Quadox.7834

that's like saying that you disagree that the earth is round. It's a factual issue and not an opinion based issue if the same skill can do 1600 damage and 13,000 damage based on different circumstances and factors then it's clearly the circumstances that make the difference and not the skill itself, which is why if you're looking for the culprit of "big damage" you look at the circumstances Skill damage depends on certain factors? Well color me surprised. That is true for every skill in the game. It says nothing about how strong or weak the skill is. By the way, this guy said I am like a flat-earther for having the opinion that scepter 3 is an issue, so I replied "Wrong". And anet deleted my post and gave me a warning?? Incredible. Just permaban me from the game and get it over with. maybe because posting just a single word is considered non-constructive or provocative and yes it's true that skills are influenced by circumstances in other games as well but what makes you think 3 is a good skill? It's the second slowest skill in the entire game. It has medium range. It's targeted non-aoe skill. The skill has nothing good going for it except that it clumps up a bunch of your power into a few hits. There are way more skills that do the same in the game and like a broken record should i start repeating them? Most classes have a skill like this, if not all. Fact remains that multipliers in gw2 are way too strong. If you nerf the skill even further then classes without multipliers will get nerfed while classes with multipliers will still be better.I never said that base damage would be a better way to nerf the skill, I am fine with changing the modifier.Chrono can have 25 might stacks easier than mirage. In fact, mirage can't have 25 might stacks unless it gets them from someone else or plays power mantra with quickness and even then the window is very small in which you can have high stacks and you need greatsword so yeah. If you nerf the skill then you're essentially going to nerf more than just chrono's broken scepter damage because core mesmer and mirage don't have might stacks and when the skill is nerfed for them - it'll do less damage. In the end, chrono will still do more damage so this nerf proposal is misguided and isn't going to achieve the goal you want. (And yes, chrono will still lose more dmg but they also don't care about it as much because for them it already does excess dmg, while for something like a wizard amulet mirage - losing this will hurt you much more since you actually need the numbers)I dispute that, I don't think chrono is better at getting might than mirage. The leg up that chrono has is phantasmal force, which doesn't give very much might at all even with chronophantasma by my testing. Meanwhile mirage has gs ambush and staff ambush which give more might in my experience. the correct way to nerf "unfair power damage" would be to nerf the modifiers to it. That way you're not making the skill obsolete for half of the builds in the gameI haven't tested it with builds that lack power but this sounds fine. you mean like deadshot..? anyway we're past the point where a condition build can be viable without power. The game has too much spammable condi removal and on high elo, where people can play their classes, if you don't have power then your damage isn't going to stick. There will be fights in which it feels like you're not doing much (and you won't be) if your enemy is fast enough to cleanse. You pretty much NEED power for any condi build at this point , else you're risking being useless against some classes and especially teams with firebrand. In a way, the power-creep killed the non-power condition builds. I've played around with deadshot a bunch and while it's good vs some classes with less condi removal (mainly in 1v1s) it's simply much worse than an amulet with +power and condi dmg. You even need precision at this point cus yeah...

that's like saying that you disagree that the earth is round. It's a factual issue and not an opinion based issue if the same skill can do 1600 damage and 13,000 damage based on different circumstances and factors then it's clearly the circumstances that make the difference and not the skill itself, which is why if you're looking for the culprit of "big damage" you look at the circumstances Skill damage depends on certain factors? Well color me surprised. That is true for every skill in the game. It says nothing about how strong or weak the skill is. By the way, this guy said I am like a flat-earther for having the opinion that scepter 3 is an issue, so I replied "Wrong". And anet deleted my post and gave me a warning?? Incredible. Just permaban me from the game and get it over with.

Thief isn't stronger than Mesmer. And I never said otherwise. Let's not make the thread a competition on who is more victimized. I'm not im merely stating that nerfing plasma one of thieves only crutch because players want to down everyone fast but not die themselves or have counters/competition /learning new classes is not fair when thief gets sneezed at and could die if they aren't paying attention. It's not as easy as it looks to play thief. Otherwise everyone would. ahem look at mesmer, Mirage more specifically. Soulbeast. Scrapper. Scourge was poppin for a bit. Remember tablet Rev? Yea everyone flocked because it's easy. No1 plays thief. Even shorts plays other classes now. Yishis switched to engi from thief before he quit gw. Stop crying and make a thief You are doing the same thing again. And I don't know any of those players.

Thief isn't stronger than Mesmer. And I never said otherwise. Let's not make the thread a competition on who is more victimized.

scepter received buffs less than a year ago because it was too weak scepter 3 received a dmg buff but a cast time nerf because the skill was too weak and it's POWER WAS INCREASED AT THE PRICE OF CAST TIME their INTENTION was to make the skill "hit hard" and even then it doesn't hit hard (on condi mirage at least) because of how other circumstances (as mentioned above) matter so much why is it so hard for people to be objective? It hits hard with power instead of with condi.right now, that's what I don't like. how is 2000 damage hard? it hits hard BECAUSE of how much power gives, not because the skill has too much power and i've said that the power dmg in this game is way too high FOREVER ago. If you nerf it's power damage then in my gif it would do 1500 dmg instead 2000 dmg how is that not pathetic for the 2nd slowest cast skill in the game? the solution is OBVIOUS. Nerf the amount of power you get from might stacks or the max amount of might stacks or the dmg multiplier from power stat which will affect all classes in the game, as it should, because the power dmg is way too high compared to condi for all classes in the game You want less power damage, more condi damage. I propse to lower power damage on scepter 3 and increase condi damage. And yet you complain. Incredible. no, i want less power damage in the entire game and i want a mesmer to have a hybrid weapon that works with amulets such as wizard (or even viper) Reducing power damage flat-out across the entiee game seems incredibly realistic...what's incredible is that you don't understand that the skill doesn't do good damage unless you have +power/ferocity/might stacks and your enemy has no protectionnone of these circumstances are related to scepter 3 itself scepter 3 itself isn't the issue how can this be too hard to understand ?And I disagree. How hard is it?

scepter received buffs less than a year ago because it was too weak scepter 3 received a dmg buff but a cast time nerf because the skill was too weak and it's POWER WAS INCREASED AT THE PRICE OF CAST TIME their INTENTION was to make the skill "hit hard" and even then it doesn't hit hard (on condi mirage at least) because of how other circumstances (as mentioned above) matter so much why is it so hard for people to be objective? It hits hard with power instead of with condi.right now, that's what I don't like. how is 2000 damage hard? it hits hard BECAUSE of how much power gives, not because the skill has too much power and i've said that the power dmg in this game is way too high FOREVER ago. If you nerf it's power damage then in my gif it would do 1500 dmg instead 2000 dmg how is that not pathetic for the 2nd slowest cast skill in the game? the solution is OBVIOUS. Nerf the amount of power you get from might stacks or the max amount of might stacks or the dmg multiplier from power stat which will affect all classes in the game, as it should, because the power dmg is way too high compared to condi for all classes in the gameYou want less power damage, more condi damage. I propse to lower power damage on scepter 3 and increase condi damage. And yet you complain. Incredible.

scepter received buffs less than a year ago because it was too weak scepter 3 received a dmg buff but a cast time nerf because the skill was too weak and it's POWER WAS INCREASED AT THE PRICE OF CAST TIME their INTENTION was to make the skill "hit hard" and even then it doesn't hit hard (on condi mirage at least) because of how other circumstances (as mentioned above) matter so much why is it so hard for people to be objective? It hits hard with power instead of with condi.right now, that's what I don't like.

It's not useless and gives some decent boons and as a thief u take what u can get these days to battle powercreep so why not use it when u can? Majority of steal skills are a complete joke and is just a bu product of stealing which due to a few traits make the act more useful than the reward unfortunately Yeah all boons in the game, x2, on a <20 second cooldown. "Decent". Yeah a class that's not really a great self or party boon giver can give itself the the full set of boons only by stealing from one specific class if it is successful whith its steal to begin with is so OP lol c'mon. I like mesmer but lately with all the posts popping up about specific things that are strong or useful against them stating their OP. U guys do realize there is going to be some skill or traits etc that will be useful against mirages right,as there is for every class. It's like u guys expect to either be on equal ground or at an advantage against every spec,if not BAM there's a new thread stating its OP or unfair to mirages lmao ×2 only applies if running improv which alot dont so...I don't even play mirage, esp not condi. Plasma is not just good vs mesmer, it is good vs everyone. Everyone runs improv (on meta/viable builds).

It's not useless and gives some decent boons and as a thief u take what u can get these days to battle powercreep so why not use it when u can? Majority of steal skills are a complete joke and is just a bu product of stealing which due to a few traits make the act more useful than the reward unfortunately Yeah all boons in the game, x2, on a <20 second cooldown. "Decent".

Of course, because your comment is so substantive. I created the thread because last thread about plasma got closed due to mesmers and thieves throwing insults and derailing. If you read the comments in this thread I have almost written a fucking essay by this point, you are just being disrespectful.

How is rev stolen skill garbage

Yeah, I did. It's a better line of reasoning than the assertion that a thief stolen skill should require the thief to put him or herself in a disadvantaged state in order to utilize it to begin with.Firstly: You say that skills that actually have to hit your target, be placed on the ground, risk being evaded etc "force you into a disadvantaged state" and is "bad design". How you can consider risk-reward and counterplay to be a bad thing is beyond me.Secondly: I compared it to the other stolen skills to illustrate why it is so strong. I can't answer what the stolen skills should do (and I don't think I have), only anet can (if even). My assertions are 1. it is too strong/lacks counterplay and 2. this is why. ("this" being my comparisions to the other stolen skills and everything else in previous posts). See, you did it too. I just think that the dev team actually tried to balance the skills around what would be useful vs the classes being fought.You claim is that steal skills have a particular purpose and are made a particular way intentionally (to counter the opponent and exploit their weakness). And so it drives balance changes. My perspective only serves to counter yours (it means that there is no set purpose or point, and plasma should not be kept excessively powerful under this pretense). So this view does not involve any active assertions. Let's not ignore that thieves have access to smoke fields and can spin with that axe in them to blind warriors, which disables them.I didn't ignore it, but you already brought it up and so I added the fact that whirling axe is a reflect first and foremost (without actively doing a particular combo field interaction). Surely if the point of the skill was to counter warriors, it would do something else than reflect and kill you in retal? If you presuppose the view that the skill is made to counter warrior, then sure it is possible construct an argument if you look far enough and apply some confirmation bias. Theoretical build diversity is so big in gw2 that one skill can both counter and be bad against a the same class with different builds. (unless it specifically counters a profession-wide mechanic somehow). Sure it is. Before the onset of Firebrand, guardians had limited access to stability. if you dazed a guard while aegis was down, he had to either burn JI or purity to respond to you within 3 seconds.In core days guardian was the primary giver of stability, so this makes no sense. There was just less stability (and boons) back then. You still had stand your ground, indomitable courage, and so on. I wouldn't call considering the applications of using fields and finishers that are easily accessible to thief in tandem with the skills they acquire while stealing being "highly selective." Those options should also be considered when you are trying to establish the intent or power of a particular skill. Whether or not whirling axe or throw gunk on their own, without any synergy, follow a standard design pattern or not is irrelevant. They can be easily used in ways that allow them to counter the class they are stolen from.Ah, now you say I should "also" consider those options, when the entire reason for my long tirade was because you ignored half the stolen skills, and overlooked some of the most prominent effects on some of thosen you did bring up. That's what I called selective. It gives you stability. It also gives you aegis, protection, might and fury, which lets you as a thief easily cleave or AOE clones yourself with sword, or shortbow."It gives everything, therefore it counters mesmer". That's the problem, you could take basically any effect whatsoever and justify why it exists if you want, it just confirmation bias. That doesn't matter. If you steal plasma from a mesmer, you have a mesmer enemy. Whether or not it is -only- good against them or not doesn't really bear any significance.Yes it does. If the point of the plasma is to counter mesmer specifically but as it turns out, is actually the most effective and preferable versus almost anything in almost any situation, then there is clearly something up with that. It is of course also possible to hold the opinion that the other steal skills are too weak. We will have to agree to disagree about this.Well I can't force you to defend or explain your position. That sentence was a response to you saying "... a skill that requires them to be in melee range or telegraph a weak-damage move to a class (because, I assume that is how you feel plasma needs to be brought in line)" where you came up with some hyperbole and unfounded assumption on what I want the mesmer stolen skill to be like. I just found it funny how you created a bad skill in your head and then turned around and called it bad design. You heavily implied it by essentially going, in your opening statement, that consume plasma is far out of line for stolen skills by calling attention to the fact that the other stolen skills are either telegraphed or weak on their own. I feel like it was proper to assume this is what you wanted. Glad to see we agree on distortion though.It is unequivocally the best steal skill so that certainly qualifies it for "out of line". I then compared to to the other steal skills to show why it is so. Not sure what I agreed to on distortion, I just meant to bring up that I have talked about it before. It would be good to have anything that isn't so braindead to use, boring to face, and is unequivocally the best steal skill. Conceded, but that doesn't mean that plasma should be weaker. The stolen skills provide tools for exploiting the mesmer's weaknesses, and unfortunately mesmers have mechanics that prevent direct attacking of those weaknesses. Whether mesmer became decent at boon stacking or not recently is irrelevant. They have thematically been centered around generating boons as part of their combat. Chaos line in particular proves this, but there are other examples that tie Mesmers with boon generation. Recency is not relevant in terms of creating a balanced and good game. However history is very useful for refute the idea that plasma was added because mesmer has always been the most boon-focused class, or similarly. All professions can generate boons as part of their combat, even thief and necro. Before 2015 one of the traitlines on each class gave boon duration. And no, mesmer hasn't "been centered" around it, especially not any more than other professions. I don't see how that's a problem compounded by consume plasma. Explain?Sorry for the confusion, what I mean is that the reason why chronomancer is so useful for boons in PvE is because it has alacrity and quickness (both are rare and both boost dps). Just wanted to clarify that chrono being used as a support (esp in pve) does not mean that mesmer in general is any better at giving boons than most classes. I mean... It's still focused around boon generation.Yes, every class has some traitline that is more focused on boons than others (for thief it is acro for example). Some also have a bit in each line like ele.Whether or not they are random thematically for the mesmer makes no difference to me. They shouldn't be random for the thief, because stolen skills shouldn't have a chance of just being useless or unpredictable.The original theme should remain, but remove any of the negatives or what makes it mesmer-y in the first place (traitline is literally called chaos)? And throw gunk chaos armor is fine with rng? It's so damn quotable: "Whether or not they are random thematically for the mesmer makes no difference to me. They shouldn't be random for the thief". It's a skill acquired for the express purpose of helping fight a particular class.This has been talked about at length above. Sure, now. But-? Noted.If you don't care about the theme that much then I don't know why we're arguing about this.Because some people like to argue based on the original theme or purpose of the skills.Still think plasma is fine. gameplay wise. "Still think", as if it is more than a pipe dream to change someones mind in an internet argument :).But yeah, this is what it comes down to. I think it is overpowered.

I donno man I dont think comparing mes to THEE most op spec in the game really shows mirage being in a bad spot as most classes are in comparison to soulbeast when looking at dps sustain etc Is that not druid?

Thief counters squishy roamers (like fa ele and shatter mes) by virtue of their mechanics, even without plasma existing.

When the bar is hitting an instant, 1200 range skill that ignores line of sight, you know there is something wrong.

Faulty premise. The whole point of thief stolen skills isn't to give them a move that slows them down and/or make them more target-able. No skill should be designed to make a character more vulnerable for its own sake. No, it is an empirical observation. I think it is more likely that they just created a bunch of thematically interesting bundles, then made them into stolen skills corresponding to the respective classes. It might even be that these bundles were (and still are) just/mostly copied from pve bundles (in early development steal would give the thief a bundle). This appears to me far more likely than the idea that anet carefully crafted the stolen skills to fit in some advanced pvp tactics like chilling eles after swapping from water, as a means to counter the respective class in high-level pvp. More below. What I previously talked about is backed up by the fact that you were highly selective in your "observations". Mace head crack is not an obvious fit for guardian, and daze is not a classic counter to guardian. Whirling axe is a reflect which is the opposite of a warrior counter. Throw Gunk has little to do with engi, or countering engi, at all. Healing Seed doesn't necessarily counter ranger. Skull Fear sure cc is good vs necros, but quick interrupts like headshot are more of a counter than a slow windup aoe cc. Essence sap was made at a later date, but even this skill is not that much of a "rev counter" as far as I know. What you have done is looked at the current steal skills, then worked backwards in attempt to rationalize their existance. Your plasma example isn't even very sound; If the mesmer stolen skill was made to counter cc like power lock, it might have been a stunbreak or a stability skill (which doesn't make much sense as thief is already less negatively affected by mesmer dazes than most/all other professions). If it was made to deal with clones, it might have been an aoe attack. But it isn't. Furthermore, plasma is better versus all classes, not particularly just against mesmer. I like how you assume I want some 2 second cast 130 range 500 damage stab as the new steal skill. There are many possiblilities if you use your imagination. Chaos armor, distortion, evade, stability, daze, detarget, etc etc etc. Or nerfing plasma or making it unstackable somehow. I'll leave the designing to the pvp team. Mesmer is designed thematically around boon generation, so it is thematic for the thief to gain access to boons by pilfering them. Grabbing some corrosive material from an engineer or a mace from a guardian are thematic as well.Mesmer being decent at boons is a more recent endeavor.The most sought-after boons that mesmer provides are alacrity and quickness, which are more of a speciality of chronomancer rather than mesmer.Mesmer (more specifically chaos) is largely designed with random boons, except for two particular traits; chaotic dampening and bountiful dissillusionment (which has has been nerfed multiple times and none of these were in the game at release). I invite you to have a look at mesmer utilities and see how many boons they give.Consume plasma would fit at least as good for engineer, and I would also argue that ele+engi+ranger+guard+war all have a boon-focus that rivals or exceeds that of the mesmer. The only professions that clearly are less boon-focused are necro+thief, maybe war. Most professions have quite a bit of boons somewhere, due to the nature of guild wars 2 allowing several playstyles for each profession (I would say thief historically has seen the shortest end of this diversity-stick). If you think it isn't thematic enough, you could just suggest that consume plasma give thieves distortion for several seconds instead.I'm fine with having distortion vs a mesmer if a stack of corruptable/rippable boons, the most protective of which last less than 3 seconds, is too much. I don't care that much about the theme myself, but I know some do. I have considered and talked about that suggestion previously, but I prefer to leave the design to anet as they generally choose their own designs anyway. You are not going to be able to rip boons from plasma reliably vs a thief (especially sd). And you can try to make it sound weaker if you wish, that is up to you mon ami. This comment chain is mostly about the theme of plasma so I wish to remind/hold up that I personally think the gameplay aspects/arguments are more important.

I 5/5 agree with someone on the guild wars 2. Shocking.

No, that is clearly not the reason consume plasma was added. That might at least have made 1% sense if plasma had been added with PoF for example, but it wasn't. Thief has always supposed to been able to pressure mesmers with consume.Not what you said. You stated "The entire point of consume plasma is so that mesmers have a counter" and then you went on to talk about mirage being op as plasma was created to counter mirage. I then explained that this isn't in fact the reason why plasma exists. Most likely they made some random steal skills for PvE mobs then took the most thematically fitting ones and added to the professions for PvP Your rationale means exactly the opposite of what you think it means.What rationale and what do I think it means, could you explain? :) Your English comprehension skills need serious work. Just because someone mentions insert concept here doesn't automatically mean that everything else previously stated must pertain to only that concept in some very specific and non mutually exclusive way. That's not how the language works. Ah yet another comment devoid of any meaning. "Thief has always supposed to been able to pressure mesmers with consume" is meaningless. "The entire point of consume plasma is so that mesmers have a counter" is wrong. Not much else to say if you don't add any substance.

No, that is clearly not the reason consume plasma was added. That might at least have made 1% sense if plasma had been added with PoF for example, but it wasn't. Thief has always supposed to been able to pressure mesmers with consume.Not what you said. You stated "The entire point of consume plasma is so that mesmers have a counter" and then you went on to talk about mirage being op as plasma was created to counter mirage. I then explained that this isn't in fact the reason why plasma exists. Most likely they made some random steal skills for PvE mobs then took the most thematically fitting ones and added to the professions for PvP Your rationale means exactly the opposite of what you think it means.What rationale and what do I think it means, could you explain? :)

No, that is clearly not the reason consume plasma was added. That might at least have made 1% sense if plasma had been added with PoF for example, but it wasn't.

Thanks for the irrelevent comment

It seems obvious.Explain then.

What boons need reduction? Protection and stability boons got reduced less than half their original times in the pvp version. the only thing the mesmer main might have to really complain about is the 2.5 secs of resistance. Thief has no real practical way to enhance the length of the boons like boon best, and they have to successfully steal from a very evasive class.Thief "extends the boons" by getting lower cooldown on plasma with improv+swindler's+sleight of hand. the end result is the same - more boons. Boonbeast has boon extension instead. It's not broken.Thematically, maybe the phantasms are the same material as ghost's, and MAYBE that's how mesmer's craft them (phantasms).Yes, the tooltip/name is okay. But the point is that the effect of the plasma (boons) is not set in stone. Nothing tells us that plasma couldn't give chaos armor, distortion, or something else for example. Also it seems beside alacrity, mesmer's have some way or another to every boon in the game If it was "gain random boons" I would agree more, that is the theme of the chaos traitline. Also, when plasma was added in 2012, mesmer didn't have boons like it does now (bountiful dissillusionment didn't exist for example). It has not been a boon-heavy class historically. At the end of the day though, we can argue all day about how well it fits mesmer but gameplay and that is where the heart of my argument lies.

To both: You calling it "the only edge thief has" proves that it is much stronger than the other stolen skills, pretty much reinforcing my point. This thread is not about thief's general relative power level, I have advocated numerous times for nerfs to the other professions.