Ocean.1469

This just screams ignorance on how games are balanced. Popularity contests aren't how you balance a game. There is no way that anet devs have enough time to play every single build to try to meta game varieties of builds to be competitive at the same time. Every single MMO pvp is balanced by buff/nerfing for this reason. If a build starts overperforming, you nerf it. So long as you don't consistently rework things, you end up with a reasonably flat power level across a variety of classes. If Anet had been more diligent in their PVP balancing and been nerfing OP builds before they go multiple seasons overperforming, we might be close to that level. What do you suggest? Buffing classes? Thats just going to generate more OP builds and lower TTK. You are going to run into the Rampage War problem where a rework ends up being OP and needing nerfs later. This game does NOT need a lower TTK. Portal mes is inherently broken on a 3 cap map. You can leave a port at the opposing home and port to it whenever the defender leaves, letting you +1 points with impunity. There is no way to balance it. D/P backstab thief builds on years of buffing to end up with a build that is not fun for most classes to face. Glass cannons get 1-shot and even some classes with vitality (guards) will get downed before they have any time to react. This is not positive gameplay. No, no i'm fine with backstab thief not being top teir. Anet can easily gather metric data that is far more useful than any 'talk to the pros' conversation would ever generate. Damage/game, win%, damage/time in combat, average TTK, distance killed enemy has to ally (team fight metric), ect. If they chose to and how they act upon it is something we can criticize, but talking with some select group of high ranked 'pros' (many of whom manipulated the ranking system to get there) is an awful idea. Metric data hahaha dude that's why we have neoliberalism today. Because governments across the world rely on statistics to "balance" the world we end up having corporations taking over and destroying everything because a statistic only looks at the loudest things and not the truth. Your funny dude Anet have a pvp team being paid to work on this game, if they don't have time to play all the builds or talk to the people that play the game to balance the game a bit better then they must be having some fun google parties going on....

Why don't you ask Helseth next time he does a random stream what happened when the best players got asked about nerfing chronobunker. Then you will have your answer as to why talking to the best players is as useless as anything else and of course that was back when the best players were actually good, unlike now. Beyond that to actually get even vaguely decent balance in this game they would need to redesign the skill/trait system so it is easier to balance one elite without screwing up the other elite and core, but given it takes Anet an age to do anything, that is extremely unlikely. Yeah I can understand this bro they need to work harder at it and keep communicate it is not something which can be done in 5 minutes. I get what you are saying though Anet think they can just change a few things and walk away from it for months on end, they need to bring people on board properly and sort this game out before they push it off to sea. Balance will be a constant issue if they bring more expansion. We don't need full balance though just something which has fairly balanced and counter-play so we can actually make a difference in games instead of just seeing each others composition and knowing yup its GG this game pretty much every other game is decided like this.

Yeah of course if you watch the last couple hours of this stream you will understand and see what is wrong with the game right now, anet will kill this game if they do not begin to understand this. Really great stream one of his best one which showcase how he and a lot of the community feel about the game right now. He talk a lot of when the game was good and there was counter play and it was a pleasure to watch. https://www.twitch.tv/videos/493161038?filter=archives&sort=time

Yeah but this is what I mean why don't they poll what the players actually want and balance around that but balance to make something meta not nerfing it because of people whining you know? Stop look at the issue and say yeah ok we have to delete the issue, no, make some options and poll it to the players, make several tweaks instead of just gutting the builds with one nerf like hello?

By the way this tuesday patch you are talking about will literally just create a bunker fb and condi meta for this season, it will be complete cancer to play, think about it.

You need to stop nerfing one or two things on a build because you will just gut the build and something else will arise. All you do is nerf one thing half the time so people just stop using it completely but you don't think about or suggest what they should play instead. You must think about the consequence of what you are doing and what builds will take over if you gut things. This classes need heavily tweaking across all skills and traits, play with the numbers and bring them down overall so a new meta doesn't take over. Why not poll what builds people want and work your balancing around making those favourite builds meta like d/p theif and portal mesmer for example, there is no reason why they can't be part of the meta. You need to find 3 builds for each class that people like to play and make making those builds good your concern not just nerfing stuff so its a constant loop of killing a couple of things and the whole meta changes into some new cancer. Talk to the best players of the game as well why don't you do this? They would all like to have something to say but you never communicate with them at all, never replying to them or trying. I feel all you do is really show a face when the going gets rough, really need to start doing more to communicate with the better players of this game, the veterans know the game and pvp better than anyone and know what is good for making it a healthy game mode where we have balance across the board from builds themselves to how they fit into compositions.

To me it seems half bothered as always. Always nerfing instead of balancing and still don't remove the most over-performing.

This happens to everyone who enters into pvp match late or after dc. It’s a well known bug associated to new templates Thanks sherlock

Burn the game I have had enough. As above duo q and solo q should be rotated. Build templates is ridiculous and overpriced there should be a an opt out. The game is dying. Pof specs ruined pvp. Anet have dumbed the game down. What more is there to say we get some new crappy mists map and thats it were expected to fall in love with pvp again. Nothing new to work for or towards so all you are doing is losing and winning unbalanced games for literally no reason. Sick of it honestly I feel in same position as sindrener I come back for a couple months then leave for double...

Your game killed my pc and when i got back skills 5-10 didn't work. Tried to re-log and still dont work. Tried to change char and now can't get back into game. Ty for loss and dishonour anet tyvm.

They don't test anything that's the problem.

-5% I swapped classes last minute and of course the build had been changed on that class to something completely useless and it was too late to swap back so I lost the first game. Also the queue is more bugged than it has ever been. I have already said I won't be buying build templates either, I won't support such monetisation and will not be spending any more money on the game because of it. I might have accepted a one off fee for unlimited use but that ain't gonna happen.

Because with this model I will not buy any template. I would if they were unlimited and one time purchase. They can't do what you want because this way they'll put something in the gem store that have to be around 20k - 50k gems and no one is going to buy it. If I need to compare what you are suggesting with something already in the game I would give the example with legendaries. Imagine getting all the legendaries at the same time but you need to pay for all of them before that. What they are doing is something close to the legendary crafting systems but with gems, buying little by little until you fully unlock everything on a character and then move to the other one, or build few of them in the same time. Your point of view is wrong in my opinion. Let me give you real life example of my guild. Around 30 players raid there. Most of them would buy unlimited gear and build templates for 30€. Like 1/3 of them are veterans that smend hundereds of € on this game.I have talked with most of those 30 players and1) noone will buy templates with real money2) most of them will not buy templates at all because they are just not enough for them3) most of them said that they will not buy any more gems because they dont want to support this company anymore They are losing way more by overpricing this system Sounds like hurt feelings and disappointment to me. It will pass in time and slowly little by little those players you are talking about WILL buy what they need to enjoy the game like before. Many people were against the Saga... now no one is talking against it and they are just playing it, waiting for the new episode. Many people were against Strike Missions, now no one is talking against them and even Teapot is exited about them. Everything passes, wounds are closing, people learn to just deal with it and adapt to the new or just leave and get replaced with people who can adapt. You can't put final price to the templates because what you are buying right now is bits of information which is being put in to the database of servers of the game. By buying equipment or build storage you are buying spot from this server. Do I need to remind you that the limit of the characters you may have on a single account is around 70? Think about 70 players x 6 equipment slots x 19 items in each with 24 infusions, 6 runes and 4 sigils. In simple math it's 70 x (6 x (19 + 24 + 6 + 4)) = 22 260‬ total items information stored per account... and you want to get that for 30€. And yes... I know most of us won't have 70 characters fully equipped with items and infusions and runes and sigils and that'why don't see the reason of the complaining... just buy what you need and deal with it. If I have to think of similar example of what you are suggesting I can think of unlimited characters pack. For just 30€ you can have all the 70 characters you want but don't see people complaining about the buying a character from the gem store option. Those players used to buy gems every month and for past months they stoped. The reason is purely logical. They enjoyed the game and knew that they will keep playing. Since path of fire we are not sure if we quit next relese because we know that every relese anet made since that was not enjoyable. We would buy QoL improvement if it was worth it. In fact we were excited about templates and wanted to buy them. Again anet managed to take something we actualy wanted to buy and completely destroy it.We wanted unlimited templates and we got limited loadoutsThere would be no storage needed if everything was stored localyon computer. Who plays each day on diferent computer?Anet promised that templates are there so you can have perfect build for any activity. This is just false since there is no way there are enough slots for even one gamemode.I am a student and I could write better addon for this then anet did. If not better then at least faster.Yes, I will buy those templates but not for real life money. I will just gather gold and buy those 1 at a time. If you needed to buy whole system at once then i would consider buying it for money since it would take way too long to farm. Equipment storage is great and ceetainly worth the price. At least for someone. But I feel like templates and storage should be separated since storage is the reason why temp..., sorry loadouts, are so limited. The reason your guild mates left and stopped buying from the gem store is because they got bored from the game or burnedout from it. There is no other reason. If you and they enjoy the game that much you won't mind buying 29100 gems to unlock all things on 9 characters + the 24 account build storages. It will cost you €363.75 or 10739 gold to do so. We are not burned out. We love playing the game. Sadly new releses are worse in our opinion then they used to be because they are either locked behind enormous paywall or timegate. And for your info €363 is almost a month wage for lesser paid jobs here. Dont know how a student would be able to afford that. We are raiders, we used to do fractals but new fractals are dissapointing since they are easier and dont reward skilled players. Last raid was also quite easy. Build templates are ok but only for very casual players. We see a trend that each relese is worse then the last one. Updates take longer and there is no roadmap. We dont want to invest ingame if we dont know if we will play next month. We are still playing, just not paying.I'm now burnt out from the direction this game is headed. The gem store and costings of things has always been a bit borderline for me but this just pushes things too far. It now encroaches into my feeling of being burnt out from the game and pushes that feeling even more. Others have said the same, it makes you want to quit. PoF has bought massive powercreep and destroyed the competitiveness and difficulty of the game, it's left things in a really sad state. All of the good players and veterans are either leaving or burnt out half the time and probably quite toxic and unhelpful the rest of the time. I didn't think anet could afford to do something like this personally, and I don't support it because of the way it makes me feel. This game is really dying soon it will be left with new players who don't know anything and don't want to get better and will probably end up quitting because of the toxicity from the veterans...

The problem is that, with low population this kind of cheese build is counter productive in bringing any new players to pvp or keeping new players and even many old players do not like this build. I don't understand the support for condi theif myself, pretty much everyone I have actually spoken to in game, even the ones playing condi theif have all said they would sooner see it gone but just play it because it carries vs new players easily. People in this game seem to forget that we have low population at the moment and can't afford for builds like this to be upsetting the status further, we need to look at balancing builds better without constant spike damage and focus on creating a meta which has more counter play other than who can nuke who first and snowball the fastest. Nothing but hyperbole and anecdotal nonsense in your post. I play a Condition thief and do not want to see it gone. I really can not see how any person that is legit can claim "I play condition thief and want to see it gone". If they want to see it gone do not play it. I play p/d condition thief using the DE spec. It hardly OP and does not do any of what you suggest in your post. If you want to talk about a specific thief , in this case s/d condition then you are talking about THAT build and not condition thief. I do not understand how people can not grasp this. And yes as rowdy suggests the condition thief using the old traps was deadlier then today's version. S/d thief is not that great a build if people would take the time to understand how it works. They do not want to do that so pretend that the issue is with all condition thieves. I would have thought it is obvious that we were talking about s/d condition. The deadeye spec is far better and has some counter play I agree, but you completely missed my point. With S/d condi theif in the current meta game in a ranked game where you are often playing with 1 good player on each team and 3-4 low silver or lower, they have absolutely no understanding and all you do is watch the condi theif evade over each one of them twice and they die one by one, there is nothing you can do to carry these games sometimes and like I said in my post this is counter productive in helping to keep new players in ranked and bring new ones in. Low population is our biggest problem and for as long as people refuse to see cheese builds being a big part of that problem and call it a l2p git gud issue, low population will always be a massive problem for the game. But it's whatever, like burnfall said I'm just hurting myself talking about it. I should really just try and enjoy whats left of this game. No it was not rather obvious you were talking about s/d thief. The very title of this thread is nerf Condition thief. It does not say Nerf s/d condition thief. Added to that theso called fixes (see venoms) affect other condition builds. If one is talking only about s/d condition then why on earth suggest fixes that impact those other builds? I'll save you the hassle and tell you that every "nerf condi theif" thread is about s/d condition. Also I did not mention any fixes let alone fixes that affect other builds, so please don't get on the defensive about your build potentially getting nerfed, that's not what I or anyone else is asking for. Personally I don't have a problem with deadeye condi, fought one the other day and I thought it had good counter play to it, but then I haven't fought that build enough either to say that with full confidence. I'm not extremely knowledgeable when it comes to technicalities, I'm a solo player, I don't have a lot of time and I have to learn everything for myself. What you are not seeing is my perspective, all you care about is your build. What I am saying is that s/d condi trolls through and destroys new players far too easily. It is making ranked games lop sided and thus not enjoyable to play. It is an ez mode build with not much counter play and is not healthy to the spvp game mode with long term low population issues. I literally picked this build up in one game during season and was trolling through new players and even supposed experienced players no problems at all, because everyone is playing solo que s/d theif can even troll right up in plat as well because you can't communicate where he is to easily counter him. He ports in with a condi bomb and in a split second the fight can be over. The way I feel is that anybody actually defending this build has no idea what it's like to play ranked up at top 250 level and see how difficult games are when you actually get matched with all high plat players only then for them to use s/d theif to easily pick off your stray team mates. It's all good if people swap to counter comp but otherwise you are looking at a lop sided boring game. So if s/d theif can troll platinum players imagine how hard it can troll through new players, it's multiplicative. This skews leaderboards and makes the game even more unenjoyable, I really can't understand why people don't see this?? How can you enjoy something which kills the game?? If you would properly identify the TYPE of condition build that is causing the problem then you can more readily counter that build. Port/dodge/dodge might work against poorer players but once it understood how they get those conditions on then the port/dodge/dodge thief has to change tactics. They have few other ways of applying conditions. The dodge missiles from impaling have a limited range. In fact after the initial port to the target with an infiltrators if that target just dodges back he is very often out of range of those missiles. You do not have to STAND there. Dodge out of range of the impaling followup strikes and you are left with a couple of stacks of poison. There plenty of counterplay. Again you don't acknowledge a single thing I said. Just spewing out advice to somebody who doesn't need it, quite clearly on the defensive and not willing to see what is good for the game, it's very selfish. By the way I played with and against you, and shock horror (not) you were playing s/d condi theif. Omegalul. No you did not play against me, I do not have nor have i played a s/d condi thief. . The only s/x spec I have is s/p power and I have used s/d power. My condition build is a p/d sb thief using the DE line and has always been and I have also played d/d condition. If you look back at my posting history to the time Daredevil released I was never fond of the Daredevil condition build for p/d and always felt it substandard. If you have to make things up to make a point you have no argument whatsoever and are not worth the bother. You cant not be taken seriously because you just make things up. As to leaderboards and the like, I do not care about them. As further evidence that you just make things up, I do not PvP. Never have so you could not possibly have played with me or against me. Think about what you are saying bro, you are just digging a bigger grave as they say. You're now saying you've been arguing with me on a PvP post about a PvP build when you don't even PvP?! Imagine if Anet would actually listen to the people that play high level sPvP for balancing, and the high level ones that actually care for the game to have a healthy meta which invites new players in to grow with fairly balanced builds that have good counter play and which require skill to play well. That would be a great game. No instead we have trolls on the forums that only play one build and class and don't care for anything outside of that build and class enough to actually make what they are saying sound sensible enough, yet Anet will still balance around them because they are the majority now. It's a shame to see this game in such an ez mode state, and to see all the low players on here crying for it to be even easier instead of having something balanced and competitive. This is the worst PvP meta we have ever had and we're about to go into another whole season of it just before christmas, it's insanity. No , Bro you still do not get it. You ascribe my objections to how the s/d build being discusses to personal self interest because I am only concerned about my thief. Well guess what it has no affect on my whatsoever in PvP because I do not play it. You then make up a statement that I play s/d condition andf you played against and with me which was an outright fabrication BRO. I speak in the PVP topic because people make the same arguments in PVp as they do in WvW. I speak in the PvP topic because the same things they get wrong on what the issue is in PvP is what they get wrong in WvW. I speak in the PvP topic because the mechanics of how a given attack made are the same in PvP as they are in WvW. There dodges in both modes. There ability to close gaps in both modes. Thief uses INI in both bodes. P/d DE is superior to s/d DD condition in both modes.There cleanses in Both modes.I speak in the PvP topic because I do not think ANET should listen to people who do not even play thief, who do not understand how they work and who do not uderstand how to play against them other then to come to the boards and whine. I speak in the PvP topic because just like you and just like in WvW they are people who just make stuff up in order to convince ANET to address specific builds. The last type of person ANET should listen to is the people who make stuff up when they post. They can not base changes around fabrications and you talk about another "digging a grave for himself" when you just outright lied about having played my s/d condition build? Really?That's funny because I swear I played with somebody in unranked who had exactly the same name as you bro. Again you are not even an sPvP player. sPvP balance isn't all about 1v1ing and skirmishing which is what you are talking about I can tell coming from a WvW player. p/d DE might have some stronger dueling capabilities/potential from what I can see but when it comes to winning conquest games s/d condi theif is far superior stomping when it comes to being able to +1, and, rotate in a conquest game, being able to easily and consistently put down a strong condition bombs in a split second from range, and, with full cooldowns it can easily one shot anything in a mere split second that doesn't have enough cleanse. And yet again you are proclaiming yourself to say that you don't care about condi theif being nerfed for your own personal gain yet you have only ever mentioned anything concerning condi theif being nerfed no explanation whatsoever outside of your 1v1/skrim outlook and you still refuse to see things from anyone elses perspective even though others and myself have seen them from yours and tried to explain ourselves further. If you want some further explanation you could go and watch some of sindreners streams and you'll soon get a jist from arguably the best theif, and, spvp/general knowledge players of the game, of why the majority of people want condi s/d theif gone from spvp. Otherwise I can't be bothered to speak to you any longer you are now only trying to turn my argument on myself when I have clearly explained myself and so have others and you have completely ignored the important things that have been said.

The problem is that, with low population this kind of cheese build is counter productive in bringing any new players to pvp or keeping new players and even many old players do not like this build. I don't understand the support for condi theif myself, pretty much everyone I have actually spoken to in game, even the ones playing condi theif have all said they would sooner see it gone but just play it because it carries vs new players easily. People in this game seem to forget that we have low population at the moment and can't afford for builds like this to be upsetting the status further, we need to look at balancing builds better without constant spike damage and focus on creating a meta which has more counter play other than who can nuke who first and snowball the fastest. Nothing but hyperbole and anecdotal nonsense in your post. I play a Condition thief and do not want to see it gone. I really can not see how any person that is legit can claim "I play condition thief and want to see it gone". If they want to see it gone do not play it. I play p/d condition thief using the DE spec. It hardly OP and does not do any of what you suggest in your post. If you want to talk about a specific thief , in this case s/d condition then you are talking about THAT build and not condition thief. I do not understand how people can not grasp this. And yes as rowdy suggests the condition thief using the old traps was deadlier then today's version. S/d thief is not that great a build if people would take the time to understand how it works. They do not want to do that so pretend that the issue is with all condition thieves. I would have thought it is obvious that we were talking about s/d condition. The deadeye spec is far better and has some counter play I agree, but you completely missed my point. With S/d condi theif in the current meta game in a ranked game where you are often playing with 1 good player on each team and 3-4 low silver or lower, they have absolutely no understanding and all you do is watch the condi theif evade over each one of them twice and they die one by one, there is nothing you can do to carry these games sometimes and like I said in my post this is counter productive in helping to keep new players in ranked and bring new ones in. Low population is our biggest problem and for as long as people refuse to see cheese builds being a big part of that problem and call it a l2p git gud issue, low population will always be a massive problem for the game. But it's whatever, like burnfall said I'm just hurting myself talking about it. I should really just try and enjoy whats left of this game. No it was not rather obvious you were talking about s/d thief. The very title of this thread is nerf Condition thief. It does not say Nerf s/d condition thief. Added to that theso called fixes (see venoms) affect other condition builds. If one is talking only about s/d condition then why on earth suggest fixes that impact those other builds? I'll save you the hassle and tell you that every "nerf condi theif" thread is about s/d condition. Also I did not mention any fixes let alone fixes that affect other builds, so please don't get on the defensive about your build potentially getting nerfed, that's not what I or anyone else is asking for. Personally I don't have a problem with deadeye condi, fought one the other day and I thought it had good counter play to it, but then I haven't fought that build enough either to say that with full confidence. I'm not extremely knowledgeable when it comes to technicalities, I'm a solo player, I don't have a lot of time and I have to learn everything for myself. What you are not seeing is my perspective, all you care about is your build. What I am saying is that s/d condi trolls through and destroys new players far too easily. It is making ranked games lop sided and thus not enjoyable to play. It is an ez mode build with not much counter play and is not healthy to the spvp game mode with long term low population issues. I literally picked this build up in one game during season and was trolling through new players and even supposed experienced players no problems at all, because everyone is playing solo que s/d theif can even troll right up in plat as well because you can't communicate where he is to easily counter him. He ports in with a condi bomb and in a split second the fight can be over. The way I feel is that anybody actually defending this build has no idea what it's like to play ranked up at top 250 level and see how difficult games are when you actually get matched with all high plat players only then for them to use s/d theif to easily pick off your stray team mates. It's all good if people swap to counter comp but otherwise you are looking at a lop sided boring game. So if s/d theif can troll platinum players imagine how hard it can troll through new players, it's multiplicative. This skews leaderboards and makes the game even more unenjoyable, I really can't understand why people don't see this?? How can you enjoy something which kills the game?? If you would properly identify the TYPE of condition build that is causing the problem then you can more readily counter that build. Port/dodge/dodge might work against poorer players but once it understood how they get those conditions on then the port/dodge/dodge thief has to change tactics. They have few other ways of applying conditions. The dodge missiles from impaling have a limited range. In fact after the initial port to the target with an infiltrators if that target just dodges back he is very often out of range of those missiles. You do not have to STAND there. Dodge out of range of the impaling followup strikes and you are left with a couple of stacks of poison. There plenty of counterplay. Again you don't acknowledge a single thing I said. Just spewing out advice to somebody who doesn't need it, quite clearly on the defensive and not willing to see what is good for the game, it's very selfish. By the way I played with and against you, and shock horror (not) you were playing s/d condi theif. Omegalul. No you did not play against me, I do not have nor have i played a s/d condi thief. . The only s/x spec I have is s/p power and I have used s/d power. My condition build is a p/d sb thief using the DE line and has always been and I have also played d/d condition. If you look back at my posting history to the time Daredevil released I was never fond of the Daredevil condition build for p/d and always felt it substandard. If you have to make things up to make a point you have no argument whatsoever and are not worth the bother. You cant not be taken seriously because you just make things up. As to leaderboards and the like, I do not care about them. As further evidence that you just make things up, I do not PvP. Never have so you could not possibly have played with me or against me. Think about what you are saying bro, you are just digging a bigger grave as they say. You're now saying you've been arguing with me on a PvP post about a PvP build when you don't even PvP?! Imagine if Anet would actually listen to the people that play high level sPvP for balancing, and the high level ones that actually care for the game to have a healthy meta which invites new players in to grow with fairly balanced builds that have good counter play and which require skill to play well. That would be a great game. No instead we have trolls on the forums that only play one build and class and don't care for anything outside of that build and class enough to actually make what they are saying sound sensible enough, yet Anet will still balance around them because they are the majority now. It's a shame to see this game in such an ez mode state, and to see all the low players on here crying for it to be even easier instead of having something balanced and competitive. This is the worst PvP meta we have ever had and we're about to go into another whole season of it just before christmas, it's insanity.