Sajuuk Khar.1509

It doesn't, not was it. It was just his goal as a Sylvari with a Wild Hunt. Bringing the Pact together was however part of the steps needed to accomplish his Wyld Hunt. Well he is the one who brought it together, and is the supreme leader of the Pact(Pact Marshall) and the one who dictates where it goes and who it fights. So it pretty much is. Since Claw Island where Zhaitan's minion killed your mentor. And the Pact's goal at the time was to stop Zhaitan. That doesn't necessarily mean killing him, it means preventing him from being able to carry out his plan to invade tyria. Which they accomplished throughout the campaign on Orr. Killing Zhaitan at this point is just a bonus since its already been starved, blinded, and its forces brought to ruin.

We do not get a 1:1 exact viewpoint on everything the Commander does, sees, or says. I highly doubt the Commander didn't talk to Zafirah for the time between Dragonfall and EoD especially with the Pact's continued efforts against the dragon minions, Zafirah's rallying of the remaining Zaishen, many Ziashen joining the Crystal Bloom, etc

Well there was like that Charr that was seemingly traveling back in time at random points.

Looking at PoF, and LWS4, I do wonder how much more we will get, if at all, of the areas we already visited in Cantha. PoF introduced the Crystal Desert, Desolation, and Vabbi, and left large parts of each open. yet LWS4 didn't even really attempt to expand on any of those 3 areas. Likewise, both Istan and Kourna had space for multiple more maps, yet also didn't get completely covered in LWS4. With Anet making comments about expanding maps over time, that means at least IBS style maps like Bjora and Drizzlewood, maybe even LWS2 maps with like Dry Top. I could see a situation where Cantha only gets like 2 more maps added it to, one covering Drowned Kianeng, and the other being set in the Battle Isles or something, to cover the Risen/Purist plots, and the Deep Sea Mosnter plot.

Doubtful given that theres like a dozen other current issues in the GW2 plot that need resolving.

Blish allowed himself to be eaten by Kralkatorrik so we could track his movements. He was never left in the Mists, his body is just somewhere in Kralk's cavernous mass in Dragonfall. East of Ascalon is Charr lands. IIRC its said Blood Legion territory extends over there. East of Elona is a coastline.

Anet was spending most of the time they would normally be working on new LW episodes to re-implement LWS1, as well as all the other QoL/balance updates we've seen since EoD, in prep for the Steam launch. Making the game as is better so more Steam people stay was more important than making new content for awhile. Though there was a pretty large gap between HoT(Oct 2015) and LWS3E1(July 2016) of like 9 months. We've just hit 10ish months since EoD came out. So it hasn't been too much longer at this point. Though it will be by whatever time LWS6E1 comes out.

Where does it say anywhere that you bought "the entire game". The expansions say nowhere that buying one gets you "the whole game", just the base game(which is free) and those expansions. Even on steam the only thing that mentions the "complete" game is the $99 Guild wars 2 - Complete collection, which DOES have every expansion and living world episode tied into it.

I mean the god plot is pretty much the only major, super high level, plot thread in GW2 left open. Its not surprising they're hinted at doing the thing they've repeatedly set up since like PoF.

There sure are, ranging from logistical issues, to common historical misconceptions about early boat travel. The real world civilizations that managed to get very far with boats only did so because they had a very strong naval culture, and were, for their time, incredibly advanced in the art of sailing(see the Norse). The majority of ancient cultures didn't get very far with boats because they lacked the ship building skill, and knowledge, to do so. The Asura, Charr, and Norn, haven't demonstrated such a level of naval skill. Likely owing to the fact they don't(or at least not originally for the Asura) live near the oceans in the first place, and thus don't/didn't need them. That's actually something of an oddity in Guild Wars' setting. Outside of humanity, and the Kodan, there don't seem to be many land based races with naval traditions among them. Besides like a one off mention of the Forgotten having boats. Though I suppose that is just Anet avoiding having to deal with the issue of "well if there was, why haven't they run into the Tyrian races yet?" and having to establish lore for far off places long beforehand. That being said... we know the Asura, thanks to their gateways, were spread as far north as the Far Shiverpeaks to as far south as Cantha, and the Charr's empire dominates an absolutely massive portion of the central/western-central, Tyrian super-continent landmass. That's actually one thing that really intrigues me about the Charr. Based on the old world map from LWS2, and assuming the Ash and Blood Legions have roughly similarly sized territories as Iron, that would put the eastern end of the Charr's Empire right smack dab at the midway point of the Tyrian super-continent. Humans have been as far north as Janthir, and as far west as the western coast of the Maguuma. but only the Charr have been so far east. I do wonder why we haven't heard much of anything about Charr conquests to the east, and why they seem so focused westward, even pre-dragon rising. Is the land out east unsuitable? Was it the thrill of the fight against the Forgotten and later humanity? Is there just nothing really threatening out near the center of the continent, so they focus mostly on the west? (mind the various draw lines the white circle is the Charr territory) https://i.imgur.com/sxTtIto.png

No one said this, in fact, my argument repeatedly has been they would've started evacuating people long before we got to EoD, so they wouldn't need to just yonk all of humanity into the mists in an instant. Please don't resort to petty strawmans. Again, no one said entire nations would be saved. Just like its unlikely the gods saved all humans from their old homeworld, I never argued they would save every last human, or even most of them. In these sorts of situations saving everyone is an impossibility. You just need to save enough to keep the gene pool from tanking out at a minimum. And even that isn't that much. I've stated multiple times the Forgotten need not have told the Gods the entirety of their plans,, or even most of it. And again, THE FORGOTTEN DIDN'T MAKE THE PLAN GLINT DID! Why are you removing Glint out of the picture to try to focus entirely on the Forgotten who aren't the originators of the plan in the first place? Well no The walls had a new dozen names on them each. NPCs in HoT repeatedly mention most of the Pact's forces survived the crash. The Pact didn't appear in LWS3, PoF, and most of LWS4, and EoD because those weren't Pact issues in the first place. Those regions were also really far away from the Pact's core territory(Tyria) and thus they couldn't mobilize much of their forces there easily even with airships. In case you forgot the Pact exists to combat the Elder Dragons, and they tend to stay out of non-Elder Dragon affairs. Lazarus, the White Mantle, Balthazar, Joko, and the Aetherblades, aren't the Elder Dragons, and thus aren't the Pacts problem. Which is why they weren't there. And it takes time to fly hundreds, thousands? of miles from Tyria to Cantha to show up for the Dragon's End fight. The conversation has never been about just the few hours the void was going crazy in EoD, and I've stated as such multiple times. Funny, I was going to mention Star Trek Online as well in reference to your comments about the Pact. In STO, during the Delta Rising campaign, the Khitomer Alliance plays little part in the overall events outside of sending a handful of ships to the Delta Quadrant to assist the native Delta quadrant races in fighting the Vaadwaur. The reason? Because even with instant teleportation Iconian Gateways going through the Dyson Spheres to the Delta Quadrant there is too much of a resource/manpower bottleneck to just do everything themselves. They need to rely on local allies for most of the heavy lifting in the campaign, which is why they put so much effort into recruiting like a dozen Delta Quadrant races into the Delta Alliance. The same is true for the Pact. Even at full power the Pact has no reasonable means to project its power over such the distances as Elona and Cantha are from Tyria, and need to rely mostly on local forces in those regions to do most of the heavy lifting regardless of its own power back in Tyira. This has nothing to do with a weakness, or lack of manpower, on the part of the Pact, but simple logistics.

There's nothing to miss there. The Aetherblade ships were falling apart because any machine will fall apart, even in real life, after years of constant use without regular maintenance. That has jack all to do with the Mists. And we know theres plenty of solid ground in the Mists from all the god realms, and other Mist realms we've seen. So its not like you NEED to fly around them either. Ditto with supplies. The Aetherblades were constantly running out of supplies because they went into the Mists without much planning or stockpiling. If the Gods actually had any desire to save humanity from a known impending global apocalypse they would've done basic stockpiling of resources long before GW2's narrative began. Your entire argument is that basic disaster preparation used all the time in the real world not only doesn't exist, but is impossible to do, or for the gods to figure out. This really has no bearing on anything. The player's personal lack of knowledge on what the plan has nothing to do with the Forgotten telling the gods that there was a plan at all. This isn't an all or nothing game, it isn't they have to spill the beans on everything, or nothing at all, that isn't how conversation works. This is also something of a straw man because the Gods didn't work with just the Forgotten, but Glint also. Even if the Forgotten didn't tell them anything, Glint could've. Anyone planning for a disaster doesn't wait until things start to get hairy, they evac before even the first "wave" of issues hit. That's just SOP for these sorts of situations in real life. They should've started evacing humans before we got to even killing one of them if they actually destined to do so. Also, the Pact wasn't gutted. They lost most of their airship fleet in HoT, but HoT also shows and states that the vast majority of the Pact's forces survived the crash. The only major loss was material, hence why the Pact was able to quickly rebuild those material loses and show up in force for Dragonfall, Dragonstorm, and Dragon's End. You're argument for the gods telling humanity about said plan doesn't really hold water for a number of reasons The God's wanted humans to deal with situations within their control, planetary annihilation and relocation is not within their control. If the Gods actually believed in non-interference to such an extent as you propose, then they wouldn't be supposedly looking for a new world for humans in the first place. The Gods could very easily have just gone "We're using the Elder Dragons to test you to see if you're worthy of saving, you have to fight them or else we won't help you" even if that whole line was a lie and they planned on doing it anyways. God(s) putting people through tests to prove they're worthy of salvation isn't exactly a new concept. *looks at Bible* You've made this claim like 4-5 times across the last several years, so its obviously untrue every other time you made it, so the honestly level here doesn't seem particularly high either.

The problem with this is that EoD's own narrative flatly disproves the notion the gods had nowhere to take humanity, even if they hadn't found a new world for them to live on. The Aetherblades spent years in the Mists and were physically fine afterwards. Ankka only went crazy due to spending years killing copies of herself, and the other Aetherblades, in the fractals time loops/variants. So long as the gods didn't force humans to do that they could have kept humanity in the Mists for years with no issues as far as everything in the game has shown us. Between the gods Having long had foreknowledge of the dragons Studying the dragons themselves Working with the people(Glint/Forgotten) who also knew of the dragons, and were actively trying to end them, and break the cycle Still being around when the planet started to break down after two dragons had died, and a third one was in danger of being killed Not making any attempt to begin the rapturing when it was clear the world was starting to break down due to the first two dragon's deaths Having a place they could've taken humanity regardless of if they found another world or not. Not telling anyone they supposedly had a plan to save humanity, except one random priest guy in the middle of nowhere because... reasons? Actively telling humans both in Nightfall, and in Path of Fire, that they aren't going to help with jack squat, and that humans already had everything they need to succeed. Occam's razor would suggest that the gods never actually had a plan to save humanity on Tyira and bring them elsewhere. Likely due to foreknowledge that the mortals of Tyria could do what the gods couldn't, and defeat the Elder Dragons in such a way that didn't end the world. The only proof for the idea they had such a plan is a singular book written by a guy who claims, but provides no evidence for, that he got a vision from Kormir... the very same god we meet face to face in PoF and who neither states, or even suggests, she, or any of the other gods, had any plan to do anything of the sort, and instead actively tell us "lulz do it yourself!"

The Norn didn't just live in the Far Shiverpeaks. The Norn structures in Drizzlewood were part of Olafson's territory as far back as Eye of the North, and the temple in northern Drizzlewood was the site of where the Spirits of the Wild first showed themselves to the Norn. Pretty much that whole area was part of their land for ages. Sounds, but given the fan reaction to past underwater content I don't think it would be. Hence why Anet have largely skipped over underwater content since launch. Likely why they've also skipped over many underground environments after the negative reaction to Tangled Depths and Draconis Mons. While the desire to see the entire game map uncovered is understandable I don't think it will happen.Anet very clearly doesn't care about filling in the whole map, leaving odd spaces between many core/LW/expansion maps for whatever reasons or another. I think time is a big issue. While its become a bit more common in the last few years, its still relatively rare for an MMO to make it to 10 years of active content development. Not 10 years with the servers up, or 10 years of one guy working in his basement to make small bug fix patches, but 10 years of yearly expansions, or the GW2 model or seasonal releases + expansions. Getting to 15 is even rarer. There's like maybe 8 MMOs I can think of that have gotten to 15+ years of active content development(EQ 1, EQ2, WoW, EVE, LOTRO, Runescape, like 1-2 eastern MMOs) Taking into account LWS6, or w/e Anet ends up calling it, expanding on Cantha, whatever Xpack 4 is about(likely the God plot IMO), a LWS4/LWS6 style expansion on that region like Elona got for Xpack 4, and either a LWS8, or an Xpack 5, to round up the remaining loose plots like the Centaurs, Inquest, Malyck, Foefire, Wizard's tower, etc, thats bordering on the 15 year mark. That would round up all the remaining loose ends of the various plots, but still leave places like Dzalana, the Scavenger's Causeway, the majority of the Magumma Wastes and Charr Homelands, all the rest of Elona and Cantha, etc unexplored.

No, my argument was that if you actually believed what you said about discussing alternate possibilities with me is pointless you wouldn't bother because it would be, as you said pointless. The fact that you did so anyways proves you don't think its pointless, that you're getting something out of it, and that you know you are. Which fundamentally makes your post, and your intent behind it, fake. Its this sort of fundamental dishonesty in your posts that I take issue with. Don't say things, and then clearly go against them in the same breath. That's literally not what any of those phrases mean. Pointing out that a statement is objectively wrong, like the case of Glint not knowing what happened past her own death, or that three maps =/= 1 map, has nothing to do with interpretations. Nothing they talked about was a subjective opinion or interpretation, it was just an objective fact. Its like saying someone is not open to accepting other people's interpretations when you point out that the sky isn't pink with purple poke-a-dots. There is no interpretation there, only cold, hard, facts. Facts and interpretations are different things. Pointing out that their statements of things that are facts has nothing to do with my opinion on their subjective interpretations. Like I'm not going to argue that Fenom's concern about possibly only getting 1 Cantha map is wrong, because thats his subjective concern. He cant be wrong about it. You can be wrong about things like the number of maps something feature in, or if Glint did or did not say something. Do some yourself. I'm able to discuss things quite civilly with Kalavier quite nicely and easily because he doesn't do these sorts of things.

Incorrect https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dulann,_Luminate's_Envoy Glint left behind some knowledge of what would happen after Kralk's fall, but intentionally kept it vague in order to prevent the outcomes from changing. All you lines show is that she couldn't see her own place after the upcoming battle with Kralk, not that she couldn't see anything. Again, words have meaning, context matters.

This again ignores that the system was breaking down as far back as LWS3 after the death of Mordremoth, and before Kormir left, as giant ley-line anomalies, and unbound magic, were cropping up all over the place. Not to mention the ley infused bounty monsters also caused the system breaking down in Elona, where Kormir was. And the gods don't need to be nearby themselves to keep watch, they have agents, minions, and servants, who can do it for them.

Bjora Marches, Drizzlewood Coast, and part of Grothmar are not "one rectangle" they are 3. Bjora Marches Drizzlewood Coast Grothmar So no, its nothing like just getting Seitung and saying "you guys saw Cantha, what more do ya want" since Saitung is one map, while those are three. This not even getting into how most of the remaining bits of the old Norn homelands are inacessable due to being buried under a million tons of water in that giant lake formed by Jormag's actions up north. And the one signficant settlement remaining that isn't underwater, Gunnar's Hold, was itself totally smashed under a giant glacier by Jormag, and thus doesn't exist anymore.

Well no. The gods knew of the Elder Dragons' existence. The gods actively collected knowledge on the Elder Dragons in the distant past. The gods knew the Elder Dragons would screw up the world. The gods actively worked with Glint, and the Forgotten, who themselves were actively working against the Elder Dragons. The gods(supposedly) actively sought a new homeworld for humanity, knowing the Elder Dragons would screw up the planet, and that humans needed saving. This isn't some out the country sudden emergency. This is an issue the gods have known about for literally millennia, and at least two(Grenth and Kormir) were around when the races come together to take the fight to Zhaitan, and at least one(Kormir) was around not only after we had killed Zhaitan and Mordremoth, but also when Kralk was being threatened by Balthazar, and also after the death's of the first two dragons had led to massive magical instability across the planet with giant leyline anomalies and stuff popping up all over the place. The gods don't need to have known about the Void specifically, or that the Void outbreak happened when it did. Anyone actually considering saving people from the apocalypse doesn't wait until the very last minute to do so, because at that point its too late. They do so when the first signs start showing that its incoming... which at least one of the gods was around for years when they did start showing... and did literally nothing to help anyone. Your argument only works if you assume the gods have the intellect, and planning skills, of a literal child. Also, the aetherbaldes were messed up becuase they spent years killing alternate versions of themselves in the fractals of the Mists. Just don't move humans into the fractals/have them kill themselves over and over. This isn't how the English language works, nor has it ever been. You can have later sentences that explained in greater detail earlier bits. thats fairly typical of writing past elementary level. Also, this ignores that the text is only broken up this way because it wasn't using the newer book UI interface, its using the launch era dialogue boxes which were notoriously limited. Each god's lies should be treated as one singular thought, not two separate things. The order not being in relate to the others doesn't really follow with what we can clearly see. Balthazar can't cleanse Orr before Dwayna finds it, Melandru can't heal the world until after its been cleansed, Lyssa can't live in Wren among humans until they come to live on the planet after the previous two events happen. Also, Abbadon, being the keeper of knowedlge, would be the last one keeping the knowledge of what happened before Tyria, which would have happened before the rise of Grenth. Making his placement before Grenth's in chronological order. If you actually believed this you wouldn't have responded to the comment in the first place. All you prove here is exactly what I've commented on several times in the past. You don't care for honest discussion, or hearing alternate viewpoints, all you care about is trying to strong arm, and bury, anyone, and anything, that disagrees with you while simultaneously trying to make everyone else you doesn't just submit seem unreasonable. You did this all the time back on the old Guru site, to the point of driving off a number of posters who grew tired of the way you acted, and its unfortunately not shocking to see you still at it a decade later.

I don't really buy this for a few reasons Grenth at least was still around during the time the Pact was assaulting Orr, and getting close to Zhaitan. Kormir was still around after the deaths of Zhaitan and Mordremoth, and knew Balthazar was going after Kralk, and may kill him. The Six actively worked with both Glint and the Forgotten for ages before their departure. Glint and the Forgotten having set up a multi-thousand year plan to destroy the Elder Dragons, and both Glint and Kralkatorrik, having prophetic dreams about a future without the dragons. I don't buy the idea that the gods didn't know we were killing the Elder Dragons, or that Glint was setting everyone up specifically TO kill the Elder Dragons. They may not have known Glint's exact plan, since she kept the knowledge of what exactly was going to happen after Kralk's death secret even from the Exalted, but they had to have known unless Anet writes them as being blind, deaf, and dumb, to a tremendous degree. Kormir especially has no reason to not tell the other gods "the mortals have already killed two, and are on the path to killing a third" after leaving in PoF.

Generally speaking, if you're planning to save someone from something you put into place systems to watch over the people you're going to save so that you can save them when its needed. Like leaving a minion or two somewhere around Tyria so they can telephone the gods and be like "ITS HAPPENING!" Its rather pointless to find a place to evacuate humanity too if you aren't even aware of when they need to be evacuated huh? Also, if you're planning on saving someone, you typically don't wait until the very last second to do so. The gods, if they had any real intention on saving humanity, would have started doing so the moment void issues became a thing in Cantha in the several month time frame between the defeat of Jormag and Primordus, and the beginning of EoD. Consider the following. How would Lyssa be helping the gods forget if she was with humanity in the village of Wren, while the other gods were building Arah? You're doing that thing you love to do all the time where you're intentionally removing, and ignoring, part of the text to make it seem like its saying something other than whats actually being said. Specifically https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Orrian_History_Scrolls#The_Six This also ties into the first 3 gods texts which state Dwayna came first to where Arah would be built, decided to make it humanity's new home, and opened the gate bringing humans here. Balthazar came second, burning Orr with his flame to cleanse it for humanity. Melandru came third, urged peace between humans and the native races, and worked to prepare for human's future Lyssa lived among humans in Wren, helping them forget their past, and bringing them joy. So, in the end, context matters.

That would be interesting. Could tie into the old GW1.dat file data for older gods like Arachnia, insectoid gods, and GW1/GW2 lore about the god that predated Abbadon, Balthazar's father, Dwayna's father, etc. Some conflict regarding the older/new gods, or the human/non-human gods, destroys the original human homeworld, forcing them to flee to Tyria. Though I don't believe the gods had any intention of saving humanity from the dragons. In EoD we see full scale global apocalypse and yet none of the gods showed up to recuse humans while void was going crazy from Cantha to the Charr homelands. That books reads like a nutjob trying to justify his own belief.

The Orrian history scrolls state that, while the other Gods were building Arah, Lyssa was among the mortals giving them joy, and helping them forget their past. This, along with comments about Balthazar coming into Tyria carrying the head of his father(In triumph or sorrow being unstated), would suggests humans fled something pretty bad. I don't think the gods need to have covered it up, just that humans chose to forget whatever befell them before. Though I could easily see Anet going that route, and it being some big reveal in Xpack 4 along with other secrets of the gods/Mists.

That may be what you meant, but that isn't what you wrote. Guild Wars 1 lore repeatedly said that the gods brought humanity to Cantha first. GW1 lore also has Luxons say they came from somewhere else besides Cantha in the earliest days of humanity. There's also history scrolls in Orr in GW2 that imply that the gods first arrived in Tyira to Orr, and brought the first humans to Tyria at Orr after Balthazar cleansed Orr to claim it for humanity. So we have Orr, Cantha, and some possible 3rd location, as places where early humans were brought to the world. Given the rather low development of most Tyrian races, outside the Asura, and very recently the Charr, most of the early history of these species would be no different than the early history of humanity... which was very uneventful because the majority of human history was tribal, where there wasn't enough civilization to achieve much of anything. We know the Charr were a tribal species, largely destroying itself with inter-tribal warfare, until the Khan-Ur appeared, untied the tribes, and then they've spent their entire history since then mercilessly attacking and conquering everyone around them, getting into conflict with the Forgotten for awhile, and then later humanity. The Norn have spent their entire history rejecting the idea of civilization, generally living in small family units, and focusing more on personal glory, and reverence of the spirits, over larger achievements. Human history on Tyira is very well developed, likely owing to them coming to Tyria long after moving past tribal stages on their original homeworld. Sylvari history isn't very long in the first place. Really the only major race developed enough to have an actual explorable history is the Asura.

Except the 6 Elder Dragons weren't working under the same will. All of them acted against each other when they came into contact.