nia.4725

Done \o/

The answer is pretty obvious, I don't get what you're trying to prove with your question. A single person can't have 2987459825 builds for the same class, it's a matter of inventory space and economy, but that doesn't mean that build diversity is low. I don't wvw (I only do solo or duo roaming now and then), but for what I know, since they are a static group, they have defined the builds they will use. One or two per class, I think, since my raid leader created different set-ups (you know, groups have to be organised, you can't just throw whatever build in the group; they have to sinergise). So the result was that on monday, he played minstrel firebrand; on tuesday, he played celestial reaper; on wednesday, marauder holo... etc. Not stellar, but still more diverse. Raid build diversity is pretty boring. If you play DPS, you either play a full berserker build or you play a full viper build; even griever firebrand is already dead. If you play support, you either play minstrel or commander+berserker chrono or you play druid. And that's it. Only if you have an static with someone capable of creating builds you'll see some other things, like a healing firebrand or a giver chrono. But if you pug? 4 or 5 choices and nothing else. There's no flexibility in DPS builds, and there's some more in support builds but in the end, the goal is the same: have a lot of boon duration and spam boons, or heal the party. Ofc the majority of people just copy their builds. Creating real good builds is not something everyone can do, you know. It requires a deep knowledge of classes, skills and traits, and some maths. And yes, I get my builds handed by my raid leader, because (for now) I don't have the knowledge and skill needed to do them myself. I try to, and I try to learn from him. But one thing is to use a build my raid leader creates, while asking him why this trait and why this sigil and whatever and another completely different thing is to just take the build, gear the character and forget about it. It's not realistic to expect everyone to be able to create a build. Like, I've seen a very popular youtuber from my community yell "I've made a fully optimised chrono build for fracs!" and when I looked at it, god, it was everything but optimised. People think they know, but they don't.

In raids, if you have two builds, one of which offers better dps, while other offers better survival, the first is straight better, because the survival factor can be ignored. You learn to avoid the predictable mechanics, and depend on your healer for that. In WvW, you not only must include that factor, but you need to think also about other things (like mobility, disengage capability, etc). You can't include everything you might want, so you need to decide where you will invest more, and on which you'll skimp.And here is the problem - all those things are important. There's no math that will tell you what balance of those things is perfect, because their relative worth is not so clear (and even if it was, that balance point changes from moment to moment). Did you ever change class/build between raid encounters? Then remember, that in WvW you shift from encounter to encounter, without ability to be sure about what encounter will happen next. And there are no builds that are universal, and are good for all the situations. Just a side note: a good raider does change the build depending on the encounter. Usually not the stats, but the skills, the weapons and some traits. I can give you some examples based on my static builds: chrono in sloth - full regular chrono build w focus and focus trait, res trait, using domi inspi. Chrono in matthias - regular chrono with pistol, no res trait. Chrono in sabetha - minstrel chaos chronoheal, with the healing wells trait, because we don't use druids there. Druid in escort going towers - wolf as pet, double staff, breakstun, glyph of tides, strength of the pack, fury trait. Druid no towers - jungle spider and jacaranda with entangle, staff axe/wh, wh trait. The list is very, very long.

Basically, changing stats is one thing. Transferring gear between characters and changing stats on top of it is way too much of a hassle for most people to actually do that. Eeven people with legendary gear usually just get an additional (ascended) set for that. I was trying to point out that the stat choices in PVE are binary. Before I set foot into WvW I thought the majority of the stat combinations were obsolete and useless. It surprised me that Anet even offered them because I couldn't figure out who would need them. It was either Condi or Zerkers. After stepping into WvW it was an eye-opener and I find myself experimenting with different stat combinations, the problem being that I'm still working on the Legendary set in WvW so having 3 toons that I play exclusively in WvW with several different ascended gear sets (based on what I will need based on server population and what kind of build is needed at the time..) has made a mess of my inventory and bank space. Legendary Armor will be a space saver! WvW and raids are completely different. Raids are instanced content played by a maximum of 10 people, so the stat choices are very limited; you need to compress as much as possible everything the squad needs (DPS, support, etc). A celestial DPS would not deal enough damage, and if DPS started using hybrid gear (gear half supportive half damage), things like dedicated healers like druid would become a waste. But druids not only give heals, you know. Druids are necessary because of the insane amount of utility and damage buffs they give, and that will never be covered by any hybrid or self-sufficient build. Same with chronos. I agree that it's sad that the build diversity in raids is so little, I really really do. Aw, come on. Raid meta is twice as diverse as the WvW one. 95% of everything you'll find in a WvW squad is Scourge, Firebrand and Spellbreaker. But WvW is not just zerging, you know. Roaming builds are much more diverse. And raid builds aren't diverse, you can't just come up with something completely unique and get it to be usefull. It's either a heal build, a boon build, a condi build or a condi build. Shhh. You are making sense, now. Of course wvw has much more variety on builds than raids do. But people will go to any length to defend their argument, no matter how absurd Sorry but are you seriously comparing meta best in slot raid builds with just any wvw build which might work? Even more against weak pve players trying to catch the zerg? WvW top end builds are way less diverse than people make them out to be here. If we are to take all decent or "that works too" raid builds which are not posted on snowcrows or similar sites the variety of builds increases for raids as well. The amount of uniqueness in wvw builds comes from the diversity in opponents and their varying skill level. That's not to say you can't stick to one of the best in slot builde and trash any one you meet. Even worse one of the flavor classes. Go run a proper trailblazer/viper Mirage and see how many unique builds will outplay you. That's not build diversity. That's opponent diversity skill level. I'll give you that wvw does make vitality and toughness actually useful thus adding variety. But that is basically as far as it goes. The amount of overpowered stat combos or used stats in wvw is barely higher than raids. Celestial, berseker, trailblazer and maybe some viper/minstrel or harrier splashing. If you really think that wvw build variety can be compared to raid build variety (or even fractal build variety), maybe you only play metabattle wvw builds. Personally, I use 5-6 nec builds, 4ele builds, 3-4 guard builds (cant wait to test plaguedoctor), 3 reve builds, and the list goes on. I think raiders use waaaay less builds. And, yes, those builds i mentioned are viable. Yeah same. I don't NEED metabattle to dictate it and my guild is constantly testing out different builds that work. When we're zerging we optimize towards what we're planning to do. More often then not we're running Havoc so our builds involve a mix. In fact quite a few of us DON'T talk about our builds outside of Guild because for us it's kinda fun to surprise people. But yeah exactly. Which is no proof that those builds are unique and optimized. All that is proof of is that they performed and got the job done. That's not optimization. You are comparing okay builds to highly optimized raid builds. I already conceded that vitality and toughness make wvw builds more interesting and diverse based on the stats you add. The mere fact that efficiency of certain stat combinations versus others (4-stat items give aproximately 10% more total stats) is higher already makes a huge amount of stat combination useless. Yes, not all 4-stat combinations are in game yet which does make some 3-stat combination useful. But beside that it's mostly shuffle between most 4-stat combination and celestial. That's not even getting into zerging which requires litreally no build if you can position properly. You are literally comparing your mediocre and good builds to best in slot maximized performance raid builds. Just as I said.My raid leader is very experienced in creating builds. He has every aspect of any build completely studied and makes sure they are always completely optimised (he even has a table with the % of stats gained between 3-stat and 4-stat gear, depending on the piece of gear). He creates our raid builds. And he also created my previous guild wvw builds, both for zerging and roaming. My celestial condi druid and berserker warrior, marauder holosmith, power marauder chrono, trailblazer mirage, marauder weaver, minstrel firebrand, cele herald.. Before anet killed his favorite build, he played a full commander warrior build and he completely slayed with it. So no. You're generalizing something you actually don't know. I'm sure some people just pick whatever, but I've seen my pve raid leader create full optimised and minmaxed builds for both raids and zerging+roaming. And those for wvw are far more diverse than those that we use in my static, even considering the fact that my static build diversity is bigger than snowcrows' meta.

This thread was so beautiful when it was silent, why do we have to revive it again : ( xDD

Basically, changing stats is one thing. Transferring gear between characters and changing stats on top of it is way too much of a hassle for most people to actually do that. Eeven people with legendary gear usually just get an additional (ascended) set for that. I was trying to point out that the stat choices in PVE are binary. Before I set foot into WvW I thought the majority of the stat combinations were obsolete and useless. It surprised me that Anet even offered them because I couldn't figure out who would need them. It was either Condi or Zerkers. After stepping into WvW it was an eye-opener and I find myself experimenting with different stat combinations, the problem being that I'm still working on the Legendary set in WvW so having 3 toons that I play exclusively in WvW with several different ascended gear sets (based on what I will need based on server population and what kind of build is needed at the time..) has made a mess of my inventory and bank space. Legendary Armor will be a space saver! WvW and raids are completely different. Raids are instanced content played by a maximum of 10 people, so the stat choices are very limited; you need to compress as much as possible everything the squad needs (DPS, support, etc). A celestial DPS would not deal enough damage, and if DPS started using hybrid gear (gear half supportive half damage), things like dedicated healers like druid would become a waste. But druids not only give heals, you know. Druids are necessary because of the insane amount of utility and damage buffs they give, and that will never be covered by any hybrid or self-sufficient build. Same with chronos. I agree that it's sad that the build diversity in raids is so little, I really really do. Aw, come on. Raid meta is twice as diverse as the WvW one. 95% of everything you'll find in a WvW squad is Scourge, Firebrand and Spellbreaker.But WvW is not just zerging, you know. Roaming builds are much more diverse. And raid builds aren't diverse, you can't just come up with something completely unique and get it to be usefull. It's either a heal build, a boon build, a condi build or a condi build.

I do it every week, like, I'm killing bosses I've already killed all the damn week xDDDDD

Basically, changing stats is one thing. Transferring gear between characters and changing stats on top of it is way too much of a hassle for most people to actually do that. Eeven people with legendary gear usually just get an additional (ascended) set for that. I was trying to point out that the stat choices in PVE are binary. Before I set foot into WvW I thought the majority of the stat combinations were obsolete and useless. It surprised me that Anet even offered them because I couldn't figure out who would need them. It was either Condi or Zerkers. After stepping into WvW it was an eye-opener and I find myself experimenting with different stat combinations, the problem being that I'm still working on the Legendary set in WvW so having 3 toons that I play exclusively in WvW with several different ascended gear sets (based on what I will need based on server population and what kind of build is needed at the time..) has made a mess of my inventory and bank space. Legendary Armor will be a space saver!WvW and raids are completely different. Raids are instanced content played by a maximum of 10 people, so the stat choices are very limited; you need to compress as much as possible everything the squad needs (DPS, support, etc). A celestial DPS would not deal enough damage, and if DPS started using hybrid gear (gear half supportive half damage), things like dedicated healers like druid would become a waste. But druids not only give heals, you know. Druids are necessary because of the insane amount of utility and damage buffs they give, and that will never be covered by any hybrid or self-sufficient build. Same with chronos. I agree that it's sad that the build diversity in raids is so little, I really really do. But hybrid builds or builds like PVT are just a waste and don't bring anything useful to anyone. The only hybrid builds you'll see is, sometimes, condi or power druids (very niche and only used by very experienced groups that don't need a full healing druid, and in low-pressure bosses) or even off-meta builds that few people know like harrier chrono. When you think about raid builds, you need to think about the needs of the team (you need 25 might, fury, bla bla bla) and who can provide that. You'll make the composition having in mind who will provide every needed thing. It's a group effort, since classes are too unique in what they can bring to the party, specially when we look at support builds. About the legendary armor, I agree with many ppl here. It's a space saver, yes... but not so much. 6 slots for armor + 1 slot for each set of runes you'll need. That's a lot. But that's not the main problem about legen armor, the real problem is how incredibly tedious would be to swap stats and equip runes. I'd finish faster just by right-clicking the equipment slot and selecting the other piece of armor or trinket I need. That's what I do, although I have enough LIs to craft 3 and a half legendary armors. For me, it's just a new ascended set for each build and a character per build, if I use those builds often enough. Right now I have 3 guardians, 2 druids (one of them has a celestial set for WvW and a viper one for raids), 3 mesmers (minstrel/commander/viper mirage), 2 warriors (power/condi), 1 revenant (with heal/condi/power builds), 2 eles (heal/power), 1 necro (celestial/condi), 1 thief (power), 1 engi (power). Would a legen solve my space problem? Maybe. But it would trade me a space problem for a time problem. I'd rather use ArcDPS build templates, it's so comfortable and fast to change builds if you use that.

Again, I am not making a serious proposal here, I am not quantifying the amount of work this would take or making any claims that "this would be easy," or any such thing. There is no need to get defensive about it. The only point I'm making in this portion of the discussion is that it would be possible to redesign the encounter such that it could be soloed, and the play experience for that solo encounter would involve the same mechanics for him as he would be expected to perform if he were one man in a ten-man raid squad. Clear? In the most simple terms, if a very basic "spam DPS" boss takes 100,000 damage to kill, and each player in a team is expected to average 10,000 damage to meet that total, then a single player could simulate that experience by reducing his HP to 10,000 or buffing the player's damage by 10x. If the boss could "strip" one of those 10x buffs, then it would be equivalent to if he killed off a single player in a raid squad in terms of the overall DPS. I'm aware of those mechanics, and those could likewise be simulated in a solo encounter. Whether it's one person attacking or ten, so long as you would be capable of reaching the DPS to phase the boss, the same tactic would work. Sure, but the point of it was to replicate the impact of the "if you don't break a player's breakbar then that player will be sacrificed" mechanic you were talking about above, so the same discussion would happen. "Is it worth taking time away from DPS to save that character, and prevent his DPS from being removed from the encounter? Y/N?" Same scenario, "Is it worth taking time away from DPS to save that shrine, and prevent its DPS buff from being removed from the encounter? Y/N?" Same thing, same outcome to either scenario, same choice for the player to make. You see my point here? If it's balanced properly, then players would make the same decision, either to save the player/shrine or allow it to die, in both scenarios. Again, I'm not suggesting this as some new and clever mechanic that should be added to raids, I'm using it to make the point that existing raid mechanics that rely on party interaction could be replaced with equivalent effects that would alter the outcome of the matches in the exact same ways, and would require identical player interaction to resolve them, with identical results based on whether they succeed or fail to do so. Your analogy falls apart. If raids right now are lifting 50lbs and getting $20 dollars, easy mode raids that are designed to be solo'd and beatable by anyone regardless of build, gear, and skill that rewards legendary armor is comparable to someone watching 50lbs sit on the floor and getting $20. And I guess this is my point, that it's impossible to have a conversation on this subject with someone who so devalues the basic humanity of his fellow players that none of their efforts can ever possibly match up to what He is capable of. I actually kinda like the idea of a solo encounter. If some mechanics require another person, couldn’t another npc be brought in to assist? Right, or that mechanic would just handle itself. Like if there were two circles and you had to stand in both at once, then either A only one circle would be required, or B, an NPC would run for one circle and you would have to run to the other. Either way the experience for that one player would be the same. So if you did it solo you would get like one third an insight? Well, again, this is not a proposal for something they should do. I actually do not think that implementing a solo mode version of raid encounters would be an effective use of their time. Too much work relative to the payoff. I was just discussing the concept that Sarrs raised that group oriented content is somehow automatically more challenging than solo content, just by virtue of it involving multiple players. I'm trying to point out that any challenges that might be raised in an encounter by adding more players could be simulated simply by just adapting the mechanics accordingly. This is especially true in cooperative content. I also think that from a fairness perspective, if the individual challenge would be equal, then the reward should be equal as well. Feanor raised the point that you want to encourage group content for the interest of the community, so you want to provide group content above and beyond what is fair, and I agreed with that to some degree, but if they ever did implement a solo mode that was as challenging as the group raid, then the rewards should at least be close, like 2/3 of an Insight or something. But when we were discussing "easy mode" versions of the encounters, still ten people but with the challenge actually reduced, the proposal was 1/3 of an insight per encounter, yes. I mean if they did a solo encounter, you could in theory shoot for 5 man as well. Sure, there's nothing that would prevent either from being doable. The reason I'm not in favor of solo/five man versions though is that I believe that the balance and design changes needed to craft those, while 100% doable, would be more significant than what it would take to just make easy mode versions of the existing 10-man encounters. I feel like the cost/benefit balance is less worth doing. ye making raids 5 manable addresses 0 issues. The issue is the content gap, i.e: wvw available for casual to hard core - yesDoes 5 man instances have content tailored for all players, casual to hardcore - yes.Does pvp have content tailored for all players, casual to hardcore - yes.Does open world have content tailored for all players, casual to hardcore - yes. Does raids (>=8 players say) have content tailored for all players, casual to hardcore - not yet in GW2, available everywhere else. Which leads me to a different point, what if Anet introduced easier 8 MAN raids, and kept 10 man as it is? now there's a way to get a win win here. That's false. pvp has not content tailored to all players. all players get mixed until skill level gets its way through mmr rating and the best players get higher ranks. but still high ranks get mixed with lower ranks, being that a source of big frustrations, sided matches and great toxicity open world has not content tailored for all players. there's no ow challenging enough for hardcore players. raids are The Hardcore Part of PvE. so many years and so many pages and you still don't get this. your wrong, pvp does have content for all players including hardcore, its called ranked, your confusing balance with accessibility. And hardcore players have access to open world content, the challenge is there if they want it. and yet again you are wrong, TUNED raiding is for hardcore players, raids are also tuned for non hardcore players - this is not wow.ranked is the same content as unranked, the only difference is the level of expectations and rewards, but the content is exactly the same. so no you can't say that ranked is content for hardcores and unranked for casuals wth. yeah you can say that hardcores are competitive and so they play ranked but ranked right now is a lot more about rewards than the leaderboards. ranked is played by all types of players, not only hardcores. xd open world content has no challenge. are you going to say that hot metas are challenging? open world bosses? shadow behemoth? what part of ow is challenging and suited for hardcore players, in your opinion? because you're saying that there is, but you're not giving any example of that. i have yet to find any ow content that is challenging enough for me, and i'm far from being a hardcore raider. still, ow is numb and boring af for me. raids are for hardcore players, it's really incredible that after all this time you still haven't understood all those anet statements about the purpose of raids. you can argue that raids should be aimed for a wider range of players, you could argue that raids should not be only hardcore content and that's fine, but not this. like really. that's completely different from accessibility of course, are you now going to say that recurrent lie that casuals do not have access to raids?

Again, I am not making a serious proposal here, I am not quantifying the amount of work this would take or making any claims that "this would be easy," or any such thing. There is no need to get defensive about it. The only point I'm making in this portion of the discussion is that it would be possible to redesign the encounter such that it could be soloed, and the play experience for that solo encounter would involve the same mechanics for him as he would be expected to perform if he were one man in a ten-man raid squad. Clear? In the most simple terms, if a very basic "spam DPS" boss takes 100,000 damage to kill, and each player in a team is expected to average 10,000 damage to meet that total, then a single player could simulate that experience by reducing his HP to 10,000 or buffing the player's damage by 10x. If the boss could "strip" one of those 10x buffs, then it would be equivalent to if he killed off a single player in a raid squad in terms of the overall DPS. I'm aware of those mechanics, and those could likewise be simulated in a solo encounter. Whether it's one person attacking or ten, so long as you would be capable of reaching the DPS to phase the boss, the same tactic would work. Sure, but the point of it was to replicate the impact of the "if you don't break a player's breakbar then that player will be sacrificed" mechanic you were talking about above, so the same discussion would happen. "Is it worth taking time away from DPS to save that character, and prevent his DPS from being removed from the encounter? Y/N?" Same scenario, "Is it worth taking time away from DPS to save that shrine, and prevent its DPS buff from being removed from the encounter? Y/N?" Same thing, same outcome to either scenario, same choice for the player to make. You see my point here? If it's balanced properly, then players would make the same decision, either to save the player/shrine or allow it to die, in both scenarios. Again, I'm not suggesting this as some new and clever mechanic that should be added to raids, I'm using it to make the point that existing raid mechanics that rely on party interaction could be replaced with equivalent effects that would alter the outcome of the matches in the exact same ways, and would require identical player interaction to resolve them, with identical results based on whether they succeed or fail to do so. Your analogy falls apart. If raids right now are lifting 50lbs and getting $20 dollars, easy mode raids that are designed to be solo'd and beatable by anyone regardless of build, gear, and skill that rewards legendary armor is comparable to someone watching 50lbs sit on the floor and getting $20. And I guess this is my point, that it's impossible to have a conversation on this subject with someone who so devalues the basic humanity of his fellow players that none of their efforts can ever possibly match up to what He is capable of. I actually kinda like the idea of a solo encounter. If some mechanics require another person, couldn’t another npc be brought in to assist? Right, or that mechanic would just handle itself. Like if there were two circles and you had to stand in both at once, then either A only one circle would be required, or B, an NPC would run for one circle and you would have to run to the other. Either way the experience for that one player would be the same. So if you did it solo you would get like one third an insight? Well, again, this is not a proposal for something they should do. I actually do not think that implementing a solo mode version of raid encounters would be an effective use of their time. Too much work relative to the payoff. I was just discussing the concept that Sarrs raised that group oriented content is somehow automatically more challenging than solo content, just by virtue of it involving multiple players. I'm trying to point out that any challenges that might be raised in an encounter by adding more players could be simulated simply by just adapting the mechanics accordingly. This is especially true in cooperative content. I also think that from a fairness perspective, if the individual challenge would be equal, then the reward should be equal as well. Feanor raised the point that you want to encourage group content for the interest of the community, so you want to provide group content above and beyond what is fair, and I agreed with that to some degree, but if they ever did implement a solo mode that was as challenging as the group raid, then the rewards should at least be close, like 2/3 of an Insight or something. But when we were discussing "easy mode" versions of the encounters, still ten people but with the challenge actually reduced, the proposal was 1/3 of an insight per encounter, yes. I mean if they did a solo encounter, you could in theory shoot for 5 man as well. Sure, there's nothing that would prevent either from being doable. The reason I'm not in favor of solo/five man versions though is that I believe that the balance and design changes needed to craft those, while 100% doable, would be more significant than what it would take to just make easy mode versions of the existing 10-man encounters. I feel like the cost/benefit balance is less worth doing. ye making raids 5 manable addresses 0 issues. The issue is the content gap, i.e: wvw available for casual to hard core - yesDoes 5 man instances have content tailored for all players, casual to hardcore - yes.Does pvp have content tailored for all players, casual to hardcore - yes.Does open world have content tailored for all players, casual to hardcore - yes. Does raids (>=8 players say) have content tailored for all players, casual to hardcore - not yet in GW2, available everywhere else. Which leads me to a different point, what if Anet introduced easier 8 MAN raids, and kept 10 man as it is? now there's a way to get a win win here.That's false. pvp has not content tailored to all players. all players get mixed until skill level gets its way through mmr rating and the best players get higher ranks. but still high ranks get mixed with lower ranks, being that a source of big frustrations, sided matches and great toxicity open world has not content tailored for all players. there's no ow challenging enough for hardcore players. raids are The Hardcore Part of PvE. so many years and so many pages and you still don't get this.

Right, like I said, at this point I'm not advocating for a change in this direction, I'm just exploring the philosophy of the thing. As you noted, when some people die, it can steamroll to all people dying, because the encounter is designed to have a certain number of active players. My point is, the same could be achieved using RNG, if you're "playing well" on a team where everyone else is dying left and right until only you are left, mechanically that's no different than you playing it well but then getting hit with unavoidable damage debuffs, basically. ;) If the goal is to avoid stacking up too many mechanics, the same can be applied by them just randomly dropping damage fields in certain portions of the terrain. If they wanted it to be relatively easy, then the placement would be "fair." If they wanted it to be hard, reflecting the performance of a "bad party," then the placement would be hard to avoid. Did you read my reply to Cyninja above? Basically I think any boss encounter could be rearranged so that the things the solo player would do would be comparable to all the tasks that a single member of a party would have to do. Obviously many raid encounters are designed so that a single player can't do all the things at once, but at any given time, each person in a raid squad is only doing one series of tasks and responsibilities, and you could juggle the mechanics of the fight to present a single player with that selection of tasks, and all other tasks just sort of handle themselves. Well, unless I miss my mark on this guess, couldn't you replicate that effect by having "shrines" or whatever on the map, and they are periodically "threatened," and if you fail to "save" that shrine within a time limit, then it is "destroyed," which drops your DPS potential by 1/10th? Wouldn't that have roughly the same impact, and require roughly the same player response? If the current mechanic forces you to choose between having the options to deal enough CC or the option to deal enough damage, the solo version would either have a lower CC curve or lower DPS requirements, forcing you to either play as a current team's "CC player," or as a current team's "dps player" or as a balance of the two. Agreed, but my point is just that a rework would be possible that would have the same individual player responsibilities, but without the other players. Read the post above for a little more detail on that. I read the post, Ohoni. I'm just answering to this "It would presumably just involve changing the movement patterns or relative strengths of certain abilities, right?" And the answer is NO. A complete rework is not "just involve changing the movement patterns or relative strenghts of certain abilities", it would require much more work, not just tweaking here and there. About the shrines thing, I think maybe you don't know how DPS works in raids. Most people will do whatever deals most damage, to the point of skipping mechanics if that allows the party to deal more DPS. The thing goes like this: A mechanic appearsInstead of doing the mechanic, the group ignores it and just keeps DPSingThat DPS increase derived from not having to move from the boss makes the boss phaseThe mechanic from 1 gets canceled thanks to that extra DPSThis is a common tactic in raids. An example is Xera. Very often, the first 50% of the boss is done in the mid. No one moves, everyone ignores the red orbs because, if you DPS enough, the orbs get canceled. Win win. No one has to move, no one has to deal with mechanics, faster kill. And this would apply to your shrine thing. The drop in DPS caused by a shrine destroyed would be tested. If moving and dealing with that mechanic is a bigger DPS drop than the drop caused by the mechanic failing, or if reaching certain % of the boss cancels the mechanic, then the mechanic will be ignored. Your idea in fact is similar to Dhuum's greens, the difference is that if a green fails the player dies, and it's a potential wipe. I'm sure that, if a failed green did nothing more than reducing the DPS, greens would be ignored in favor of stacking and cleaving down the boss. Your shrine failing would need to be a big DPS loss if you want players to actually try to do the mechanic. My point didn't have anything to do with the encounter being designed to have a certain number of active player. Matthias does not require a specific number of players. My point was that, because of the nature of Matthias' mechanics, it's very easy to have several downed players once 1 gets downed. It's because of things like the hadouken, the tornadoes... the less people alive and capable of ressing, the more probability of needind healer roles to res, and more healers ressing means less healers actually healing those who are ressing, and that means that any damage taken won't be healed quickly, and that means a greater probability of getting downed while ressing. Do you understand what I was saying now?

That's interesting, why so, exactly? Less randomization in targeting, or less chaotic battlefield? I don't dispute that in this instance it would be the case, but is that because there are more people, or because the mechanics were designed to function that way? What I mean is, if 7 is better than 10, couldn't the developers have instead designed the mechanics to be equally as disruptive to 7 players as it currently is to 10? And by extension, couldn't they have made it as disruptive to one player as to 10? It would presumably just involve changing the movement patterns or relative strengths of certain abilities, right? Well honestly, I don't get why Yann said that. I have never seen anyone say anything similar and I have never considered 40% Matt to be easier with less people. Mechanics in Matthias are punishing, getting downed is fairly easy if you don't pay enough attention and the thing is that it's very easy having a downed snowball effect when 1 player gets downed. Having 7 people could make things easier for healers, since they have less people to take care of. But at the same time, getting several players downed is far more dangerous when you're less people. It makes you closer to a wipe. It's true tho what you ask, Ohoni: less randomization of bomb/poison/corruption targets and more space to move. But that does not mean Matt should have been made for less people. In my opinion, this is part of the challenge: learning to position yourself and coordinate with your group so that there's space for everyone and every mechanic. Anet couldn't have made it differently, I mean, it's inevitable that the less people you have, the more often that people will be the target of any mechanic. And about the last question... I don't think so. I don't think there's a way to make raid bosses solo content without changing their most basic characteristics. No solo player can do all Matthias mechanics. It would be impossible. To start with something, the sacrifice mechanic would need to be removed (1 player is sacrificed unless the other players break his cc bar). That is impossible to be soloable without a big change (Matthias gets a cc bar and if you don't break it, he kills you). But then again, a player can't have enough cc to break Matt's bar without the need to equip certain weapons or skill that would potentially prevent him from taking other necessary things, like a skill to deal with Matt's projectiles (feedback/wall of reflection/whatever). Etc etc etc. As you can see, it's very complex and kind of a messy thing to do, and definitely more than adjusting some skills and movement patterns. It would require a complete rework.

I can imagine anet devs laughing and eating popcorn, watching us arguing endlessly and stupidly about things they do have completely decided... If they even read it still, because honestly, after so many pages and so many repetition I think they must be very bored of this topic. I doubt they actually do read this. Certainly not the 10th back and forth which has happened by now. I do believe they are keeping an eye on player activity for the game mode and are making decisions based on their sets of data. In the grand scheme of things though, raids are made by a small team (which are doing an amazing job for their supposed size) and in the day to day and overall game design raids probably don't take up a very significant chunk of time. Not like say living world episodes or a possible next expansion. Which will likely have the major chunk of work dedicated to them. Besides the artists and designers working on monetization skins for the Black Lion Store because money needs to come in from some where even if some people believe that their paltry couple of euros/dollers a few years back have provided the developers with huge bags of cash.I hope so. Whether they add an easy mode or not, I expect that decision to be made based on the actual numbers and the actual state of raids, not on some people's cries on a forum. They know much better than all of us, this thread is just nonsense from head to toe. We can't provide proof on anything, we can't "negotiate" like we are able to get a change in the game and the poll of this thread does not mean anything from neither side of the discussion. So... ¯_(ツ)_/¯ I do not expect raids team to be bigger, and I'm okay with a raid every 6 months more or less. I don't want raids to become the new fractals where you pick some and do them like they're nothing. The first time I've become bored while raiding was two days ago, when I had already done almost 2 fullclears, and I felt the need to have some more bosses : / I completely understand, and I agree, that the big chunk of resources must be given to open world/living world. I'm happy with my small raid team releasing content when they can, the only thing I'd like to have is a raid balance team that understands how classes are used in raids and what is needed to balance them.

I can imagine anet devs laughing and eating popcorn, watching us arguing endlessly and stupidly about things they do have completely decided... If they even read it still, because honestly, after so many pages and so many repetition I think they must be very bored of this topic.

Yes, exactly! The players who enjoy that 95% of the game would also enjoy raids that feel the same way, and the devs adding that option to the game would make them much happier. Glad you're finally coming around. Oh, Ohoni. Most of us, even if we think an easy mode is not necessary, have not completely opposed to it. However, the real problem is that you want an easy mode PLUS normal mode rewards. You do not just want the experience and the casual alternative. The rewards are part of the experience. It's not an alternative if it doesbn't include the rewards. As I've noted repeatedly, I would be fine with having less quantity of reward for easy mode, so that normal mode will remain faster and more efficient, I just see no reason whatsoever why easy mode should not have a reasonable path toward those rewards. It's such a weird thing to get hung up on. Yes, exactly! The players who enjoy that 95% of the game would also enjoy raids that feel the same way, and the devs adding that option to the game would make them much happier. Glad you're finally coming around. Partly quoting and effectively changing the meaning of a passage is a big no no, you should know better. It was just so much more optimistic. The second part made me sad. Such hate. How is it hate when I was merely stating facts? Even in this very response you are all about the rewards. I end up talking a lot about the rewards because the rewards are what most people push back against. I mean, if people are saying "NO ENVOY NO ENVOY NO ENVOY," then obviously my response would be, ". . . yes, Envoy, grow up." It is one of the things that I definitely care about, but it is not the only thing that I care about here, and I've said as much numerous times. But that would make it impossible to earn for players who never intend to play normal mode. Normal mode is not for every player, and should not be considered as such. If this is a sticking point, if the "normal mode raids must remain a necessary part of the process, then we'll have to move away from discussions of having an "easy mode," and focus more on how we would need to nerf normal mode to make it equivalent* to an easy mode. Why not? Yes, exactly! The players who enjoy that 95% of the game would also enjoy raids that feel the same way, and the devs adding that option to the game would make them much happier. Glad you're finally coming around. Oh, Ohoni. Most of us, even if we think an easy mode is not necessary, have not completely opposed to it. However, the real problem is that you want an easy mode PLUS normal mode rewards. You do not just want the experience and the casual alternative. The rewards are part of the experience. It's not an alternative if it doesbn't include the rewards. As I've noted repeatedly, I would be fine with having less quantity of reward for easy mode, so that normal mode will remain faster and more efficient, I just see no reason whatsoever why easy mode should not have a reasonable path toward those rewards. It's such a weird thing to get hung up on. Yes, exactly! The players who enjoy that 95% of the game would also enjoy raids that feel the same way, and the devs adding that option to the game would make them much happier. Glad you're finally coming around. Partly quoting and effectively changing the meaning of a passage is a big no no, you should know better. It was just so much more optimistic. The second part made me sad. Such hate. So what happened to your taunting? "Bring it." I seem to recall you said? You didn't bring anything. ¯_(ツ)_/¯ Ah i see you still don't understand how burden of proof works. But I do know how a non-sequitur works, so I see what you did there. I would've hoped you'd have learned by now that flailing in the dark accusing people of random logical fallacies you don't actually know isn't a good idea. I suppose I was wrong Again with the non-sequiturs. Maybe read what people say and actually respond to it? If their solution had actually worked out, then we wouldn't be having this discussion. It worked for some people, but they still have a way to go for everyone else. Ok, so how about this then, in the spirit of what you just said. Put Perfected Envoy Armor in easy mode, but given normal mode exclusive access to Expirimental Envoy Armor. That way, they get something exclusive, but not "better." Yeah, no. Opponents do change when they have to. So long as they're winning, they'll do mostly the same. Just like a raid boss. So the same approach works equally well. Could you imagine a Vale Guardian that decided "you know, constantly going after the guy with the most Toughness makes me a chump, I'm just going to go after whoever I like." And also, when he splits, instead of hanging out in his corners, all three copies just rush to the middle (but just far enough apart that most AoEs can't multi-target them). Your goal is completely illogic and it shows how selfish you are. You don't care if easy mode rewards don't have any logical structure or even follow the structure of other game modes, you just want easy! Mode! Perfected! Envoy! Nothing! Else! Maybe you're the one who has to grow up. Pd. About the last quote where you say that about VG. Do you know Slothasor?

@Ohoni.6057 said: That does not follow a logical path. The logic thing would be to have legendary armor require to play all tiers of raids. Just like the Ad Infinitum does. You start the first collection in T1, but then you have to climb and progress through tiers and you end up doing T4s in order to complete the last collection. That's why I said some time ago that, in my opinion, if easy mode was to exist it should give one of the pres, the Envoy I or the Envoy II. Easy mode should be a part of the path towards Perfected Envoy armor. Another possible thing would be to do something similar to what WvW does. In WvW there's 2 legendary armors, one shiny shiny with shiny tentacles that requires having something like 2k WvW rank and another one that is the ascended upgraded to legendary (but it uses the ascended skin). It could be implemented in raids, like, easy mode gives Envoy II and you can upgrade it to legendary but you keep the Refined Envoy skins, or you can progress to normal mode and get the Perfected Envoy. What does not make any sense at all is to easy mode being capable of giving the Perfected without doing anything in normal mode.

Yes, exactly! The players who enjoy that 95% of the game would also enjoy raids that feel the same way, and the devs adding that option to the game would make them much happier. Glad you're finally coming around. Oh, Ohoni. Most of us, even if we think an easy mode is not necessary, have not completely opposed to it. However, the real problem is that you want an easy mode PLUS normal mode rewards. You do not just want the experience and the casual alternative.

That's not quite right. The ele healer can bring stunbreak, some boons, optional protection or a pretty strong revive at 1200 range. Its actual downside is the lack of offensive support. Its utility is more in the line of "help beginner groups have smoother experience" than "always good", which makes it a niche pick. Additionally the boons provided are usually covered by the chrono anyway, so that further reduces its value. You're right. And it also lacks boons other heal classes will provide you.

True, unless they are running a class and build which you have no chance of beating even if they were rolling their face on their keyboard singing "I'm a little teapot" (or you for that case). Again, it's different types of skill involved. No one is denying that spvp has more dynamic due to the very nature of both sides having a human element, what does happen though in high competitive play is the same as in most other competitive games:you learn what and how to counter your opponent you learn when to use skills and patience to not burn critical skills to earlyyou make modifications to your build or change classyou repeat this process x amount of times while fine tuning ityou hit your natural skill cap before beating your opponent thus never being able to succeed or you eventually overcome him Notice how I could write the exact same process for raid bosses. The fact that different players have varying skill levels is insignificant. The actual fights between similar classes with similar builds have a set amount of possible outcomes and will eventually mimic each other at higher skill levels. Again this is not me bashing spvp players or the skill involved because getting that good at your class with sufficient knowledge certainly takes time and practice but let's not pretend like every fight is a unique encounter with a huge skill ceiling to overcome. Much of spvp is practice and repetition as well as game sense. When you are good at spvp and stomp 90% of the players you face (not accounting for playing an overpowered class) most of those fights were nothing special or dynamic besides you going through 1-2 more skills or not. No amount of pve dps or whatever else rotation will make you a better WvW or PvP player, sorry. I am not buying that. It is one thing to burn through a PvE boss, and learn what it does, it is quite another to know where to stand in a blob, what to cast and when, which defensive utilities to use and when, to predict where you will burst depending on your warrior's bubbles/comm movement. Same is with pvp. No amount of PvE will teach you this. PvE skills/traits/utilities vary greatly in pvp or wvw. Raids make people better PvE players in instanced content, which is to be expected ( the brain is an amazing organ which can learn fast). But against human enemies? I have serious doubt about this. Knowing your skills, is one thing. Knowing why/when to cast meteor shower and summon a lightning hammer, press 4 for max dmg output against a raid boss is fine. Wont work in other gamemodes. Sometimes, you have to sacrifice dps for CC (all classes CC in wvw or pvp, in raids they dont), you have to AoE a different spot for your teammates to corner the enemy. No, raids dont teach you this. I have to disagree, based on my own experience. Raids not only make you learn a rotation. Raids make your learn your class, they make you be more aware of the things happening around you, and they teach you to adapt faster and more successfully, and to deal with sudden problems. That surely helps when playing PvP and WvW. Raids make you a better player, and a better player does better in other game modes. And when I say "based on my own experience":Before I started raiding, I always got placed in silver. I played OW but I also did a lot of PvP. Always in silver. Then I got into raids, left PvP for a while, and some time after I came back and reached gold. Since then, I've always reached gold, even though I'm almost always placed in silver at the start. Obviously raiding won't make you a plat or legendary pvp player, but they do help improve as a player and that can be seen in other game modes. Same with wvw. Through raids, I've learnt to play support firebrand. I'm very used to play support/healer roles (I'm main druid and chrono, but I also play heal herald and heal firebrand before I play DPS classes). So, when I got invited into a wvw guild raid, I used my firebrand there and I did my job fairly well. The things I was worse at were those specific to wvw (like how to move in a zerg), but the part of using my class what good. And, honestly, that's way MORE than what some know-it-all wvw players in my servers do. They think they're good just because they do a lot of wvw, and the reality is they suck. Because they don't know how to play their class. So no, raids don't teach you certain things, but they do teach you some things that make easier for you to play some other modes successfully, or lessen the distante you have to walk to be a good player there. All i see from several people, in this topic, is arrogance coupled with "know-it-all"ism (yourself not included). All classes are played differently in each gamemode, that is no secret. Knowing your class better means you didnt really know it too well, from the start. And what you say, although i can respect that, I can also reverse that: Knowing your wvw class well, means you will also play it well in pve, raiding included? The answer is, of course, no. Because instanced content (however hard), teaches you different stuff, stuff that have timers/you know what to expect etc. WvW teaches you different stuff, too. I know several wvwers who can play an amazing FB, they just suck horribly in pve. Same with eles/weavers, scourges (yes, skill is required there as well in wvw). I believe you (and it makes good sense) that you maybe had to dig deeper in your classes via raiding to know what synergizes with what, but it was a thing you maybe overlooked in the past (couldnt be bothered to do it). Have a good day!Naaaaah. Of course classes are played differently in each game mode, but when you play a lot of one class in a game mode and you go to another game mode, you'll be quicker to adapt and learn how to do well with said class in said new game mode. That's pretty obvious, in my opinion. "Knowing your class better means you didnt really know it too well, from the start."... Well, let's be honest here, and I'm sure you can see this, when you equip a class you hadn't before you gotta learn it. And you can read the skills and remember what they do as much as you want, but you won't really learn how to use it until you actually use it. That's what happens in this case and what happened to me, so it's not any case of "you didn't know it well from the start". Well, you never know a class very well from the start : D I equipped my firebrand with a wvw support build because I wanted to try zerging in wvw, but before I actually played wvw I brought it to raids, and I got comfortable with it there. And that helped a lot when I put a step into a wvw zerg. Funnily enough tho, I know several wvws who play amazing in wvw and they have adapted very quickly and successfully to raids. My newest raid static member? He's a wvw player. He had never done a single raid. The first week with us he didn't have had time to get an explanation of the bosses... my raid leader only explained the most critical things just before we went into the boss (things like "this boss spawns a flamewall that draws a full circle, you'll see an arrow indicating the direction of it). He didn't mess up. At all. He didn't make us wipe. And he was playing SUPPORT CHAOS CHRONO. The most difficult class with the moss difficult rotation. And he did so good. Next week, he gets some bosses explained. He continues playing good and never messes up. He continues playing chaos chrono. He gets perfect boon uptime. And when he does not play chrono, he plays DPS core warrior. And he gets good DPS numbers. WvW had teached him some important things about how to play GW2, had improved him as a player, had made him learn his classes, and that made him do better in other game modes.

True, unless they are running a class and build which you have no chance of beating even if they were rolling their face on their keyboard singing "I'm a little teapot" (or you for that case). Again, it's different types of skill involved. No one is denying that spvp has more dynamic due to the very nature of both sides having a human element, what does happen though in high competitive play is the same as in most other competitive games:you learn what and how to counter your opponent you learn when to use skills and patience to not burn critical skills to earlyyou make modifications to your build or change classyou repeat this process x amount of times while fine tuning ityou hit your natural skill cap before beating your opponent thus never being able to succeed or you eventually overcome him Notice how I could write the exact same process for raid bosses. The fact that different players have varying skill levels is insignificant. The actual fights between similar classes with similar builds have a set amount of possible outcomes and will eventually mimic each other at higher skill levels. Again this is not me bashing spvp players or the skill involved because getting that good at your class with sufficient knowledge certainly takes time and practice but let's not pretend like every fight is a unique encounter with a huge skill ceiling to overcome. Much of spvp is practice and repetition as well as game sense. When you are good at spvp and stomp 90% of the players you face (not accounting for playing an overpowered class) most of those fights were nothing special or dynamic besides you going through 1-2 more skills or not. No amount of pve dps or whatever else rotation will make you a better WvW or PvP player, sorry. I am not buying that. It is one thing to burn through a PvE boss, and learn what it does, it is quite another to know where to stand in a blob, what to cast and when, which defensive utilities to use and when, to predict where you will burst depending on your warrior's bubbles/comm movement. Same is with pvp. No amount of PvE will teach you this. PvE skills/traits/utilities vary greatly in pvp or wvw. Raids make people better PvE players in instanced content, which is to be expected ( the brain is an amazing organ which can learn fast). But against human enemies? I have serious doubt about this. Knowing your skills, is one thing. Knowing why/when to cast meteor shower and summon a lightning hammer, press 4 for max dmg output against a raid boss is fine. Wont work in other gamemodes. Sometimes, you have to sacrifice dps for CC (all classes CC in wvw or pvp, in raids they dont), you have to AoE a different spot for your teammates to corner the enemy. No, raids dont teach you this.I have to disagree, based on my own experience. Raids not only make you learn a rotation. Raids make your learn your class, they make you be more aware of the things happening around you, and they teach you to adapt faster and more successfully, and to deal with sudden problems. That surely helps when playing PvP and WvW. Raids make you a better player, and a better player does better in other game modes. And when I say "based on my own experience":Before I started raiding, I always got placed in silver. I played OW but I also did a lot of PvP. Always in silver. Then I got into raids, left PvP for a while, and some time after I came back and reached gold. Since then, I've always reached gold, even though I'm almost always placed in silver at the start. Obviously raiding won't make you a plat or legendary pvp player, but they do help improve as a player and that can be seen in other game modes. Same with wvw. Through raids, I've learnt to play support firebrand. I'm very used to play support/healer roles (I'm main druid and chrono, but I also play heal herald and heal firebrand before I play DPS classes). So, when I got invited into a wvw guild raid, I used my firebrand there and I did my job fairly well. The things I was worse at were those specific to wvw (like how to move in a zerg), but the part of using my class was good. And, honestly, that's way MORE than what some know-it-all wvw players in my servers do. They think they're good just because they do a lot of wvw, and the reality is they suck. Because they don't know how to play their class. So no, raids don't teach you certain things, but they do teach you some things that make easier for you to play some other modes successfully, or lessen the distante you have to walk to be a good player there.

This is exactly what happens in PVP too you know. Except what is different is the human player element and that the fight isn’t exactly the same every time. But we all know that Things Happen. It's not true that raids are always the same, it's obvious and it's sad that some people here want to make an argument out of it. Things Happen, as simple as that, compositions vary, too, and that has an impact on the try you're in. When you have a bunch of mechanics that interrupt/modify your rotation and behavior, sometimes unexpected things happen. Like being the main feedback on Matthias and getting a poison, and surprise, the backup doesn't place perfectly the feedback, or can't do it either. Or when you go to Matthias with no mirages and you lack cc, that is very different from going to Matthias with 209482904 mesmers. Or you're handkiting Deimos CM and the tank is in that point of the fight when they are the nearest they can be to you and your group has bad luck and Saul spawns very, very far from Deimos so a player gets a set of hands and has to deal with them (and no that isn't the kiter's fault). There are a lot of things that can change a raid, It's never the same. Mhm. Some nights my group will blitz through everything. Other nights we'll get stuck on bosses because we aren't playing to the best of our ability. Yeah hahaha. It's very entertaining, my static is like that too. Like, on wednesday we were 10 (tho we had an stand-in and some LFG people) and only did W3 (a very bad W3, to be honest). We didn't kill Slothasor because we kept kitten things up. Next day, however, we 8manned a very clean and smooth W2 and did 8man Sabetha with no druids. Sometimes you have one of those days. Yeah, we've all been there. What really grinds my gears in those situations is the often accompanying nonsense talk on voice chat. Now I don't mind people enjoying themselves or talking utter nonsense (no details, we all know what some people decide to share...), but when we wipe on a boss we've killed dozens of times because someone forgot to run out with poison for the 5th or so time, FOCUS UP! :s Yeah, that completely kills my nerves. I'm lucky to never experience that in that specific static -we usually stay very quiet in the middle of the try, and just speak when we have to communicate something (like, coordinating pulls on Sloth or communicating the epi on the boss so that the other necros can epi the mobs), otherwise we let our raid leader speak. For me, that's perfect. Too many people talking at once is confusing and does not help focusing, at all : / The thing with my static is that we aren't a clearing one. Our aim is not to just clear everything. My static's goal is to learn and improve, to become multiclass raiders who can do, eventually, all roles; to become better and to kill things in a clean, smooth way. Wether we kill everything or not is not the main thing, ofc it's cool if we do but if we don't it's okay, too. So, we are always more concerned about having played badly than about having killed few bosses.

Well in Raids you won't always have the exact same composition either. I can usually "tell" if my team or the enemy team will win a PVP match before it even starts, you can see if your team has enough sustain or not. Or how many Scourges or Mirages both teams stack. Or if one team has a Thief (not Deadeye) and the other doesn't. Of course playing well will make a difference, but you can still make guesses on what happen and be mostly accurate. Which is why when my team doesn't have something and the other does, I will either switch or ask someone of the team to switch. You CAN know when it's hopeless to even play the match in PVP. It also depends your team and opposing team strategy as well and the fact that the strategy can change anytime during the fight. To say that Raids is as fluid as pvp is nonsense though, unless the raid boss changes strategies and starts doing things outside the scripted encounter.To say that Raids is as fluid as pvp is nonsense, but to say that raids aren't fluid at all is nonsense too.

This is exactly what happens in PVP too you know. Except what is different is the human player element and that the fight isn’t exactly the same every time. But we all know that Things Happen. It's not true that raids are always the same, it's obvious and it's sad that some people here want to make an argument out of it. Things Happen, as simple as that, compositions vary, too, and that has an impact on the try you're in. When you have a bunch of mechanics that interrupt/modify your rotation and behavior, sometimes unexpected things happen. Like being the main feedback on Matthias and getting a poison, and surprise, the backup doesn't place perfectly the feedback, or can't do it either. Or when you go to Matthias with no mirages and you lack cc, that is very different from going to Matthias with 209482904 mesmers. Or you're handkiting Deimos CM and the tank is in that point of the fight when they are the nearest they can be to you and your group has bad luck and Saul spawns very, very far from Deimos so a player gets a set of hands and has to deal with them (and no that isn't the kiter's fault). There are a lot of things that can change a raid, It's never the same. Mhm. Some nights my group will blitz through everything. Other nights we'll get stuck on bosses because we aren't playing to the best of our ability. Yeah hahaha. It's very entertaining, my static is like that too. Like, on wednesday we were 10 (tho we had an stand-in and some LFG people) and only did W3 (a very bad W3, to be honest). We didn't kill Slothasor because we kept fucking things up. Next day, however, we 8manned a very clean and smooth W2 and did 8man Sabetha with no druids. Sometimes you have one of those days.

This is exactly what happens in PVP too you know. Except what is different is the human player element and that the fight isn’t exactly the same every time. But we all know that Things Happen. It's not true that raids are always the same, it's obvious and it's sad that some people here want to make an argument out of it. Things Happen, as simple as that, compositions vary, too, and that has an impact on the try you're in. When you have a bunch of mechanics that interrupt/modify your rotation and behavior, sometimes unexpected things happen. Like being the main feedback on Matthias and getting a poison, and surprise, the backup doesn't place perfectly the feedback, or can't do it either. Or when you go to Matthias with no mirages and you lack cc, that is very different from going to Matthias with 209482904 mesmers. Or you're handkiting Deimos CM and the tank is in that point of the fight when they are the nearest they can be to you and your group has bad luck and Saul spawns very, very far from Deimos so a player gets a set of hands and has to deal with them (and no that isn't the kiter's fault). There are a lot of things that can change a raid, It's never the same.

Well, that’s preposterous. It's not. Because no matter how challenging something is, when there is an easy mode there is always that safety net telling you it doesn't matter if you can't beat normal mode. That’s not a bad thing.It is. An easy mode, if created, should be created with the aim to provide easier practice and prepare raiders for the real thing -normal mode. A nerfed easy mode will never accomplish that objective.