saerni.2584

No longer grants any stolen skill at all from Cantrips after the update to adjust damage/fix the Steal Time related bug.

Easy path to quell anger here is 6 legendary runes unlocked lets you claim an item to help craft a legendary relic. Im assuming same number of runes (matched to armor pieces) plus a new slot. So you won't lose any runes or waste having a full set, however you do lose functionality (but with potential for greater flexibility in a new system letting you swap different relic effects but select your rune stat combo). 6 (not a full seven) should be enough to at least grant partial progress towards the relic. Or unlock a relic related collection required for a legendary relic. It would be bad form to strip major functionality out of runes with no compensation (even if that still requires spending more gold to get to legendary relic).

Welp, clearly the animators were not properly instructed to make a duck waddle animation. I, for one, need this for a Charr DE and will be endlessly sad until this is implemented in game. In all seriousness, a new animation would be nice in the long run.

I'll admit morbid curiosity about the interaction between superspeed from SA and Silent Scope with the Kneel changes. The fastest waddle we've ever seen...

As someone who has played P/D Deadeye: Stealth access would be improved though making the stealth on dodge accessible on all weapons. Also making SA's Hidden Thief have stealth access on Steal again (which as a single source wasn't a huge duration issue but helpful in getting a Stealth attack off in the context of Deadeye's Mark).

Just saying if they want to "improve Deadeye" there's some suggestions they could take that don't involve cutting range.

First impressions on the patch preview: Deadeye pierce on DJ should be extended to Malicious Sneak Attack (pistol). Deadeye has more issues than just whether the stealth attack on Rifle pierces. The range decrease on rifle kneel isn't needed even in the context of minimal movement. Range is offset by projectile speed (longer range means more time to dodge the projectile), so giving some movement back isn't really a good automatic reason/opportunity to cut range. Boosts to dagger are positive even if limited to PvE. Specter Shroud mitigation boost helps address issue with Shroud HP but does nothing for helping alacrity Specter or Heal Specter be better to play game-play wise. There are several issues at the traitline level that are being left unaddressed due to other professions traits/mechanics receiving more attention in this proposed patch. Many more changes are needed than the ones being offered here.

I will be adding more items, including Daredevil this weekend, based on what people post. But I'm one person so if people want to post in the format I'm using it would be very helpful.

Absolutely. I will get you an invite.

@Carnifex.3275 I didn't because overall Daredevil is in a good spot design-wise, and there weren't any specific changes I could personally recommend. However, I'm open to including Daredevil specific ideas and animation lock issues are a potentially good design suggestion. It takes a village to suggest things here as I'm only one Thief. I'd also note that there's a big question mark on less used weapons and melee vs ranged as far as what the damage numbers should ideally be. I mostly targeted Shortbow because there are some more obvious design pain points. But that doesn't mean that people shouldn't post if they think a DPS weapon set is lacking and specific skills being boosted is the way to do that. And, with the balance preview coming tomorrow, I'd expect our conversation in this thread to be somewhat shaped by what they've decided to do. After that it's between us and Anet to imagine the possibilities.

Thanks @ZeroTheRuler.7415. I've added in a brief item from what I recall of your suggestion. If you have additions to it just let me know. I also added a "Quality of Life" tag to the OP.

Thief has gotten suggestions implemented though. The entire SA rework recently had years of Thief feedback backed into it. As did the reworks to Deadeye post Path of Fire. We won't get everything we ask for. But we aren't quite as ignored as you may think.

Bugs and General Issues There are a number of bugs and other issues that, if fixed, would improve the current implementation of Thief and its Elite Specializations. Deadeye's Mark. Certain targets in PvE can't be selected by this ability. Octovine is a notable and inconsistent (depends on what side of the Octovine you are on) example. This is a Path to Target issue that should be looked at closely given this impacts both old and new content alike. Automatic Allied Targeting. There is a toggle for this in settings for regular targeting. This needs to be made a secondary toggle for allied targeting so we can select if we want to use the feature.

Specter Traits, Utilities, and Scepter Shadow Shroud HP Scaling. Issues: 1) The reduction to 0.69 health scaling resulted in the Shroud being slightly too squishy to be usable. Suggestions: 1) The number should be bumped up to 1.0 scaling and then balance re-evaluated. Explanations: This would make subsequent balancing on the skills side easier as the Shroud would have reasonable sustain in balance with Vitality. Citations: Diversity Consume Shadows. Issues: 1) This trait is both too strong for the Adept tier and, with the “wait until you get the full effect” stacking buff, feels clunky. Suggestions: 1) Enter/Exit Shadow Shroud: Converts up to 10% of Shadow Force to Heal up to 5 Allies (360 radius). Excess healing is converted to Barrier. While in Shadow Shroud: Convert up to 5% of Shadow Force to Heal up to 5 Allies (360 radius). Excess healing is converted to Barrier. Interval 3 seconds. Gain 1 stack of Shadow's Relief (Increased Outgoing Healing 10%, Interval 3 seconds, while in Shroud). *Heal conversion is 50% of Shadow Shroud HP consumed with 0.33 scaling for Healing Power. Explanations: 1) This promotes using the Shroud as a healing source while promoting the synergy of using it to pulse out Barrier/Rot Wallow Venom. Citations: PB, Diversity Second Opinion: Issues: 1) Given that Consume Shadows is also a heal oriented trait, the focus on Healing Power in this trait feels both weak and discordant (need a separate reason to actually take this trait and not the other, better, healing trait). Suggestions: 1) Second Opinion now also includes: Enter/Exit Shadow Shroud applies Barrier to Allies (360 radius) 2) Remove the Scepter based Healing Power bonus, for Power Budget reasons. Explanations: 1) This trait needs a rework. In its current form it cannot compete for the exact same role as Consume Shadows. One missing area is a way to increase Barrier access/application to your group outside of Shadestep, while also being able to quickly respond to an incoming damage spike. Citations: PB, Diversity Note on Alacrity application: Issues: It has been noted that Alacrity application, even on a boon duration heavy build, requires spamming a large number of Wells on cooldown. This leads to spam play rather than smart play. There have been a number of suggestions on how to improve this design to promote "fun" gameplay. Solutions: 1) Alacrity on Enter/Exit Shroud. AND/OR 2) Alacrity on Siphon. Explanations: 1) Tying Alacrity to a few profession skills (either the F1 or the Enter/Exit Shroud mechanic will reduce the need to spam and open up this as a normal part of a rotation in game-play. Citations: PoP, Diversity, "Fun."

Deadeye Traits, Utilities, and Rifle Collateral Damage. Issues: 1) This will often trigger on an isolated enemy and therefore not do any damage, making it a worse choice than the alternatives in the same tier. This issue applies equally to PvE and PvP/WvW making it an unpopular/dead trait selection. Suggestions: (1) Collateral Damage now triggers an AoE damage pulse on Stealth Attack on the Marked target, potentially scaling with Malice. Explanations: (1) Damage around a marked target being attacked is more useful than to trigger an AoE only after the target dies. Citations: PB, Diversity Silent Scope. Issues: 1) Meld with Shadows (Shadow Arts) was recently changed to no longer grant an additional 1 second of Stealth duration, which means in competitive modes Silent Scope only provides 1 second of Stealth on dodge total. Shadow Arts traits built around Enter/Exit Stealth are thereby able to be triggered once every second, likely more than intended. Originally, with Meld with Shadows, there was actually time to line up a clear shot, today this is less functional. Suggestions: 1) Increase the duration of Silent Scope to 2 seconds of Stealth in competitive game-modes. Explanation: 1) This changes addresses a potential imbalance in the trait interactions between Shadow Arts and Silent Scope (Power Budget) and looks to maintain the Purity of Purpose of Silent Scope by allowing the same game play in all game modes. Citations: PoP, Diversity Maleficent Seven. Issues: This trait does too many things at once. Might and Fury combined with Initiative regeneration and two more points of Malice make the trait a major damage enhancement. Protection, Swiftness, Regeneration, and Vigor, however, are also significant boosts to personal sustain. This makes the trait out of balance with the other Grandmaster traits in terms of Purity of Purpose. Suggestions: 1) Remove Might, Fury, and Swiftness from Maleficent Seven. Explanations: 1) Might, Fury, and Swiftness should be the focus of the support oriented Fire for Effect (see below). With more Initiative regeneration, Maleficent Seven would still offer good sustained damage and would have to take other traits/skills/items (or use Rifle skills) to get Might/Fury. Swiftness can also already be applied by Rifle skills, which makes choosing Rifle skills more situational and less rewarding to spam. Citations: PoP, PB, Diversity Be Quick or Be Killed. Issues: This damage oriented trait is out shined by the current form of Maleficent Seven (see above/below). Building and cycling Malice with Maleficent Seven is always going to be better damage output, with 25 stacks of Might and Fury, even in shorter “burst” time frames. In terms of Quickness access, Deadeye's Mark applies Quickness but the animation of marking a target covers part of the duration of the boon (lower boon duration in competitive). “Steal Time” is the only Stolen Skill that offers the Quickness boon, requiring fighting a Mesmer or getting a lucky “One in the Chamber” roll. Suggestions: 1) Be Quick or Be Killed now also applies 1 second of Quickness when Stolen Skills are used at 5 malice. Reduce the duration of Quickness on Steal Time from 3 to 2 seconds. Explanations: 1) This increases Quickness access but requires cycling Malice and having Stolen Skills. The Deadeye would have more control over when Quickness is applied for more consistent ability to take advantage of the power/precision bonuses. This improves overall synergy and puts the trait on par with other Grandmaster traits. Citations: PB, Diversity Fire for Effect. Issues: This trait's suggested play-style is focused on spamming stolen skills and doesn't mesh well with normal Deadeye game-play (using Stolen Skills at maximum Malice). Suggestions: (1) Fire For Effect now makes Stolen Skills apply Might and Fury and Swiftness (x10 for 10 seconds) when used at 5 Malice. Explanations: (1) Deadeye Grandmaster traits all follow the general theme of using Boons to enhance the Deadeye. However, Fire for Effect does it without being oriented around normal Deadeye Marking/Malice game-play. The inclusion of Swiftness is to make the trait competitive, but not too strong, in providing boon support in a limited category (damage and basic mobility). Citations: PB, Diversity Shadow Flare. Issues: The projectile that applies the flare is rather slow and can be blocked/obstructed. Suggestions: (1) Increase the speed of the Shadow Flare orb projectile and make it unblockable (projectile, not the AoE damage pulse). Explanations: 1) This significantly improves the usability of the skill by making sure the projectile itself lands where it is intended to. Citations: Diversity Kneel. Issues: 1) Kneel remains clunky to use because normal movement keys do not break the Kneel. Suggestions: 1) Make jump break the Kneel. Explanations: 1) Making a jump break Kneel still requires the same number of actions as hitting the "5" skill. Making Jump act as a secondary way to trigger the animation for unkneeling would be a QoL improvement. Citations: QoL

“Core” Weapons: Disabling Shot. Issues: Disabling Shot provides a ½ second backwards Evade, 2 second Cripple, and small amount of damage for 4 Initiative in PvE and 5 Initiative in PvP/WvW. Disabling Shot doesn't integrate well with the Short Bow's other skills because the other options (damage, CC, teleport, have clearer use cases/value (and higher initiative costs). Suggestions: (1) Disabling Shot now bounces (or is a directional AoE with up to 5 arrows). Explanations: (1) Disabling Shot is a large investment of Initiative when several other skills on the Shortbow have high initiative costs. Making this skill potentially hit multiples improves the potential use cases without making the weapon too strong. Citations: Diversity Infiltrator's Arrow. Issues: Infiltrator's Arrow's Initiative costs (6 PvE, 8 sPvP/WvW) are a little too high when taking the average Initiative pool into consideration. Suggestions: (1) Reduce the Initiative cost on Infiltrator's Arrow to 7 in PvP/WvW. Explanations: (1) No Thief weapon skill should, with the increases in base Initiative that are possible through taking the Trickery Specialization, be impossible to use twice in a row at full Initiative. Thief Initiative is designed to give the Thief the flexibility to use their weapon skills at any time without regard for individual cooldowns. Any time a skill cannot be used more than once in a row (at least while at maximum Initiative) effectively imposes an individual cooldown in violation of the basic design premise behind Initiative. Reducing the cost to 7 from 8 in PvP/WvW represents the maximum cost that should ever be imposed on an individual skill from that basic design perspective. Any further adjustments should come to the skill effect itself and not on the cost side. Citations: Diversity Core Utilities: Preparations. Preparations universally suffer from the built in “arming time” that makes them clunky to use in PvE and more difficult to successfully set up in sPvP and WvW. Suggestions: (1) Remove the arming time from all Preparations. Explanations: (1) Arming time makes the Preparations difficult to use in most situations, making an alternative utility preferred in almost all cases. This would be a quality of life improvement to these skills without needing to adjust damage/effect numbers individually to make the skills more appealing to players. Citations: Diversity Venoms. There are some good suggestions in this thread.

Trickery: Burst of Agility. Issues: Lesser Haste has uselessly retained a Stun Break effect as a carry over from the utility version of this skill. Lesser Haste has a very long cooldown compared to the utility version. Suggestions: 1) Remove the Stun Break from Lesser Haste. 2) Reduce the cooldown to 25 seconds in PvE and 45 seconds in sPvP and WvW. 3) Set the base Quickness duration to 4 seconds in PvE and 2 seconds in sPvP and WvW. Explanations: The Stun Break isn't used because the flanking trigger won't happen when the Thief is disabled, and shouldn't be included for that reason. Balance-wise, the focus should be on increasing usability (lower cooldown) and effectiveness (lower Quickness duration to balance the reduced cooldown. The suggested cooldown is on the higher-end of what will probably “feel good” to play. Citations: PB, Diversity. Shadow Arts: Hidden Thief. Issues: 1) Hidden Thief is a much weaker choice than Shielding Restoration (AoE Barrier on Heal) and Shadow's Embrace (Stealth based Condi-Damage cleanse). Suggestions: 1) Swap the effects, so Stealing inflicts Weakness and Stealth attacks apply Blind. Explanations: Stealth Attacks, many in melee range, are better served with a short duration Blind to avoid retaliation than by applying Weakness. Steal, by contrast, is much better suited to quickly interrupting or otherwise disrupting an attack (via boon-rip, daze, or teleportation out of danger). Using “Steal” to blunt the momentum of an incoming sequence of attacks is well served by a condition like Weakness that Fumbles. Citations: PB, Diversity Cover of Shadow. Issues: 1) This trait is effective for self support, however because Thief doesn't often apply Stealth to others as part of regular play (doesn't have synergy with game play) this support oriented trait feels half-baked in comparison to the other Grandmaster traits. Suggestions: 1) This trait now also applies Protection on Heal (up to 5 targets, 360 distance, duration 5 seconds. Explanations: This trait needs to provide an easier method for granting allies Protection that fits with normal gameplay. This would have good synergy especially with Well of Gloom, reducing incoming damage on allies while they stay inside the Well to get the full heal). Citations: PB, Diversity Acrobatics: There are a number of “full rework” ideas for this line. I would encourage Anet to consider all of these, as there are a number of substantive issues, such as redundancy, that cannot always be addressed simply by tweaking a few traits. That said, again this State of the Thief is focused primarily on what exists “today” and what can be done within the restraints of that design. Pain Response. Issues: 1) This trait, in a Specialization based around “not getting hit,” awkwardly rewards getting hit by triggering haphazardly when hit below 75% HP, which is unreliable. This trait is a remnant of a passive reward based design, making for a longer competitive cooldown of 60 seconds, which further impedes its usability/reliability as a cleanse. Suggestions: 1) Pain Response now applies Regeneration when the Thief is afflicted with a damaging condition below 75% health. (5 second duration, 10 second internal cooldown); 2) Pain Response now applies Resolution on successful evade (3 second duration, 5 second internal cooldown). Explanations: Pain Response needs to be active like Escapist's Fortitude without being redundant with that trait. Instead of competing with Escapist's Fortitude, Acrobatics can apply two boons, Regeneration and Resolution, which are both oriented around the Thief being more resilient to incoming condition damage while rewarding evades (both in avoiding incoming conditions and in making the Thief able to regenerate through what hits them. It also improves counter play through the possibility of boon removal. Citations: Counterplay, Diversity Critical Strikes: Keen Observer. Issues: 1) This Minor trait is inconsistent due to the high percentage of Health requirement, which makes the line less useful unless playing one-shot builds that don't tend to get hit. Suggestions: 1) Changed to Fury gives an increased critical chance (10%). Explanations: 1) Recent implementation of bonus % critical hit chance with Fury traits is an opportunity to use the same functionality to make Keen Observer more consistently useful. Citations: Diversity.

Thief Gameplay Roles Thief has traditionally been designed towards two archetypes, Damage and Mobility. Specter brought two additional archetypes into play, alacrity Boon Support and Healing. However, for many years Thief has struggled on DPS comparative benchmarks and design changes elsewhere have made Thief, a “selfish” DPS Profession, less desirable than the alternatives for this fundamental Role. Likewise, as more and more Professions have gained in Mobility-type abilities Thief no longer is the only/best choice for the Mobility oriented role (“Roamer” in the WvW and sPvP contexts). Gaining access to a Boon Support and Healing role has again presented this familiar problem in that other Professions tend to do Alacrity or Healing to a full group far more simply (giving those Professions more flexibility to take other skills and, more importantly, to play without spamming on cooldown to achieve the desired outcome). As Thief has gained more potential roles, the risk has increased of becoming a “Jack-of-All-Trades-Master-of-None” Profession. “Core” Specializations and Initiative Thief has been dependent on the Trickery Specialization because of how Preparedness increases the total Initiative pool available by 3 points. This increase impacts everything from weapon skill costs to how much damage individual skills can do. However, it should be noted that Trickery's Kleptomaniac and Quick Pockets traits also focus on increasing Initiative (in both cases through regeneration). Although it has been popular to request “Preparedness” baseline, the more salient concern is Initiative regeneration rather than Initiative pool when it comes to managing your Initiative Pool.

We've come a long way since the release of End of Dragons. We've seen a balance and design philosophy posted for the first time and CMC has taken the reins of the Skills and Balance Team. We have also seen the limits of the new EoD specializations tested in various ways and some major changes in both design and balance from Anet. It has been a year since the last “State of the Thief” thread where I attempted to combine our collective feedback into one cohesive document. And Patch Notes are Coming (Nov 11). Once again, in light of the stated desire of Anet to receive continued feedback from the community, it is time for that kind of comprehensive analysis and cooperative effort by our subset of the Guild Wars 2 community. To begin, I want to briefly discuss the “State of the Thief” in terms of Gameplay Roles and Combat/Build Complexity. Then, in subsequent posts, I will look at a number of Thief skills and trait lines overall synergy and lack thereof, with an eye towards what can be changed to improve their design and balance. Along the way, I would ask that posters in the thread contribute their own ideas towards balance so that those can be read by Anet/integrated into the State of the Thief. In each case, I will be making references to the Game Balancing Philosophy and every attempt will be made to norm suggestions made by both myself and the broader community with the Balance Philosophy that Anet has published. I'm going to focus mainly on smaller changes rather than full reworks. I'd encourage contributions by others to also include references to the Balance Philosophy. I cannot possibly cover everything and my ideas are not the best/only ones for how to balance Thief. Please do contribute if you think of something. As I go, and I'd encourage this for everyone, suggestions will be posted in the following format: Issues. Suggestions. Explanation. Balance Citations. For reference, the Balance Philosophy citations are (1) Purity of Purpose (“PoP”), (2) Holes in Roles (“HiR”), (3) Power Budget (“PB”), (4) Counterplay, and (5) Diversity – a/k/a “Minimizing Bad Choices.” Bonus category: Quality of Life ("QoL").

Sahne has good advice. I'd add that you need to understand your own build very well, to the point you have muscle memory and can respond more to what the opponent is doing instinctually. How one build responds to XYZ won't be the same as another build after all. But yes, wasting enemy cooldowns while preserving your own is a solid strategy. You don't need to commit 100% when they still have all evades/defenses/bursts. Baiting those out will make it safer for you to burst if theirs is on cooldown and will make them more vulnerable overall.

Doubt I can help too much as I don't PvP much these days and I don't play a rifle DE. Most of the above has been helpful as far as rotations or otherwise. A lot of getting better at PvP is about getting good at knowing what the best move is. But I will say that being a good thief in PvP generally is about getting in the opponents heads. Don't be predictable and keep the pressure on them (you set the pace not your enemy).

I'll chime in to say that giving Shroud additional HP scaling (or alternatively giving it damage mitigation like Necro Shroud) is certainly possible with the above proposal. Obviously, the numbers above are to an extent based on stacking a decent amount of vitality. And, if there wasn't enough healing based on current vitality (and Anet sticks to 0.69), the pulsing heal conversion ratio could be fooled around with or the healing power scaling. It really goes to the question of how much healing should be innate to the vitality scaling and how much should come from healing power. My overall concern is making sure that if you give up ALL offense (like Magi) that you get "good" healing but not "excessive healing." What do people think the end goal of the heal numbers should look like?

Consume Shadows Enter/Exit Shadow Shroud: Converts up to 10% of Shadow Force to Heal up to 5 Allies (360 radius). Excess healing is converted to Barrier. While in Shadow Shroud: Convert up to 5% of Shadow Force to Heal up to 5 Allies (360 radius). Excess healing is converted to Barrier. Interval 3 seconds. Gain 1 stack of Shadow's Relief (Increased Outgoing Healing 10%, Interval 3 seconds, while in Shroud). *Heal conversion is 50% of Shadow Shroud HP consumed with 0.33 scaling for Healing Power. Justification: Consume Shadows has been a problem child due to excessive healing and (originally) promoting gameplay where Shroud was barely used. Now that Shroud has been nerfed the healing is less problematic but the trait still retains the stacking buff (an attempt to require some time in shroud) to increase the Shroud to Heal ratio. In effect, this is a Trait that has aspects of its design in place based on previous attempts to nerf it in light of other mechanics that no longer are in the game (RIP 1.5). Rather than attempt to rework the numbers at this point a new design is desirable. If Specter is to have a burst heal mechanic it should be associated with utilities and not a single trait. Consume Shadows is so heavy handed in comparison to other traits in the same tier, and it does too much too quickly. The stacking buff to get more healing feels more like a penalty for not using the shroud skills enough than a true bonus. By making this trait give some benefit up front (a smaller heal on entering and exiting shroud) and then pulse heal (which increases over time) it both provides support and gives out more consistent barrier (synergy with other traits). It also works well with the notion of effectively increasing shroud degeneration in exchange for boosting survival of those around you. Numbers are placeholders so feel free to give me math (not my strong suit) to argue something should be changed above.

True, especially if the achievement is just a placeholder for skins eventually being released.

Ante's work day began a little over an hour ago assuming 9-5. So I'd give them until the end of the day to come out with a hot fix patch.