One more for the road.8950

It's been the meta for quite a while already. People are trying to get out of it with the last balance, with varying success.

*laughs in four supports and one dps per party meta*

This math doesn't work the way you think it is.

I have played in them myself. And against them. I know you can do this just fine with 20-30 as long as you have the right comp, get the boon generation up and go and have ppl that do what they're supposed to do on the right build. And it's not anything new. Clouders, sure, but inside an enemy keep fort farming many times your own number , clouders from your side won't last long due to either skill or lack of booms the same way as enemies and they're usually stuck outside pretty fast unless third server comes to join in. Every now and then a squad might have higher numbers as they start out, but you'll usually find ppl getting peeled off until there's a core of players that's on your wall and the rest are at their spawn, stuck outside or getting sniped on their way in. This is why I am referring to player and server difference because not everyone want to invest to be able to play like that or even want to play like that. And that any changes that makes this even easier for those that can but punish those who can't is inherently bad because it lowers both skill ceiling and available content in the game mode. Knowing the difference between skill floor and skill ceiling versus just plain dumbing down is kinda important.

You do love your percentages but you don't know how to use it. Slow attackers by 20% based on what number where?

Why would anyone from the zerg go to defend a keep they probably won't even get defense participation for even if they manage to get in a kill or three instead of taking a keep and possibly a lot more kills? This is what the changes are doing.

Not to mention siege disablers doesn't disable siege anymore. Only golems. It's called disruptor now.

People report players doing regular skills because they don't know what you can do with different classes or builds, or sometimes even weapons. People woke up in betas having no idea what was going on even if playing regularly. You expect them to know changes from hacks?

Yeah, been there, done that too. Hills with 2-3 because going back to get supplies when alone is a slog.

1-3 ppl could take a T3 tower if undisturbed easily.

Three ppl can take down ten if the ten are bad. By targeting and pulling them out when they don't have stab, or push them off the ledges (good tactic in hills), for example. If the ten are immune to CC they can't. If the ten have a good comp or the three don't cooperate or see the skill tells or openings, it might be doomed.

Sounds like you don't know how to swap builds or cater your builds and gear to your enemies. Anyone dueling has plenty of places to do so, without standing next to a keep. In fact, most people dueling aren't. If you're good, guild auras doesn't mean anything, and they didn't before either.

But that's not actual GvG. It's open field if they don't hit objectives. It's OF with and against guild groups, blobs, any type of squad, there's chances for interference. And it's OF fights that's agreed upon with a few rounds, they are doing it to not disturb others while they're doing it (like in a frickin keep), and it's usually done on the third enemy's BL. Often you'll find it's open tags either on a server discord or a guild discord containing a lot of different types of players, but they're all voice. They're not using any actual GvG rules other than agreeing on time on the counter for when to clash. AFTER the agreed upon rounds or time, or it's obvious that one is wiping the other every time, or they lose numbers or something else, they go back to regular WvW. Either on that map or move maps. --- I don't get why people aren't happy about this. It's better they do this as open field battles rather than in your keep, no? If they just want the kills or action, they'll hit your objectives or do the thing where you end with a three way from an enemy spawn, bay or hills and the third coming from south camp. IF you are in a MU with three servers that can actually cough up players. If they do it on the "battlefield" at south camp, they're trying to learn things, learn new people how to play, new commanders are learning to lead, getting their skills up, figure out new builds, having fun figuring out what they can do with the game play or build. And when there's a huge difference in server population and coverage in the MU it might the best content they can get for a little while other than just getting wiped or wiping over and over. These are people, that like you, want their pips and participation (which you don't get in the arena, OS or EotM). I play all types of WvW. I like solo, I like small, I like zerg, I like chatmanders, I like voice tags, I like BvB, GvG, PPT, fights, defending, attacking, roaming, back capping, I like to play meta and I like to cook up weird builds to try out. I like highly organized, I like casual, I like complete confusion, I like drunk raids, I like messing around with friends, I like dancing in front of enemies and have them dance back. I play in prime time, off peak, and in the middle of the night or early morning, depending on my current work schedule. I am just trying to point out there are different types of game play and they're all valid and fun, and people seem to be too stuck with their nose up into whatever they favor. Servers are enemies on the battlefield, but it doesn't mean they're also not friends that can have fun together, like agreeing on open field fights. I can't get my head around not being fine with others wanting to get better and become better players or enjoying whatever THEY find fun. The reason 20-30 people could fort farm for hours with several times the number against them BEFORE this patch is obviously, I won't just call it a skill issue as it's also about population, coverage, commanders, what players you have available, pool of veterans or fighters, organization, etc, but a difference. Fixing that difference is not done by denying others to get better, throw derogatory names or in general kitten talk certain groups of players, game styles or ways to play. Polarization doesn't help anyone. And clearly people here keeps confusing the terms and what the different types of players are and do, and what actually benefits them. Maybe because they don't play that way themselves so they have no idea, but come on, not wanting or knowing to play like that doesn't need to mean refusing to understand. A "healthy" server has a bit of everything. Anet wants these changes to benefit fights, but all I see is a shift towards PPT and ktrain. As it's been pointed out so many times now, if you have someone rolling around in your keep, it's because it's the only content they could get. Knocking on main keep or garri if not finding anything else to hone your weapons properly on have been a way to get enemies gathered to fight for years. But then the main goal isn't to cap that keep, it's to find content. And with more and more MUs where the discrepancy gets larger and larger between the servers, population and coverage, this is not a change that benefits the game mode. And when players can't even get things back, they log out. This is not changes asked for by a small group of veteran boon ballers to farm newbies, pugs, randoms, casual and/or disorganized players, get your head out of your kitten and stop blaming whoever you first could pick out of the air of who you dislike playing against. Lack of content is lack of content. For everyone. Including those you don't like. On all sides. Say whatever on build balance and shifting metas, but this is not about that. It's about the game mode as a whole. There's been a lot of dumbing down in WvW lately, A LOT, and now it's starting to go too far. But then again, this is the forums. Where defending is "winning" instead of "successfully defend" and the defenders decide where, when and how the attackers attack. So yeah, maybe I am asking too much.

Oh... and ... force everyone in WvW to play this way? What? This is not even done in WvW unless you count the arena in EotM (or guild halls now). This is matches. Which needs to play without interference.

Well, it was 6 teams of 18 plus lead, so 19, you need bench. Add the people arranging it, that didn't fight. And it was all done in a week, with all the matches during the weekend so you had to have the entire weekend off as well as do rehearsals in the evenings with your team during the week before. As it was a draft, and ppl had to get used to each other and the leads tactics. I'd say that's not bad. Was quite the audience as well. Edit: Oh, and 15 servers, this was EU.. Can't fight cross-region.

This so much. GvG is already an own game mode. It even has the occasional tournament. It has a different meta and rules, with rounds and points, and mostly played 15 vs 15. The last big thing on EU was a draft tourney before Christmas iirc, with six teams, casters and several arena instances. I guess ppl in this forum has no idea, and just calls guilds playing or open tags with a guild core for "GvG". Several people doing GvG doesn't really play WvW any more. It is a much smaller scene now than it used to be though, with recruitment problems.

The most organised guilds/players doesn't need this, they have been fort farming forever with 20-30 people against many times as many defenders for ages already.

So is having to repair armor, but thankfully we left that behind.

I think they have been alerted. I thought it was a WvW bug.

Necro much? ... the thread, I mean?

Lost logic about offensive and defensive game play, skill issues and Dunning-Kruger effect aside... You can tout that they need to balance the game mode for some kind of utopian scenario where the servers have equal population and coverage, but the reality is that they don't. We have dead servers, almost dead servers, average servers, good servers and monster servers. There is no blob inside. Or any blob to come to the rescue. And who meets who is a lottery. When the people on the servers that is currently having problems with population and coverage log in to find everything taken, and almost impossible to get as much as a camp back, they log back out. When the servers that has been capping and killing everything doesn't have any more to cap or kill, they log out. Then you can talk about how it's "fair" or "unfair" as much as you want, because the game mode is dead. And we were heading there BEFORE this patch. We need WR sooner rather than later, and if not, something else. Because this isn't working.

I dunno what you are smoking, but I want it.

That's not GvG. That's the same people, alright, but being in some type of squad, whatever it might be. GvG has timers, rules, etc, and every now and then there's a tournament, draft or guild based. Even though, some of the GvG'ers can't be arsed to WvW.

GvG'ers already have their own playground, and it's not on any of the BL's or inside any structures. It has a different meta, even. Think you are confusing GvG with zergs, blobs, open voice tags and open field.

What do you mean changing WV rewards from WvW to PvE? WvW is turning into PvE, didn't you get the memo?