Massimoni.9453

It CAN, yes, but you are a lost cause if you actually do so in the current meta. The rest is correct, Willbender is currently by far the most flexible guard variant. I am - however - fine with some builds specializing in a certain type of DPS, DH just has many things that make it unattractive, which is the biggest problem imo.

HFB? Sure qFB? meh cFB? Oh HELL no

Also don't forget how the last patch nuked cFB and qFB damage so hard that both builds get outclassed by basically every alternative there is to them - which in turn makes both builds obsolete in 99,9% of situations - and they apparently feel like that is totally fine seeing how this patch does nothing to fix this.

You could perhaps have a look into Power Spellbreaker with Hammer. It is an incredibly strong build that is very easy and fluid to play and comes with many insanely strong advantages built right into the kit (like giga CC, self-stability and awesome sustain). It is my personal go-to since firebrand first had the fun and now the numbers sucked out of it. The 0-kit/1-kit version of condition Mechanist may also be something to look into. Check the Hardstuck website for those builds if interested. If you want to go a more supporty route or big DPS in more solo oriented scenarios maybe quickness Harbinger might do the trick for you. It deals almost the same DPS as the selfish pure DPS condi firebrand (even more if the firebrand decided to bring any utility) while offering many benefits, especially permanent quickness. Otherwise you may look into things like Reaper or Herald but personally there is something about those specs I don't enjoy too much, maybe you do though. There are also some LI weaver builds around with crazy high benchmarks but those are most likely quite squishy and therefore won't really align too much with your expectations. TLDR: There are quite a few builds around that you may like, however there is no way of telling in advance if they fill the void which the competitive death of firebrand created. Maybe have a look into the benchmark videos at first and see if there is something which might turn you off about the playstyle of the build. You can also just try the builds without getting pretty much any gear at all except the weapons (you can simply grab white weapons off of NPC vendors if needed). This way you can't check your final performance but you get a near-free initial idea if this is the path you want to pursue. Final Note: Don't delete the guardian especially if you invested quite a few resources into it. At best it gets some uplift in the far future, at worst it may serve you as a storage character.

While I do agree with basically everything you said, could you perhaps go into more detail about what you mean by this? My PoV is the following: Going for maximum damage - as every cFB should anyways - your utility is actually practically nonexistent except for a neat little pull and maybe the odd condi cleanse here and there if people actually camp inside the boss hitbox. When trying to integrate any sort of group support, you already lose a noticeable chunk of DPS, balancing yourself in the progress (and I am talking the previous 42k DPS version here, in its current form nobody in their right mind would even consider playing it over anything else). Letting the support aspect aside, the build just by virtue of its playstyle actually needs a high golem bench to keep up on real encounters (I know this won't happen but its just wishful thinking, the current meta makes absolutely zero sense with all the power builds dominating condi builds even on sustained DPS as the balance team actually haven't got a single clue about balance in the first place).

I am actually completely baffled by that statement. Are you actually saying that full DPS Firebrands can f*ck themselves right from the get-go because they could potentially bring some nice utility?? First of all if you look at the kit cFB has to use to even achieve that pathetic and unrealistic benchmark of <37k, you'd see that it is one of the worst in the game, bringing nothing besides tiny amounts of CC and an okay-ish pull, and don't even start with muh Tomes 2 & 3, after the tomes sharing pages change that argument is completely dead. Secondly FB already drops down to non-competitive DPS if you - for whatever reason - decided to use any of the utility (in which case I'd rather tell my supports to maybe do their job). As far as I remember, even switching out your signet drops you by ~2k DPS which would currently place you at roughly 34,8k DPS... I'd be completely fine if the decision was made harder by shifting more to stuff like the signet, as me as a pure DPS cFB doesn't care about the options of utility. How is that an argument that your guild mate apparently is too bad to play other quickness builds? If he/she doesn't even manage that I highly doubt that he/she takes care of not blasting the quickness cone through the boss into nothingness. The instablast mantras are balanced by their inferior application area which is made harder by the build being melee. There is no going AFK on the boss with 360 radius, you actually gotta pay attention to your positioning if you want your sub to get nice quickness coverage if they aren't all perfectly stacked on the boss. Hmm, maybe the ones that aren't playing HFB, which is basically what this whole thread is about??? Also how is it OP that the build had better gameplay flow before the change? The build required the same amount of button presses if not even more before the change just that its gameplay was very fluid and fun. Why are you even refering to the build in the state before the removal of utility on the tomes? That was a separate step before the gameplay change and literally no one here except for you had even talked about how we wanted that back. As the absolute majority of your answer targets qFB and HFB while the thread is solely about cFB, I don't see how this even belongs here.

I can't tell you how much I love those bubble accusations. If you actually saw my account stats, you'd retract that statement in an instant mate, especially as I can't even remember the last time I've actively played cFB. I AM playing completely different specs, that doesn't mean I can't argue for having my love cFB as a viable alternative. I've had many builds I played and enjoyed on different classes nerfed over the years, yet almost none of them were nuked into oblivion like cFB was the last few patches - that doesn't just refer to its DPS - for absolutely zero reason aside from pleasing the hyper-casual open-world event farming crowd who have absolutely no clue about the build and its downsides.

Well, that explains everything. HFB is the one and only variation of Firebrand I can see where the tome change would be welcome. On DPS specs it gutted the rotation and made it extremely unfun to play thanks to completely unnecessary clunkiness. Everyone I've talked to or been in contact with one way or the other is greatly disappointed in the tome rework and I've yet to meet a single other person except yourself apparently that likes cFB now better than before with the classic, clear and smooth rotation where having to balance pages and guessing cooldowns wasn't a thing.

Besides that I personally don't believe Virtuoso to be borderline OP, those two specs are nowhere near comparable. Let alone that Virtuoso can actually hit the benchmark in real fights thanks to being like 95% ranged and doesn't have to pray for the boss not moving, that it has alot more utility on the full DPS kit than cFB does (which is basically none), has great passive HP regen and stuff like instant, passive invuln which together puts it into a completely different league from cFB - the list goes on, this was just from the top of my head -, which at most can slot one great utility while sacrificing even more of its already extremely lackluster and unworthwhile (if this is even a word) DPS. Heck, Virtuoso probably loses less DPS than cFB when you wanna slot CC or Stability with mantras.

Then that would be a rework that'd actually make sense. Not too sure if that would actually affect cFB tho as you only dip into the Virtue 1 traits anyways and HFB (and potentially qFB - depending on how that'd be implemented exactly) can still use the other tomes and therefore trait effects. Dead traits also aren't anything unseen, more like the opposite. That apparently doesn't result in the optimal DPS though, otherwise the benchmarks would do so also. Now it's just more or less guessing when your skills are back - unless you wanna couple it with Purging Flames off cooldown which you do NOT want to do thanks to boss movement - and if you wanna max DPS you have to dip in and out at what feels random times to get your Tome 1 Skill 2 going. As a cFB main who perfected the playstyle and hit benchmark on a regular, the class just didn't feel fun anymore after the rework, even when just using the old playstyle. Well, circumstances were completely different back then. First of all you still had your other unnerfed tomes back then and also 37k was much more competitive than it is now with everything shooting up to 40k+. Stating the absolute number makes no sense when you don't factor in the alternatives. if everything was doing 5k and cFB 37k it'd be OP as all hell, yet nowadays people just smirk at it. I can just play e.g. Spellbreaker or the likes and have a straight up much better spec. I don't see how that point holds any relevance when the theoretical maximum sucks already. Killing a build when played competitively but saying the LI variant is still okay (which I kinda doubt with all the LI variants around) doesn't help at all. Heck, there are 40k+ LI weavers around which are so easy I doubt anyone would have problems with them.

From what I've seen and my personal opinion, the old QoL mantras were much more liked. Also you are definitely in the minority with your view on the new tomes. Question for personal interest: Do you raid? There doesn't seem to be a kp.me connected to your tag.

Not much to say here for anyone that follows the latest updates and numbers. The last patch ended the life of cFB in instanced content. Now we have a build that is absolute a** to play after they "reworked" aka sucked the fun out of the spec by leaving us with a clunky combination of Engi kits and Thief initiative - probably two of the most disliked mechanics in the game - and a REVERT of QoL (I'm actually curious what has to go through a persons mind to think that this is a good idea) regarding mantras while sitting on a laughable benchmark of sub 37k. The best thing of all is that this benchmark is unrealistically high thanks to the build being melee and relying on long-lasting small-area AoE pulsing - in turn making it probably one of the if not THE worst meta DPS right now. I just don't get what's so hard about decoupling qFB and cFB if you felt that the former was too strong despite its benchmark also being super unrealistic - you would never take the full DPS setup that was taken when producing the benchmark. Like just rearrange the traits so that you'd have to choose between quickness or a big chunk of burning damage boost, easy fix yet you prefer to just nuke the spec as a whole, completely ignoring what else is affected by it. What I therefore want to see assuming you actually want people to enjoy all aspects of a spec: - Revert the gameplay "overhaul" -> IMO a WAY better approach would've been to make you "unlock" the tomes through traits and just keep their mechanics as they were pre-patch. This way you could lock supports out of big damage and make cFB as a DPS do what it's supposed to do with it only being able to access the F1 tome - Reintroduce the QoL on mantras -> not much to say here, I think everyone except hyper casuals that wanna look at some fancy casting animations will agree. There is zero fun in sitting there and doing nothing while your mantra recharges - Decouple qFB and cFB to prevent situations like now -> extremely easy fix yet still not considered. qFB and cFB are too close to each other in DPS which is purely to the detriment of the latter

Wait, so... 38.4k is really all we get after the long awaited patch? I guess it's time to think about quitting the game as a guard main, at least for me after having a first glance of where a few of the other specs land after this update in comparison. If they really wanna get rid of both support tomes for cFB and - at large - qFB (which I guess is R.I.P. now anyways due to Herald buff), your idea of locking the tomes altogether instead (as they weren't used much or even at all, despite what alot of people say) and just reverting the spec to normal playstyle with some juicy DPS buffs would be far better, create a very similar balance yet wouldn't suck the whole fun out of it. Literally no reason to overthrow cFB mains because they had access to some support tomes and now have to adapt the whole rotation.

Did you actually test that or do you just say so? I've done a bit of testing and with full Alac uptime, 100% BD in "Honorable Staff" variant AND blasting tome 1 skill 4 with staff 2 for Area Might, I was still unable to sustain 25 Might. Taking "Honorable Staff" (which you want as it puts you at 100% BD and clearly provides you with more healing output) has regular drops down to ~12-14 Stacks. "Empowering Might" is clearly better in the isolated aspect of Might uptime, plateauing at 25 Might for a few seconds but still drops down noticeably at times of bad RNG, having 30% crit chance just isn't great for such a trait. All tests were done WITHOUT using tome 2+3, which undoubtably would result in even lower numbers.

Well, the monopoly is actually gone now for a while, there are alot of classes which can also provide it. Sure guardian has the highest amount of skills and stacks to do it but does it really matter that much when all you need is one single piece of stability for the utmost of content? I'd much rather just have one piece of stability but get stuff like superspeed or 10 man boon extension like other classes have. The "monopoly on stability" was the only thing that even made it survive for so long, take that away and you will see a whole class die, because - as you said correctly - that's the one thing it has.

We will have to wait and see what we get, currently DPS guard as a whole is dead - and to the people saying it isn't, please tell me where all of them are then -, if you really want to play it to viability, your best and only way at the moment is cFB in fractals with heavy AotJ prestacking but that will still mostly put you below stuff like pSlb. All of the possible ways to play it DPS already suck on paper which only gets way worse when factoring in the heavy disadvantages those classes have compared to other DPS; guardian currently has the WORST top end for DPS across all classes. 100% quickness is very easy actually (on HFB!!!, qFB needs crazy situation awareness in PUGs with mantra playstyle), but after the Empower nerf, personally I don't see a way to even get close to 25 Might uptime anymore which is quite a meme on healer tbh.

First of all I'd be surprised if DH actually benches 35k. Secondly golem numbers are golem numbers. DH is MELEE and has to use TRAPS. DH is also one of the harder builds to actually get to benchmark values as it requires aftercast cancelling on MULTIPLE skills and REQUIRES standing inside the hitbox of the boss. Mech has none of those problems, is far easier to play, almost fully ranged, much more tanky with its golem as meat shield, FAR better base kit on skills, self quickness to cover lacking groups and on top of all that benches MORE. 3k DPS isn't something to negate (especially when real life numbers are more like 8-9k), because if it was most groups could just create setups that purely run supports but they don't.

The highest burst part is true, however Burning as condition actually sucks. The main advantage of Condi classes is that their conditions still tick if you have to do mechanics or cannot attack the boss for a bit. Burning mostly negates this point as by the time you do something else your whole damage will be gone, resulting in a strange position where you lack the instant burst of Power but also don't have the safety buffer of "regular" Condi. Thief, Virtuoso and probably even Harbinger are far better here, they have just a tiny bit slower rampup but actually have conditions that last more than 4 seconds... I have to disagree here. You already established that slotting for utility reduces your DPS - which is great as so many people firmly believe it doesn't - however: 1. Slotting utility drops you down into support-levels of DPS while coming much shorter in the support aspect. If I go out of my way and play a low benchmark build I at least want to make the most out of it. Also the need to rely on guardian for Syg etc. are gone for a few months now (nerf to 5 man and basically every class and their mother receiving access to stability lately) so I don't view that as a valid argument anymore. If you really run into a situation where you even have a DPS guard (a VERY rare sight nowadays) and need to rely on its support, you are either doing a crazy optimized speedrun strat or your supports are sleeping 2. Condi Firebrand itself has NO access to quickness, you have to directly slot for that which comes with big damage loss, so cFB and qFB are two entirely different discussions. It's only EoD specs that - for whatever reason - have inbuilt free quickness now. During the last few days I've seen more Heralds and Scrappers than qFB and rightfully so, because in my opinion they are just better at the moment I don't think so. When one only looks at paper values the difference might seem rather small but recently Condi builds tend to favour bleeding, poison (long lasting, no downside on moving enemies) and ranged, while cFB has to deal with burning (+ lingering, small AoEs at that) and melee. Therefore in real life scenarios you are way more likely to reach the 38-39k of the "average condi class" than you are to reach 36k on cFB. I absolutely suck at cVirtuoso benching around 34,5k something while landing at around 35.8k on my firebrand. During my latest static raid clear I experimented and played cFB instead of cVirtuoso on any encounter I could (it's actually shocking how many roles mesmer can do that guardian can't). Result: Lower numbers across the board, sometimes even by a few k/sec, despite getting higher numbers on paper. In a perfect world cFB and cWB would sit somewhere at the top of the benchmark leaderboard with their only aspect not straight up crowning them the king being that they are rather easy to play. ANet actually made the right step in this direction when they reverted their Mirage nerf, I'd just hope they would expand that.

Yes, yes it is if you care about providing a worthwhile performance to your squad. This is literally the point of discussion for every class on every subforum and rightfully so. It isn't directly about "benching lower" as some classes should just perform better than others, its about a ranking that makes sense. And there is ZERO reason for guardian builds to sit that low on the current ranking considering how all of them are melee with very distinctive disadvantages. I have no problem that my firebrand benches lower than a Condi untamed, I DO have a problem with it benching lower than a pMech or a pSlb. Things that should be considered when balancing a DPS spec which aren't in the current state: Power vs Condi? Condi has to deal with buildup and the occasional cleanse on certain bosses. Has some advantages IF MELEE when enemies are moving but overall should bench higher across the board. Melee vs Ranged? I don't think it is a hard point to make that Melee builds should universally bench higher by AT LEAST >2k/sec if there aren't other aspects having influence on this like P vs C. Being closer to an enemy is riskier and therefore should be rewarded. Especially DPS uptime, an often forgotten aspect, is far better in Ranged builds resulting in better real life numbers. Difficulty of play? In my opinion, harder builds to play deserve a bit higher DPS output because outside of personal enjoyment there'd be no reason to play a harder build over an easier one especially when the easier one performs better... Unique class mechanics/playstyles? There are other unique aspects on some classes that should influence where they sit in the ranking. Scrapper for example basically has godmode outside of one-shot mechanics and has free access to a distance revive which should put it a bit below other specs. Herald still comes with 10 man affection on its class ability. Dragonhunter doesn't have such things yet benches noticeably below those while requiring multiple aftercast cancels through weapon stows to even reach its low benchmark. There are also a few classes that have dodging in their rotation which could put them in dangerous scenarios when they go for max DPS, also a reason to put those a bit higher than others to balance the inequality of golem vs. real encounter. Generally I would do ALOT of changes if I was in charge in the current balance meta with my anchor point actually being pSlb instead of pMech as that supposedly sits in a good spot seeing how little to no people complain about it yet it makes almost as many builds obsolete as pMech does.

Sure you could do that, but you'd have a hard time finding arguments that support your thesis which is actually rather simple in the case of guard.

Could you please elaborate further how "Guardians as a whole are in a great place."? Because when I look at the whole picture, I see the following: DPS guard specs: All of them are at least a few k/sec short of where they should be, that's why you never see them anymore in advanced groups. VIRTUES DH sits at sub 36k, Willbender probably lingers somewhere below that, melee condi guards sit at benchmarks noticeably below some even ranged Power DPS. Power guard buffs were underwhelming at best, no Condi buffs in sight. HFB: Got nerfed patch after patch after patch. Lost almost all of its Aegis access and after the latest Empower nerf can't even upkeep 25 Might despite already having some of the lowest healing output. Syg is basically overkill in the utmost of scenarios, the one stack of stability many classes can provide now is sufficient for almost all content. qFB: Probably the most worthwhile guardian role available. Is now being outDPSed by POWER Herald and POWER Scrapper, the former giving 10 man boon extension and lifesteal and can trade some DPS for the best stability skill in the game while also being a CC god, the latter giving permanent superspeed, is pretty much unkillable and has a distance rez. Both don't have to deal with annoying cone mantras. I don't see the "great place" in those things, but maybe you do. It takes arguments though to convince people who don't believe in things mindlessly.

Changing core stuff would actually be a good thing in this case, as their approach in nerfing qFB by taking down every other condi with it brought cWB, cCore, cDH and cFB down to non-viable levels in performance-focused engame content. I've actually got the chance to play cFB during the last full clear of my static outside of the wings where I can't fulfill my usual roles with guardian (W1, W6, W7, so basically half the wings eksde) and across the board performed WORSE than I usually do on my cVirtuoso DESPITE having full infusions compared to none and being able to play the cFB way closer to benchmark compared to cVirt (~200 DPS off on cFB, >3.5k off on cVirt). They need to just revert their 5% core trait nerf, which would help all these underperforming builds (which still wouldn't make them great, but at least more viable that they are now) and then go on and nerf qFB in particular (if they REALLY feel the need to do so anymore, now that Power Herald is out-DPSing it LOL). Also give it 360 radius like literally everything else and add at least some possibility to provide Alacrity without being in a specific combat scenario. Easy fixes, but won't happen because guardian.

Short answer: Yes, if the group isn't made up of newer players. The build is more of a meme than anything else pretty much, that's why you never see them.

So, you've been skipping the guardian patch notes section for basically all the last patches?

I can't give you any exact numbers but the DPS loss of taking Scepter instead of Axe is very large as your rotation will have a few seconds downtime which have to be filled with auto attacks and having Scepter here instead of Axe will massively drop your DPS as Scepter only does any conditions from the passive of your F1 (which isn't alot). Survivability wouldn't be that much higher anyways, as Scepter just sucks as a ranged weapon. Low range, extremely slow projectiles and very lackluster damage aren't the best things in the world, Scepter is only in the mix as its skill 2 is nice as a background ticking symbol while you go through your F1 tome, so you can ignore the weapon swap for now but I'd really advise you play Axe/Torch if you want to deal any meaningful damage at least in fractals (open world is so easy you could even play staff there). I wouldn't call it "reliable" as its cooldown is just too long to be called that, even full heal firebrand sits somewhere near the bottom in the healing output ranking. The healing isn't the best in the game especially with celestial gear, but just spamming 1 doesn't net you the most healing. I would go for: 5 -> 4 -> 111 (and if you have conditions on you: throw a 2 in there, it cleanses and heals more for the condition cleansed). Depends on what role you want to play and if you want to continue with firebrand (which I can't recommend for now as its only getting nerfed patch after patch, stuff like pMech or cVirtuoso is just better for the stuff you described). If you really like firebrand and want to continue playing it, there are these "meta" options (so basically your only options if you don't want to troll): HFB (healer, goes for full harrier gear; not sure if this can even upkeep 25 Might anymore after the latest nerf), qFB (quickness support, is a mixture of viper and ritualist (not sure but that stat combination might require that you have the End of Dragons expansion) last time I checked; is now outclassed by stuff like quickness herald on many encounters after the latest patch) or cFB (condition DPS firebrand, which is a mixture of viper and sinister gear; isn't worth playing anymore in the absolute majority of endgame content). As a personal side note: You will continue to hear how OP firebrand supposedly is by people in this forum but they mostly only repeat what others told them without any idea about the class itself and HEAVY bias towards their own mains. It's too late now but I'd HEAVILY advise against boosting your first character to 80 (assuming this is your first) as you will miss out on a lot of the slow introduction into content. It's better to just play at least the first character to 80 manually and boost any following characters when you actually know how stuff works.