP/follow up by other posters, and not just the title. D/D thief is already viable. Reaper and core necro were the ones referred to. And corruption capability is not too nuanced for a numbers/trait shift. The trait Harbinger Shroud exists for that purpose. Purely numbers you could reduce its corruptions to 1 or 0, and increase its damage. You don't need to nerf profession mechanics, not anymore. There is a difference between no more tradeoffs, and no tradeoffs. I have no problem with how elusive mind was nerfed. I have a huge problem with the way scrapper was shipped without impact savant working with condi damage. And with Chrono being a tangled mess of technology. There are 27 specializations. If everyone is OP purely because of numbers vs general base stats you can adjust those. Then you can start altering/removing traits. If its because of profession mechanics then you might as well quit the game. The time it would take them to rework 20+ specs rather than buffing one is years.

Just because Scourge dropped out of the meta doesn't make core/reaper better. that’s the thing. we don’t need nothing to get better - everything is already too kitten powerfulwe need the OP specs such as scourge/holo/etc to be nerfed so the others can be played as well i mean... if everything gets nerfed the unchanged ones will be good :D If everything is too powerful, then nothing is. You mean most things. In which case there are 27 specs. You might as well quit the game now if you think they will ever get around to nerfing the vast majority just so some can shine. Especially when each expansion adds 9 more. They have a limited amount of time. Let's make an event where all skills and autoattacks deal 999999 damage. How about a raid where if you get hit by anything you auto-die? I'm sure those would go over great /sThe idea of "if everything is OP, nothing is" is completely misguided and is based on laziness or ineptitude on some level rather than creating compelling gameplay. Something can "feel" overpowered or potent while not being overpowered. Kill Shot, Rapid Fire, and Executioner's Scythe - high-impact visceral skills with cool animations that can change a fight - are great examples (Remember that RF wasn't OP before Soulbeast). The problem is the really broken stuff in GW2 is the subtle stuff. It's things like Mirage Cloak that literally don't even have animations, boon application giving too much free stats, coefficients that are too high, lower cooldowns that can't be punished, and damage resistance that make punishing in general overly-difficult that have been running rampant since even HoT. The PoF stuff in particular is particularly egregious. And you can't buff core to compete since elites can use those same core traitlines. And if you base everything around the base class mechanics (F1-F5), you end up with overloaded/easy core builds that win by pressing only one or two buttons, and that's not conducive to creating compelling gameplay, either. Tradeoffs were always the answer. It's how the core game was made, and how the elite specs should have been made. Why this wasn't realized earlier is why so few people have faith in this company. This is like... the bare minimum needed to sustain a playerbase for an RPG.So you just read the title, nothing else? This topic is not that there shouldn't be tradeoffs. But that tradeoffs should come from numbers and trait changes before they make technological changes they can't undo. Also, given they gave core engineer f5 and core revenant an f2 they can address core without touching the elite specs. The lack of faith is they spend time on reworks that break and aren't fixed when they could be making countless small changes. If everything is OP how about spending one development cycle adjusting numbers. Instead of several because they wasted work days reworking things.

not really, in pve if you are mirage you play axe, so you have axe 3, axe2 ( you can cloak during it and it doesnt get affected by slows ), then you have 3 stacks of jaunt and lower cd on it. its not bad at all in pve. in fact, during a raid boss I evaded 150 times, compared to the next person with 20. I think you misunderstand their point if you are responding with take this weapon, this elite, and play condi. Especially when you bring up raids which have dedicated supports. I get what you mean, but mirage, in pve has no place as a power. its just under other specs, thats why its played as a condi. If you use bad build and complain its bad, then its on you. Axe 2 and Axe 3 covers mirage cloak weakness somewhat. That is a terrible argument. If not taking axe is using a bad build they shouldn't have put ambushes on seven weapons. And demeaning people who don't give up an elite to take jaunt is ridiculous. How many other professions, even in raids, give up their core elites? Not to mention not everything in PvE is a raid. You might as well say Chrono and Reaper should lose rewinder and deathly chill since they are obviously power specs. If you have to take axe and jaunt to cover the weakness "somewhat" then it is a massive drawback. yes it is, as It should be, nothing should be given freely right?also not saying other weapons are bad, just bad for mirage, and PvE in specific.for example in Open world, there isnt much aoe that needs to be dodged so there it doesnt matter all that much, in fractal/raids you play power/support chrono or cmirage. chrono has normal dodge, and cmirage takes axe.I do think that every weapon set should have its use, just not for everything, its like making power build with condi weapons and wondering why the damage isnt so good.I have no idea what you are arguing at this point. Whether you want mirage to be nerfed further or not. But you clearly don't understand what @Hyper Cutter.9376 meant by massive drawback. Every weapon set having a use in every situation has nothing to do their point. A Scrapper can take any power weapon, and soonish any condi weapon, to completely cover their weakness. They can take any elite. Bringing back this discussion to Chrono. The dependency on slow needs to be addressed. Yes people should be traiting for slow on a power build. But when they can't maintain dps even when playing a good build outside of raids it is a problem.

Yeah, similar to how necromancer is a major profession, but we don't see as many of them on the front lines. I find it hard to believe the "rank and file" doesn't know about these professions, when interacting with groups from those regions quite heavily now in joint operations against Kralkatorrik. I wouldn't take NPC's as being representative of actual division of professions in a group. For example, in the minis we have various Seraph soldiers, like Mages, Archers, recruits, Juggernauts, heavy guards, medics. Ingame, we see, the recruits (the scale armor) and sometimes the "heavy guard" (various forms of CM dungeon armor, mixed with scale or human culture to be officers or sergeants). I could see people thinking that, until the white mantle bits of Season 3. Minis are toys. They are no more proportional than stuffed animals are of fauna. No more descriptive than a name and a visual. For example all a Seraph mage toy displays is there exists at least one Seraph who is a light armored spellcaster. White Mantle are a subset of a single race and post season 3 appear to have made no dent in the diversity of the Orders. In addition the Pact does not make up all combatants. A non-pact member is much more likely to be aware that guardians can serve on the front-line than mesmers.

not really, in pve if you are mirage you play axe, so you have axe 3, axe2 ( you can cloak during it and it doesnt get affected by slows ), then you have 3 stacks of jaunt and lower cd on it. its not bad at all in pve. in fact, during a raid boss I evaded 150 times, compared to the next person with 20. I think you misunderstand their point if you are responding with take this weapon, this elite, and play condi. Especially when you bring up raids which have dedicated supports. I get what you mean, but mirage, in pve has no place as a power. its just under other specs, thats why its played as a condi. If you use bad build and complain its bad, then its on you. Axe 2 and Axe 3 covers mirage cloak weakness somewhat.That is a terrible argument. If not taking axe is using a bad build they shouldn't have put ambushes on seven weapons. And demeaning people who don't give up an elite to take jaunt is ridiculous. How many other professions, even in raids, give up their core elites? Not to mention not everything in PvE is a raid. You might as well say Chrono and Reaper should lose rewinder and deathly chill since they are obviously power specs. If you have to take axe and jaunt to cover the weakness "somewhat" then it is a massive drawback.

Soulbeast cannot meld and use the pet simultaneously. Rezzing AI slightly faster is not OP. At worst numbers can be tuned. Altering the mechanic itself is overkill that will only backfire.

not really, in pve if you are mirage you play axe, so you have axe 3, axe2 ( you can cloak during it and it doesnt get affected by slows ), then you have 3 stacks of jaunt and lower cd on it. its not bad at all in pve. in fact, during a raid boss I evaded 150 times, compared to the next person with 20. I think you misunderstand their point if you are responding with take this weapon, this elite, and play condi. Especially when you bring up raids which have dedicated supports.

It started at the very start of the video for me. "Recent" to me is like, within a few years. Not "since GW1" as 250+ years have passed. IIRC, a Gw1 nightfall hero started the Weaver trend post nightfall. Vigil, Priory, Whispers, and Lionguard all show a variety of types of soldier. The White mantle showcased a huge variation of troop professions. Mesmers are a "scholar" class, but have never been shown or implied to not be completely and totally capable of combat, in GW1 or GW2. This is the first time I've ever seen people imply Mesmers are not meant for combat. I'm frankly surprised, given how major a role the White mantle mesmers play in their operations, teleporting troops into the center of DR, aiding and harassing foes alongside their fellow soldiers, etc. The mainland did not maintain continous contact with Elona/Cantha/parts of Maguuma. The traditions that became Guardian passed over to the general populace, but the concept of other spellcasters in the frontline did not. And now that we have reunited with Elona and Maguuma "elite specialisation" does not imply the rank and file are aware of it. Mesmers are completely and totally capable of combat. And yet they do not have equal representation in the Orders in combat divisions, even amongst spellcasters. The White Mantle is one faction of one race. It is completely understandable how OP or people in game might think mesmers weren't meant for combat.

Just because Scourge dropped out of the meta doesn't make core/reaper better. that’s the thing. we don’t need nothing to get better - everything is already too kitten powerfulwe need the OP specs such as scourge/holo/etc to be nerfed so the others can be played as well i mean... if everything gets nerfed the unchanged ones will be good :DIf everything is too powerful, then nothing is. You mean most things. In which case there are 27 specs. You might as well quit the game now if you think they will ever get around to nerfing the vast majority just so some can shine. Especially when each expansion adds 9 more. They have a limited amount of time.

I'm fine with this, but just for closure: I'm aware of its interaction with chill. The point I am trying to make, however, is that even that interaction is vastly outweighed by the return in damage and sustainability on condition-oriented builds. I don't understand your assertion that it is no different from people requesting Daredevil have an endurance nerf, if you can explain what you meant by that I'd appreciate it. If you were implying that I thought Mirage cloak as it stands should be gutted, that is not my opinion. I just think its functionality of "you can dodge while stunned" should be moved to Elusive Mind (and the exhaustion from EM removed or shaved down significantly) to force mirage players to choose between having all of the condi dot damage given by IH also a more brittle stun reaction behavior, and having that transcendent priority dodge in exchange for a damage loss. And you're right. I only care about PVP, and to a smaller extent WvW, so I am focused on how class interactions with mirage should be balanced. of course, if a solution can be reached with a skill split, fair enough. feel free to reply to this or not. The topic is about Chrono ofc. If a Daredevil not being able to move 1200 feet with swipe matters, then so does a Mirage not being able to move 300-600 with 1-2 dodges. If you want to nerf ambushes so their damage is comparable to thief dodges that is one thing. But your current idea is like if Daredevil only got an extra dodge if they took unhindered combatant. Because apparently your dodge has to do non-damage and give you exhaustion to be balanced. In PvP no one is telling you to dodge with a group of allies and yelling at you if you don't. And you aren't being bombed with cripple and torment from more than 5 scourges who have shades larger than you can move out of with a single cloak. And regardless of game mode conditions don't stop ticking.

Just because Scourge dropped out of the meta doesn't make core/reaper better.

Not an innate -propensity. The concept is just shoved in their faces. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lyssa is one of six gods worshipped by many humans. And she is explicitly associated with illusions and beauty. (and also water but that isn't shown much). She has her own sector and shrine in their capital city, her https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lyssa%27s_Reliquary is full of mesmer-esque phenomena, and her scriptures seem to hint humans believed she invented mesmer magic. As for mesmer reputation. The full extent of their abilities is kept under wraps by the mesmer collective. It is not in their interest to kill openly. Especially when many are members of nobility. Strictly speaking, there's a human god for every magical school, although elementalists were split among four (arguably five in GW2, then maybe four again after Balthazar's fall from grace) and guardians were probably split between Dwayna and Balthazar. Trying to recall now if there's been any specific mention of humans being mesmer-heavy. I think the observation has been made that Orr was fairly mesmer-heavy, and out-of-game sources have indicated that the Shining Blade is mesmer-heavy.There is a god for every magic school. But that discrete characterization doesn't seem to exist within non-human religion and philosophy. The Mind domain/Dream and Raven might be mesmer-esque, but they don't call out illusion magic specifically, abound with purple/magenta, etc. The eternal alchemy is distinguished by static/dynamic/synergistic. And the Charr only seem to care for elementalist or drudic (Olmakhan) magic, if they do at all.

Mirage and Weaver are not "recent inventions" Those types of magic use were simply unknown to Kryta, localized to the crystal desert and Elona. Chronomancer/Reaper we have less information of, but could perhaps be newer styles. Also "The PC cannot" is perhaps not a very good method of example of what's perhaps typical or possible for mid level spellcasters to do. We are completely limited by gameplay mechanics. It's why for example, we can see an NPC necromancer summon five flesh golems at once, while the PC can only summon a single one. Or Trahearne summoning a small force of varied necromancer minions, while my Minion master necromancer in gameplay can only have one of a type of undead minion, and no more then one outside jagged horrors and the small rat-like minion. As exampled, Kasmeer can teleport herself over gaps, while the PC mesmer can't actually teleport to someplace they cannot physically walk to due to gameplay mechanics. edit: I didn't watch the video, because it's 30ish minutes long. A rather long example video to post up. It appears to just be a complete playthrough of that particular instance, so you could've said "As shown by Jennah in X instance." Also, Jennah is, as far as we know, the single most powerful mesmer in Tyria at the moment. So she's leagues ahead of anybody else and isn't a good example of what mesmers can do in combat, and almost all aren't even going to be able to approach her level. The video is linked to start at the moment in question... Back to the topic mirage and weaver did not exist when we visited Elona in gw1. Hence "relatively recent". And regardless of the PCs abilities the associations remain the same. Mesmers are scholars not soldiers. When you see better profession distribution in the Vigil, or even among the combat division of the Priory, it will be a sign things have changed further. The top tier is clearly meant for combat but grunts need to display that more for perceptions in and out of game to change.

There are eight different traits from six traitlines that can provide 20% or more CD reduction to a weapon. This is one trait that can affect ALL weapons. It is designed to supplement existing traits. Or allow you to get CD reduction without having to waste a trait/traitline. For example. Descent into madness (chaos storm on heal) can be combined with chaotic dampening and chaotic interruption to greatly reduce a CD on staff/trident. Or you can take chaotic transference or auspicious anguish and still get 15% to 50% reduction. As for WvW none of the CCs you just listed are long ranges aoe. And the meta shifts. Supporting the cc bot playstyle chrono had is the first step.

It has been noted by devs that the SUPER top tier mesmers do have mind control abilities. They just never use it so nobody can know about it, or make a counter. Mesmers creating illusions for a single person is very high level and difficult. Being able to portal without being there has been done before. In heart of thorns we saw Kasmeer creating portals down a cliff for the team, or making portals on the far side/teleporting across gaps. Honestly, mesmers are pretty scary as is. But Jennah is great with people and PR, and thus is loved. She is not a frontline fighter, she is the queen. I believe she actually brings that up once or twice in the game itself. Her abilities people see tend to be illusions or defensive shields, and only once do I recall her actually being offensive with her abilities, and that is when the White mantle directly assaulted DR and the traitor ministers started trying to kill the loyal ones. I know she can do that... That's why I posted a clip of her doing that. The point is the PC cannot. And mirage and chronomancer are relatively recent inventions. As are weaver and reaper. The perception of soldier vs scholar is not just mechanical. But it should shift when people see non top tier scholars behaving like front liners.

I wish they told us more. We truly don't if they want to revisit them but can't because of technological limitations or they think they are fine.

You are thinking of 3.5. In 5e they get a save each turn. Hp can protect them from dying instantly. And psychic damage can be resisted. These are best seen in their version of a revenant which can fail the save for the spells entire duration and even with perfect damage rolls will not die. That being said you are correct that some Mesmer can instantly kill people. Like Jennah has shown.

@"Tremor.7481" This is a taste of mesmer combat if it weren't a secret. And people in PvP think mesmer has no counterplay. Imagine if they could do that. Had illusions that were only visible to the target. And could teleport people into places without visiting them first. And how terrified people would be of Jennah if it was widespread knowledge. Also remember that elite specs are relatively recent inventions.

Not an innate propensity. The concept is just shoved in their faces. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lyssa is one of six gods worshipped by many humans. And she is explicitly associated with illusions and beauty. (and also water but that isn't shown much). She has her own sector and shrine in their capital city, her https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lyssa%27s_Reliquary is full of mesmer-esque phenomena, and her scriptures seem to hint humans believed she invented mesmer magic. As for mesmer reputation. The full extent of their abilities is kept under wraps by the mesmer collective. It is not in their interest to kill openly. Especially when many are members of nobility.

If the skill is meh damage and too immobile then don't use it and have the benefit go to another skill. When you are using sw+f/sw+sh in WvW the clone is suppose to die immediately anyway because you are instantly shattering it to proc CS now that we don't have IP. It is not meant to be a PvP/PvE trait. In WvW you are still a cc bot. Instead of interrupting to immobilize you are to hard cc or block more often. I suggested alacrity on the first balance thread feedback. Mesmer doesn't benefit at all from 5sec cd on one skill since mesmer relies heavily on combos.Of course ANerf didn't listen because mesmer mains aren't truthworthy. It was included among WvW centered traits in a dev post so I believe it is geared towards builds where you are constantly using focus or shield to interrupt enemies and not many of the other weapon skills. Combined with mantra of distraction and gravity well you can consistently reduce the cooldown on those skills. This works well with the changes to delayed reactions and lost time. And is probably the reason why chaotic interruption and lost time have ICDs. Otherwise you could instantly gain 15 seconds of alacrity and possibly reset temporal curtain. Chrono is dead, so shield is dead.Focus is trash, phantasm damage is pathetic and focus 4 pull takes too long.The fact that CI reduces the cd of a random weapon skill doesn't help either. Again, it was listed as an upcoming wvw centered change. One of the main builds for mesmer in that mode was sword/focus + sword/shield with chaotic interruption and trying to interrupt the enemy. The CI reduction is not random when you only have one weapon skill on cooldown. You may not like to play that game mode, especially with Chrono's lack of IP but that doesn't change their intent. You really think it's healthy to use only 1 weapon skill because of trait synergy ?I mean talking about gameplay it's even worst than to be a veil bot. They do And even if you aren't using one weapon skill its also useful for your block or blurred frenzy to have its cooldown reduced. Even for illusionary leap given we don't have illusionary persona. The only sw+f/sw+sh skill you don't want this trait to proc on is phantasmal warden. And why are you even using warden in a zerg when it's damage is severely reduced by its functionality. immagine using grandmaster trait, procing it. and in return almost getting reset on ability that summons ilusion. the fact that you had to list it as something "worth" doing shows how bad this trait is.the abilities that have impact and matter have long cooldown, ( pistol 4 and 5 ) curtains, shield 5. so getting 5s reset means jack kitten, getting reset on other abilities is almost useless, nobody gonna use this trait, another trait down the drain of unusability Pistol already has a trait to reduce it's cooldown on interrupt. This trait is perfectly fine for reducing the cooldown on sword 3, focus 4, or shield 4/5. It does not matter to them whether it is almost useless on other skills because it is intended for WvW cc bots, and you can control which skill is affected by planning ahead. meh, just think realistically about this trait, if you use it to recharge CC ability, like pistol 5 or shield 5 or curtain, you will have to interrupt enemy 4-5 times, assuming it lands perfectly and lines up with cooldowns.you have to interrupt 4-5 times for a GRANDMASTER to give you 1 extra ability.to do it you also give up every other ability. yikes PS if they wanted it to work in a way you say they wanted it to work they could do some brainstorming and make it unique.example ! -> interrupting enemy recharges ability that you used to interrupt oponent. X cooldownadd a bonus of getting some boons/condi and its done.Chrono has alacrity. Shield 5 can reduce its own cooldown 1-2 times. Pistol skills have duelist discipline. The rest have 20% off when traited. This trait works with that existing framework. Not replaces it. From the WvW changes thread they made This goal is perfectly fine. You can give 12.5%-100% reduce recharge if you aren't going for a WvW build. And on a WvW build you can reliably get your shield or focus to have cc up every time you weapon swap.

You could indeed argue that a benefit replaces some deficit on an elite, however i would say this is not favorable to the case you are trying to make because then i have to ask the question.What about the specs who still don't lose anything and only gain benefits (mirage / soul beast) the the situation is still the same, its still not held to the current balance standards. Even if another class loses something only to have something else to replace it how is it fair when a spec doesn't lose anything and still gains a bonus benefit? Mirage loses some or all of their ability to move while dodging depending on conditions. And soulbeast loses an AI that can attack separately/at range. Just because they are activated abilities like tempest overloads does not mean they lose nothing. Not everything has to be a permanent stat change. And trade offs do not have to cripple a profession, just alter its playstyle. Sorry but mirage dodging is not a trade off by anets standards it seems and to be real with you i dont even think its a valid argument argument as most classes 7 of the other 9, 8 of the other 9 if thief does not run the dare devil trait have no option to dodge at all while under say immobilize Mirage still can. If daredevil does not run that dodge it still has one extra bar of endurance and the two other dodge traits that add damage. If you want to give mirage an extra bar of endurance you are welcome to remove the dodging while immbolized. And they still loss range on their f1 what did you give up from your shatters on mirage? Why should you get a 3rd bar of endurance or did you also forget the fact that doding also does not interrupt your actions which is can be seen as the same as having a 3rd bar if you want to count effect for effect. Aruging down these small lines of extras is pointless because you are still down 1 when it comes to the profession skill bar. It does not matter what other aspect you look at you are still down one. Other profession can dodge perfectly fine under under the effects of cripple and chill. And mirage, while able to dodge while immbolized or cced is still not moving. Yes everyone can dodge just fine under cripple and chill. Mirage can also dodge just fine under cripple and chill. Even if you do not move as far you still evade attacks just fine. Other professions cannot dodge while immobilized or cc'ed period while mirage can. once again you are still down by 1 no matter how many extras you look at. Whenever the soulbeast melds they are no longer in control of their pet and can't swap those skills. They could already heal and cleanse their pet using pet swap. I don't see the problem. Pet swap generally takes much longer and should the pet die before swapping the cd to swap pets is considerably increased. vs a soul beast fuse which suffers no cd penality should the counter play be to kill the pet "not that its already hard to do" In short there is a punishment if the pet should die before you swap it. There is not one for reviving it by fusing. the only thing ill give you in regards to soul beast is that its true once fused they no longer have a Pet AI which can be seen as some what of trade off. As i said many times before i personally think thats not enough weight of a trade off but you are free to your own opinon (this is the end of this conversation regarding soul beast ) Yes its called using the core profession. You dont take an elite to not use the trade off and benefits if you dont want the benefit and the trade off then you take the core aspect of the class. This is common sense. No person who plays with any kind of mind set takes tempest and does not use the overloads or takes scourge and does not use the shade skills. There was 0 point to you making this statement. Sadly this is not anets standard and to ignore the facts of having something that changes or effects the "f skills" when you take an elite is without question no the standard. By anets standard which has been forced on nearly every other elite spec its only fair to say that those who are currently not up to this standard can be held accountable and should be easily subject to the change to that standard what ever the decided to do. ITs why so many people are speculating mirage changes to the shatters sooner or later. Because its not in line with the standard of nearly every other elite spec.' Nearly every other spec? Scrapper, Holosmith, Tempest, Daredevil, Mirage, Druid, and Soulbeast have little or no change to their f-skills. Instead they have stat nerfs or activated drawbacks depending on how constant the benefit is. Look above ^ i listed them all out a few post agoEveryone has something that changes the their F skill bar or the majority. and in almost all these cases you "lose something" from the base in exchange for what the new elite gains.Scrapper and holo lose their options to have a selectable elite tool belt skill That is one skill out of five. Guardian and others keep none.I think ive covered that i think this is too light of a trade off (that should have been the end of this particular subject) ??? With less range, on a class that has roughly 11k hp, that does not have boons to block attacks, or stability. Go play wvw.???Thats far enough this getting is too off topic and slightly more frustrating than im willing to deal.Ive read the rest of your responses and it seems that you just dont understand anets concept of "trade offs"The idea is that something on the profession bar is lost or changes a a trade with elite specs. The amount of change varies from profession to profession based on the theme of that profession. In some cases (scourge) everything changes where in other cases (scrapper) not that much changes. How ever for every profession there is some sort of change. In the event of core mesmer to mirage looking at the shatters as of today 10/17/2019 there is 0 difference between the f1, f2, f3, and f4. Before or after they are used. They are the same. There is no trade off regardless of how big or small you look. There is not even a stat change, This means it is not in line with the standards of trade offs. You are going way over the top getting way to passive aggressive, picking minor points that are not even part of the original subject blaming every other profession which have perfect examples of trade offs and in some cases hardly viable classes while ignoring the facts bluntly. In short for every +1 Mirage has (not even looking at the profession f skill bar yet) every other elite also has a + 1 for every -1 Mirage has every other elite also has a -1 in some way is not alone and its starting to feel like you are pretending it is. Once you look at the profession (f skill bar) bar only then do you see that there are 0% changes between core and mirage. I dont know how else to explain this to you. Every other profession has a change regardless of how big or small it is or how well weighted it is there is "a change." That is where anet places the "self inflicted trade off and in some cases extra benefits along with them." Talking about tempest and scrappers not having to use their f skills thus not having a negative like its the common norm that people do in a realistic combat situations is ignorance. Yet i bet if anyone said the same about chrono or mirage you would call them out on it without mercy on how wrong they are and how essential it is for them to do such. Its baffling. I wont converse with you any further, its off topic, its frustrating, and you are not speaking with logic and possibly with a great lack of knowledge for the other professions and their elites and how people commonly play them. TLDR: Im done. Should you chose to reply off topic of chrono trade offs wont respond :) if you dont feel like having discusion then dont start it? you are the one that brought " nerf mirage OP " into "chrono is garbage fix it " conversation.Never said the word nerf or OP in my original post dont come here telling lies. you cant speak truthfully o respectfully dont speak to me at all. But you did say mirage should have its f skills changed. And do you truly believe shatter changes to mirage will not be a nerf in any capacity? So is it really a lie? If people kept on topic to chrono having terrible quality of life and they need a better tradeoff that is still trade off but doesn't make people miserable that would be great. hacing disort always last 2,5s instead of 1s-4s depending on clones is a tradeoff, ( nerf to condi buff to power ).removing disort is just a nerf, not a tradeoff.But is it a midway one? The one that comes up a lot is Chrono should have two max illusions but retain IP. But I don't think they have the technology to do that. Maybe just return IP to chrono and work on traits and numerical changes.

You could indeed argue that a benefit replaces some deficit on an elite, however i would say this is not favorable to the case you are trying to make because then i have to ask the question.What about the specs who still don't lose anything and only gain benefits (mirage / soul beast) the the situation is still the same, its still not held to the current balance standards. Even if another class loses something only to have something else to replace it how is it fair when a spec doesn't lose anything and still gains a bonus benefit? Mirage loses some or all of their ability to move while dodging depending on conditions. And soulbeast loses an AI that can attack separately/at range. Just because they are activated abilities like tempest overloads does not mean they lose nothing. Not everything has to be a permanent stat change. And trade offs do not have to cripple a profession, just alter its playstyle. Sorry but mirage dodging is not a trade off by anets standards it seems and to be real with you i dont even think its a valid argument argument as most classes 7 of the other 9, 8 of the other 9 if thief does not run the dare devil trait have no option to dodge at all while under say immobilize Mirage still can. If daredevil does not run that dodge it still has one extra bar of endurance and the two other dodge traits that add damage. If you want to give mirage an extra bar of endurance you are welcome to remove the dodging while immbolized. And they still loss range on their f1 what did you give up from your shatters on mirage? Why should you get a 3rd bar of endurance or did you also forget the fact that doding also does not interrupt your actions which is can be seen as the same as having a 3rd bar if you want to count effect for effect. Aruging down these small lines of extras is pointless because you are still down 1 when it comes to the profession skill bar. It does not matter what other aspect you look at you are still down one. Other profession can dodge perfectly fine under under the effects of cripple and chill. And mirage, while able to dodge while immbolized or cced is still not moving. Yes everyone can dodge just fine under cripple and chill. Mirage can also dodge just fine under cripple and chill. Even if you do not move as far you still evade attacks just fine. Other professions cannot dodge while immobilized or cc'ed period while mirage can. once again you are still down by 1 no matter how many extras you look at. Whenever the soulbeast melds they are no longer in control of their pet and can't swap those skills. They could already heal and cleanse their pet using pet swap. I don't see the problem. Pet swap generally takes much longer and should the pet die before swapping the cd to swap pets is considerably increased. vs a soul beast fuse which suffers no cd penality should the counter play be to kill the pet "not that its already hard to do" In short there is a punishment if the pet should die before you swap it. There is not one for reviving it by fusing. the only thing ill give you in regards to soul beast is that its true once fused they no longer have a Pet AI which can be seen as some what of trade off. As i said many times before i personally think thats not enough weight of a trade off but you are free to your own opinon (this is the end of this conversation regarding soul beast ) Yes its called using the core profession. You dont take an elite to not use the trade off and benefits if you dont want the benefit and the trade off then you take the core aspect of the class. This is common sense. No person who plays with any kind of mind set takes tempest and does not use the overloads or takes scourge and does not use the shade skills. There was 0 point to you making this statement. Sadly this is not anets standard and to ignore the facts of having something that changes or effects the "f skills" when you take an elite is without question no the standard. By anets standard which has been forced on nearly every other elite spec its only fair to say that those who are currently not up to this standard can be held accountable and should be easily subject to the change to that standard what ever the decided to do. ITs why so many people are speculating mirage changes to the shatters sooner or later. Because its not in line with the standard of nearly every other elite spec.' Nearly every other spec? Scrapper, Holosmith, Tempest, Daredevil, Mirage, Druid, and Soulbeast have little or no change to their f-skills. Instead they have stat nerfs or activated drawbacks depending on how constant the benefit is. Look above ^ i listed them all out a few post agoEveryone has something that changes the their F skill bar or the majority. and in almost all these cases you "lose something" from the base in exchange for what the new elite gains.Scrapper and holo lose their options to have a selectable elite tool belt skill That is one skill out of five. Guardian and others keep none.I think ive covered that i think this is too light of a trade off (that should have been the end of this particular subject) ??? With less range, on a class that has roughly 11k hp, that does not have boons to block attacks, or stability. Go play wvw.???Thats far enough this getting is too off topic and slightly more frustrating than im willing to deal.Ive read the rest of your responses and it seems that you just dont understand anets concept of "trade offs"The idea is that something on the profession bar is lost or changes a a trade with elite specs. The amount of change varies from profession to profession based on the theme of that profession. In some cases (scourge) everything changes where in other cases (scrapper) not that much changes. How ever for every profession there is some sort of change. In the event of core mesmer to mirage looking at the shatters as of today 10/17/2019 there is 0 difference between the f1, f2, f3, and f4. Before or after they are used. They are the same. There is no trade off regardless of how big or small you look. There is not even a stat change, This means it is not in line with the standards of trade offs. You are going way over the top getting way to passive aggressive, picking minor points that are not even part of the original subject blaming every other profession which have perfect examples of trade offs and in some cases hardly viable classes while ignoring the facts bluntly. In short for every +1 Mirage has (not even looking at the profession f skill bar yet) every other elite also has a + 1 for every -1 Mirage has every other elite also has a -1 in some way is not alone and its starting to feel like you are pretending it is. Once you look at the profession (f skill bar) bar only then do you see that there are 0% changes between core and mirage. I dont know how else to explain this to you. Every other profession has a change regardless of how big or small it is or how well weighted it is there is "a change." That is where anet places the "self inflicted trade off and in some cases extra benefits along with them." Talking about tempest and scrappers not having to use their f skills thus not having a negative like its the common norm that people do in a realistic combat situations is ignorance. Yet i bet if anyone said the same about chrono or mirage you would call them out on it without mercy on how wrong they are and how essential it is for them to do such. Its baffling. I wont converse with you any further, its off topic, its frustrating, and you are not speaking with logic and possibly with a great lack of knowledge for the other professions and their elites and how people commonly play them. TLDR: Im done. Should you chose to reply off topic of chrono trade offs wont respond :) if you dont feel like having discusion then dont start it? you are the one that brought " nerf mirage OP " into "chrono is garbage fix it " conversation.Never said the word nerf or OP in my original post dont come here telling lies. you cant speak truthfully o respectfully dont speak to me at all.But you did say mirage should have its f skills changed. And do you truly believe shatter changes to mirage will not be a nerf in any capacity? So is it really a lie? If people kept on topic to chrono having terrible quality of life and they need a better tradeoff that is still trade off but doesn't make people miserable that would be great.

You could indeed argue that a benefit replaces some deficit on an elite, however i would say this is not favorable to the case you are trying to make because then i have to ask the question.What about the specs who still don't lose anything and only gain benefits (mirage / soul beast) the the situation is still the same, its still not held to the current balance standards. Even if another class loses something only to have something else to replace it how is it fair when a spec doesn't lose anything and still gains a bonus benefit? Mirage loses some or all of their ability to move while dodging depending on conditions. And soulbeast loses an AI that can attack separately/at range. Just because they are activated abilities like tempest overloads does not mean they lose nothing. Not everything has to be a permanent stat change. And trade offs do not have to cripple a profession, just alter its playstyle. Sorry but mirage dodging is not a trade off by anets standards it seems and to be real with you i dont even think its a valid argument argument as most classes 7 of the other 9, 8 of the other 9 if thief does not run the dare devil trait have no option to dodge at all while under say immobilize Mirage still can. If daredevil does not run that dodge it still has one extra bar of endurance and the two other dodge traits that add damage. If you want to give mirage an extra bar of endurance you are welcome to remove the dodging while immbolized. And they still loss range on their f1 what did you give up from your shatters on mirage? Why should you get a 3rd bar of endurance or did you also forget the fact that doding also does not interrupt your actions which is can be seen as the same as having a 3rd bar if you want to count effect for effect. Aruging down these small lines of extras is pointless because you are still down 1 when it comes to the profession skill bar. It does not matter what other aspect you look at you are still down one. They lost range and then gained unblockable and endurance. They are still down one by your standards. Please stop. Other profession can dodge perfectly fine under under the effects of cripple and chill. And mirage, while able to dodge while immbolized or cced is still not moving. Yes everyone can dodge just fine under cripple and chill. Mirage can also dodge just fine under cripple and chill. Even if you do not move as far you still evade attacks just fine. Other professions cannot dodge while immobilized or cc'ed period while mirage can. once again you are still down by 1 no matter how many extras you look at.What? And if I said even though swipe does not go as far it is just fine? Stop making a double standard. Yes its called using the core profession. You dont take an elite to not use the trade off and benefits if you dont want the benefit and the trade off then you take the core aspect of the class. This is common sense. No person who plays with any kind of mind set takes tempest and does not use the overloads or takes scourge and does not use the shade skills. There was 0 point to you making this statement. And no person with any mindset takes mirage and doesn't dodge? If the tradeoff for overload is that elementalist has to take a different traitline then that can also be the tradeoff for mirage. Sadly this is not anets standard and to ignore the facts of having something that changes or effects the "f skills" when you take an elite is without question no the standard. By anets standard which has been forced on nearly every other elite spec its only fair to say that those who are currently not up to this standard can be held accountable and should be easily subject to the change to that standard what ever the decided to do. ITs why so many people are speculating mirage changes to the shatters sooner or later. Because its not in line with the standard of nearly every other elite spec.' Nearly every other spec? Scrapper, Holosmith, Tempest, Daredevil, Mirage, Druid, and Soulbeast have little or no change to their f-skills. Instead they have stat nerfs or activated drawbacks depending on how constant the benefit is. Look above ^ i listed them all out a few post agoEveryone has something that changes the their F skill bar or the majority. and in almost all these cases you "lose something" from the base in exchange for what the new elite gains.Scrapper and holo lose their options to have a selectable elite tool belt skill That is one skill out of five. Guardian and others keep none.I think ive covered that i think this is too light of a trade off (that should have been the end of this particular subject) ??? With less range, on a class that has roughly 11k hp, that does not have boons to block attacks, or stability.:# And mirage dodge is less range on a class that has less toughness than thief. Go play wvw.???Thats far enough this getting is too off topic and slightly more frustrating than im willing to deal.Ive read the rest of your responses and it seems that you just dont understand anets concept of "trade offs"The idea is that something on the profession bar is lost or changes a a trade with elite specs. The amount of change varies from profession to profession based on the theme of that profession. In some cases (scourge) everything changes where in other cases (scrapper) not that much changes. How ever for every profession there is some sort of change. In the event of core mesmer to mirage looking at the shatters as of today 10/17/2019 there is 0 difference between the f1, f2, f3, and f4. Before or after they are used. They are the same. There is no trade off regardless of how big or small you look. There is not even a stat change, This means it is not in line with the standards of trade offs. You are going way over the top getting way to passive aggressive, picking minor points that are not even part of the original subject blaming every other profession which have perfect examples of trade offs and in some cases hardly viable classes while ignoring the facts bluntly. In short for every +1 Mirage has (not even looking at the profession f skill bar yet) every other elite also has a + 1 for every -1 Mirage has every other elite also has a -1 in some way is not alone and its starting to feel like you are pretending it is. Once you look at the profession (f skill bar) bar only then do you see that there are 0% changes between core and mirage. I dont know how else to explain this to you. Every other profession has a change regardless of how big or small it is or how well weighted it is there is "a change." That is where anet places the "self inflicted trade off and in some cases extra benefits along with them." Talking about tempest and scrappers not having to use their f skills thus not having a negative like its the common norm that people do in a realistic combat situations is ignorance. Yet i bet if anyone said the same about chrono or mirage you would call them out on it without mercy on how wrong they are and how essential it is for them to do such. Its baffling. I wont converse with you any further, its off topic, its frustrating, and you are not speaking with logic and possibly with a great lack of knowledge for the other professions and their elites and how people commonly play them. TLDR: Im done. Should you chose to reply off topic of chrono trade offs wont respond :)I'm not blaming other profession. No profession needs more tradeoffs. Stop trying to speak for Anet as what the standard for trade offs are when you are not an employee and mirage is not the only class that keeps most or all its previous f skills. They have never said the change has to come from the f skills. It was you and others that brought other elite specs into this discussion. And I'm not calling professions out. I'm pointing our your argument about every profession getting X is incorrect. Scrapper and tempest tradeoffs are fine. So are mirage and soulbeast. I would be pissed as someone who plays necromancer if scrapper didn't have -180 vitality, since they kept 4/5 f skills. Technically 24/27 when you consider how toolbelt works. You cannot easily remove 180 vit from Chrono when their toughness is already low. So I am also fine with the shatters being changed. The problem is how they were changed. We want to be more like scrapper. Let Chrono just attack to deal with it's tradeoff. Don't destroy its quality of life and force it run slow builds.

If the skill is meh damage and too immobile then don't use it and have the benefit go to another skill. When you are using sw+f/sw+sh in WvW the clone is suppose to die immediately anyway because you are instantly shattering it to proc CS now that we don't have IP. It is not meant to be a PvP/PvE trait. In WvW you are still a cc bot. Instead of interrupting to immobilize you are to hard cc or block more often. I suggested alacrity on the first balance thread feedback. Mesmer doesn't benefit at all from 5sec cd on one skill since mesmer relies heavily on combos.Of course ANerf didn't listen because mesmer mains aren't truthworthy. It was included among WvW centered traits in a dev post so I believe it is geared towards builds where you are constantly using focus or shield to interrupt enemies and not many of the other weapon skills. Combined with mantra of distraction and gravity well you can consistently reduce the cooldown on those skills. This works well with the changes to delayed reactions and lost time. And is probably the reason why chaotic interruption and lost time have ICDs. Otherwise you could instantly gain 15 seconds of alacrity and possibly reset temporal curtain. Chrono is dead, so shield is dead.Focus is trash, phantasm damage is pathetic and focus 4 pull takes too long.The fact that CI reduces the cd of a random weapon skill doesn't help either. Again, it was listed as an upcoming wvw centered change. One of the main builds for mesmer in that mode was sword/focus + sword/shield with chaotic interruption and trying to interrupt the enemy. The CI reduction is not random when you only have one weapon skill on cooldown. You may not like to play that game mode, especially with Chrono's lack of IP but that doesn't change their intent. You really think it's healthy to use only 1 weapon skill because of trait synergy ?I mean talking about gameplay it's even worst than to be a veil bot. They do And even if you aren't using one weapon skill its also useful for your block or blurred frenzy to have its cooldown reduced. Even for illusionary leap given we don't have illusionary persona. The only sw+f/sw+sh skill you don't want this trait to proc on is phantasmal warden. And why are you even using warden in a zerg when it's damage is severely reduced by its functionality. immagine using grandmaster trait, procing it. and in return almost getting reset on ability that summons ilusion. the fact that you had to list it as something "worth" doing shows how bad this trait is.the abilities that have impact and matter have long cooldown, ( pistol 4 and 5 ) curtains, shield 5. so getting 5s reset means jack kitten, getting reset on other abilities is almost useless, nobody gonna use this trait, another trait down the drain of unusabilityPistol already has a trait to reduce it's cooldown on interrupt. This trait is perfectly fine for reducing the cooldown on sword 3, focus 4, or shield 4/5. It does not matter to them whether it is almost useless on other skills because it is intended for WvW cc bots, and you can control which skill is affected by planning ahead.

They mean well. I just don't think they communicate enough with their tech department to see if a change goes wrong how fast it can be repaired.