Tempest.8479

I don't know why you keep ignoring attunements. The reason elementalist doesn't have weapon swap, kits, or "possibly more," is because of attunements. Once an elementalist chooses its weapons, they can swap into different attunements. Where other classes get traits that affect weapon swaps or kits, elementalists get traits that affect, you guessed it, attunements. That is literally the mechanic that is supposed to function as an equivalent exchange for weapon swap and kits, not conjured weapons. If there is a problem where attunements aren't providing the same level of flexibility as the equivalent mechanics on other classes, then that means attunements should be examined and adjusted to allow for a comparable level of flexibility and consistency. Conjures are just a supplementary skill type no different than cantrips, signets, glyphs, etc., and shouldn't be used as a substitute for improving the actual mechanic that limits weapon swap in the first place. I think you should really consider why the devs decided they didn't like conjured weapons being part of the meta, and why they haven't done much to adjust them since. In fact, most of the adjustments have been to tone down or limit conjures when they become too prevalent. I don't know how extending the range of some weapon skills would break their functionality. There's nothing stopping you from using said skill in close range, and it's only a value add to use it at range. If some skills need to be shaved down a bit to compensate I don't think it would destroy their functionality, especially if the changes are spread across attunements, thereby minimizing the collective impact on any single attunement. I also wouldn't call my proposed reworks "fire-and-forget" either. I tried to design most of them where there would be an element of strategy to when you activate the second skill (trading off healing for damage and immob on Ice Bow, leaving Flame Axe at its location long enough while positioning for the return to deal the most damage, ending Earth Shield early to apply boons/bleeding). Except what you're forgetting is that there isn't as much of an opportunity cost to use a conjure over swapping weapons, because a conjure doesn't have a cooldown that prevents you from dropping the weapon. One could argue that the opportunity cost of leaving is built into the long recharge, but that still doesn't force an elementalist to commit to that new skillset for any amount of time. Swapping weapons forces any other class to commit to those skills for at least 10 seconds, where a conjured weapon does not. Because of this, conjures allow you to circumvent cooldowns and/or opportunity costs in many cases because you can immediately get back to your weapon skills when you're done using them. That's what makes them so dangerous to buff, and if you were to add a 10 second cooldown that prevents switching they might as well add weapon swap to elementalist (an equally bad idea in my opinion). As for the recharge of the reworked skills themselves, it's simply a numbers game. Take my ideas for Lightning Hammer. A pair of skills, one of which would only be available for a limited time if the first is successful, that replicate only 2.5 of its current skills necessitate a significant cooldown reduction. Because of how back-loaded the skills are, I could see this new Lightning Hammer having a cool down as low as 25-35 seconds in PvE. I arrived at those numbers by comparing it to skills like Flash Combo on Willbender, or even the proposed changes to arcane wave that are set to come in with the new balance patch. If the trait makes the skills too strong, then it could also increase their respective recharges by 10-20%. It's also important to note that my ideas are not the be all end all of reworking conjured weapons. There's a multitude of ways these skills could work, so long as they no longer function like weapons. I don't understand why reworked conjured weapons would have less of a tell then what they do right now. They would still have a cast time in which a conjured weapon is summoned, the only difference being that it would immediately go into an attack animation rather that waiting for a second button press to activate a skill. If anything this creates more of a tell because an elementalist would be immediately committing to using a conjure when it's summoned without having the option to hold its skills for a more opportune moment. An opponent that sees a conjured weapon being summoned would know that it's effects are imminent, rather than having to guess when the elementalist is going to use it. Likewise, an elementalist would be punished harder for playing incorrectly, as they wouldn't just be able to camp the weapon and wait for a skill to recharge if they were countered. And other professions aren't capable of eliminating the trade-offs that come with operating primarily at range, because you just listed the trade-offs they would have to make in order to account for challenges that may force them out of a viable range. Giving up an entire weapon set and being forced to commit to those skills for a minimum of 10 seconds at a time is a much bigger trade-off than sacrificing a single utility slot. I would argue that it's healthier for the balance of the game to keep conjures awkward to fit into a build and largely irrelevant to the class as a whole, and that may be an intentional choice to have left conjures as-is rather than open up the can of worms that comes with trying to balance them as they exist right now. Defensive/utility skills lost as a sword/dagger Weaver when equipping a conjured weapon: Riptide (evade/heal/regen/water field) Frost Armor (frost aura/transmute) Cleansing Wave (aoe healing/aoe cleanse) Polaric Leap (teleport/daze) Ride the Lightning (mobility) Updraft (aoe launch/evade/swiftness) Gale strike (aoe float) Lava Skin (pulsing barrier) Earthen Vortex (evade/aoe cripple) Earthquake (aoe knockdown) Churning Earth (leap/aoe cripple) Defensive/utility skills gained when equipping Lightning Hammer/Ice Bow combined: Thunderclap (aoe blind) Lightning Leap (leap/quickness) Wind Blast (launch/superspeed) Static field (aoe stun/lightning field) Water arrow (?) (healing) Frost Fan (?) (aoe chill) Deep Freeze (long stun) I don't think you can make the argument that conjures don't remove general utility and survivability, even on the most aggressive melee build you can run. This only gets worse when you start accounting for the skills that hammer, focus, or warhorn bring. That's also not even accounting for any survivability or utility added from traits/relics that synergize better with regular weapon skills in many cases. Being able to operate at range for a melee build isn't enough to warrant a melee elementalist giving up that much survivability, when they could just use what ranged options (if any) their weapon set provides and slot 1 or more ranged utility skills to bide their time until they can get back into melee range. Lightning Hammer does provide a good amount of cc but most of it is single target, and only really excels if you quickly chain all of its skills together for additional cc through the lightning field, which just plays into the "use all useful skills and drop" playstyle. The only conjured weapon that you can make an argument as to having plenty of survivability/utility is Earth Shield, and I think having access to aoe cripple, block, barrier, magnetic aura, aoe daze, aoe pull, protection, and channeled invulnerability is way too much survivability for its own good. Ranged weapons do generally have less access to defensive tools, which is the trade-off for being able to operate at range. Most builds that use these weapons would be better off trying to build ways to get back to their optimal range, because distance is their main defensive utility. Additionally, there's no penalty for using said weapons at close range. There's nothing stopping a scepter elementalist from doing just as much, if not more damage, in melee range than one wielding a sword. Therefore, a close range conjured weapon offers little to no benefit over just using ranged skills at close range, or slotting a different utility that helps to create distance/defends while using weapon skills. This is the exact scenario I would hope the developers are looking to avoid. If every new design decision now needs to weigh the efficacy of viable conjured weapons, then the new weapons get worse or the conjures become mandatory. If all elementalists can use conjures as alternate weapon sets, new weapons will be less powerful to compensate, or potentially be so limited in their scope that a conjure will become essential to round out the build. That's also not even considering the fact that viable conjured weapons just provide less design space for new weapons, as you wouldn't want too many redundancies in playstyle. If Earth shield is already a viable, focused, defensive weapon, then what's the point of introducing any overlap with an off-hand shield or sword that could promote more duelist playstyles? If Ice Bow is already a serviceable alternative for melee power elementalists to use at range, how much is there to be gained by introducing a longbow? Each new weapon would now have to be different enough from other weapons to stand on its own, but also different enough from all conjured weapons as well. If new weapons only contribute a new aesthetic for a particular playstyle already covered by the use of conjures, then many new weapons will feel underwhelming/underused. This not only makes development suffer, but it also makes player choice suffer. Engineer has this problem already, where the decision to take any new weapon has to be weighed against just using the current weapons and taking *insert kit* that covers most of the same roles/playstyle the new weapon would anyway. Designing around additional weapon sets provided by utilities should never dictate how new weapons function on elementalist, especially because conjured weapons aren't a core part of the class. Nor should they be, really. That's exactly the point. It's better to use a limited amount of regular rotation skills than it is to switch to a different weapon altogether. They would be skills valuable enough to use as a part of your regular rotation, and the limit to the amount of useable skills creates a drop in functionality without sacrificing everything. Water skills not having access to viable damage is absolutely a conversation to be had, which is why I highlighted that in my response. More importantly, however, I reiterate that it would be a conversation about how to improve weapon skills and their access to consistent counters to ranged mechanics rather than throwing more weapons at the problem. Again, I reiterate that if a class (elite spec in this case) with access to 20 weapon skills at any given moment cannot adjust to certain encounters or mechanics without locking themselves out of said skills for a different set of skills (anywhere between 5-20), then the problems with the elite spec are much more foundational than what attempting to make conjured function as weapons addresses. Tempest especially should absolutely be looked at in order to improve its ability to operate at different ranges, likely through a GM trait that turns 1 or more overloads into a ranged, ground-targeted ability. Catalyst utilities all requiring you to stand inside your spheres to make the most use out of them doesn't synergize with the more ranged aspects of the spec, and can probably be reworked to facilitate ranged/hybrid gameplay. Each of these suggestions are potential fixes addressing foundational issues that viable conjures would only be attempting to cover up. If a Tempest or Catalyst would require taking a particular utility, or set of utilities, to account for issues with the specs themselves, then the problem is with the specs. I don't think most weapons need to be reworked so that entire attunements work at range. Rather, there should be a few skills across all attunements that an elementalist can chain together to adjust to ranged challenges without being able to maintain that range for extended periods of time. As an example, the same way hammer has multiple close range skills on its "ranged" attunements, daggers can have a few 600+ range skills across their close range attunements to keep doing things for a bit until close range becomes an option again. That way, each weapon maintains its identity while providing access to enough mixed range that elementalists can remain at least somewhat viable during the portions of the encounters that require it. There's even room for extending auto-attacks like Vapor Blade if need be. All of which would be a better solution than the problems created by letting conjures fill in those gaps. I would consider a short burst long enough to use a few skills and have their effects kick in to counter in the short-term, so anywhere from 5-15 seconds seems like an appropriate amount of time that an elementalist should be able to function outside of its viable range. It just shouldn't be able to do so with multiple skills and/or multiple times in a short timeframe, nor should it be able to function consistently for longer windows without sacrificing a significant portion of its build to do so (taking mixed weapon ranges, multiple utilites, certain traits, etc.). If you can take 1 utility skill that would allow you to circumvent the trade-offs of running an aggressive melee build for 20-30 seconds at a time, even sub-optimally, then that utility skill is too strong. I can't speak for organized group content like strikes, but I can't say that any content designed for the open world or large groups has become particularly hostile to melee since EoD. The Jade Sea meta, considered by many to be the hardest in the game, easily allows for melee. I can't think of any SotO metas that particularly punish melee either. There's some enemies across both expansions that punish melee, but not enough to think it's more than what HoT or PoF brought to the table. I regularly play convergences as a hammer Catalyst, and I don't think any of the bosses introduced so far really punish melee. While being able to share weapons has been a problem, it's nowhere near the biggest problem with conjures. Even if they aren't shared, the way conjures function right now would break elementalist in unsustainable ways. The issues Earth Shield has, for example, have nothing to do with its ability to be shared. It's about adding so much of a particular skillset or playstyle for the cost of only 1 utility skill. If they're good, conjures would become ubiquitous in way too much of the game for it to be worth it to actually make them good. And there's nothing wrong with using one or two high-powered skills if that's literally how the skills are designed to be used. It becomes a problem when it's a full weapon set that gets used like this. No amount of tweaks, save for literally forcing elementalists to stay in those weapons once they are cast, can prevent them from being used in this way. So if the weapons are already less of a weapon set and more of a couple of skills to be used every so often anyway, why not just let that be their intended functionality? They can still exist to help add flexibility or synergies, but can now be balanced exclusively around the extent of the skills that would now be designed with that playstyle in mind. Their scope would be significantly limited, and the skills could be tweaked without having to worry about what it would do to the performance of an entire weapon set. The ease with which Firebrand could access powerful support and utility skills, even when fully dps, was deemed so problematic for the game as a whole that tomes were completely reworked to pull from a unified resource pool (pages) in addition to the skills' normal recharges. This was done specifically to pull back the unintended consequences of giving a class multiple additional weapon sets when the class wasn't designed with that much flexibility in mind. Even after those changes, Firebrand is still considered the de facto support in fractals because of how much more flexible it is than most other classes and elite specs. That is exactly why conjures are so problematic to balance. They present the same challenges as Firebrand tomes, except they aren't built into the class's core mechanics. Making them viable just adds a ton of additional flexibility and utility without the ability to rework profession mechanics around them to try and balance things without sacrificing their design principles. Distilling conjured weapons down into a pair of skills doesn't mean that all of their most problematic aspects need to carry over. For example, my proposed rework would eliminate the stun from Deep Freeze in favor of immobilize, and Earth Shield would lose its channeled invulnerability for a block. By removing the parts of the skills that make them hardest to balance while retaining most of the flavor and mechanical niche, I don't think nerfs to the point of irrelevance would be necessary at all. As I discussed before, designing around conjured weapons would be way worse for new weapons in terms of power and/or unique design space. I absolutely agree with you that Catalyst utilities should be looked to to be made more active, and like I said before, can even be reworked to help Catalyst operate at range as well. Catalyst occupies an odd thematic/mechanical space as is, so I personally think its ideas need to be refined better anyway. I fail to see how you could make a weapon good enough to function as a suitable weapon for one case, but not in all other applicable cases. How can a skill become good enough to slot as an alternate weapon set for melee builds, but not also be good enough to slot for all other builds? In a world that they are good enough for melee builds to take, then they would need to compete with or outperform other utility skills that occupy similar mechanical niches. It would need to be better/more consistent for a melee elementalist to operate at range taking Ice Bow over something like arcane blast, for instance. If the damage is good enough on Ice Bow to compete with or outperform simply taking a ranged skill like arcane blast as a melee build, what's to stop a ranged build from doing the exact same thing? They could just dip into a conjure while all of their biggest skills are on cooldown, then just swap back immediately. That would almost certainly result in a DPS increase for the ranged build as well, especially if the biggest power budget is now shifted to lower cooldowns so they can potentially use multiple casts before going back to their regular rotation. The only ways I see that would keep the conjures you propose in check would be to make the opportunity costs so prohibitively high that only a couple of builds could really make use of them (rendering the skills functionality irrelevant) or making it so that the only way to achieve comparable damage/utility is to spam all the skills off cooldown, making them so hyper-focused on literally 1 or 2 things that it defeats the purpose of having 5 skills altogether. If the latter were the case, then it would be better to just take the skills that already exist and can achieve similar or better numbers without the extra effort.

I largely agree with the first point, but I think what you're not accounting for is that the elementalist does get to customize it's loadout. With the notable exception of staff, which is the only 2-handed weapon without mixed range, an elementalist's choice of weapons dictates how most of its skills will operate. Using 2 weapons allows the elementalist to separately dictate the primary range of its 12 main-hand skills, as well as its 8 off-hand skills. Now, the argument can be made that not every weapon selection is appropriately equipped to operate at those ranges, or to adjust to certain encounters, but that's an entirely different conversation. While it may not seem that elementalists have as many decision points as engineers do, I would argue that they still have enough to create well-rounded loadout without the use of conjured weapons. No, I'm proposing that reworking conjures into viable utility skills rather than entire replacement weapon sets is better for the long-term balance of the class and the game, regardless of whether its weapons can address mixed-ranged challenges. I think they're 2 separate issues, and while they can be connected in some ways, can be addressed separately. Correct. By virtue of being mostly functional, they would require less tweaks or reworks than an entire skill type that accounts for 25 skills, many of which aren't that great, as well as being built on a bad/outdated design principle for the class that limits them from actually becoming viable utility skills. I agree with you that Lightning Hammer operates very differently than what current weapons do, which is why if you look at my proposed changes for the skill, you would see that it still retains almost all of what makes it distinct as a weapon set. Using my proposed version of the skill would still get you multiple power damage hits, a single target launch, a leap finisher, AOE blind, and quickness (when traited). Additionally, it would synergize with itself, allowing for more damage on the follow-up skill to the target you launch. You could also use it in conjunction with a bunch of combos already built into the class's weapons and even other utilites, an advantage over its current iteration. All of this would be balanced around needing to successfully connect with the first attack to have access to the more loaded second hit for a small window, and ideally have a cooldown shorter than the current 60s. More importantly, this skill could be balanced around the rest of an elementalist's skills without the concern that one could just camp the weapon and use them multiple times in a shorter window. This creates an easier balance approach, because if the skill gets too strong it wouldn't overshadow every other utility in the short-term, and could be adjusted down without accounting for 5 separate weapon skills. It would also still give ranged elementalists a powerful cc and melee attack(s) to use reactively if an opponent gets too close, without completely eliminating the trade-offs that come with operating primarily at range. Conjured weapons operating like utilities removes a lot of the limits that make them largely irrelevant in today's game, while still retaining the flavor and mechanical miche that the skills are currently attempting to provide. A skill doesn't need to be part of a general rotation to be useful. Most defensive utilities are slotted to use reactively in specific moments rather being incorporated into a rotation. What makes conjured weapons uniquely bad as a skill type is that they remove the general utility, damage, and survivability built into the class's weapons, which can also synergize with different utilities, in exchange for a set of skills that is redundant, worse, or provides a solution to a problem that happens so infrequently that it would be better to take almost any other skill in their place. And the second that those skills aren't worse than what normal weapons provide, then they are already too strong. This is where I think most of our disagreement lies. What you see as an advantage to elementalists caught out of their primary skill set, I see as the biggest drawback and limiting factor for conjured weapons as a whole. I would argue that if a class with access to 20 weapon skills at any given moment cannot adjust to certain encounters or mechanics without locking themselves out of said skills for a different set of skills (anywhere between 5-20), then the problems with the class are much more foundational than what attempting to make conjured function as weapons addresses. I think elementalist is much closer to operating as a well-rounded class with a few adjustments to its weapon skills than for entirely separate weapon sets to dictate how it counters those challenges. I think you're missing a lot of context behind why a change like this would be effective. For starters, you can accomplish most of this on a Weaver right now, and you don't need to start in water. If you're using a sword in air or earth you can already swap to water, use riptide to create distance and follow it up with a dual skill at range, then swap to the other attunement (air or earth) that you didn't start in to add a second dual skill from range. Adding range to Twin Strike would now allow a Weaver access to an evade/ranged combo that can be started from any element. What you're also failing to account for is that 2/3 off-hand weapons elementalists have access to are ranged, so it wouldn't just be giving access to 1 weapon skill every 3-6 seconds, it would realistically allow a Weaver to use a dual skill, as well as any ranged off-hand or utility skills, before and after swapping attunements. An example combo for a sword/warhorn Weaver could look like this: Start in fire/air (assumed for typical damage rotation) Encounter begins to punish melee Swap to water, use riptide for evade Use reworked Twin Strike (600 range), Wildfire (600 range), and Heat Sync (600 range) Swap to air, use Shearing Edge (600 range), Water Globe (750 range), and 1 ranged utility (arcane blast, glyph of storms, signet of fire, etc.) Swap to earth, use Cyclone (750 range), Lightning Orb (1200 range), and 1 ranged utility (if available) Swap to water, use Natural Frenzy (600 range), Sand Squall (600 range), and Dust Storm (750 range) Assuming these skills are all available to cast, this combo is 1) almost completely available to use right now and 2) allows for immediate ranged damage on sword using a reworked Twin Strike. Similar combos can be used with a focus off-hand, as well. Even using a dagger off-hand, a sword Weaver would be able to at least initiate part of a ranged combo from any non-water element just by swapping to water, using a dual skill, and chaining it with the next dual skill, all while providing blast finishers for AOE healing, frust aura, and 2 fire fields to blast might. Now, are all those skills doing damage, or if they are, are they doing good damage? Not necessarily. Is only using a couple of your weapon skills before swapping going to limit damage? Also true. But to say that it would be completely terrible? I think that's hyperbolic. Most importantly, however, is that it's a conversation about how to improve weapon skills and their access to consistent counters to ranged mechanics rather than throwing more weapons at the problem. I would argue that making a change to 1 weapon skill allows more flexibility and consistency for a melee Weaver dealing with range than any change to the current versions of conjured weapons would. So I don't really see it as doing "all that," because even minimal changes to weapon skills make a bigger impact. I also don't think choosing sword on other specs should have many ranged tools, if at all, simply because I believe Weaver should offer added flexibility in its dual skills in exchange for the limitations on its attunement swaps and rotation patterns. Other elite specs can add this flexibility through their respective mechanics, utility skills, weapon skills, etc. I disagree with this completely, because elementalists by design aren't really encouraged to auto-attack. Many auto-attacks aren't that good, and the class usually incentivises casting the most applicable skills to the moment and swapping attunements. Only Tempest really rewards an elementalist for spending some time in 1 element, as well as specific DPS builds that are built for group content. I would argue just giving an elementalist a few tools to deal with mixed ranges is more than enough to address the issue without sacrificing weapon identity, or forcing them to lock themselves out of their skills by using conjured weapons. At the end of the day there should still be trade-offs for choosing to operate primarily in melee, but there should be enough relief across the 4 attunements that allow for an adjustment to deal with ranged challenges in short bursts. Adding even just 1 viable conjured weapon into the mix allows an elementalist to circumvent those trade-offs, which I think provides more of a challenge from a balancing perspective than if they remain bad/irrelevant. In order for conjured weapons to operate purely as contingencies, then there would need to be enough encounters that create enough of a concern that there would be a justification for bringing them. But the reality is that PvE doesn't have enough of those challenges for the contingency to be relevant, and in competitive it's usually better to bring something that allows you to get back to your viable range than it is to sacrifice all of your tools, even for a brief time, to deal damage outside of that viable range. For example, if you build a power sword roamer in WvW, it's much better to try and close the gap, disable, or evade a ranged opponent than it is to try and trade ranged damage sub-optimally. If you play any kind of range, it's a lot easier to survive a melee encounter by taking skills that help create distance or help keep you alive than it is to try and switch to a melee weapon that removes access to all of your defensive weapon skills. For the PvE encounters that do punish range, I think it's ok for primarily melee elementalists to not be fully equipped to deal with it. They should have access to enough tools to mitigate their problems for a short while (including potentially reworked conjured weapons), but not eliminate most of those problems altogether knowing they can just swap to an entirely different weapon set to continue on without issue. There's a reason ranged weapons exist, and I think fights that punish melee should force elementalists to consider using regular ranged weapons rather than slotting conjured weapons. Again, if you want to have a discussion on whether those ranged weapons can provide enough to deal with melee-focused encounters, then that's a whole other conversation. Cutting the recharge, eliminating the extra summon, and removing the time constraints would certainly be added QoL, but that doesn't address the biggest problem with balancing conjured weapons, which is exactly that. You have to balance an entire weapon. They exist right now as a couple of useful skills you fire of before dropping them, but the second they are balanced like a cohesive weapon set then they break the class. They will never be used as anything more than how they're used now because they lack the complete set of tools that normal weapons have, and giving them even some of those tools would be harmful to the game as a whole. Even just adjusting numbers might be enough to break them, because you can equip multiple of them at once. If no single conjured weapon is better than a regular weapon, but chaining 2-3 of them together creates a set of skills that approximates what you would get from regular attunements, then you would essentially double an elementalist's potency by allowing them to continue using most of their skill-set while all of their skills are on cooldown, even if they were at sub-optimal levels. Being able to do something all the time can be just as bad for a class designed with long cooldowns in mind. Shifting power to the auto-attacks and shorter cooldowns likely creates an arguably worse problem because those are the skills that really let weapons operate cohesively. Some of the biggest balance issues that elementalist has had over the years involve conjured weapons. Fiery Greatsword was game-breaking in PvE for a while, and was problematic in competitive. I've already addressed Ice Bow and Earth Shield in a previous post. Seeing as to how there's already a history of conjured weapons being bad for the game when they're good, as well as being too complicated to tune when they aren't prevalent, then I think it would be better to simply move on from the concept of them as full weapons. You feel that conjured weapons should exist as contingencies. I think that's limiting what could be an interesting set of skills to being relegated to subpar secondary weapon sets at best, when they could be thriving as interesting thematic combo skills that complement the rest of what an elementalist brings to the table.

I don't think it can be understated how much of a difference it makes for an elementalist to have attunements versus an engineer only having access to 1 weapon set plus kits. The reason engineer is limited to 1 weapon is specifically because kits are baked into the core design of the class, the same way attunements are. An engineer that equips 3 kits has access to a relatively similar amount of skills as an elementalist does without conjures. Kits work better on engineer (and even then not without their own issues) because they are only being weighed against 1 weapon set, not 4. For starters, my argument for reworking conjures is irrespective of a rework to weapon skills. As things stand right now, I think conjures present to much of a mechanical and balance challenge for them to continue to exist in their current form. I understand fully that it would be a lot of effort to both rework conjures and take a look at some elementalist weapons and incorporate some range into their skills, but I think you're also seeing things as all or nothing. You're talking about sacrificing attunements or skills in order to incorporate range, but I don't think it needs to be that drastic. If you tweak a few skills on a weapon to give an elementalist a few ranged/close-range options to cycle through, then there isn't as much of a drastic need to make conjures function as supplementary weapon sets. I actually don't think conjures are that close to working because them actually working creates way more of a balancing headache than what they do right now. The irony with this point as things presently stand is that at least half of the utility conjures just recycle 2-3 core elementalist skills. If each weapon can currently only bring a couple of unique skills to the table anyways, why not just have them do those things? I think it's easier to redesign the weapons to function as a pair of flip-over skills than it is to design new skills or rework functionality/tweak balance across 5 different weapon sets. I specifically mentioned me just because I wanted to qualify my opinions as my own, but I think the general sentiment still stands. The way elementalist is designed creates too much of a loss to spend much time without access to its weapon skills. It is significantly more advantageous to take any skill that can add to or round out a build situationally without sacrificing weapon skills than any conjured weapon utility. At best they would exist to activate 2-3 skills and dip out, so facilitating lower cooldowns or a smoother switch doesn't really change anything. And the second either of those last points aren't true, then conjures become a balancing nightmare. Frost bow was infamously nerfed for its performance in WvW, and earth shield has had to be nerfed because of how oppressive it was becoming in competitive modes. Flame Axe and Lightning Hammer occupy a precarious space as well, because the second either of these become competitive damage-wise, you allow elementalist to circumvent the longer cooldowns its weapon skills have built in to account for the amount of skills it has. The only weapon that can kind-of occupy its own design space right now is Frost Bow, and we've already seen that it can quickly become a problem. As for potential overlap in making them more like other utilities in my own suggestions, some of that is my own oversight. I didn't take Fortified Earth into account when thinking of how Earth Shield would work, but even then I think that providing access to a counterattack that provides additional bleeding, as well as 2 boons the class normally has limited to no access to, would set it apart from other defensive utilities. It's interesting that you bring up Weaver and sword, because I think sword dual skills are a perfect place where 1-2 tweaks or reworks can give sword enough ranged tools for it to function with phase-shifted. Shearing Edge (water/air) and Natural Frenzy (water/earth) both already have 600 range. I think if Twin Strike (water/fire) was reworked to fire arcs of flame and water at 600 range, then all of the water dual skills would have range. That would give a sword Weaver 3 skills to cycle through, all with 10-12s cooldowns, when range becomes a problem. This would synergize well with water on sword as well because riptide is a backwards evade, so it would mean that swapping to water attunement would always provide a way to create separation and fire from range. I think relatively simple tweaks like this could provide different weapons a few tools to meet specific range challenges without sacrificing the Identity of the weapons as a whole. Again, I would reiterate that any encounter design that punishes specific ranges or mechanics should be addressed in the 4 sets of weapon skills that an ele already gets access to, rather than giving them access to more weapon skills to compensate. My biggest problem with this argument is that I think the design fundamentals of conjured weapons honestly have no place on elementalist at the moment. There may have been a time in the game's early days where they made more sense, but the amount of mechanical powercreep over the years has created a no win situation for conjured weapons. They're either bad or they risk giving a class with a ton of weapon skills even more options that break the class in unsustainable ways. There's quite frankly no way to make Flame Axe a viable condi ranged weapon, for example, and it not become the best condi utility skill for all elementalists at all ranges. The value and sheer efficiency of skills-per-slot that even just one viable conjured weapon creates makes the entire skill type unsustainable as a whole, in my opinion.

While I agree with you about how other classes would handle ranged combat as close range fighters, I don't think utility skills should be where an ele looks to solve that problem. Utility skills should be there to provide some utility and situational/playstyle synergies, not the solution to the limits placed on a class's weapon skills. The solution, in my opinion, is to actually introduce mixed ranges into the four sets of weapon skills an ele already has access to. While my solution might not look that different from spirit weapons or gadgets, I actually think they would be pretty distinct because the pair of each conjured weapon's skills would synergize with each other the way certain weapon skills work on other classes, like ranger greatsword or guardian hammer, or even the way some of the new ele scepter skills work. The reason I don't think conjures will become that much more usable by reducing their cooldown or eliminating their casting times is because they replace your weapon skills. If what you're suggesting means that they won't be used in a typical rotation at all, then there's no amount of ranged flexibility that would get me to replace my weapon skills, thereby limiting what flexibility I do have, over slotting a skill like lightning flash, signet of fire, or glyph of storms. These skills provide additional utility that can be used in tandem with my weapon skills, as well as providing . Even defensive skills like arcane shield can justify a slot because you know you might need to react defensively at some point. The problem with conjures becomes that if they're only useful when your typical rotation doesn't work, then they suffer from what they already suffer from now. They become too situational to the point of irrelevance. And the second they become more useful, they run the risk of becoming too oppressive because they provide one or more entire new weapon sets to add to your rotation. If they're balanced as what they should be, which is utility skills rather than weapons, then there's a chance they can find a niche for an ele to use them often enough to justify their existence without sacrificing the weapon skills that the class already has plenty of. If any encounter in the game demands that you spend a significant portion of your time using the weapon skills that a conjured weapon provides, as a class designed with 4 sets of skills to begin with, then I think that's a problem that should be addressed with the weapon skills themselves.

This isn't something I necessarily disagree with. There's definitely an argument to be made that the elementalist, a class designed around its versatility, is actually significantly less flexible because its traits and actual attunement skills don't actually complement/synergize well with each other. There's another thread here about attunements being too specialized, and you're right when it comes to hammer being the only real attempt at a mixed-range kit for elementalists. My only argument is that conjured weapons, as they exist presently, are only weapons that you would swap to in order to use 1-2 skills at best. I think it would be easier to balance these weapons as a pair of skills that work really well, ideally on shorter cooldowns that could be used more frequently, than it would be to create what would amount to 5 separate, cohesive, competitive, but not overwhelming, weapon sets that can theoretically be equipped nearly all at once. I think building conjures to work as I suggest would allow an elementalist to have a complementary pair of skills, potentially more, that can be used when they are pushed outside of the bounds that their weapon skills would allow without becoming so unwieldy that they end up feeling abandoned by ever-changing balance.

At this point I'd rather conjured weapons be reworked altogether. It's become increasingly clear that adding that many potential skills to a class with the most skills available provides a balancing nightmare that has left these skills feeling underwhelming and/or too situational. It might be easier at this point to distill the weapons down into a single skill that conjures the weapon and performs an action, then grants temporary access to a flip-over skill before going on cooldown. That way, the conjures could be balanced around a couple of skills each rather than as an entirely new weapon set. I could see the utility skills becoming something like this: Conjure Flame Axe Conjure a flame axe and throw it at a target area, burning enemies it passes through. The axe remains buried at the target location, periodically burning nearby enemies and granting access to Flaming Return. Flaming Return (Flip-Over) Recall the flame axe to your location in an explosive surge of energy, burning enemies it passes through before exploding when it reaches your location. This explosion damages and burns nearby enemies. Pass-through burning, explosion damage, and explosion burning all increase with how long the axe remained at the target location. Conjure Ice Bow Conjure an ice bow and fire three frozen arrows at a target area that damage and chill foes while making them vulnerable. These arrows melt into a pool of water that periodically heals allies inside and grants access to Deep Freeze. Deep Freeze (Flip-Over) Violently freeze the pool of water, damaging and chilling foes inside while granting allies frost aura. Chilled foes are immobilized instead. Conjure Lightning Hammer Conjure a lightning hammer, damaging and launching your foe with a banishing smash. Successfully landing this attack grants access to Lightning Leap. Lightning Leap (Flip-Over) Leap at an area with your hammer, shattering it in a blast of electrical damage that blinds foes. This skill deals increased damage to disabled or defiant foes Conjure Earth Shield Conjure an earth shield and fortify yourself, blocking all attacks for a period. Channeling this skill grants access to Stone Surge. Stone Surge (Flip-Over) Shatter your fortifications in a surge of energy that bleeds foes around you and grants you resistance and resolution. Bleeding and boon durations are increased per attack blocked. Each of these skills would have anywhere from a 25-45s cooldown. I don't really have any concrete ideas on how the elite could work, but I think it should become Conjure Elemental Greatsword and perform an attack/flip-over skill that incorporates all of the elements rather than just fire. As for the Conjurer trait, I think it could be moved into a master or grandmaster slot, maybe even out of the fire line as well, and be reworked to improve the effects of those skills like the new arcane grandmaster trait is going to do in the next update. The trait could work something like this: Conjurer Conjured weapon skills are improved Conjure Flame Axe: Flaming Return also grants might to allies the axe passes through, as well as to nearby allies when it explodes. This might increases with how long the axe remained at the target location. Conjure Ice Bow: Deep Freeze deals additional damage to vulnerable foes Conjure Lightning Hammer: Lightning Leap grants you quickness per enemy struck Conjure Earth Shield: The boons granted by Stone Surge are shared with nearby allies.

I can agree with most of this. Maybe it's just a struggle for me to see a more focused dual-attunement Weaver. If that were to be the case, then I think each Elemental Training trait (GM minor traits) should also reduce each dual skill of their element by 10%. That way specializing in 2 elements would allow a Weaver to get the full cooldown reduction on all of its skills, while 1 element/arcane weavers still get bonuses to account for increased swap cooldowns. I could see the middle line in Weaver, which is built around speed, incorporating something like this. Yeah I chose to focus it around quickness specifically because it would synergize with Catalyst, but your solution would probably be simpler, more applicable, and fulfill the aggressive sustain trait better. I second this. I love the elemental spellblade feel that Weaver gives, but I do think there is some redundancy in the way every elite spec is designed around mid-to-close range like @Forgotten Legend.9281 said. If Weaver is designed around being a close range skirmisher, Tempest is built to be a front-line support, and Catalyst is really a thematic mesh of the two, it really leaves a glaring hole for anyone trying to fulfill the fantasy of a long range caster. The options exist, but they aren't necessarily being supported by the designs of any ele elite spec at the present moment. As for ele and access to conditions, I just feel like air attunement can fill in some of the conditions that ele has been missing from its overall kit. Confusion is a no-brainer in my opinion, but I can also see torment being applied through skills that are thematically supposed to mess with an opponent's mind. Is it a bit of a stretch? Maybe. Would it make air attunement more consistent and/or flexible, especially on a weapon like pistol where most of its damage is coming from condi? I think so. I've been wanting a proper earth field to be implemented for a while, but I don't know what kind of development is needed to introduce something like that, versus the poison field they gave Catalyst.

I really like a lot of the concepts you've laid out, especially the last two on Tempest and Catalyst. I've always thought Catalyst has been missing mechanics that push its theme, and transmuting auras is a pretty elegant solution. The only things I would maybe push back on a bit would be the way cooldowns would work for Weaver, as it's mechanics require rotation decisions to be made more proactively rather than reactively. I main Weaver and I think it can get tough making split-second decisions sometimes with the global cooldowns being what it is now. I can't imagine what it would be like to lock myself out of a valuable cc or defensive skill, which could end up being 2 attunement swaps away, because I rotated out of an attunement too early. I like the concept of reversing which attunement cooldowns are faster, but I think the numbers you present might be too restrictive for Weaver, forcing them into always taking arcane for the best overall cooldowns. As a Weaver who doesn't like to use fire attunement, I absolutely agree that the damage synergies should be spread across the other attunements. That being said, I think it would be better to just incorporate some of Stormsoul's current effects into a trait like Lightning Rod and just rework or remove the trait altogether. I don't think another damage trait would ever really compete with the consistency of Raging Storm, so I think it should be a more defensive trait that helps with sustain instead. You could add a 5% damage increase to disabled enemies to Lightning Rod, and rework Stormsoul into something like this: Stormsoul Gain quickness (3s) when disabling an enemy. 10s ICD Heal for a percentage of critical damage while under the effects of quickness Doing something like this would create a new defensive niche for the trait, as well as provide access to self-quickness as a trade-off for increased critical damage. Overall, though, I agree with a lot of what you said from a philosophical and thematic perspective.

I've had a similar idea about unravel lately, just as a bonus for Elements of Rage since it's the trait that benefits the most for double attuning. They could tone down the boons from unravel or the damage bonus to compensate. A trait like woven stride, thematically focused on speed, should benefit weavers that want to swap through dual attunement skills faster imo.

I've been following the feedback and I think my thoughts and criticisms of the pistol have been echoed by multiple people on this thread. I feel like the pistol has potential, but its auto-attacks are lackluster and feel disconnected from the bullet mechanics. It also lacks AoE and condition damage on certain skills. An easier fix to the auto-attacks could be to add AOE splash damage or piercing to each one, so each could look something like this: Scorching Shot: this skill now explodes on impact, damaging and burning up to 3 enemies. Soothing Splash: this skill now splashes damage on impact, damaging up to 3 enemies and healing for each enemy struck Electric Exposure: this skill now pierces up to 3 targets in addition to its previous effects Piercing Pebble: this skill now pierces up to 3 targets in addition to its previous effects If you wanted to keep some of them as single target for variety, like Electric Exposure for example, then the power coefficient/additional effects should be buffed in my opinion. In addition, I think auto-attacks could be used to help generate elemental bullets. Doing so would allow them to better connect to the pistol mechanics, as well as creating a new layer of decision-making for the weapon as a whole. This could be accomplished by letting successful auto-attacks grant a unique, stacking effect that would trigger the creation of an elemental bullet when it reaches max stacks: Elemental Armory (effect) (5s): Coalesce elemental magic into magical ammunition. Consume all stacks to create an elemental bullet of the current attunement after reaching maximum stacks. Gaining a new stack refreshes the duration of all stacks of this effect. Stacks do not consume unless there is no active bullet in the current attunement. This effect could have anywhere from 3-5 max stacks, depending on how balance would shake up. Lastly, I feel that certain skills, especially in air attunement, could use an actual damaging condition. I feel that confusion is the perfect thematic candidate for these skills, and I could see a skill like Dazing Discharge being reworked into something like this: Shell Shock: launch a volley of electrified missiles that crash down as lightning strikes at a target area, damaging, dazing, and confusing enemies. Number of strikes: 3 Strike Interval: 1/2s Daze per strike: 1/2s 2 Confusion (6s) per strike Number of targets: 5 Radius: 180 900 range 10s CD P.S. thank you to @Lavafrost.2830 for the inspiration for Shell shock

So I haven't been playing the game for a while and just got back into it a week or so ago to prep for SoTO. I didn't have time to explore any of the expac itself, but I did spend some time testing a few of the new relics in PvE. Overall it seems pretty positive, but I'll admit I have a limited perspective atm I play a lightning rod power sw/d build in ow, and the relic of fireworks seems to work really well. I cycle through air/earth/fire so I can maintain the 10% damage buff pretty effectively. In my testing it pretty easily offset the nerf to swift revenge. Relic of the thief seems to be a much more reliable scholar rune, so there isn't really any DPS loss if you were using the scholar bonus before. Relic of the herald looks like it could be really powerful on my cele boon cata, but I haven't been able to use it yet. My biggest issue with the rework, as plenty have echoed here and elsewhere, is the removal of a lot of the more unique effects as well as the vast majority being tied to healing/elite skills. Too many of the core relics are tied to abilities that some classes can't really take advantage of, and they don't really provide enough variety in the ways they interact with your playstyle. I guess we can only hope that as more relics get added to the game, that they'll look to bring back some of the more unique effects. That being said, I don't think power builds are any worse off than they were before.

With the June balance patch coming in a few months, I thought it would be an interesting exercise to go through the existing trait lines on ele and see where traits can be consolidated/reworked in order to free up room for new traits that could help add new options to bolster different play styles. This thread won't be focused so much on what to replace traits with, but rather on the process of freeing up room for more interesting traits to be added in upcoming balance patches. I've come up with a few to start: Remove Stormsoul and merge some of its functionality with Lighting Rod Stormsoul: This trait has been removed Lighting Rod: This trait now increases strike damage against disabled foes by 5% in addition to its previous effects. I feel like Stormsoul feels like a trait that doesn't really compete well with Raging Storm, and the increased stun duration is pretty niche for a profession with little access to stun as a whole. I think Lightning Rod, which is already a pretty strong trait in its own right, getting a boost to damage that synergizes with disables would be an easy place to consolidate some functionality. I also don't think it would push LR too far with only half of Stormsoul's damage bonus. Remove Earthen Blessing and combine it with Rock Solid Earthen Blessing: This trait has been removed Rock Solid: this trait now decreases the duration of movement-impairing conditions by 20% in addition to its previous effects. While aoe stab on earth attunement is nice, I don't think 1 stack for 3s warrants an entire master slot. Combining Rock Solid with shorter movement-impairing conditions would fit thematically and create a more universal defensive trait that isn't so reliant on earth attunement. The energy gain on Earthen Blessing feels superfluous to me and therefore doesn't really need to carry over. Consolidate Diamond Skin and Stone Heart Stone Heart: This trait has been replaced Diamond Skin: This trait now inflicts 3s of weakness after applying 5 or more stacks of bleeding to foes in addition to its previous effects. This can only affect the same enemy once per interval (6s). This one might not be as well received, but I think Stone Heart is too focused on earth attunement to be worthy of a gm slot. Making this change would still retain some of Stone Heart's crit reduction and thematic defense via weakness' glancing blows, while making it less dependent on camping earth attunement to achieve. The new effect would also synergize with the bleeding from earth traits/skills, while introducing counterplay through condi cleanse. Combine Cleansing Water and Powerful Aura Cleansing Water: This trait has been replaced Powerful Aura: This trait now cleanses 1 condition from allies you grant regeneration to in addition to its previous effects. I feel like this one is a no-brainer. Combining these traits would help boost aura-share builds while freeing up a gm slot to fill a different niche for the water specialization. If it became too strong, they could add an icd to the condi cleanse. Possible Replacements While I'm not sure what I would replace the deleted traits with, I know I'd want them to fill a different niche for each spec than what's already there. I think for air that would mean some type of direct healing tied to crits or even disables if the devs wanted to keep the theme of Stormsoul. For earth there should be more traits that are utility/barrier focused, with a secondary emphasis on condi damage/duration. Water is actually the only one that I have an idea for, which would be a damage boost to create a cryomancer/chill build: Water GM: Chilled to the Bone Inflict chill when you inflict vulnerability. Deal increased strike damage to chilled foes. 6s ICD Chill (2s) Damage increase: 15% So what do you guys think? Are there any other places you feel traits can be consolidated/reworked to make room for new traits? Do you have any ideas for what they could add in their place? Let's discuss.

Not to sidetrack the conversation from the recent nerfs, but since I've now had time to dig into the spec, I still don't really think the augment skills are good or particularly interesting. I'm still not sold on the matching mechanic, and I've suggested ways to rework them before. Borrowing somewhat from my earlier ideas, I'd like for the matching mechanic to be removed altogether and the second part to each skill augment the next jade sphere deployed instead. That way the skills play into the themes of building momentum and catalyzing a reaction, while creating more interesting interplay between the utilities and profession mechanic. An example rework would look like this: Soothing Water Regenerate health and cleanse conditions over time. Applies the Soothing Water status effect. This status effect overrides any active augment status effect. Soothing Water (Status Effect) (8s): Your next jade sphere grants regeneration and cleanses a condition with every pulse. 25s CD Relentless Fire Your attacks and conditions deal increased damage, and your attacks are unblockable. Applies the Relentless Fire status effect. This status effect overrides any active augment status effect. Relentless Fire (Status Effect) (8s): Your next jade sphere deals increased damage and pulses burning. 20s CD Shattering Ice Your successful attacks will trigger an additional strike on nearby enemies that applies chill. Applies the Shattering Ice status effect. This status effect overrides any active augment status effect. Shattering Ice (Status Effect) (8s): Your next jade sphere pulses chill. Enemies who are already chilled will be dazed instead. 20s CD Invigorating Air Gain increased regeneration and superspeed. Applies the Invigorating Air status effect. This status effect overrides any active augment status effect. Invigorating Air (Status Effect) (8s): Your next jade sphere blinds enemies when deployed and pulses vigor. Breaks Stun 25s CD Fortified Earth Block attacks. Gain barrier if the channel completes successfully. Applies the Fortified Earth status effect. This status effect overrides any active augment status effect. Fortified Earth (Status Effect) (8s): Your next jade sphere has a 25% increased radius and pulses barrier. 30s CD Elemental Celerity Reduce the recharge of weapon skills of your current attunement. Applies the Elemental Celerity status effect. This status effect overrides any active augment status effect. Elemental Celerity (Status Effect) (8s): Your next jade sphere grants might, vigor, fury, and protection when deployed. 90s CD

I thought of suggesting fury but then I figured it wouldn't create enough of a trade-off between damage and support. Eles already have ways to maintain plenty of fury on themselves, and aura-share builds can already give out fury to allies as well. I think fury could absolutely work, though.

To start, I think these nerfs are too heavy-handed. I've also been on record on multiple posts in this thread and in others on the ele forums that I'm not a fan of hammer 3 crowding out the potential for a more well-rounded weapon kit, the jade spheres not really sitting well as a new mechanic, and the spec's identity/utilities/trait line needing a rework. That being said, I agree with a few of the posts that have suggested giving Catalyst access to quickness baseline and not having it be a choice to build into might be the reason for these nerfs. Taking these latest patch notes into account, I would suggest a quick(er), short-term solution that could help create room for the reversion of some of these nerfs without the need for a complete rework of the whole trait line and mechanics: Jade Sphere Deploy Jade Sphere (Air Attunement): This skill no longer pulses quickness. It now pulses 2s of vigor. Traits Spectacular Sphere: This trait now grants 5s of swiftness when deploying a jade Sphere in air attunement. Empowered Empowerment: This trait now grants the 1.5% bonus to all stacks of elemental empowerment. In addition to its previous effects, periodically gain quickness while at maximum stacks of elemental empowerment. Sphere Specialist: In addition to its previous effects, grant quickness to a target whenever you grant them vigor. This can affect multiple targets simultaneously. Removing the group quickness from the jade sphere as a baseline would create a trade-off between support and dps Catalyst builds, while opening up room to give self-quickness as the bonus for maintaining max stacks of empowered empowerment. Borrowing mechanically from Kinetic Accelerator on Scrapper to enhance Sphere Specialist would create a reliable source of group quickness that maintains the strength of the jade sphere in air attunement. Using vigor as a substitute could also help play into the enhanced endurance regen of Invigorating Air, while giving Catalyst a bit more evasiveness baseline. Applying the 1.5% bonus to all stacks would also compensate for the 5% nerf to Relentless Fire. Implementing a solution like this could allow for the reduction of the sphere cooldown to 10s or even back down to 5s, or potentially allow for energy to be gained while a sphere has been deployed.