dubidubidubidu.5308

half agree, the problem is how frequent mirage could do that, clearly more often than any other class can by weaponskills or utilities. so they already nerfed mirage endurance reggen hard bc of it before the one dodge change. still on every dodge the cd is rly low. on a very vulnerable build like full glass power that also is forced to dodge very offensive to have enough impact it is kinda no problem. but combine that with more bunkerish traitlines and you get a nearly unpunishable spec. combine that even more with condi ambushes which do not force offensive dodges and you have a very defensive playstyle with pretty passive offensive power.in the end i think mc by itself can be made balanced as long as the spec has weaknesses balance it out.

yes as i said, i am the same opinion, a total elite rework is most likely too much work and too complicated but i didnt want to limit ideas from the community too much and some ideas have some nice parts maybe can be used separately from the whole concept they were included or just for the next elite. i just made the summary, its a community work. to some stuff i agree to some stuff i dont agree but its not my job to decide and to finetune. so the doc is just about providing ideas anet can think about and develop something own. kinda true but mesmer sort of does have some broken stuff, such as the daze spam from de+ih. and dodging while stunned and immobed is also pretty broken. i highly disagree about ih/de on power being broken. power ih interrupt mirage is pretty much the most challenging and highest skillneed power build and with that the most interesting for me to play power mes build until now. it gives you so much more combos and outplay moves (at least when you have 2 dodges and can work with ambushes by dodging offensive). i love it and as a challenge player i would not like it when i would think that it is hard carrying. the clone leap has good counterplay and neither sword nor gs have op rewards on their clone ambushes and dodgetraits are ok in terms of balance as long as they force offensive dodges and have a balanced reward (not what explosive engis have atm, while engis and other classes dont even need 2 traits for a reward on every dodge). the only thing could make it a bit better is, when we could separate the ambush activation from the endurance dodges and give it its own activation button, so you do not have a clone daze leap automatically every dodge you have a sword clone up, even when you just want to dodge an attack. i would love that too bc that way i do not have to waste an ambush activation (from me or clones) when i just want to dodge an attack or to waste a dodge when i just want the ambush reward but now can time the ambushes when i need them for their own purpose (and even tho you get a little reward from ih clones on attack evasion but it is so low in most cases, esp when counterplayed well, that i would highly prefer to use ambushes only when i rly want the ambushes and not the dodge in the first place - reason why even the passive reward from ih/de is not broken on power). also we would need to give every class with a dodge trait the same treatment then and it will most likely not happen. being able to dodge while stunned/immob is something i questioned right in my first guide about mirage in the first beta. no one listened back then. sadly there is no way to split this ability from a dodge that is supposed to be instant. so all we can do from that point is to put mc the way it is into an environment where mc gets balanced out by other weaknesses of the spec/ class. and that in a better way than with the one dodge nerf. that is lit what the doc tries to do.

haha all good :)

the difference is big. there are classes atm have access to rly broken stuff, stuff you dont want to exist, you dont want in the game, stuff that clearly needs nerfs and you dont want to buff another class to that lvl. at least thats my opinion. and i think if this stuff is fixed some day (yeah i know muhahaha) mesmer will not be in a bad spot overall. mirage needs its second dodge back for mechanical reasons and to avoid the dumb down spiral but not as a buff.

i dont understand your first point, the doc doesnt ask for buffs. it just wants to REPLACE a bad and senseless nerf (one dodge) with other nerfs make more sense and actually solve the problems and not just cover them. or nerfs that are still just covers but at least with less harmful secondary effects. the one dodge nerf (even when called only a number change) produces a lot of mechanical issues cannot be solved by simple number changes or by core mesmer changes and since chrono (before it got ip back) and mirage were nerfed in such insane wrong ways made me go for elite balance doc first bc i felt they are more in need of emergency changes. during the progress with the doc chrono got ip back already so it turned out to be about mirage mostly. anyway it doesnt mean core balance is less important or i want to ignore it. and the moment i feel like it makes sense to make a second document for core changes i will do it. the doc is just a summary and yes i also think some of the suggested changes (like the total reworks of mirage in section F) are too much work and too complicated to have any chance to be taken by the balance team. but they might offer some idea for mirage or even for the next elite spec and i didnt want to limit ideas from ppl participating too much. cmc/ balance team can look by themself what they find is too complicated and what maybe needs adjustments to be not op overall in the end. i cannot rly remember the jaunt change you mentioned but it was most likely just one part of a whole mirage rework concept in section F. no one would give current mirage a jaunt with extra mirror generation. so you have to read this suggestion in the context of the nerfs were included in the concept it was part of. and even then it is still anets part to finetune the concepts so they are not op in the end. nah i disagree here too. its rly not that bad. the overall power lvl is in a good state and the state from other classes should just be brought down to that. remarkable buffs to the power lvl are not needed then i think. but the dumbed down spiral and the contradiction of spec mechanics created by the one dodge nerf which doesnt even solve the underlying problems needs to be replaced with other nerfs make more sense (that is ofc in stupid hope that all other classes get brought down to around that lvl in the near future muhaha yeah well lets see...). and i talk about power mirage, condi mes (mirage and chrono) is even less in need of any buff. esp for mirage not suprising bc the one dodge nerf didnt rly solve any problems.

hi all. sry for the delay ofc you deserve an answer after such long time. lack of news is the news, same old, same old. :D yeah sadly true you maybe remember, i got an answer from cmc few days after i sent him the document. he said he appreciates all the effort put into this and he will read it and then give some feedback. but since it is a lot to read, he will need until next weekend. well, that now is over 4-5 weeks ago. and even tho i answered him, that he doesnt need to hurry when he is too busy, i still expected some short feedback would happen already. so i carefully reminded him in case he just forgot about us. sadly i didnt get any answer/ reaction anymore from him until now... so dunno if we ever will get the promised feedback to the document or not. im not delusional, i said myself i do not expect much from it but trying is better than doing nothing. but i rly expected at least a short feedback, even if it is only like "i did read it but sry we are not able to implement any of it" or "i did read it but we do not like any of it" or after his first answer something like "i need more time to read it than expected, give me few months" or whatever. so im a bit sad but most of all i feel kinda sry that i maybe (little hope is still there tho) have taken all your time for absolutely nothing. :disappointed: im rly sry. i also dont think it makes sense to finish the second planned document about the core mes balance suggestions under these circumstances (esp feel sry for @Terrorhuz.4695 and others who made a lot of suggestions for that). maybe it is just the typical anet type of thing, like saying something will happen soon but then still needs 6+ months to happen. so in case anything will change and i will finally receive any feedback from cmc, i will ofc tell you immediately and i also would then immediately finish the second document about core mes suggestions. until then have a nice day and sry again!

big thx for your feedback, nice to hear you like the vid <3 @Yoci.2481

hi new vid up! powerchrono and wvw this time. hope you can enjoy! pls notice the vid description as always! greetings jazz o/

hi new vid up! powerchrono and wvw this time. hope you can enjoy! pls notice the vid description as always! greetings jazz o/

you also can run domi duelling mirage instead illusion for interrupt, its what i play. its bit harder to pull off but you get more outplay options and combos in return with deceptive evasion trait and ih sword clone ambushes (it traits simple dmg/cd reduction for utility more or less when going from illusion to duelling, esp when using de instead superior complex). i also made a combo guide and always add a lot of combo and general gameplay explanations into the pvp montages. in case you are interested in watching any footage. in the end just take the build fits your playstyle the most. for chrono interrupt i run this one (didnt test in 2v2 until now but for conquest it is too slow to be rly viable in my opinion, good for wvw tho): http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PiwAEx/lNwoYJsLWJOqKVtSA-z5IWKZGClmA9GBdXAOOA

kitten you are a bit too late. i already send it to cmc. i would been happy when a native speaker would read it and gave me the ways to turn it into a better english.:disappointed: im not sure what you mean with concept D is opposed to concept A? all concepts are more or less different ways to reach the same goal: replace the one dodge nerf with other nerfs without increasing the overall power lvl of mirage (just deleting the negative and unintended side effects from the one dodge nerf) while also bring mirage more in line to core by taking away some core power (either by stat decrease from concept C, by reducing clone cap in concept D, or by creating higher decision costs in dodge management with ambush rework in concept A). Some even can be combined like A and C or B and C to give mirage specific ambush gameplay more value to rebuff core skills (shatters and weaponsskills) near to core lvl in terms of dmg. the problem with endurance reggen gain increase into a one dodge bar is, that you make it more spammy, higher pressure to dodge on cd, what will dumb it down more and more. just as adding dmg to ambushes to compensate the lower offensive power from ambushes with only one dodge, while keeping the the current ambush design on condi weapons the same, will also not solve the problem but will maybe increase the problem even over the previous lvl with 2 dodges. the main problem with the one dodge change is, that it limits ambush gameplay, limits offensive dodges to time ambushes well for their own purpose. and that contradiction for the mirage mechanic cannot be solved or covered by simple number changes or simple addition of endurance reggen or dmg to the one dodge mirage. it will make stuff just worse. the one dodge nerf is lit a one-way road into a dumb down spiral. btw @all cmc answered that he needs at least until the weekend to find the time to read it and then give some feedback to the document, bc it is a lot to deal with. ofc he also mentioned that functional changes need to go through the skill team so he cannot decide by his own (i told him we know this ;) ). but he already appreciate the time and effort we as community put into this. Ok I see the point against endurance gain mechanic over 2nd Endurance bar. I agree. Still Concept D is much easier to implement from a developer standpoint than, really either of the other ones. I'm not saying it's the one that should be picked, just that it's easier for ANET. And you know how they feel about easy.haha true, just as concept C tho. both are very similar to each other, they do more or less exactly the same just in different ways (more similar than to any other concept i mean)

damn you are a bit too late. i already send it to cmc. i would been happy when a native speaker would read it and gave me the ways to turn it into a better english.:disappointed: im not sure what you mean with concept D is opposed to concept A? all concepts are more or less different ways to reach the same goal: replace the one dodge nerf with other nerfs without increasing the overall power lvl of mirage (just deleting the negative and unintended side effects from the one dodge nerf) while also bring mirage more in line to core by taking away some core power (either by stat decrease from concept C, by reducing clone cap in concept D, or by creating higher decision costs in dodge management with ambush rework in concept A). Some even can be combined like A and C or B and C to give mirage specific ambush gameplay more value to rebuff core skills (shatters and weaponsskills) near to core lvl in terms of dmg. the problem with endurance reggen gain increase into a one dodge bar is, that you make it more spammy, higher pressure to dodge on cd, what will dumb it down more and more. just as adding dmg to ambushes to compensate the lower offensive power from ambushes with only one dodge, while keeping the the current ambush design on condi weapons the same, will also not solve the problem but will maybe increase the problem even over the previous lvl with 2 dodges. the main problem with the one dodge change is, that it limits ambush gameplay, limits offensive dodges to time ambushes well for their own purpose. and that contradiction for the mirage mechanic cannot be solved or covered by simple number changes or simple addition of endurance reggen or dmg to the one dodge mirage. it will make stuff just worse. the one dodge nerf is lit a one-way road into a dumb down spiral. btw @all cmc answered that he needs at least until the weekend to find the time to read it and then give some feedback to the document, bc it is a lot to deal with. ofc he also mentioned that functional changes need to go through the skill team so he cannot decide by his own (i told him we know this ;) ). but he already appreciate the time and effort we as community put into this.

Regardless of the outcome, that's a hell of a lot of work - good effort. As with others I'm not having any expectations - the track record doesn't inspire much confidence. But who knows. Big thx <3

PvE reasons rly? cant even imagine any pve reason... did mobs (npcs) complain about getting hit by chrono shield while chasing a player in raids? oO

CMC explicitly disagrees. so we hope he will understand it better after reading the document, even tho mishas reaction made me think of maybe putting it more clear that none of the concepts actually include any buff requests, just in case they are so insanely scared about the idea of buffing mesmer that they miss the point that we didnt even ask for buffs until now -.-

i forgot: big thx to viquing, yoci and mortrialus. the positive feedback is appreciated <3

op compared to current state of other classes is not true otherwsie it would see more play. but i agree that neither power nor condi mirage need big buffs at this point. bring op stuff on other classes down will do most of the job. but the document isnt even about requesting any buffs. it is more about replacing one nerf (one dodge less) with other nerfs at other places (for example stat decrease) to keep current power lvl around the same. it was pretty clear right from the start that anet wants the current power lvl to exist and that we have to accept that and that asking for buffs over buffs will not make any sense. all we can and did do is, to find solutions to keep current power lvl in a less mechanic contradicting way than it is with one dodge, while maybe also adding some more interesting gameplay mechanics to condi ih mirage and make it more active, skilled and less frustrating and oppressive to play against and force mirage more into offensive dodges to reach core lvl dmg. not a single concept actually includes any buffs, just a replacement from one existing nerf (which has bad side effects and also affects playstyles not causing balance issues) with other nerfs not having these negative impacts on the whole spec. all concepts only affect the relation between mirage and core (so that mirage is not only a better core mes with additional ambush dmg and an instant dodge). the overall current power lvl from core or mirage are not touched until now. so all concepts (no matter if i like them personally or not) are for that viable ideas making sense in terms of the goal we had and dont need to be devalued by anyone. so i dunno why misha hated on them so hard but whatever. as for tyga, leonidrex and crow to the chronoshield topic:i asked for turning it back to hot release state without ground target and with the ability to cast it in the own back. but also here we have to ask us: why did anet change it in the first place? what were their reasons and goals with that change? we can assume that they found it too strong the way it was. so if we want the less clumsy functionality back, we have to give an alternative nerf to compensate for the functional buff. reducing the travel speed was only one possibility and not what anet should do in any case, it was just an example.

so here is the final document, i will leave this for any critic and rework suggestions for a short time before i will send it to cmc. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1xXABUh7Da-AWiXha8M-SKvaHQjh-_Gx0/view?usp=sharing

It's far from the first time people are doing this kind of job, at best they'll take your worst suggestion implement it and say "mesmer is now in a good place", at worst they'll say kitten you or implement the ideas in such a way mesmer will be in an even worse state. Did you ever saw those movies were the doctor is trying to revive a patient and the other doctors and nurses stop him saying "snap out of it, he's gone!" ? - it's this thread. can you pls link the bug side for me again, so i dont have to research it? that would help. thx :) i seriously cant find the bug list thread, can you pls give me a link? and soon would be nice isn't this ? : https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/103709/mesmer-bug-list-thingy/p1?new=1I thought there was another one but can't find it too.i will use this one then. big thx <3

It's far from the first time people are doing this kind of job, at best they'll take your worst suggestion implement it and say "mesmer is now in a good place", at worst they'll say kitten you or implement the ideas in such a way mesmer will be in an even worse state. Did you ever saw those movies were the doctor is trying to revive a patient and the other doctors and nurses stop him saying "snap out of it, he's gone!" ? - it's this thread. can you pls link the bug side for me again, so i dont have to research it? that would help. thx :)i seriously cant find the bug list thread, can you pls give me a link? and soon would be nice

It's far from the first time people are doing this kind of job, at best they'll take your worst suggestion implement it and say "mesmer is now in a good place", at worst they'll say kitten you or implement the ideas in such a way mesmer will be in an even worse state. Did you ever saw those movies were the doctor is trying to revive a patient and the other doctors and nurses stop him saying "snap out of it, he's gone!" ? - it's this thread. can you pls link the bug side for me again, so i dont have to research it? that would help. thx :)

yeah thats the plan, i just try to avoid that we have any bigger beef about the final document after, so i try to get a solution most ppl can live with before that.same here, some ideas i like more than others but we are not the one deciding anyway and i just try to give a good amount of ideas anet can work with (not too many, not too long document but also not too less).

hi sry for the delay i needed to reach weekend to make some time for this. i also will just ignore the beef and negativity and focus on the suggestions made, bc anything aside that is not rly helping me to keep my motivation up to put more time into this. in case i overlooked or missunderstood something while trying to go throu all the new posts then just correct me or add your suggestion again. @Mungo Zen.9364 and @anduriell.6280 first: big thx for the constructive contribution! <3 sec: most of your concept ideas are already included in consept D variants (reworking shatters into more mirage specific stuff). we already have a lot of example ideas for concept D and i dont want the document to be too long. my plan is to add only around 2 example ideas for concepts reworking shatters and then will just add links to the other ones, so cmc can just jump into this thread to the exact comment including the whole concept idea. would you both be ok with that? @bravan.3876 then came up with an alteration of @mortrialus.3062 consept C. it was a bit confusing to go through all the beef around that idea so im not sure i got it right. how i understood it:bravan ask how much stat decrease worth a second dodge? a second dodge in current state of mirage (having mc as endurance dodges), means 2 mc instead 1, so more defensive uptime but also more ambushes and with that more dmg. so bravan says reducing not only vita but also offensive stats like power and condi dmg to compensate for the second dodge is needed. so far so good, i cannot see anything wrong with that statement. but ofc giving -300 vita and in addition also -power/condi dmg would be too much of a nerf. it then would need to be something more like -100/150 vita, -50/100 power, -50/100 condi dmg or whatever (numbers are up to anet here). this would be an alteration to mortrialus concept and when mortrialus and others have too much concerns about that, then i will not add it to his concept. even tho i dont see any issue myself here. the second aspect from bravan was, to lower core dmg (shatters, weaponskills) by a bigger amount of offensive stat decrease (higher decrease then needed to compensate the offensive power of a second dodge) for mirage but this higher stat decrease should be 100% compensated by higher stacks of might and vuln stacks on the mirages ambushes, so that a mirage who uses dodges more offensive to buff core skills like shatter and weaponsskills with ambushes has around core dmg again. do i get that right? seems like just another way of reworking shatters by lowering their core base dmg and then add mirage specific ambush rewards to rebuff core skills by mirage related gameplay. so it does, what most ideas under concept D are about anyway, it looks like a concept D light version to me (compared with @Curunen.8729 idea for ex). just that this light version is easier to implement and with way less work for anet then a total elite rework changing shatters and ambush activation mechanic totally. or what do i miss here?if i got that right there would be ways to implement it into the document: either as a light idea (low effort variant) to concept D or an alteration of concept A bc it lit includes the idea to rework ambushes on condi weapons more into gs equivalents, so more into dmg boost skills giving might/vuln. what does the community think? the moment we could come to a conclusion most ppl have no problem with anymore i will then try to finish the final document for sunday.