Xeon.5768

Yes, sorry that I should make it clear that all my discussion here is related to pugs, which are the choice of the vast majority of the people. For one reason, my main has a tryharding static where we never use reaper or scourge, and there is no point in arguing on any of them. For the second, I do still pug with two of my ALTs in raids and fractals, for the past 1-2 years since I got more time during COVID, so I know all the salts, bitters and sweets in pugs about different classes. All my replies under this thread is only about the pug experience, and I mentioned this in other replies but I forgot to do so in the 1st reply to you. I just think the game should be balanced to the point where ppl can play whatever they like to be accepted. For example, ppl playing holosmith will not get rejected just by its class, but only be k1cked for them really doing extremely low dps. As a comparison, reaper does not have a solid spot, in any encounters of raid wings.

Game experience is also one of the crucial factors for game development. Class should be balanced so people can play any of them to get a reasonably good number to be considered by any groups. If players' complaints about experience do not matter to Anet, why would Anet nerf-ed guardian in a series of historic patch, after the OP firebrand was released back then? Secondly, that is not a rigorous rule but there was a patch note that clearly stated Anet's goal of making melee outperforms ranged, at least in benchmark from my understanding of the notes. Let's be real, and irrespective of that, there is no encounter design (in raids) that favors reaper over scourge. If any, can you point me any specific arcdps log or video that shows reaper is better than scourge? I am just concerned having one single good dps build for necro player is unfair, compared to other professions like guard, ranger and engi and even mesmer who have both great condi and pwr builds. As a matter of fact, the new patch has so far created a lot of new homogenous scourge comp in fractals and raids, if you pug any of them recently.

Not being offensive here, but I was just stating the same fact that other ppl in the necro community complaining about playing reaper and getting k1cked or rejected by the pugmanders in raids in the past few years. Yes reaper is certainly playable and you can play reaper to pass most of dps check in raids, with some knowledge of the fights. However, it still does not change anything from pugmanders constantly asking reaper players to switch to others. After the patch change on torment, there is literally no any advantage for ppl to play reaper considering how strong its condi counterpart, c scourge is. Regarding how crazy some specific dps pug record of c scourge can be, you can refer to my post just above the reply to you. I am not defending for any classes cuz I play all dps classes in raids. I am just speaking the status of scourge vs reaper just makes reaper a bottom pick for most of the pve competitive contents. Right now the only place reaper can shine is a few fractal bosses which have extremely short phase and have a lot of adds to help restore life force (e.g. CM98 mama, or even fractal 42 mai trin farm). I feel these two builds should be reworked according to their overall goal of making melee > ranged in dps output.

You are exactly right. 37k on golem is way too excessive. 37k on golem converted to real fights would be insane compared to most other condi classes, due to how ez playing scourge is. It doesn't require specific positioning. It has ranged skills which can make sure you attack the boss (e.g. at dhuum when death mark AoE appears, at deimos when oils appear, fractal CM100 dark AI), almost all the time.

Reaper is NOT a viable dps option compared to condi scourge, in most fights. Wherever in raids you can use reaper, you can use scourge to do much more dmg, and bring a lot of extra utilities that reaper CANNOT. Quoted from another post ""*Making scourge (a completely ranged and safe build) have far higher dmg output than reaper (a melee build that suffers a lot from life force loss due to eating dmg) is simply a joke. This is totally off the point where Anet clearly stated "they want melee to do more dmg than ranged". The idea of "melee > ranged" is well implemented in other professions such as holosmith (sword/pistol>rifle), soulbeast (GS>longbow), dragonhunter (Sword/focus/GS>LB). Why should necromancer be an outlier? *""

Are you serious? What made you draw a conclusion that "It's nowhere near cFB levels of busted dps" For example, in fractals, scourge is doing like 37-42k pug dps on CM100 dark AI, while a good cfb and c slb usually only hits between 30-35k. If you never pug, lemme give you some ideas, the so-called meta class as stated by Discretize is condi slb and condi FB. However, neither cfb nor c slb can beat scourge in pugs for dark AI. There is a huge dps gap between c scourge and cslb/cfb in PUGs (i.e. 7-10k gap and yes that's right because the longer the phase, the more the gap will be, and most pugs cannot push fast due to the use of healbrand). Everyone knows the golem bench but it doesnt reflect what's happening in the real fight. Why? Look at condi weaver and condi holo in real fights. Skorv? Siax? 50-60k opener is achievable by scourge, with slow CC to stack enough condi. Can't hit that number? Lemme tell you. Just press skills off CD (and if you want, do a tiny bit of precasting but it really doesnt matter for sustained dps) and run the right ascended gears with the desirable stats from Snowcrow, runes and sigils. That's all you need. If you tell me you are pulling lower number with scourge than cFB, just follow this simple pug video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKKaJ2HD3PY If the group in this video can be a bit faster (i.e. the cFBs), scourge should secure a 40k+ dps, which is mostly the case, if the rest of the condi dps players can hit 30k+, unlike what's happening in this video. In raids, condi scourge is even more broken in pugs. Apart from the barrier to skip mechs, after the main May 11th patch, it constantly top dps in PUGs, in many bosses from w1-w5, plus w7 qtp while doing kiting. Even in the pwr oriented fight like deimos, scourge can have up to 70k opener (and yes it still loses to DH and slb for opener) and insane sustained dps (around 37k-42k ish, in a normal pug) that no other power classes can catch up. In other pwr-oriented fights like gorse, it beats cFB and all other pwr classes easily if the phase is relatively long. Do you wanna argue that SC members don't run scourge in any speed meta comp runs? Well they are the elitist players who want to push to the extreme using some stacking strategies (e.g. prepatch stacking slb on MO, stacking chrono on Sabetha or KC, stacking guardian on Adina), while you should understand that the balance should be made for the general public, not on the elitist play style. Lastly, I am not saying scourge does not deserve high dps, but having mechanics-broken features, high sustain, and high dps, and braindead rotation, all at the same time just does not make sense. There is a well balanced build named shortbow condi slb. It has braindead rotation, but it only pulls about 32k golem bench. It won't top dps in most raid situations, but it is still on a good standard. This is called balance. Also, making scourge (a completely ranged and safe build) have far higher dmg output than reaper (a melee build that suffers a lot from life force loss due to eating dmg) is simply a joke. This is totally off the point where Anet clearly stated "they want melee to do more dmg than ranged". The idea of "melee > ranged" is well implemented in other professions such as holosmith (sword/pistol>rifle), soulbeast (GS>longbow), dragonhunter (Sword/focus/GS>LB). Why should necromancer be an outlier?

Similar to what you suggested, I already proposed this in one of my very early discussion about removing the barriers. Unfortunately I got a lot of dislikes so I think it might be a good starting point to reduce its effects, rather than completely remove it. Once done, this limited amount of barrier can still allow new players who enjoy braindead play (rather than piano play) to kick start any hardcore modes which require a lot of thinking. Personally I dislike effect of barrier because it negatively impacts the motivations of practice. We all know barrier is not only broken in pvp competitive, but also in raids and fractals bosses, to skip much mechs. So I suggest to reduce its coefficient as a starting point, because removing it completely might lead to new players crying and complaining about mechs being too hard.

The suggestion is good in general. This class indeed creates much of the issue in pvp. In short, statistically, a PUG group having a scourge will have much higher chance to win a group without scourge. This applies to most PUGs, not static groups who may run meta comp and be very experienced. In addition, playing scourge below plat 2 does not require much skill, including how to rotate the skills, or when to time the burst, or when to interrupt the enemies by watching animations. What most of scourge players do is simply stand still at the nodes and apply massive barrier and conditions at the same time, and try to sustain as much time as possible to death. So the question is, what is the point of allowing a class like a immortal god, that literally does not encourage people to try and discover new builds, as well as improve their skills? If playing a braindead class is OP, many players would enjoy this scourge easy win. How is it fair to other players who may spend more efforts on other harder classes such as thief who is so squashy and requires perfect timing to burst and rotate, or otherwise going festa within a sec. Again, I am talking about pug matchmaking in this case, which is the vast majority of the people's choice. Any static group who are above platinum 2, and experienced with appropriate comp, and have high skillset is not within the scope of my discussion. In addition to the suggestions provided, you may consider making barrier more tied to the healing power attribute of the scourge, and also reducing the barrier coefficient that scourge can grant to allies.

Yea indeed. Make all the condition classes as close as condition weaver/holosmith plz. This is the logic of maintaining condi at 40-50k golem bench, while pwr builds are doing 33-39k.

A real gamer. Every mesmer player should read and try to comprehend the logic of what this guy tells. Edit: An introspection moment of a player who previously tried to insist on braindead-rewarding playstyle but finally realized where the issue was. Glad to see that move overall.

Why would a popular site publicize a build that is known to be broken at the current state, and deem to be nerfed in the near future? It is a waste of time to write lines of words for it, given that it should and must be nerf-ed later.

Good showcase thx for telling the truth again. I am just waiting for those mirage players who enjoyed the braindead play and reported me for telling the truth about a braindead class doing god tier dps with excessive amount of autoattacking. Please report me again and prevent me from telling the truth.

Unfortunately this is true for many other classes/builds, not only theif. Not all other classes are like guardian, as you know. The recent balance of guardian regarding Ashes of the Just just indicates Anet really has a good understanding of this class, which is not the case for most other classes/builds.

What you explained I agree with a lot of your bullet points and the general comparisons of cDE with other classes. However, dps-wise I dont know how you drew the conclusion that "its damage is in a very poor place". Maybe you can elaborate more with DPS logs here. In my daily static or pugs runs, this class is still doing almost always god-tier top 1 dps in fractal CM100. And yes as you mentioned it brings no CC, but the extra supreme dps it brings to the group is massive that no other members should consider rejecting it as a dps class. In CM99 and 98, with precasting of 3 venom skills at the mistlock, it is still more OP than almost all other pwr classes in burst opener (e.g. 80-120k on skrov, and bear in mind its precast requires a little effort, unlike the pre-patch pwr DH/weaver, not mentioning the precasts of these two have been almost destroyed due to channeling skills disabled during build temp swap). In raids, cDE has more restrictions on positioning but still its performance is excellent (just may not be not top 1 depending on the situations). At the current patch, in general condition classes can do quite well for even pwr-oriented encounters (such as VG, deimos) in pugs, where phase time is relatively long. Surely in an elitist group, pwr classes will still be used for pwr-oriented encounters, but for vast majority of the weekly pugs, condition classes are just very acceptable in any encounters right now. You can claim for more CC or self-boons sustain to be added, but not DPS, according to my recent raid/fractal experience with this class. Or if we follow the main idea of Anet's recent patches, smoothing its burst significantly and buffing the sustain dps accordingly is also a way to go.

I am actually looking forward to any thoughts from a non-skilled player who enjoy the braindead play. I don't have many chances to get close to it.