Agrippa.1693

It's really interesting how you can look at the top line numbers there and conclude that Scourge is trash DPS.Who says that I'm concluding that, where do I exactly say that? I never said that they're trash. I think I actually literally said that they're viable, just the bottom of the barrel! A lackey of the real Condi Kings! And that they are! Though I do know something that you were exactly saying, though! Let me quote it for you: But hey let's just do what you ask: We're going to have a look at the Mirage here then: which is dealing 21.1K dps here, whereas the Scourge is only doing 14.6K. That's a difference of 6.5K dps. So the Mirage is doing 44.5% more DPS than a Scourge here! But the Mirage is quite fight dependant, as you said,So Firebrand then: 17.6K dps: which is 20,5% better than the Scourge! Still not 15% right? Or are there excuses for that one as well? Renegade then? 35,6% better. Condi Holo (I wouldn't draw too much conclusions from it, though, cause the 'n' is quite small but still:), 39% better! Etc.Really ... just admit that your math (15% ... which imo is STILL quite a lot, but ok, as you can see, it's not even that) is faulty. And if, even after you've seen the real numbers, keep on spreading false information like that, you're blatantly spreading lies (on purpose)! And I really wonder why you do that? Do you have a grudge against Necro's?

Cool, now apply that same standard to how fast you can kill a golem!Sure, no problem there, I'm not talking about Golem here anyway: btw, Firebrand, Weaver, Ren would be doing more than 30% than the condi Scourge on a Golem, but hey, like you said, Golem should imo never be a standard to balance to! 15% was generous. Scourge overperforms vis-a-vis other condi classes in actual raid fights, despite much lower golem benchmarks. It turns out that an easy to play and durable character with a lot of incidental power makes a big difference in uncontrolled environments. Outside the silliness of the Largos Twins, 15% is about right for the gap between a condi Scourge and a Mirage or Firebrand. That puts it on par with condi soulbeast and condi berserker - builds that I suspect you would also consider unplayable trash?Please stop it! You're really fueling people with wrong information: let's take a look at Cairn with REAL statistics this time: https://gw2raidar.com/global_stats/area-17194As you can see the best Scourges (99th percentile) do about 24K dps there, whereas the best Weavers and Mirages do about 32K, that's about 33% more dps than the Scourge puts out. I hear you thinking, but those are the best of the best, speedclearers, etc. Ok, let's compare the 50th percentiles then: the more mediocre raiders! It's even worse there: Weavers and Mirages do about 45% more DPS there! So your whole "easy to play and durable character" theory is a bit opposite in this case, don't you think?But why stop at looking at Cairn: let's take Dhuum, our ultimate PvE endgame content: https://gw2raidar.com/global_stats/area-19450Here in the 50th Percentile, the cRenegade (11.7K) does exactly 30% more DPS than the cScourge (9K)VG: https://gw2raidar.com/global_stats/area-15438 Scourge (9K); Weaver (14K) = 55%Gorseval: https://gw2raidar.com/global_stats/area-15429 Scourge (11K); Weaver (16.8) = 52% (fun sidefact, on this Powerboss, Reaper is doing 11.7K whereas Weaver, DH and Daredevil are all doing 14K+ .... still 20% more as the BEST DPS build the Necro has to offer!!!)Sabetha ... well, you get the jist! there's litterally not one boss, where Scourge is in the top regions or very close to it, not even where they're META: Soulles Horror, where they're about 32% behind! You mean raid speed clears. You don't mean fractals obviously. No one is going to be surprised to hear that condi specs are not particularly good against Arkk, but that's not a reason to say that Mirage is trash. That would also be conveniently overlooking how strong power Reaper is against Arkk. No, you mean raid speed clears.See above: all my examples are 50th percentile: so, casual to veteran raiders, NOT the pro's ...and you're right! Necromancers are not a top tier class for speed clearing raids! Now explain to the audience why speed clearing raids is the thing to judge balance by in this game, and not just another very niche self-constructed challenge that says nothing about...well, anything actually!Well, for instance, speedclearing raids is something that's done on a weekly basis by FAR more guilds, statics, etc. compared to solo-ing Arkk CM! I mean, that might be 20 to 30 people IN TOTAL. And like I said, there are several classes that has already broken the Scourges record, so even in that very niche challenge, the Scourge is not THAT great! Lastly, I'm not even talking about speedclearing. Look above: I'm talking about raiding in general! As statistics clearly shows: the supposed to be condi king in this game is nothing more than a lackey hardly good enough for polishing shoes for the real kings: mirages/weavers/renegades/firebrands/etc.

It was, by a wide margin, the easiest class to solo hard content on, for instance Arkk CM. Chrono had a higher peak potential, but soloing on a chrono required near-perfect play, while merely very good play would get the job done on a Scourge.It's funny because I have a complete different experience with Arkk CM. And most have, btw. You just give anecdotal proof here. And if you look at real statistics it's only one thing that really makes Arkk CM incredibly easy (and fast): DAMAGE, and a lot of it! You can skip a lot of mechanics that way. And you know which class is actually your worst pick in that matter .... indeed, the Necro (and all its specializations)!!! EDIT: sorry, my bad, I see you were referring to solo-ing Arkk CM: well, it's been done better by other classes already (just do a search), but let's assume you're on the right track here, and Scourge would be the absolute record holder in this very niched self-constructed (read: player-constructed) challenge, it still says nothing about ... well anything really! I mean, I think thief holds the record of highest critter damage .... what should we do with this info??? Or the fastest solo for Lupicus that has been recorded is now set by a Firebrand ... again, what should we, or better yet: ANet, do with this info? But most important: these are all very anecdotal references of people that created their own challenges, which is mostly not even widely competed at as well. We're not talking about speed clearing raids here, which has pretty much fully supported competitions out there (btw: where Necro is generally again considered as your worst pick!)

I'm actually one of those that find it even kind of fair that the Scourge got nerfed in PvP and was supposed to receive nerfs in WvW (although ANet failed again, by the looks of it). They have been a staple in those gamemodes for a long time now! I hope its place is going to be covered by new blood now, they deserve it! I still have to come across the first Mesmer or Ranger main that wishes themselves completely out of the PvE endgame META which they've been dominating since HoT, so that it can be replaced by new blood, i.e. by Necro's??!!! they definitely deserve it!

I kinda agree with your situational sketch here, and I'm sure absolutely everyone agrees with your last two tiers. But you forgot to compare it to other classes: like the Warrior which is pretty much a god in all your tiers! But forget about the Warrior (imo the most OP class in whole of PvE atm), everyone seems to also forget you don't HAVE to run full Berserker/Assassin or Viper gear. I mean, I can tell by own experience that even Ele is absolutely god tier in the hands of every beginner if you give it full Celestial, but no-one does that! Or slap on Harriers in combination with Magi's and It also carries much better in raids than any Necro can! Everyone tends to forget these kind of builds which pretty much any other class has examples of. But that's understandable, cause all these other classes also have several META (read: in your PvE Legendary and Platinum tiers) builds at their disposal. So it's completely understandable that even lower tier players are mostly focussing on these META builds (btw, also because of sites like snowcrows, etc.), and I would even recommend it as well, cause it's the best way to simply get good and stay useful once you get in these higher tiers. The only reason why these beginner tier builds are widely known for Necro only, is simply because they don't have real higher tier builds (like you also acknowledged yourself).

The point is that the necromancer is a "condi king", it's designed to be one afterall. The issue there is not the necromancer, it's PvE.And again, that's the issue! They can balance gamemodes separately, but they just don't. At least not for the Necromancer (or not enough). I really don't care that much if they nerf the Necro in PvP and/or WvW as long as they really deserve it. I don't consider myself a veteran WvW or PvP player but considering my previous experience, I'm also not a casual, and according to my own experience, they are (were) in the top tier if it comes to usefulness, so it's fine they receive nerfs there, it's only fair.But again, in PvE, it's all but fair! They're not in a good spot at all, and ANet should fix that. Sure you can make it incredibly complex: i.e. by doing an advanced makeover in encounter design, or by changing the whole design of the Necromancer itself, or adding an elite spec that solves all of the before-mentioned issues of the Necro, or changing the way how conditions behave in PvE, etc., etc. And IMO that would actually be the right things to do, but after so many years and also considering the announcements lately AND don't forget the latest patch (I mean: the Death Magic redesign was absolutely laughable), I've got a feeling they will never do that!So please ANet: and throw us a bone here and just give us some simple buffs the Necromancer so much needs in PvE only. Merely tweaking some numbers as you always do with split changes: i.e. some higher condi stacks and/or durations in PvE only; some power DPS enhancements in PvE only; augmenting some shareable buffs (like Vampiric Presence) in PvE only; etc.If we can't have the real deal, at least give us that!

I know the solution to this .... Give the Necro Toughness ... surely that's what they need! ANet's issue is that they made the necromancer self sufficient in might generation and quickness. They also made it so the necromancer have huge gain of raw stats from few traits. This was made to make the necromancer's dps competitive against other profession's dps. However, by doing this they forgot why other profession weren't self sufficient in might stacking and quickness, making the necromancer overperforming in PvP/WvW. Obviously, now, a majority of profession can self sustain their might generation, yet the necromancer still do it faster (usually) with relatively low risks, low complexity involved. The vocal majority being the one having an accute conscience of how effective thing are against their own character, the necromancer is viewed as having more than enough dps. The fact that it's lackluster in PvE don't really affect this vocal majority, while the necromancer having more dps would affect them and they would be pretty angry. The necromancer is a bit to unique in it's concept, in the context of GW2 he stand out like a sore point. It's gameplay and tools pretty much sum up most the things that the vocal majority want to see removed from the game. A seemingly passive gameplay, low reliance on active defense, heavy spam of conditions, high number of area denial skills... etc. Every single point of the necromancer's design is an eyesore for the players that seek what they label as "skillfull gameplay". Which is, all in all PvP/WvW concern. What ANet did since launch is basically enforcing patch after patch their design of the necromancer. But that's the real issue, they're not really! You can't stay true to one part and dare I say it, the most negative part of their design (passive play/defences etc.), but completely forget about the other part of it: because it's also supposed to be a Condi King to be reckoned with (like you said yourself: "heavy spam of conditions")! In PvE, it already was the worst Condi class you could choose, benchmarking lower than any other class out there. And after the latest patch, it's probably even worse now (definitely if it comes to moving targets).It's just unfair to the Necro community!

I know the solution to this .... Give the Necro Toughness ... surely that's what they need!

This is a very interesting point you make, but I always wonder what you and anyone else reading this would rather choose (if you HAVE to choose):A meta where all 9 classes have a spot in the 10-man squad with a quite specific/pigeon-holed role they performORAn almost perfect balance where there is almost no real diversity between classes, so it doesn't really matter which class you take, they all do the job as fine as the other I know they're both outer bounds of the spectrum, but what should ANet according to you (and anyone else) balance towards, because I've got a feeling they're not really sure themselves. You indeed give the examples of unique class buffs: Banners and Spirits (changed from 5 to 10 players), but ANet did quite the opposite with Alacrity being a unique mesmer buff before, and making it more available across the board now. Why not take it 1 step further mix the 9 classes down to 1 class and be done with it? I know they're both really outer-bound, but it's not called 'balancing' for nothing. You will never achieve perfect balance (and you probably don't even want to) because of numerous reasons: the sheer complexity of it being one of them. But I do think you should have at least a direction in mind: i.e. your goal should never be actively unbalancing the game. And I also know the spectrum is never this 2 dimensional. But if you HAVE to choose between those two simplified balanced states, which one would you choose and why?(but if I read your sarcasm correctly you would rather go towards the first state than the latter, right? Why?)Edit: to add to my last question for: @Linken.6345: The latter was actually the design philosophy which ANet aimed for when they launched GW2 back in 2012: Every class is capable to heal, deal damage, tank, etc.: the specific role design came more or less with the launch of HoT after a lot of feedback from the community (so they said) steering towards that direction. Yes every class should be self suffiecent thats not the same as making them balanced in a group composition at all tho.Right now every class can survive by their own 10 skills just fine in the game anet nailed it down perfectly. In groups or raids (dubble groups) thats not going to be the same beast at all. ( not the way they have been churning em out and I dont know if you can make em were 10 people do 10 diffrent things on 150 diffrent traitline compositions and be equaly good at everything tbh) First clearly you dont remember the 1 mesmer 4 warrior meta in dungeons before hot release it was even worse then now.I definitely can (or with thief for skips), I never said ANet did a good job at it, I actually think they did a terrible job at it, but it was their design philosophy. And my sarcasm was towards option 2 not option 1oops, misread you there! Since we dont have option 1 now all 9 classes dont have a pigoned holed hole to fit in.Were in the pve meta do necromancer or any of it elite specs fit in mate?I agree wholeheartedly: again, ANet isnt that great at balancing imho, I mean: the Necro is literally a meme in the PvE endgame and has been since launch! I'm a big advocate of starting to fix that issue urgently (being the fact that it's my primary since launch). But what makes it even worse, is that ANet doesnt even have a philosophy and/or general direction anymore, by the looks of it! I mean, take the Death Magic rework: it couldn't be more useless regarding the PvE endgame ... what were they thinking: what's their direction? What's their philosophy behind it? Where would it fit in a PvE endgame scenario? Just an example of course, since you mentioned the Necro!If wer going by meta we would have nothing but what power chrono dps, power dhs, condi 40k weavers and mirrages. ( only fight I seen mirrages prefered is twins other then that you look for cdps or dps)Tanks only chrono and healers 1 druid +1 healer if needed. If you want anet to buff more people to 10 man buffs like spotter (ranger), assassins presence (revenant) . life leech (necro buff that one damage vise obviously) pinpoint (engi)Empower allies (war)Elementalist could give 10 wide crit chance boost maybeMesmer 10 man chance to dubble strike your weapon get a mirror image.Guardian will need something else their buffs toughness.Thief I really have no idea.Yea, could be a solution, you are a bit pigeon holed of course, if you want to raid with a certain class, you have to take that unique buff, but it's not like it's a very severe change from the builds you can choose from now (they are by design quite pigeon holed as well). So all in all, I think you got at least my vote there! Wondering what others think, though! If thats what you want then advocate for more 10 wide buffs so you only need 1 of each class. ( and Im all for that to happen but it wont unless the buffs are significant) Then you get the oh I want to play x class, check lfg all the groups in looking for group already have x class anet please buff my class since I cant play it.Well, and there you mention indeed another issue that you'll probably see happening then! Might still be better than the alternative where you sometimes see where certain classes are literally kicked in advance or at least frowned upon, cause they're just not good enough! But its not going to change that some classes do better at some bosses then others.If you want balance cut 8 out of 9 classes thats the only way to get balanceSure, that's the absolute extreme, you can still go for 9 different classes, they do the same (same numbers, same statistics, etc.), their look and feel just differ. Again, not really what anyone want, but you could at least go towards a more fully self-sufficient: every class can fulfil every role kind of balance (which is more towards the original second option I was proposing ... not really my favourite ... I think)

I thinks that's more or less reality as well at the moment (save for some odd ones out), and maybe we should be happy with what we have at the moment. But it's also a bit of a weird "balance" as well, don't you think? Why are there only a few classes (or 2-3 like you mentioned) allowed to do real good support/heal/other specific roles and (almost) all classes should be good at dealing DPS?

This is a very interesting point you make, but I always wonder what you and anyone else reading this would rather choose (if you HAVE to choose):A meta where all 9 classes have a spot in the 10-man squad with a quite specific/pigeon-holed role they performORAn almost perfect balance where there is almost no real diversity between classes, so it doesn't really matter which class you take, they all do the job as fine as the other I know they're both outer bounds of the spectrum, but what should ANet according to you (and anyone else) balance towards, because I've got a feeling they're not really sure themselves. You indeed give the examples of unique class buffs: Banners and Spirits (changed from 5 to 10 players), but ANet did quite the opposite with Alacrity being a unique mesmer buff before, and making it more available across the board now. Why not take it 1 step further mix the 9 classes down to 1 class and be done with it?I know they're both really outer-bound, but it's not called 'balancing' for nothing. You will never achieve perfect balance (and you probably don't even want to) because of numerous reasons: the sheer complexity of it being one of them. But I do think you should have at least a direction in mind: i.e. your goal should never be actively unbalancing the game. And I also know the spectrum is never this 2 dimensional. But if you HAVE to choose between those two simplified balanced states, which one would you choose and why?(but if I read your sarcasm correctly you would rather go towards the first state than the latter, right? Why?)Edit: to add to my last question for: @Linken.6345: The latter was actually the design philosophy which ANet aimed for when they launched GW2 back in 2012: Every class is capable to heal, deal damage, tank, etc.: the specific role design came more or less with the launch of HoT after a lot of feedback from the community (so they said) steering towards that direction.

This is a very interesting point you make, but I always wonder what you and anyone else reading this would rather choose (if you HAVE to choose): A meta where all 9 classes have a spot in the 10-man squad with a quite specific/pigeon-holed role they performORAn almost perfect balance where there is almost no real diversity between classes, so it doesn't really matter which class you take, they all do the job as fine as the otherI know they're both outer bounds of the spectrum, but what should ANet according to you (and anyone else) balance towards, because I've got a feeling they're not really sure themselves. You indeed give the examples of unique class buffs: Banners and Spirits (changed from 5 to 10 players), but ANet did quite the opposite with Alacrity being a unique mesmer buff before, and making it more available across the board now.

What I hate the most, is that ANet is trying to fix (read: nerf) the Necro in WvW and PvP, but they're again tagging it along in PvE, where this class is considerably the worst pick in the game (especially the PvE endgame), and has been for so long now. And again, making it even worse! Also, I can't help to feel they tried to make the Necro more interesting in all gamemodes (including PvE) with the new Death Magic, but couldn't be more wrong with the changes they implemented. In PvE Toughness is THE most worthless stat you can build around, and exactly that one stat the Necro needed the least: it's literally the worst damage dealer in the game: let's give it toughnessit's the most selfish class in the game: let's give it solely applying to self: toughnessit's the one and only class in the game with terrible active defences: let's give it the most passive defence in the game: toughnessI really don't get it!!!

How is it nerf in pve ? In raids, where I really enjoy playing scourge, it's ability to land shade abilities is going to be awful on bosses that move a lot. If a boss moves out of your shades all your shade abilities become completely useless now there will be no pulsing AoE around your character. If a boss moves too much you will have to just not use sand shades at all to be able to use your shade abilities on the boss which would be a over dps loss for a class that's already underperforming. This is going to be painful on bosses like soulless horror. I think Shade is still doing fine even the nerf comes. It has lower cd compared to the WvW version and also you have Alacrity which makes the cd even lower.I dont think Scourge will have any problems to keep the Shade up on bosses, Just a bit harder to land skills properly.It will get a lot harder. Dps might go up a bit on golem, but overall it will still be below 30k.How would dps go up a bit on golem? Am I missing a buff here? More dmg from poison and the poison Nova's will get stronger when selecting deathmagic But you are going to give up curses or soul reaping for death magic which would result in an immediate dps loss in itself what are you thinking?Or did you forget you need the scepter trait from curses and dhuum fire from soul reaping??? You would be surprised how little Soul Reaping adds for Scourge, but just the extra Toughness you get from DM makes it pretty unplayable in endgame group content for tanking reasons. Don't think any tank is want to go that high just so someone can play a subpar DPS like Necro. Only use of Scourge (or Necro in general), with or without DM, in all of PvE from what I see will be Soulless Horror, where you can tank with Trailblazer and maybe now taking DM while being the Epi bot.Aside from that, just don't even bother playing Necro. It was already so far behind everything else and now it's even worse. Hmmm, I was actually thinking about this, and this is theorycrafting to the max of course, but might there be a new role in store for the Necro (mostly Scourge probably)? A full DPS tank!? You can go full viper (or berserker if you want) and still have the most toughness. That way the rest could go base toughness entirely.No Support tanks needed anymore, we could now raid with DPS tanks! And what better job for the Necro to fulfil that role than anyone else, for their DPS was already poor BUT viable (as everyone always says), and with no real loss to their "viable" DPS, they can now fulfil an important role.Please react (of course I'm overlooking something really obvious here :), orso) Chrono already does the tanking as hybrid DPS though, except it also brings group buffs and buff extension to the table, as well as being able to block a wide variety of mechanics, which at times is really important, see Deimos etc.I know, but Chrono can then just go full Berserker/Diviner instead of needing Knight/Commander pieces. Which adds to overall DPS output, right?

How is it nerf in pve ? In raids, where I really enjoy playing scourge, it's ability to land shade abilities is going to be awful on bosses that move a lot. If a boss moves out of your shades all your shade abilities become completely useless now there will be no pulsing AoE around your character. If a boss moves too much you will have to just not use sand shades at all to be able to use your shade abilities on the boss which would be a over dps loss for a class that's already underperforming. This is going to be painful on bosses like soulless horror. I think Shade is still doing fine even the nerf comes. It has lower cd compared to the WvW version and also you have Alacrity which makes the cd even lower.I dont think Scourge will have any problems to keep the Shade up on bosses, Just a bit harder to land skills properly.It will get a lot harder. Dps might go up a bit on golem, but overall it will still be below 30k.How would dps go up a bit on golem? Am I missing a buff here? More dmg from poison and the poison Nova's will get stronger when selecting deathmagic But you are going to give up curses or soul reaping for death magic which would result in an immediate dps loss in itself what are you thinking?Or did you forget you need the scepter trait from curses and dhuum fire from soul reaping??? You would be surprised how little Soul Reaping adds for Scourge, but just the extra Toughness you get from DM makes it pretty unplayable in endgame group content for tanking reasons. Don't think any tank is want to go that high just so someone can play a subpar DPS like Necro. Only use of Scourge (or Necro in general), with or without DM, in all of PvE from what I see will be Soulless Horror, where you can tank with Trailblazer and maybe now taking DM while being the Epi bot.Aside from that, just don't even bother playing Necro. It was already so far behind everything else and now it's even worse.Hmmm, I was actually thinking about this, and this is theorycrafting to the max of course, but might there be a new role in store for the Necro (mostly Scourge probably)? A full DPS tank!? You can go full viper (or berserker if you want) and still have the most toughness. That way the rest could go base toughness entirely.No Support tanks needed anymore, we could now raid with DPS tanks! And what better job for the Necro to fulfil that role than anyone else, for their DPS was already poor BUT viable (as everyone always says), and with no real loss to their "viable" DPS, they can now fulfil an important role.Please react (of course I'm overlooking something really obvious here :), orso)

How is it nerf in pve ? In raids, where I really enjoy playing scourge, it's ability to land shade abilities is going to be awful on bosses that move a lot. If a boss moves out of your shades all your shade abilities become completely useless now there will be no pulsing AoE around your character. If a boss moves too much you will have to just not use sand shades at all to be able to use your shade abilities on the boss which would be a over dps loss for a class that's already underperforming. This is going to be painful on bosses like soulless horror. I think Shade is still doing fine even the nerf comes. It has lower cd compared to the WvW version and also you have Alacrity which makes the cd even lower.I dont think Scourge will have any problems to keep the Shade up on bosses, Just a bit harder to land skills properly.It will get a lot harder. Dps might go up a bit on golem, but overall it will still be below 30k.How would dps go up a bit on golem? Am I missing a buff here? More dmg from poison and the poison Nova's will get stronger when selecting deathmagic But you are going to give up curses or soul reaping for death magic which would result in an immediate dps loss in itself what are you thinking?Or did you forget you need the scepter trait from curses and dhuum fire from soul reaping???Hmmm, you're obviously never gonna give up curses, but Soul Reaping ... We'll have to test how that pans out: I guess the new Death Magic is still not gonna outperform Dhuumfire though.It is a buff for core Necro though, but core DPS was SOOOOOOOOOO far behind of Reaper and Scourge, I doubt if these changes will make core more competitive (DPS-wise) So, to conclude, I'm afraid these are all straight up nerfs again for Necro if we look at it from a PvE endgame perspective. And there I thought we couldn't sink any deeper (being the bottom of the barrel, for a long time already) ...

How is it nerf in pve ? In raids, where I really enjoy playing scourge, it's ability to land shade abilities is going to be awful on bosses that move a lot. If a boss moves out of your shades all your shade abilities become completely useless now there will be no pulsing AoE around your character. If a boss moves too much you will have to just not use sand shades at all to be able to use your shade abilities on the boss which would be a over dps loss for a class that's already underperforming. This is going to be painful on bosses like soulless horror. I think Shade is still doing fine even the nerf comes. It has lower cd compared to the WvW version and also you have Alacrity which makes the cd even lower.I dont think Scourge will have any problems to keep the Shade up on bosses, Just a bit harder to land skills properly.It will get a lot harder. Dps might go up a bit on golem, but overall it will still be below 30k.How would dps go up a bit on golem? Am I missing a buff here?

How do you even plan to do fractal CMs + T4 without Ascended gear? Tear of Alba only provides 15 AR so at worst you would need 130 AR (15 from tear, 5 from singularity) and never use up your singularity. And this is exactly what I mean with not focussing on the real issue at hand. Arguing over a small detail between brackets, which I indeed mistyped. My apologies. It should've been: (maybe even not all ascended). (Say exotic weapons, or even armor (pieces), you can still do CM's and won't even be shamed beforehand, just because you rolled the desired class.) The real issue imo is this whole class elitism META that we're in. And you know the weird thing is that I don't even care that much about elitism being a thing ... I kinda even believe it's human nature (as somebody else already commented in this thread), but that it's on such a core/base element of the game (almost comparable to IRL racism): is repulsive. And imo it's so dire these days, and so heavily locked into a real niche for such a long time now (at least for the PvE endgame), that the only way out is via ArenaNet!And again the options they have are imo simple: They either change the way classes are such a core/base element in the game: i.e. make it really easy to switch to any character/profession in the game with all the stats/etc. that you've unlocked previously (again with the help of a good template and unlocking design)Or they really focus on PvE endgame balancing, making all professions desirable in endgame content: in other words META, or even better: optimal. Hint: start by optimizing the ones that haven't been META/optimal for so long now! (just a hint of course)

I'm not even sure if Trevor agrees with me, but I've got a feeling his post primarily has nothing to do with the +5/9 infusions thing. But has everything to do that you are STILL pretty much required to play certain professions when pugging fractal CM's. And if you have one character that is perfectly geared (read: with +5/9) and happens to be your favourite character, but is also just not considered one of the elite professions, you're left with 3 options: Re-gear to a profession that is desired (i.e. an all-time elite profession: Mesmer, Ranger (since Druid), Warrior, Ele), which costs a lot even if you already have that (perfect) gear, but on a different character (profession). Imo, ANet could make this a lot easier for us when they finally provide us with a good template design!Use less than perfect gear (maybe even not ascended) and still choose to play one of those elite professions, while leaving your own preferred profession (your main) on the shelf ... Imo, ANet could fix that, by focussing a bit more on PvE endgame balancing instead of almost only on PvP and WvW (it's ridiculous how strong some professions are in the PvE endgame pretty much since launch already)Don't pug when you want to do fractal CM's. although a favourite answer for all those Mesmer/Ranger/Warrior/Ele mains out there, it's imo also the one real toxic/elite answer that you can give, and it's not going to change anything to this this very long-sitting unhealthy META in the PvE endgame, which is not even blacklisting whole professions in the game, but also the players behind them who happen to like these professions the most (calling them their mains): see point 1 for that!

just some:low HP: Why do Necros have more HP, good health, can cast long time marks and wells on the move and do their walking aoe of death run? I just want to remind everyone here (including ANet) that these kind of posts are only concerning the PvP gamemode.I.e. as a Necro main, I can see the Necro's potential, still (after a lot of nerfing already, but hey) in PvP and WvW. But that said, it's the WORST pick by far if we're talking about the PvE endgame (Raids, T4 Fractals, CM's, etc.). And history tells us that these kind of posts make professions like Necromancer be nerfed even further to the ground, which might even be deserved as well in gamemodes like PvP and WvW (again, they ARE still doing quite OK in PvP and WvW), but is (I can only believe) accidentally taken along the nerf road in PvE as well, making them even more terrible than they are right now in PvE (if that's even possible). The latest nerf to Dhuumfire being a prime example at that (the ICD in PvE was completely unnecessary)! Then I also like to give a quick reply on the HP issue (see quoted) concerning both Ele and Necro (and Warrior, Guardian, Thief). I'm a prominent supporter of a "one Health Pool fits all" change! Giving every profession the medium base HP. I know: this will effectively nerf my main the Necro. But, having quite some experience in the game, I see Health as the absolute worst defensive mechanic there is! Compared to active defences like blocks, invulns and (extra) evades it's really insignificant, and mostly only really helpful towards new players that first need to learn (telegraphed) encounter mechanics, before they can use their active defences skilfully. But imo, you should hardly balance to that group, and if you do, do it differently: i.e. by buffing/updating Vitality/Toughness modifiers, so you can at least choose to go more tanky or glassy, whatever you prefer. Now your only option is to switch profession ... which is a wrong choice, imo!

Wow, how individual people here are still thinking that they can (even slightly) change a community. It's really astonishing.It's common knowledge that how bigger a group, how more difficult it is to change it. And happily ever after, our GW2 community is quite big!The only ones that can REALLY change this community are the ones that sets the rules and boundaries of the universe that we play in ...And I can understand all the complaints from this community ranging from meta elitism, till not pulling your weight. I'm not surprised at all with huge differences between classes, ranging from some being upper gods and almost being mandatory in all fights/encounters up till some being literally rejected in parties even before a fight starts, because they're almost utterly useless!ANet, please wake up!

What you expect is an illusion. In reality, ... - put you're very arbitrary conclusion in here - Easy argumentation = easy argumentation! Imo not really adding to the discussion!Anyway, my glass sphere isn't properly working atm, I can't predict the future, so again, I would actually really like to see what happens if we do see these kind of changes, instead of a far more easier prediction on the barely ever changing culture that we have seen for ages now. On another note: Balance patch out .... we'll see if it changes anything ...

Maybe it's easier if I give an example in a Flavour of the Month setting:I expect the following, let's say March 2018, your optimal DPSer on paper would be a Deadeye, best boon share results would come from a Renegade and the biggest healing numbers comes from a Necro, etc. (obviously all sucked into a vacuum, because if I really have to specify a full detailed scope here, I'd might just apply at ANet straight away). Now the LFG might look like this:T4+CM's: Ren, BN (Blood Necro), 3 DPS (pref. Deadeyes) P+F+KP.But coming April 2018, it might be this:T4+CM's: Chrono, Druid, BS, 2DPS (pref. Weaver) P+F+KP. (looks familiar right?)But I expect that already after month 3, with the practical efficiency of an ever changing environment in mind, ppl are not even going to bother anymore, and will ask something like:T4+ CM's: Heal, CC, 3 DPS P+F+KPor:T4+CM's: Heal, 4 whatevers P+F+KPor just:T4 + CM's + recs P+F+KP I actually like the last examples far better than the first (very specific META-rized) ones! I have to say, this is obviously all theorycrafting, but something I would definitely like to see pan out.In a general way of speaking I've never heard an exciting ever so dynamic game is chasing ppl away. On the opposite: I have heard of a same ol' stuck (= current META) gaming environment, chasing ppl away!

Hmmmmmmmmmm, if we go by that analogy, you could say that the requirements in this case are that of your cultural background ..... or maybe even race/skin color ....... Not sure if we should further this discussion before it gets into a very volatile one! (Btw, big disclaimer here, it's a joke of course, really don't want to get into some kind of a weird discussion here!)Anywho, I still don't think we should look into the community to change or adept to anything if the facilitator (read: ANet) imo is the only one that can and should take action! Having such a specific and heavily set META for ages now, is just not healthy .... It never is .... It's time for change. And imo, the solution is exactly that: change and preferably in the future more frequently as well! Meta is a natural result of a game, of any game. Saying that it's not healthy is like saying water shouldn't get you wet. The only way you can make players not care about the meta is if you make them not care about the game itself. But then they'd just leave and the game would die. I presume you were talking to me, cause you were quoting me. But I never said that I'm against META, I'm just against the current very long sitting meta. In fractals and raids, it has been Chrono/BS/Druid .... for ages now (with only a few small tweaks, nothing major). If it was up to me, we would have a complete different META every month (or maybe even every 2 weeks), which will also enable a lot more build designing/(theory-)crafting/min-maxing, etc. Which is something I like to do. Now it's just another: and TOP-DPS goes to ..... - drum roll - .... ahhhh, it's Ele AGAIN (since 2012), etc.!There's also another solution, and that's really balancing up to a point where every class/spec/build/trait/skill (even) is balanced up to a point of max. 3% difference to others. But that's going to be FAR more complex and imo will become tedious in the long run! If it's up to me: really spice things up with balance patches (not 5% auto-attack increase) and have them even more often! Very few players can master a build in such a short period, so what this would do is make the vast majority of the player population feel useless, get annoyed and eventually quit. On your other "solution", you can't quantify all differences. You can measure dps difference. You can't measure the effect of added utility. If you homogenize the available utility, you take away profession identity. It's always a give and take. And that's just an example, there are other factors as well. I don't think the level of balance you speak of is even possible without ruining the fun of playing the game. I completely agree with your second part, but on your first part I would question you straight away: Is the inability (for a lot of players) to quickly master your new build really a problem??? If anything, it will help towards leveling the playing field. Because your old build is still usable, in fact, in practice it's probably up to par to an 'on paper' better build, but which is just not mastered by a lot of people yet! And a more (in practice) leveled playing field, will mean that it also doesn't really matter what you ask when you go into T4 fractals (CM) or raids, cause whether it's META or not, the practicality of it all, is that the efficiency will be pretty much the same (or close to each other) (which is definitely not the case at the moment, T4 fractals will go a lot faster if I go with my Weaver then if I take my Scourge for instance, while I'm far more practiced (and even better geared) with my Scourge than Weaver) You seem to want changes that are both big enough to make players want to change and small enough so that the end result doesn't matter. The two are mutually exclusive.Let me correct that sentence for you:You seem to want changes that are big enough to make players want to change therefore also big enough so that the end result on paper does matter! The two are causally connected!In practicality, (just like in real life analogies: take your own example of looking for a job for instance), the differences between mastering something compared to merely meeting the requirements can differ hugely - even more so in an ever changing world - !!! Also causally connected!