Sajuuk Khar.1509

Calling/associating dragons as "snakes with wings" goes back centuries. Likewise, the Svanir totems of Jormag show Jormag as a snake. Its just visual syalization. Jormag and Primordus vanished because they annihilated each other in what amounts to a matter/anti-matter explosion. Two completely opposite powers met and cancelled each other out.

Well this is just patently untrue Primordus and Jormag annihilated each other in what amounts to basically a matter/antimatter explosion. Unlike the other Elder dragons who just got lasered/stabbed to death. The manner in which Jormag and Primordus died is fundamentally different then the other 4 dragons. Primordus' minions were all artificially made with his magic. Unlike other Elder Dragons, Primordus didn't care about corrupting living things. All of his minions were JUST animated rock/fire. Without Primordus around to keep powering them, they have no biology to fall back on to keep living. Similarly, most of Jormag's most powerful minions were basically nothing but animated ice blocks, even if they had biology to start with. With Jormag's death theres nothing to keep the ice blocks powered, and thier biology isn't able to do it by itself. Icebrood Saga also makes a point that Ryland/Braham aren't normal champions. They're champions like The Commander and Caithe. Both of which have given Aurene a significant advantage over the other Elder Dragons for the power they provide. Unlike other champions like Drakkar, which are just mind controlled thralls with no real free will, Braham, Ryland, and Caithe, are not corrupted, they're connected as Caithe points out back in LWS4 when she gets crystalized. They're treated differently because they are fundamentally different as stated back in LWS4. There's plenty of explanation for why things are different, and many people other than myself have pointed this out before. You just chose to ignore it seemingly because you want the story to have issues, rather than because it actually has issues.

None of those are how they handled the topic.

Game specifically tells you it can't be defeated normally try to defeat it normally WHY DOES THIS WORK!!!! Hmmmm.... mystery.

Jormag didn't pick Ryland to fight in his stead. That was never Ryalnd's purpose. Ryland ends up doing that because Braham goes off and forcibly makes himself Primordus' champion, but that was AFTER Ryland had already become Jormag's Champion, and not something Jormag could've foreseen. Jormag made a Champion after Ryland because it was imitating what Aurene had done, as Aurene having a Champion(The Commander) allowed her to become far more powerful then the other Elder Dragons, and Jormag was looking for ways to get power. Having Ryland as a Champion allowed Jormag to recruit a big army between the end of Jormag Rising and the beginning of Champions, and gave it a public figure which it could use to interact with the other races in a more direct manner. Like how Ryland and Jormag used the Asura's hatred of Primordus to get them to fork over the data. And as Living World Season 3 clearly stated, Jormag and Primordus are each other's weaknesses. There was no way for the battle to end EXCEPT them directly confronting each other. Jormag was trying to get more power so, when that time came, it could defeat Primordus, while not dying itself. Jormag only loses in Dragonstorm because we, the player, help even the power level between them. Going into Dragonstorm Jormag had more power, and would've survived the direct battle between the two. As Aurene states/as what happens if you fail Dragonstorm. I don't recall Jormag ever saying they would thaw immediately after the war is over. All Jormag/Ryland say is https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Frozen_(lore) Likewise the Spirits of the Wild, and the commander, make the same statements https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Frozen_(lore) https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Jormag's_World

This right here shows how really confused you are. Primordus woke up in 1120 AE, the game starts off in 1325 AE. Primordus had been awake for a long time beforehand. Balthazar didn't awaken Primordus with Omadd's Machine. The machine put Primordus, and Jormag, back to sleep by draining their powers into Balthazar. Jormag never tried to manipulate us into killing Primordus for it. Jormag tried to manipulate us into joining its side, as it was going to fight Primordus, but it never tries to push the entire responsibility of fighting Primordus on us.

I have re-read his comments. He says nothing of the sort. This seems more like trying to find something to be offended by then him actually saying anything like that. No, rarely is anything ever 100% someone's fault. But compared to the past deaths it is far more the Commander's fault then those were. By miles. Also a good acknowledgement of stories outside of core/HoT, which the game has been way to obsessed over. The truth is the truth, regardless of how much time passes. If someone says Eir said X at some point in the game, and she didn't, then pointing that out isn't obsession, its pointing out facts. Again, volumes.

He really doesn't have that kind of attitude at all. Not sure where you are even getting that from. And past deaths like Eir/Treherne/Demi don't really work because that wasn't really the result of our decisions. Except that is what happened, as clearly evidenced by anyone who reads the thread. The fact that basically 2 years later you're still this obsessed over it really speak volumes. Its an entirely unhealthy mindspace to have.

https://dd.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/13ri90h/the_more_i_think_about_it_the_more_chulmoo_being/jlkqjyd/?context=3 I ignored none of your points, they were just baseless/nonsense, as pointed out many times, and even after that was pointed out all you did was keep repeating them as if they had any merit when they didn't. Leaving because you made no attempt to consider that you might be wrong, and just kept going on and on about already debunked points, isn't abandoning the conversion. A conversation needs two people to happen, you weren't willing to participate. So I left the non-versation once it was apparent you had no interest in having a conversation, and just wanted to loop things endlessly.

Cinder wasn't chosen because she was important to the commander though. Posting about it once in a blue moon isn't spamming. Perhaps you should look up what that word means. And you don't get to brow beat people into silence just because you think you won a conversation that you didn't. That's rude, uncalled for, and very unsportsmanlike.

The monster in the ocean is in the ocean, not the Jade Sea. the Oni has no relation to the Deep Sea Monster that we know of.

It makes perfect sense to have her included. Yes she did bad things, she also sacrificed herself to try to save everyone. Any person who has any sort of empathy for others can recognize her actions there as being heroic, even if her past actions were not. The world doesn't exist in a black/white duality. Its full of nuance.

Except even back in Drizzlewood you could find Jormag's blood as part of an achievement that specifically called out that the two had battled in the past. Ahh yes, the conversation where you didn't actually say anything, or provide any evidence, that disproved anything yet still like to refer to because.... reasons?

Except Jormag never went from "super smart, manipulative, creepy, and intimidating to super dumb" much less in the blink of an eye. Everything Jormag did up until Dragonstorm was part of a plan to build power for itself, so it could face Primordus head on, and defeat him without being destroyed in the process. By the time Dragonstrom rolls around it has done just that, and is ready to face Primordus head on. Aurene even says during Dragonstorm that so long as Jormag is connected to Ryland, and the Frozen, they will keep Primordus cowed. And if you manage to fail Dragonsotrm Jormag beats Primordus and gloats about bringing in an age of frost. There is nothing "dumb" about what Jormag does at any point. They set up a plan to gain power to beat Primordus, enacted it, gained the necessary power, and then went to use it exactly like they planned.

Given that the Gyala Delves map is all about Mist Demons, and this concept art at the end of the recent blog was named "demons" according to That_Shaman, we're probably doing a Mists/Demons focused xpack next. Wouldn't be surprised if Anet brought in some of the GW1 Utopia lore/concepts also. In terms of larger plots that are still left open in GW2 theres like The Risen threat in Drowned Kaineng The Deep Sea Monster Lyssa Mist Demons So its not surprising we're going into Mist Demon territory. Possibly leading into a string/trilogy of these mini-xpacks about the Mists, the Gods, the Old gods, etc. With the Elder Dragons dead, the Mists are the next logical step in terms of escalation.

Thats not how that math works out chief 1st quarter is Jan/Feb/March 2nd quarter is Apr/May/June We had a story update first quarter, and if the 2nd one comes out in June then its still in the 2nd quarter, so its still quarterly. There is no skip.

By this logic neither Jormag or Primordus were hoarding magic either, because they bonded with Ryland and Braham instead of corrupting them. Bonding with one being =/= sharing magic as a whole. Never has been. This isn't some "all or nothing" situation. Putting the smallest of leaks in a massive tank isn't going to stop it from taking in far more water than it leaks out. Nor does it change that the tank is fundamentally meant to hold water, not give it out. Jormag never tried to share bits of its magic in IBS. It bonded with Ryland(covered above), but its overall actions was still just hoarding. Be it with the Spirits of the Wild, the Frozen, etc. And no, the level of intelligence is not directly tied to how much magic they hoard. Soo-Won had the most amount of magic within her of any of the Elder Dragons we faced, and yet was still displaying moments of clarity during the final battle, and after. Kralkatorrik had the most amount of displayed magic of a dragon we fought before Soo-Won, and, as the trip into his mind showed, he still had some sanity left. Though far less than Soo-Won showed. Zhaitan had the least amount of magic by the time we faced him directly, yet showed no intelligence/reason beyond being a rampaging beast. Mordremoth had more magic than Zhaitan, and yet was obviously mentally stable enough to speak intelligently, and hold some form of conversation. Jormag and Primordus were at equal levels of power when they destroyed each other, yet Jormag was far more intelligent and sane than Primordus, who was nothing but a mindless, rampaging, monster. If Elder Dragon intelligence was directly tied to the amount of magic they hoarded then all of them would've started out equally intelligent at the beginning of the dragon rise, and have been largely equally mindless by the time GW2 begins, yet nothing suggests as such. Some, like Primordus, were just mindless beasts from the get go. Collecting more magic leads to greater torment, but individual mental fortitude, and ability to cope with that torment, plays a factor in how long an Elder Dragon is able to remain sane while afflicted by it. Primordus had obviously been mentally broken in a previous cycle, as evidenced by it just being a big dumb rampaging monster this whole cycle. Even when it had far less magic. Magic leads to torment, torment leads to mind breaking, but once the mind is broken its shot... getting to a lower level of magic isn't going to fix that. Thus amount of magic =/= how intelligent they are. Kralkatorrik created things like Branding, Empowering, Recharging, and Pulsating, Crystals, to help its minions. Hell, I think most Elder Dragons are seen using their magic to make items or w/e to help their minions. That's no more "sharing" magic than Elder Dragons are "sharing" magic when they pump magic into their minions to make them more powerful/smarter. Except we know Glint had seen events far beyond her own death, and past Kralkatorrik's death, leading to prophecies like the one Ogden mentions in regards to Aurene needing to eat Joko to be ready to fight Kralkatorrik, and Dulann's comments about Glint not sharing all she knew of what happened after Kralk's death to prevent it from affecting the outcome. If she could see that far into the future, she probably knew about needing magic filtration. If Mother's Lament was already there then Tyria was already there, or at least one small bit of it during its early formation phase. We've seen lifeless rocks floating in the void before, like the one we land on during the random teleport sequence when fighting Commander Lonai in LWS4. She also didn't create the magic system. Magic existed, as void, before hand. As did the various domains. She just split the domains from each other, as Kuunavang mentioned. Likewise, she created the Elder Dragons to split magic, which allowed life to grow on Tyria. But she didn't create the rest of life on Tyira. Or at least that isn't said. All other life grew naturally So she didn't make Tyria, the magic system, or life. She helped in its formation, but she didn't directly make any of them. Nature made them all. You're missing one major fact in this comment, and your following long explanation... and that is, as far as we know, Tyria's magic system is basically a closed system. It isn't just getting tons of new magic pumped into it from outside places like the Mists(not to say zero new magic is entering the world). The Elder Dragons eat the world's magic, go to sleep, and the magic seeps back out of them until they're close to being out of magic. This causes them to get hungry, wake up, and eat it all over again. If there being simply "too much" magic in the world is what causes all the giant ley-infused monsters, and the giant running man ley-anomoly then.... where exactly were these things back in GW1 when the dragons had been asleep for 10,000 years, and the majority of the magic they had previously consumed had already filtered back out into the world? Where were these things in the previous cycle, before the dragons woke up and the Dwarves/Seers/Mursaat/Forgotten/Jotun fought them? They didn't exist as far as we saw/heard.. Again, to use the lake/river analogy. A lake/river can hold a certain amount of water, just like the world holds a certain amount of magic in it. However, trying to just immediately dump that much water into a lake/river can cause it to overflow its banks. It needs to be added, and processed, over time, via the flow of the lake/river into other lakes/rivers/bodies of water. The flow of water is important to maintaining the level of a lake/river. Tyria's magic cycle is the same. The magic needs to be flowed for it to not go crazy. But the previous Elder Dragons only flowed the system in incredibly slow increments of 10,000~ years. Leading to issues if magic is just dumped into the system in mass at once. Aurene flows the magic at a more constant/consistent basis. The original idea was to have 3 Elder Dragon equivalents, Glint, Vlast, and Aurene, maintain the system. Unless you want to explain who the other 3 were?

Yes, but it isn't as good as stuff like good water filters, which was the point.

Well Soo-Won didn't filter and share magic like Aurene did. She hoarded magic within herself. This is why the Void began manifesting in her in the first place. The only magic she "shared" was in the same way other elder dragons did. Power to minions/items to help them take over. Except she didn't make a ton of hostile minions, she chose peaceful ones like Kuunavang. It was Joon, and her reactor, that attempted to siphon and filter the magic in her to keep her stable. But the progressive buildup of magic from each Elder Dragon's death wasn't able to be kept up with by the reactor. Leading to it building up in Soo-Won, and causing her to go voidy. Soo-Won is a naturally forming entity in the universe. Aurene was purpose built by Glint, The Forgotten, and the Exalted, to be an organic machine to filter magic. You might as well ask why dirt doesn't filter water as well as any half way decent purpose made water filter. Things designed specifically to do something tend to do it better than things that are not. Soo-Won wasn't made to do anything, she just exists. Soo-Won didn't make the world. As she states, she created the Elder Dragons, and split the domains of magic among them, at Mother's Lament. Mother's Lament being one of the first pieces of the world to manifest before she split the magic domains, and thus, before the Void was dealt with. She never claims to have made it herself. She just balanced magic which allowed the world to continue to grow and life to begin evolving on Tyira. As was explained by Sadizi back in PoF, the problem with the magic cycle was that it worked previously on a cycle of extremes. The Elder Dragons draining Tyria to a near magic-less state, only for it to seep out of them and for Tyria to return to a magic high state, rinse repeat. Aurene fundamentally changed that entire process. To build upon your water example. Imagine the magic of Tyria being like a river, or a stagnant lake. With the Elder Dragons of old they consumed the river/lake to its bed, then the water slowly seeped out of them over time to full it back up. Killing an Elder Dragon is like immediately dumping a massive amount of water into a river/lake all at once. Even if that quantity of water moved through the river/lake normally over time, the sudden, and immediate, dumping of water in a shot period can cause its banks to overflow. Like how magic was before Aurene's ascension. Its like the water cycle of Earth, but if the water cycle only happened once every 10,000 years, and took all the water at once. This is why 6 Elder Dragons were needed, no one being could contain that much water(magic) within themselves. Aurene fundamentally changed that. Instead of taking all the water at once, she cycles and filters it all the time like the water cycle on Earth works. Magic is being constantly "evaporated"(removed from the system), "condensated"(purified by Aurene), and "precipitated"(returned back to the system). There's the same amount of water(magic) in the world, it just flows more regularly and consistently. Instead of going from world-wide drought, to 30 days/nights global flood. Sadizi also clearly says, as you quoted they theorized they needed multiple entities to achieve this. It was not stated as fact that they needed more than one. They just guessed they did. They didn't know for sure since, obviously, it hadn't been done before. Glint, the Forgotten, and the Exalted, all admit to working on limited information since they aren't all knowing beings. Glint didn't even tell the Exalted all she knew of what would happen after Kralk's death, for fear of possibly messing things up. So not even her chosen people were working with the limited knowledge she had. They were working on even less. And I recall Glint musing on what the Forgotten may have told the golds and vice versa, so they raise the question of what the Forgotten were doing behind the scenes to aid in this endeavor that neither Glint nor the Exalted knew about.

Comparing to Zhaitan isn't saying much because most of core wasn't even about Zhaitan. It was about various threats at various levels, and involved most of the Elder Dragons up until the attack on Claw Island. Even after Claw Island, most of the story was about collecting allies, and doing a "ground pound" war in Orr against Zhaitan where we learn very little about the dragon itself other than it eats relics via its Mouths, and was tapping into the Artesian waters. There was very little real development on Zhiatan back in core. Zhaitan probably the least actual development on the dragon itself, just a large exposure of its minions. Looking to the other Elder Dragons, their stories shouldn't have been as long in the first place. Since we already did the process of unifying everyone to fight the dragons back in core, we don't need to do it again. Likewise, each next Elder Dragon should have a shorter story than the last, as accumulated knowledge across the game means we have less to learn/figure out about each one, and the larger cycle.

The Forgotten said we needed something to replace the fallen Elder Dragons, we got that with Aurene. Nowhere did the Forgotten say we needed 6 entities to replace the 6 elder Dragons. Only that we needed something to do the job they did. When Aurene ascended to an Elder Dragon, all instances of the unbound and volatile magic went away, as did the ley enhanced super monsters. Her ascension was able to negate the negative side effects of Zhaitan, Mordremoth, and Kralkatorri's deaths. The fact these things didn't reappear, even after Jormag and Primordus died, shows her ability to balance the all was great enough to even account for those two leaving the picture as well. And the issue was that is Soo-Won died with all the void in her, it would unleash upon her death and destroy the world. As stated in the "Extraction Point" story chapter of EoD, the plan was to use the extractors to rip the Void out of Soo-Won, at which point it would go into Aurene and be purified. Aurene isn't really affected by the Void because "prismatic dragon" and all. They even mention during the final fight how the Commander(at this point power infused by Aurene) is absorbing the Void as they fight the Elder Dragon Void manifestations. After ripping enough of the Void out they hoped to be able to save Soo-Won, but she ended up having to die since she was too far gone.

We couldn't allow Balthazar to kill Kralkatorrik because we had nothing to replace any of the dead Elder Dragons at the time, and any further dragon deaths after Mordremoth would've upset the balance too much, and caused Tyria to be doomed. When Kralkatorrik died, Aurene immediately absorbed his power, ascending to an Elder Dragon. But, unlike the other Elder Dragons, she filters and cycles magic, instead of hoarding it. This allowed Jormag and Primordus to die with no real issue as well, since Aurene was controlling the magic balance. This was explained back in Path of Fire. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Way_Forward And the "magic that would've ended the world" wasn't contained in jade. Some magic went into the jade after Zhaitan's death, but the vast majority of magic never went into the jade. It went into Soo-Won. I'm not actually sure why you think the jade saved anything. Joon was pumping magic from Soo-Won into the jade, which kept Soo-Won more stable for a little bit, but that didn't massively help save the planet of anything.

Yes. The other Elder Dragons consumed, and hoarded, magic in giant cycles of feast, and famine. Aurene doesn't eat up magic, she filters and cycles it.

Well, according to EoD dialogue, it did go through the ley lines to reach Soo-Won. After Aurene ascended at the end of LWS4, and magic levels around the world went back down to normal, we still see floating volatile magic spheres in areas where Aurene has used her magic. Like in the purified Brand in Grothmar. Likely due to the amount of magic she posses/puts out when using magic. We only really see the magic in the sky immediately around where Jormag/Primrodus died, likely a similar result of the sheer amount of magic their death's released. The vast majority of it likely did go underground, either immediately after their deaths, or shortly thereafter. What we saw just being an immediate, short term, side effect of so much magic being released in one area. I would guess it was mostly just "visual cue" for players to give a hint at what was coming next.

1/3. Nope. You're conflating two entirely different situations as being the same thing. As stated back in like, LWS3, when an Elder Dragon dies its magic goes into the ley-lines, and then is naturally drawn to the other Elder Dragons who absorb it. In neither Zhaitan or Mordremoth's case was there an Elder Dragon right there to absorb most of it before this had a chance to occur. In Kralk's case Aurene was RIGHT THERE to just directly absorb most of it before this process could happen. Think of Elder Dragons like sponges full of water(magic). When one dies the water(magic) is normally released just directly onto the countertop(world/ley lines). There it begins flowing in all directions until it runs into another sponge(Elder Dragon) that soaks up the water(magic). In Kralk's case the majority of the magic never reached the countertop(world/ley lines) because there was another sponge(Aurene) right there to just suck up most of the water before it ever reached it. What little water she didn't suck up went back onto the countertop(ley lines) but Jormag and Primordus were the closest sponges, and were able to suck up what water(magic) remained before any could travel south to Soo-Won. 2. And, as mentioned back in the game, when an Elder Dragon dies its magic goes into the ley-lines, where its then naturally drawn to the other Elder Dragons. With all the other Elder Dragons dead, the moment the magic hits the ley lines it would start going south to Soo-Won. Since she was the only other Elder Dragon alive besides Aurene at the time.