RAZOR.7246

If you're given the responsibility of balancing a class, you should know what is actually broken about it instead of just changing coefficients and numbers just because of benchmark videos. If you can't reach that level in the first place and then try to make adjustments that don't really address the main issue with the build while hitting the viability of the build at every skill level, then it's just incompetence. We're talking about adjustments being made BECAUSE of how builds are performing at the highest level in a very optimal situation instead of amywhere else. Balance has nothing to do with completing content. It's about adjusting the viability of a build to compete with other builds for the same content. In any case, if they want to get more casual players into harder content, which they do, this way of balancing isn't the way to go about it. They have to literally break classes in terms of golem damage just to garner some interest and then nerf it in the wrong way which puts it back into obscurity.

I spent the whole day today running around strike missions to see what was up with this "run with a dev" achievement. I have to say it really grinds my gears to see them joining casual groups and trying to look impressive while not even doing top tier DPS and failing to manage healing on certain mechanics properly. I never encountered a dev in a group with an "EXP" label in LFG. 1 thing that really stuck out for me was this 1 Dev who was running on a WB but came nowhere close to what his DPS should have been. I know because I significantly outdpsed him on the same class in the same run with a simplified DPS rotation compared to the one they tried to nerf, I.e. the really complex one SC posted that benched 48k. What really gets to me is this nerf to WB happened because of that bench when the devs cannot reach anywhere near those numbers or level of play themselves in an actual fight. I'll also admit, it really rubbed me the wrong way to watch that guy trying to "greed" DPS unsuccessfully without regard for the group and to see him drop without a word of thanks which is an established basic group etiquette in this game. I also seriously doubt after what I've witnessed today if they can handle the kind of complex rotations that manage to squeeze out that level of DPS in GOLEM SITUATIONS, let alone actual fights. You need to have an understanding of where they're squeezing out this extra damage compared to other players instead of blindly making damage nerfs. In the case of WB on particular, it's the number of extra hits these players can manage compared to everyone else. Players outside this skill bracket find the use of F2 for extra hits to be totally kitten for example because of the way the movement works, especially in a normal fight. I get that it has a certain playstyle for competitive play, but does F2 really need to differ that much from the way F1 currently works? They pretty much do the same thing except that 1 unnecessarily forces you to move into less favourable positions. It makes PvE WB support builds unpopular because it's annoying to use. The other issue is that WB is a condi DPS that plays like a power DPS. If you cannot hit, especially with rushing justice which forces you into a melee position, you lose a lot of damage compared to both power and condi builds without having the perks of either I.e. burst or passive/range DPS. In lieu of this, if p/t or s/p or p/p is the direction they want to go in, the way rushing justice works needs to change to remain in line with the playstyle. My suggestion is that it should trigger on a tether basis and this current mechanic of rushing on F1 be moved F2 for simplification of the class. Once you can ensure that the gap in terms of the number of hits on rotations between complex and less intense are closer, then you can start looking at damage nerfs across the board. Right now it's just plain as day what they don't know about the way damage works on different classes and just nerf based on the first video they see.

Right idea to use the Wizard's Vault to get players into harder content. Terrible execution and it's not going to do anything other than cause more unrest until the fundamental issues are fixed. Why don't you devs actually go into casual groups first and see what the problems are before doing stuff like this. I've seen how you lot group together to do stuff which is not reflective of the pug experience even if your skill levels aren't particularly high. In terms of CO CM, it's not a hard fight. Mechanics are not punishing and are pretty much the same as normal with a few small exceptions that still can be handled easily. Pretty good CM for beginners who want to get into this sort of thing. Very easy clear for semi-experienced groups. What's the problem then? The issue is where groups actually wipe. 1 is the CC, which is fair enough, I don't think that should be changed at all. If you can't do something as simple as CC, you probably shouldn't be trusted to manage harder mechanics anyway. The other is the enrage timer. Have you seen how bad the average player is at doing DPS? Just tag up in a convergence or something and you'll see them doing 1/2 or 1/3 of what a fairly average DPS should be doing. That's because they play on builds that focus more on their survivability and they don't see how much that takes away from what they need to be doing at all because the casual player doesn't give enough of a kitten to get a DPS meter or to do anything about it even if they do. I've said for many years now, the biggest thing stopping players from getting into raiding is the enrage timers because they cannot play at their own pace. Take away the enrage timer on CO CM and it's a comfortable clear for a noob group learning how to do mechanics although it would take 20+mins instead of the 10min restriction currently in place. That's not an exaggeration, almost all of these kinds of casual groups I've been in are at around 50% when enrage timer hits. I can tell you, having played in many a top tier and even mid-range group that the enrage timer doesn't bother anyone in a semi-decent group and as such, is a useless mechanic to put in place that only punishes weak players who can't DPS.

I've done convergences over 40 times now across multiple accounts both in public and private instances. The big issue that I think needs to be addressed is the significant disparity when it comes to the difficulty of Demon Knight vs Sorrow. DK is literally a DPS golem. I can stand there with my full essences, expect supports to run essence to Zojja and still finish the instance comfortably without really having to move at all. Even the large AoE attack can be easily countered with a reasonably competent healer. On the other hand, you have Sorrow who has multiple mechanics that move you around, interrupt you, prevent you from doing mechanics and really kitten up your zerg. The worst of these is undoubtedly the one where you have to CC while he's trying to blow the group away. Now most of his mechanics can be avoided by simply standing behind him. However, try translating that to a bunch of players in public who either don't have the skill or are simply just not bothered to follow instructions. Having done as many as I have, I can tell you that people that are coming in just to AFK or not willing to contribute much to the fight are becoming a bigger and bigger issue in public on Sorrow exclusively. It has to be taken into account, that unlike other fights, players are already significantly handicapped without access to Waystations (EMP 2.0). Sorrow's mechanics dictate that multiple players have to make significant alterations to their builds just to compensate for the overall CC requirements. More often than not, your group might be trying to run essences to Zojja when he starts blowing and you can't recover in time to CC. Most of the time, a public group just doesn't have enough CC to deal with his mechanics. Difficulty aside, it has to be taken into account that this is not a short instance and it is excessively punishing for the time investment when you're forced into an uncooperative group in public instances. Because of Sorrow's mechanics and the need for your entire group essentially to run Essences, your group would probably be doing around half the damage they would be otherwise doing on DK. In lieu of this, I propose the following changes to these fights that maintains a certain level of difficulty, yet makes things significantly less punishing for players: 1. Firstly, the CC bar should come up first for at least 5-7s before he starts blowing players away to give groups a fairer chance to break his bar. If the bar fails to break, similar to the Matriarch fight in VB, then Sorrow should start doing the blowing mechanic. Similar to that, DK should also have CC bars before his AoE attack. 2. CC mechanic should activate at every X5%, including phases on Sorrow, to avoid significant clashes with running essence at X0%. On DK, CC mechanic should spawn more frequently every 5% instead to add another layer of difficulty to the fight. 3. On Sorrow exclusively, breaking the CC bar should reward players with a 5% cumulative damage buff to compensate for the significantly lower damage that a group would be doing on this fight. Other solutions could include reducing the health on Sorrow significantly or halving the CC requirements on his CC bar. Zojja could also provide significant buffs to players who actually bother to run Essence to her as an added incentive.

I like the part where you've completely disregarded everything I've said and are trying to identify weaknesses based on things that I haven't said at all. This is nothing more than straw manning. I've already mentioned before. You can't do it this way because the same thing that's been happening is going to repeat itself. You're going to get classes that are OP in certain instances and completely unviable in a lot of others because of their class design. The result is these classes getting "balanced" again to the point of unviability to bring them in line on those fights where they are OP. It doesn't work because it doesn't address the fundamental issue for why these classes are underperforming on fights. Balancing based on coefficients didn't work before and it isn't going to work now because it doesn't address fundamental problems with class design. This line of thinking is what got the meta into this mess in the first place. This only works if the assumption that class design is reasonably functional relative to the overall combat system, which it isn't. Insisting that we should stick with it instead of fixing the root problem is just madness. A class with 33k bench is "overperforming" when classes doing 40k bench supposedly can't compete. There's a huge problem with the class on 40k bench then because that's the class that's not performing to it's optimum level while the other one is. We're going to be sitting here at the next patch complaining about the exact same issues. It's a guarantee because these changes are not going to work. You can just block me now and it wouldn't bother me 1 bit. In fact, I'd prefer if you did.

I've already said; Balance classes around the 6 points I've previously mentioned. These 6 points are Rotation, Range/Melee capabilities, Mobility, Access to Utility, Pet Tanking and Cleave. If a class is lacking in 1 area because of it's design, then another area from these 6 points should be buffed to compensate for that to make it viable. If any of these areas can be improved within the current design, then it should be improved. It's not game or design breaking to buff 1 or more of these aspects on classes that need it. In we're specifically looking at melee vs ranged DPS, a significant improvement to mobility capabilities would compensate for this. This is not a theory. This is what happens in practice. If you can blink on mobile fights like 100CM without having to compromise on your DPS to do so, you're going to do a lot more DPS. Portal Strats are a thing in highly advanced and coordinated groups for this reason. Instead of dodging out and back in for mechanics where a ranged class can just move backwards, if you can avoid the mechanic altogether, you possess the same advantage that a ranged class has. Being able to cleave is a huge boost to the QoL of players in a multitude of scenarios and the game rewards you for cleaving with most fights benefiting from the effects of cleave. In terms of rotation, a harder rotation naturally should yield more damage. At the same time, a melee class should possess the ability to recover their rotations more easily than a ranged class when those rotations are interrupted. Not all classes can have viable access to pet tanking or range nor should that be the case. But to compensate, increased mobility, survivability or access to better utility should be given to those classes. Buffs to coefficients like they've been doing are going to do absolutely nothing. These are not good changes just because they look like a significant upgrade at face value. This is balancing around performance on a static golem and not a reflection of a proper fight scenario. Also this line of thinking is predicated on the notion that the classes are already well designed with respect to their combat system which, as previously established, they are not. A class that has a bench that is significantly worse and by significantly we're looking at around 20% DPS and still perceived to be overperforming compared to a class that theoretically has superb DPS reflects a significant flaw in class design for that class to perform at it's optimum level in the meta.

Clearly they're confused between making catalyst a support or a DPS. All the issues with the class were coming the moment they slapped easily available quickness onto a DPS class. If they want it to be a DPS then invest into that and remove the quickness giving ability of Catalysts. Instead slap it on weavers where you give quickness every time you change attunements or use a Dual Attack or something like that. Reworking Invigorating Strikes to do this for example would work well.

I didn't say I want every class to become Mech. I said you have to balance based on those 6 things that Mech does exceptionally well instead of just changing coefficients which is not going to change anything at all. I guarantee it now that nothing is going to change with this patch. They already did this before and it did nothing. The problem is not the damage on classes. 40+K benchmarks is already very good DPS. The problem is getting those classes to do good damage and feel comfortable in a combat scenario with the limits of their class design. Focusing on trying to force unique spec designs into the meta by changing coefficients is not the solution. You're looking at a scenario here where they want ridiculous benchmarks just to make a class viable in the name of unique spec design. This is just going to make more and more classes OP on a few fights and unviable in others. What's going to end up happening is that another balance will take place to reduce the effectiveness of these classes in those fights and ending in the scenario where the class is "nerfed into oblivion" for months on end. It's been happening over and over and over all in the name of unique spec design. The unique spec design in the first place needs to fit with their combat system and they don't on most classes which is why a class with such a comparatively low bench can seemingly "overperform" in the current meta. These designs don't have to play the same way. You can have unique class designs without everything having to play like Mechs. They just have to be designed in such a way where they fulfill the criteria required for a smooth fight sequence compensating in certain areas over others to give that class viability based on their strengths and weaknesses. Not impose crippling drawbacks for no apparent reason in the name of "unique spec design" and then expect damage increments to cover those issues. The fundamental playstyle does not fit with their combat system. You can't expect a melee to perform in the same areas where a ranged hero excels for example, nor can you expect a relatively static class to excel in increasing amounts of scenarios that require good mobility and recovery without the proper tools and those tools are not available. The problem is that doing damage at a high level in an actual fight scenario is not possible or rather, not rewarding enough for the effort put in because most classes are severely lacking in several of those 6 areas that mech covers easily. You don't need to fulfill all 6 criteria but you do need to fulfill at least a few of those with the current fight designs. There is an optimal way to fight in the current meta and there has always been whether people want to accept it or not and it's not with their current designs. Trying to design unique specs without proper knowledge or rather with ignorance on this subject does nothing for the game. Again, trying to balance just by changing coefficients is going to do nothing for the meta.

What's the point of opening a thread like this for feedback? Have they ever made a significant change before the actual patch was released? After making ridiculous changes, their devs have the gall to publicly insult players who are calling them out on it when those players clearly know better. Look at what happened. The players were right and their meta got messed up. They don't even know where they want their regular builds to be because there's nothing to base their current balance on. Their balance "philosophy" is not even in line with the reality of squad/party roles within the meta. They're looking at PMech and thinking it's overperforming when the reality is that everything else is wildly underperforming in comparison because that's where your baseline performance should be right now. What is it about PMech that makes it so viable. Look at these things first before you decide to do anything: 1. Easy Rotation. Even if you're using a full rotation, you're essentially using skills off CD after your opener, which is very easy to pull off without interruptions due to the low cast times and the separate cast on your bot. 2. Absurd Range Capabilities. If they don't understand why this is such a problem, then they don't understand the game at all. You can continue to attack on fights with very minimal DPS loss, if at all, because of the significant alleviation of pressure from avoiding mechanics or, if you're having to move around a lot. This DPS capability is priceless in the current meta. Not your kittening benchmarks. 3. High Mobility. Even without Shift Signet to blink, your mobility is still superior because in most cases, all you would probably need to do is turn and you can continue attacking from range while other classes, melee especially have to close that ridiculous gap before they can start doing DPS again. PMech rotations do not have any interruptions as a result of this because of the nature of your skills. Even if you don't want the hassle of Nade Kit, a properly placed Rocket or Rifle Turret essentially allows you to forget about them for the rest of the fight while they do passive damage. If you need something else for a more mobile fight, take Mine and it will do good DPS because throw mine is also ranged. Rifle 5 can also help you close a gap quickly without losing much DPS. However, on other classes, your rotation interrupts in that time you're taking to adjust to the bosses movements or mehcanics in a fight. In those cases, players need to compensate with "recovery" rotations to get back to doing optimal rotations once they've recovered. This results in a significant DPS loss by comparison and the overall feeling of clunkiness. 4. Access to utility. PMech can cover Boon Stripping without having to sacrifice much DPS. Shift Signet is a valuable Stun Break and mobility option. Blunderbuss gives you perm 5 might for your group. CC is insane compared to other DPS classes. If I really wanted, I could take off Jade Cannons for High-Impact Drivers and give 15 perm might with only a slight DPS loss. Given the nerf to the bot, this would actually be a very viable option to take in a group setting because of the significantly easier bot management. I'm willing to bet this didn't even occur to them at all. 5. Bearbow Tanking. Your mech can tank fights for you in PvE. This can even extend to squad play and it is a ridiculously useful boon to have in Solo Content. Whisper of Jormag for example, while bosses or adds can aggro to it in dungeons or Fractals, massively taking pressure off your group. 6. Strong Cleave. You cannot have most of your fights rewarding good cleave damage and then having classes that can't cleave as well in comparison despite already having other issues that make them weaker by comparision. Good Cleave is a NECESSITY for any DPS class. Even in open world, good cleave provides a significant improvement to the player experience because you can clear large amounts of enemies quickly and are therefore, better rewarded. The BIGGEST problem with PMech is that it represents everything that you need from a DPS class right now. All these things together make it viable in almost ALL scenarios while every other class have needless drawbacks to hinder them. People have classes they prefer playing over others. You would not have your "mains" otherwise. You need to bring other classes up to a similar level of viability across most scenarios so players can achieve this desirable state of playing viably on their main classes. This is the gold standard of what classes need to be viable in the current meta. You should be balancing based on these 6 things. This should be your baseline aims for class balance. Not looking at benchmarks and thinking a few increases to coefficients here and there will help. I'm not saying everything should be ranged and have easy rotations with low cast times or have access to really strong CC and Boons. I'm saying you need to compensate in those areas where they are lacking. Take DE for example. You have the range, but because of your terrible mobility, you're not viable because you can't close those distances as easily to your party to get buffed. If you are melee, you need access to skills that allow you to avoid those extra 1 or 2 mechanics that cause you to significantly lose out in DPS if you want to compete with those moments of extra DPS. Distortion is an example of this but other classes that need something similar don't have access to such things without really heavy drawbacks. You would also need superior mobility options to close distances to become viable next to a range class that can do good DPS. I'm not talking about dashes either. In these cases you would either need easy access to blinks or some way to passively do damage while bosses are moving or to recover positions after handling mechanics. Your rotations should also have easier recoveries by comparison. You still have melee classes that are being idiotically rooted or restricted because why? The biggest problem for any class right now in comparision is the ability to do DPS in high mobility or high pressure situations. Actually take the time to think about why a FB is so useful kitten. People need access to things that allow them to reduce pressure from mechanics. Right now, it's Stab and Aegis. If your endgame is to take away the reliance on 1 particular class for such things, something they've failed with again BTW, then those DPS classes that need these buffs for viability should have an easier way to access these things individually without having to significantly compensate otherwise. That's IF you don't want to rely on your healers or boon supports since the direction they want to go in is 1 where a party is not over reliant on1 class for certain things. Balancing using coefficients is the same as balancing off golem DPS. It's just lazy as kitten. It has very minimal bearing on how the class fares in a real fight. They're just spamming stuff in the hope that something sticks when they don't understand what the problem is in the first place. What do you want? Honestly? All these classes doing 50k bench before they become viable? What you're going to get is what you're already seeing now; classes overperforming in 1 or 2 instances and then playing like kitten in others. It's a garbage way to balance. As long as the game significantly rewards players for easy access to good Stab/Aegis uptime, you're never going to significantly reduce usage for FB over other classes. If it doesn't, then you're significantly hitting player QoL without a viable alternative. Fix your baseline class viability first before thinking about drawbacks because right now this whole process is 1 confused mess.

Just looking at those changes, I can safely say that it's not going to do anything at all to improve the current meta. Yet again, they've failed to understand that changing a few coefficients won't do anything to address the current problems with the combat system. If your classes are benching 40k on the golem and are still considered unviable in the meta, there's something fundamentally wrong with their playstyle, not their damage. People are still going to stick to Firebrands even with the nerfs because of the perception that other classes cannot perform the "heal/dpsquick" role at the same level. Other than herald, which is uncomfortable to play in certain scenarios because of the tradeoffs between stab and other defensive utilities, FB still remains the only class that can kitten out Stab and Aegis at will, even without their tomes. Mech is still easy to play so players are not going to switch off that just because they change the bot slightly. The real problem with Power Engineer builds is that Modified Ammunition is reliant on your group maintaining a lot of conditions which doesn't make sense for a power playstyle. Instead of addressing those kinds of issues, they're just doing lazy nonsense changes to coefficients on classes they clearly dont understand enough to be balancing. I get irritated when I see kitten changes like this. On pretty much everything else we're looking at coefficient changes. This is the exact same garbage they did not too long ago which did kitten all for the meta. Your classes don't match the style of combat you are implementing which is why they are not viable in the meta. You need significantly improved mobility options, not randomly assigning coefficient values in the hope that some classes become viable.

I don't agree that Mechanist is a broken class, in PvE anyway. Have people really seen or remember the truly broken kitten if this is broken? I've played on really broken kitten over the years like Bear Form Ele, Staff Weaver or DD doing 100kDPS on raid bosses with the glitch, even SLB with the ridiculous amounts of burn application. I've played on power builds that abuse breakbars to the extent that certain bosses don't even have the chance to do anything. This comes nowhere near doing that kind of stuff. The problem is that Mech fits best into the playstyle that they're trying to create while they've slapped on significant restrictions onto other classes that make them far more uncomfortable to play in comparison. You can easily continue doing good damage in situations that you would find it a lot more difficult to do so otherwise. If you're playing with better players, you'll find that it's pretty average right now. A good Virt, BS, SLB or even Scrapper can easily beat a Mechanist in a lot of situations. You won't find rifle mechs outperforming other, more suitable classes on a lot of fights. The benchmarks are also pretty average and it would not be a first pick for anyone who just took a look at those without any real knowledge on the game. Those that autocast their f1-f3 and only AA are doing pretty kitten DPS right now and those that do proper rotations don't do excessive DPS in comparison with other DPS classes. The problem here is that other classes don't fit the kind of fights they are creating these days mostly because it's a lot harder to pull off similar DPS capabilities in more mobile situations or their rotations are perceived to be convoluted in comparison. Mech is comfortable to play while performing at a decent level for any player across all skill levels. Most other DPS classes can't say the same. It's just an overused class because of the simplified playstyle that suits most scenarios, not a broken one. The more important thing to fix is getting other classes to play in a more comfortable manner, rotation, mobility or build wise and do damage in situations where the average player would find it significantly more difficult to do so. I don't have a problem with pressing a lot of buttons. In fact, I enjoy it a lot more than standing there and hitting the same 2 or 3 buttons over and over. However, I for one don't enjoy overly long cast times, being rooted to the spot or convoluted and terribly unforgiving rotations that require the cancellation of animations for instance to provide a significant DPS increase with my 250-300 ping which already leaves me susceptible to skill cancellations in the first place nor do I enjoy being dependent on an extremely good group to perform on my class at my optimum level with crap like Modified Ammunition, Object in Motion or Empowered. I already have to compensate enough in my own ways to do top DPS without having to worry about nonsense like class drawbacks that make fights even more uncomfortable than they need to be. That's just my own experience. Given the number of players still running around on Mechs, I would think that most others feel the same. Other classes are just uncomfortable in comparision, not that Mech is broken. I am seeing people suggest stuff like increase the damage on other classes or make this even more complicated. That's not the problem here. If you already have a class that can bench close to or over 40k and it's not viable in most scenarios, then that's a major flaw with class design with regards to the meta if they can't perform. Increasing the DPS on such things just breaks the class for top players while they remain unviable for weaker ones. Convolution for the sake of added complexity also just alienates more players who've found something that suits them.

Because the majority of players want lower complexity builds given the amount of Scourges, FBs and Mechanists running around. There's demand for it because it fulfills a need. You can't balance a class based on their individual unique aspects if those aspects are fundamentally unviable to most players as a proper option in most fights in the meta. There's nothing deep about your line of thinking. You're basically saying we should keep the classes the way they are without regard for the way they play in the meta and balance around that. This is the same as balancing around golem DPS and is pretty much what they've been doing. It doesn't work because there are other significant factors in combat that you need to account for. You can only account for these things and balancing them once your class is playable in the majority of scenarios. The whole point of PvE content is to get clears. Getting consistent clears in harder content especially is a desirable outcome whether you agree with it or not.

If you're talking about Healer builds here in which case, I have at no point stated that healers need to do damage. I said Boon Supports need to do damage because that's what they're there for. Their primary build is centered around maximizing DPS which is why you don't cap Concentration on these builds, instead focusing on a balance between Concentration and DPS gear. I have not glossed over anything. If a Boon Support is doing similar damage to a healer, they are still not fulfilling their roles despite the boons they might be providing. They are not doing part of the job they're supposed to be doing. There's a reason you don't run 2 healers in the same sub on most things with 1 or 2 exceptions. They're a secondary DPS that is oriented towards complementing both Damage and Support roles. I can't believe I need to explain this. Increased DPS/Better Support = Faster Fights = Less Mechanics = Better QoL. This is not my argument. My argument is that if you want to make a class more popular, you have to give it accessibility to certain things that significantly improve a player's QoL. If you actually read my argument, you would see that it's based around balancing complex builds around LI builds so that lower skilled players are able to access content more easily on more classes while more experienced players are rewarded for complex plays. Why don't you go play something else since you can't understand why certain builds are popular in the pug meta instead of crying that the game is broken? If you can't see what needs need to be fulfilled for a better game experience, there's nothing visionary about your comments. Complexity alienates the large majority of players in this game. This is a fact and the sole reason why you're getting groups with majority Engi or FBs in the current meta. Balancing around the top few based the DPS from complex and almost impractical rotations does nothing for the players beneath them. I've played extensively in both types of groups so I don't need you to tell me what I should and should not be playing. Suggesting that the game should be made even more complex at this point does nothing at all.

A statement like this indicates that the reasons for why these presumptions are made are not considered at all. The problem here is that you have classes that can do everything while you have most other classes that can't. We're not even talking about Quickness and Alacrity here. We're talking about boons that have usefulness that significantly improve a group's QoL during a fight. This includes stuff like Capped offensive boons, Fast CC and more importantly, access to Stability and Aegis to protect the group from scenarios that would cause them extra effort. That's the reality. The end goal is for your group to have the access to the necessary boons which in turn, increases your DPS and survivability, which in turn, increases your chances of performing better/clearing content. The reason for the popularity of certain classes over others is because they fulfill needs that other classes cannot. There's nothing myopic about this. Someone who suggests that classes should have more restricted access to certain things game wide, does not understand the overall individual and team goals needed to clear content with efficiency.

There was already a similar thread a few weeks back where balance philosophy was discussed extensively. From that discussion there were a few key things that 1 could take away. 1. Split PvP/WvW balance from PvE 2. Making low LI builds more viable in current content 3. Complexity of a build or rotation should be rewarded 4. Understanding of why certain builds work so well and why others don't 5. Mobile playstyle vs Static classes 1. There's no way to balance the PvE and competitive game modes together because the needs are completely different. What you need in a competitive fight is a more rounded build where you can focus on certain elements to assist with survivability while dealing enough damage to win fights. Self-buffing also takes precedence over group. In PvE however, you're looking at specialized builds focused on maximizing their individual usefulness. My suggestion to make balancing between game modes slightly easier for Devs is to utilize traits that aren't currently useful in the current PvE meta to focus on WvW builds. Each trait line for each class right now definitely has traits that are completely useless. WvW traits should be blocked off in PvE and Vice Versa. 2. There is a huge demand for low LI builds that are viable so a player of lower skill (99.99% of all players) can go into difficult content and still perform a useful role. I would think the popularity of Scourge, Mechanist and FB builds would be enough of an indication of this. These classes are comfortable to play because of the smooth rotations and playstyle and resultantly, the ability to continue doing damage in high pressure or more mobile situations with an increased survivability due to ranged capabilities or bulkier class designs. If you want the majority of players playing other classes, you need to provide them with a similarly smooth experience. Instead, what you have is a massive drop off if a player can't execute reasonable complex rotations. They are never going to play those classes or play them well because they're uncomfortable, especially in a high-pressure scenario. Even after all the nerfs, you still get the majority of groups with 5 or 6 engineers and 2 firebrands. The average player's damage is garbage of course, but they still play it because they'll do more than they will on a more complex build while enjoying the easier experience. I've said it before, ALL classes need a LI build that will be viable in endgame content. I will elaborate on what makes a class viable later on. 3. Rewarding complexity in a build is all well and good. There are players who want this definitely. However, ONLY rewarding complexity does not cater for the vast majority of players in the game. Complexity should only be considered after establishing baselines using low LI builds and balancing around those with the increased complexity being rewarded accordingly. A complex class that deals extreme damage will not interest the average player because of the extremes in performance levels. A lot of these builds go from 0-100 with no real middle ground. Complexity does not only come in the form of rotations. Some of the drawbacks placed on classes are completely unnecessary and don't make any sense. Modified ammunition is a POWER trait. It is used on POWER engineer builds that do a lot of damage through Bursting. How does it make ANY sense at all to have your team put up conditions for you before you can do damage? Warrior has a similar trait in Empowered. Why are some classes expected to rely heavily on group support while others not? It's an unnecessary complication for balancing. There's complex and there's convoluted and stuff like this is the latter. 4. Look at what makes Mechanist so strong. It's not their benchmark damage. It's the fact that they can continue to deal good damage in situations that other classes can't or rather, that less skilled players can't on those classes. Because of the mobile nature of fights, the mechanist can still do good damage while moving around A LOT because of the ranged and passive capabilities. Not only this, being able to stand at range allows a player to avoid mechanics that they would find more difficult to avoid if they had to stand up close. The difference between standing at 0-150 range vs 200-250 is massive. Scourge is similar with a condition, ranged playstyle which coupled with very high natural bulk, allows a weaker player to perform in a situation he wouldn't be able to otherwise. If you want to balance in this current meta, you need more classes that are able to take the pressure off players in mobile fight or fights with a lot of mechanics and that primarily involves the ability to do quality sustained damage while moving. Mechanist aside, look at FB. It's so popular because of the insane amounts of defensive utility (Stab/Aegis) they are able to provide ON DEMAND while being able to upkeep reasonably high levels of healing and damage without having to compromise much on anything. Which other class can do it as easily without having to compromise anything? Nothing. ALL Healer classes at the very least need to be able to have access to ON DEMAND defensive utility of the same level while ALL Boon Supports should have access to these utilities at the cost of a significant amount of DPS. Less skilled players don't want to be taught how to play complex rotations. They just want to be able to do stuff with minimum fuss. Maybe they'll be inclined to press 1 or 2 more buttons if they feel they're doing a decent job and can do slightly better without having too much trouble. 5. More recently, we are seeing more and more mobile fights or fights with more mechanics. That's fine, if your classes are not restricted against this playstyle. You want to introduce more mobile fights but at the same time, you don't want the classes to move around accordingly? I don't understand this at all. GW2's combat system has never been like this. Why are they introducing mobility drawbacks when they want the increased mobility and mechanics to be a key facet of GW2's combat system? If anyone wants this sort of unnecessary clunkiness, they can go play FF14. My solution is very simple. Balance every class around their low LI builds. These builds should provide around 28-32k DPS on the golem while providing the player with an unrestricted experience on the class. This is not even an unreasonable amount. A proper Boon Support is able to provide this kind of damage. For more complex builds, balance the skills and unique class mechanics that are used around these LI rotations to provide the 8-12k DPS increase that would be expected of a more complex build. Mobility restrictions should be kept to a bare minimum while also rewarding enhanced mobility. 100CM is a good example. If you can blink/move quickly across the arena, you do a lot more damage. Perhaps even some sort of SAK similar to the one in Cairn could be given to players or a significant increase in access to high mobility skills as part of a simplified rotation. There are skills on every class that players will find comfortable to play around. After these basic rotations have been established, they can look at stronger utility/weapon skills that can be used to give a more advanced player their reward for playing a more complex builds. I've listed some examples below: -> Power Ranger LB 2,3,5 + Signets -> 28k DPS -> SB Soulbeast SB 1,2,4,5 + Autocast Beast Skills + Sharpening Stone, Stances -> 28k DPS (no allies) -> Power Herald Sword AA + Impossible Odds -> 28k DPS -> Power/Condi Weaver S/D Fire AA,2,3,4,5 + 2 Elementals + Signet of Fire -> 32k DPS