Anput.4620

Tbh condi mirage does as much damage as power builds atm in gear with both toughness and vitality on it.

Thats what i needed to hear, condi thief/mirage wars 2 i guess, atleast i already have a torment rev and condi DE lol.

Trailblazer Mesmer is quite literally the most broken roaming spec already, since PoF really, so imagine after the patch lol.

I thought anet said something along those lines but it wasn't posted in the patchnotes? I don't see how trailblazer mirages won't screw everyone up if not lol, will there be any source that shows the numerical changes or will we be left in the dark?

Said by Mesmer.

Thief needs, steal, backstab and 2 signets for the oneshot which is 4 skills lol.

None. 5 c h a r a c t e r s

What I think about downstate (or you or anyone else for that matter) has NOTHING to do with it's presence in the game or how much it impacts the competitiveness of the game mode. This game isn't about me or you or even some collection of people; downstate is there by Anet's definition of the game and you can't assume removing downstate makes WvW a good competitive mode because that's got massive bias and subjectivity attached to it. It's funny because if you really want to know what I think (and I already told you, so I don't know why you keep trying to ask me in different ways) ... is that you not being able to beat 2 people on your own is a really GOOD case for why downstate is IN game. I think the most telling thing is that this is yet another example of you not understanding the mode. The spirit of WvW is not about hanging around and picking fights to prove how awesome you are at PVP ... these things you constantly rally against because they ruin your fights are there because of the spirit of what WvW is ... and what it isn't. If anything, the presence of these things you don't like shouldn't be an indicator the game is wrong .. it should be an indicator you don't understand it. So you are saying that it is good to have mechanics that carry unskilled players when they already have the numbers advantage? What? Pure numbers>skill? Thats how you create a bad game. You always just spout some corporate rhetoric and then say "it doesn't have to make sense". But thats why this mode is so popular and many other PvP games that follow the standard philosophy aren't amirite. What makes you think WvW isn't a competitive PvP mode? It is very obvious from the start what it was supposed to be, execution just was quite terrible. There’s also a resurrect cap too...not really sure how many players, but only so many players can actually contribute to a Rez. Perhaps someone could clarify how many, since I don’t actually know what the cap is. Regardless 1 player can cleave up to 5 targets, while only one person can resurrect one other person, so ya, if you have 5 people, you can cleave 25 people. If they have 5 people, they can only resurrect someone with 5 people Even if they can only res with 5 poeple they will have more poeple leftover to fight back, also if 5 poeple sit there and eat all AoE nuke then they desere to die lol. Sure, for some people they are. That's not really relevant to the thread though. It's certainly not a reason to get rid of it. In fact, the no-downstate events offering some variety is a good reason to keep downstate for non-event play. In no downstate events i feel like the more skilled players can pull off more things, and they feel that too. Maybe we should have it the opposite and have downstate events instead, this way you can keep your "variety".

It's not just about hating, but about numbers and balance, and anything that benefits the larger group more is bad because that causes even more snowball. Most competitive games have systems in place to prevent this but this game seems to embrace it.

Has rezz speed be nerfed? As that is also a heal and should be lower according with the new damage, along with downed healthpool.

the cap is 5. the res is really fast so 1 spam doesn't come into effect unless the ressing side is too slow. more coordinated bombs and better defensive strategy overshadows ressing completely. this is assuming under 30 maybe even 20 cuz 50s is lol. abundantly clear. arguing with people here incessantly is going to get you nowhere tho. everyone knows your stance so how about we just call it a day. there are valid points on both sides, but anet isn't going to remove down state. on some level I think you know this, so you're arguing for the sake of arguing. have fun with that. Heck, even nerfs, not removal would be good, it needs nerfs anyways with the reduced damage or any smallscale outnumber will become impossible, i don't see how what i am saying doesn't make any sense. I feel like you just like getting carried by numbers and your ally pressing F with stab after some thief/mesmer oneshot you lol. Reaper. Never join a party. Never join the squad if I follow zerg always alone carrying myself And you say that in a 1v2 or 1v3 vs opponents of the same skill level of you downstate favours you? Bigger groups have more poeple to res with and more poeple to spam 1 for damage if they get downed. I believe that poeple should die when they are killed and sent back to base no matter what, common PvP sense. No I say in a 1v2 1v3 numbers favors everything. Only to be bypassed by skill luck or certain builds with stealth clones range or many good builds with lots evades invul blocks immunes plus can dish out damage. I do however don't have much problem if I down 1 of 3 and can secure that kill before I dieNumbers does bypass everything, which is why i don't get why they get additional tools in this mechanic as is when they are already favoured.

I feel like you just like getting carried by numbers and your ally pressing F with stab after some thief/mesmer oneshot you lol. Reaper. Never join a party. Never join the squad if I follow zerg always alone carrying myselfAnd you say that in a 1v2 or 1v3 vs opponents of the same skill level of you downstate favours you? Bigger groups have more poeple to res with and more poeple to spam 1 for damage if they get downed. I believe that poeple should die when they are killed and sent back to base no matter what, common PvP sense.

I feel like you just like getting carried by numbers and your ally pressing F with stab after some thief/mesmer oneshot you lol.

My builds main damaging skill literally pierces so i do have cleave, as you saw when i tried to cleave them down but F was faster, and you are saying that downstate wasn't a big factor? So if downstate didn't exist here you say the outcome would still be the same even though i downed the rev 3 times? How is necro supposed to disengage lol. How is it lucky that they have less skill? If you have way less skill you should lose right? No, what I'm saying is they were NOT unskilled enough for you to win or you were not skilled enough to win. Chose which ever you want. It literally gave you options during the fight. That is without getting into the fact that your opponents builds were potentially designed in a way that downstate was a factor for them. For example, an opponent you meet might have more downstate cleave/pressure in his build, which gives him a disadvantage against your build UNTIL you go down. You are harping on and on about what did downstate do for you: what did you do to accommodate downstate in your build? You were well aware it is in the game. You were either counting on 1v1 fights, or not caring. My life blast pierces which is AoE pressure, yet it wasn't enough even with ferocity on every piece of gear i have. What did you mean give me options? So you are saying that these "options" are better than if poeple just died when they are killed? I am asking why you need to be MASSIVELY more skilled, why do we have these mechanics that scale with the side that already has an inherent advantage? I am not asking you how to deal with it, im asking you what balancing decission/logic justifies someone having to deal with it in the first place when they are the smaller group already? Why does the smaller party need to have an even more uphill battle than bigger numbers already provide? You need only be skilled enough above your opponent as much as the difference in builds dictates. In wvw it's:numbersskillbuilds In that order mostly. I summed up where you and your build fell short. Yes, I wonder what those 3 signets on your utility bar could have had on them INSTEAD of those signets. Your gear had pathetic cleave/burst, as evident by the fact that you were neither safe in stomping, nor able to down a player who does nothing but press F on a spot. You do realize different builds are meta, yet they vary in how strong they are against each other? Unless of course your approach to this situation is: uh, meta, this build must be good against everything equally....First, plague signet is a cleanse and stunbreak and all my signets work in shroud, vampiric signet is also a heal skill, i was trying out locust which is another heal over spectral armor. Second, i have pathetic burst how? My burst comes from applying fear and nuking them with dread, all my items have ferocity and i have piercing damage which is cleave. I gain might when i use lifeblast and reach 25 pretty fast if i fear something and i have 221% ferocity too in shroud. Stomping-wise, please tell me the secret of necromancer stability. My point is, when is the last time you saw a core necro? An LB ranger shouldn't lose to a core necro lol, the rev also used hammer so had longrange nukes, both of their builds countered me, yet i downed the rev 3 times but they still deserve to win because the game pushes these carebear mechanics onto poeple? I don't see how the game isn't more balanced without either downstate or rally+combat rezz.

My builds main damaging skill literally pierces so i do have cleave, as you saw when i tried to cleave them down but F was faster, and you are saying that downstate wasn't a big factor? So if downstate didn't exist here you say the outcome would still be the same even though i downed the rev 3 times? How is necro supposed to disengage lol. How is it lucky that they have less skill? If you have way less skill you should lose right? No, what I'm saying is they were NOT unskilled enough for you to win or you were not skilled enough to win. Chose which ever you want. It literally gave you options during the fight. That is without getting into the fact that your opponents builds were potentially designed in a way that downstate was a factor for them. For example, an opponent you meet might have more downstate cleave/pressure in his build, which gives him a disadvantage against your build UNTIL you go down. You are harping on and on about what did downstate do for you: what did you do to accommodate downstate in your build? You were well aware it is in the game. You were either counting on 1v1 fights, or not caring.My life blast pierces which is AoE pressure, yet it wasn't enough even with ferocity on every piece of gear i have. What did you mean give me options? So you are saying that these "options" are better than if poeple just died when they are killed? With downstate the bigger numbers have the advantage because they can utilise it better, no downstate i would have killed them, but they would still have the advantage by having 2 poeple vs 1 because of numbers, whats so hard to understand there? I am asking why you need to be MASSIVELY more skilled, why do we have these mechanics that scale with the side that already has an inherent advantage? I am not asking you how to deal with it, im asking you what balancing decission/logic justifies someone having to deal with it in the first place when they are the smaller group already? Why does the smaller party need to have an even more uphill battle than bigger numbers already provide? Also, what build purposefully includes downstate cleave lol, most builds already either have it in their weapons, ive never seen any good roaming build even talk about it, because you just pick the weapons that are good, for ranger thats LB, GS, axes, sword and warhorn depending on the build for example. Once again, my build did have "cleave" and had ferocity on every piece, extra ferocity and crit chance in shroud too. No downstate doesn't favour anyone on a balancing scale, downstate favours the bigger number. But yes, can you explain to me how LB soulbeast and rev are less meta than core necro?

Heck, if they just remove rally and rezzing while in combat, thats probably enough. That would make downstate just some extra damage while you bleed out while your ally can get you up if the fight ends before you bleed out, this is how downstate literally works in almost every good/popular PvP game that has it, except in most you can't even do damage either. I don't get why this game has nonsensical carebear mechanics that other games don't have, another open world PvP sieging MMO i play has no downstate, if someone reses you they get interrupted by damage and has no BS mounts, a good player can beat multiple, has a long casting time for waypointing so you can't just TP away randomly and everything feels meaningful, unlike this WvW playground. Why are other games like that but this game is like this with constant carebearing with its players supporting it? Any PvP community would see ktraining as a joke in any game, poeple don't go and play these kinds of modes to do PvE, except in Gw2.

Precisely because, the more targets that stack for a Rez, the more targets become susceptible to cleave damage because they have to bunch together. Like I said earlier, this is what makes 1v8’s on reaper possible, which I have repeatedly been successful at accomplishing. The same applies in the opposing direction. The more players I have that can cleave enemy downstates the more advantageous it is for my numbers to dominate theirs...especially when they ball up for a resurrection. This assumes that everyone is just going to stand there to eat your AoE so the "given equal skill" part doesn't apply here, even having a down that doesn't get rezzed but keeps attacking you is an advantage in pure damage. You tell me that "the more cleave i have the better i can deal with it", but downstate not being there at all would mean those players would just die. If they are as smart as you are, it benefits them more, why do poeple think outskilling it even though it is unfair means it is balanced? Lets say you have 2 GvG guilds, 1 has 6 poeple and the other 10, they are of equal skill, whom is benefited by downstate more? Benefit is a strong word. More players to Rez also means more potential targets that can receive cleaving damage that result in more deaths. The argument that it benefits the side with more people is subjective and superficial at best. So given equal skill you say that the larger group can't capitalise on it more? I agree with Justice, the 'benefit' seems mostly superficial in terms of numbers. Downstate is a double edged sword; depending on the situation it can have just as many 'drawbacks' as it does 'benifits'. Like I said, it's an element that adds depth to the combat system and opens the door for some exciting fights. That depends on playerskill, not the mechanic itself or balance. Exaclty. Downstate is the common denominator - it's universal to every player. It's not a matter of being unbalanced because, everyone has it. The mechanic is not unfair - the situation you were in was (1V2)Downstate makes outnumbered situations extra unfair because they can utilise it better, if not for downstate i would have won, same if this happens in a 2v4, or a 3v5. Everyone has it isn't an argument when larger groups have more of it and more rezzes for it, it scales by numbers so why do we need to have such a mechanic that scales by numbers given equal skill? If you can't F while in combat for example then it would be no problem, but the way downstate is atm with rezzing in combat and rally means it will always benefit numbers given equal skill.

My builds main damaging skill literally pierces so i do have cleave, as you saw when i tried to cleave them down but F was faster, and you are saying that downstate wasn't a big factor? So if downstate didn't exist here you say the outcome would still be the same even though i downed the rev 3 times? How is necro supposed to disengage lol. How is it lucky that they have less skill? If you have way less skill you should lose right? What did downstate for me here?

Precisely because, the more targets that stack for a Rez, the more targets become susceptible to cleave damage because they have to bunch together. Like I said earlier, this is what makes 1v8’s on reaper possible, which I have repeatedly been successful at accomplishing. The same applies in the opposing direction. The more players I have that can cleave enemy downstates the more advantageous it is for my numbers to dominate theirs...especially when they ball up for a resurrection. This assumes that everyone is just going to stand there to eat your AoE so the "given equal skill" part doesn't apply here, even having a down that doesn't get rezzed but keeps attacking you is an advantage in pure damage. You tell me that "the more cleave i have the better i can deal with it", but downstate not being there at all would mean those players would just die. If they are as smart as you are, it benefits them more, why do poeple think outskilling it even though it is unfair means it is balanced? Lets say you have 2 GvG guilds, 1 has 6 poeple and the other 10, they are of equal skill, whom is benefited by downstate more? Benefit is a strong word. More players to Rez also means more potential targets that can receive cleaving damage that result in more deaths. The argument that it benefits the side with more people is subjective and superficial at best. So given equal skill you say that the larger group can't capitalise on it more? I agree with Justice, the 'benefit' seems mostly superficial in terms of numbers. Downstate is a double edged sword; depending on the situation it can have just as many 'drawbacks' as it does 'benifits'. Like I said, it's an element that adds depth to the combat system and opens the door for some exciting fights. That depends on playerskill, not the mechanic itself or balance.

Yes, that's right. If you want to win against superior numbers then you must be better than your opponents. That is true whether downstate exists or not. Numbers are an advantage any way you slice it. You asked for ANY scenario where downstate favors the outnumbered party. Well, there you go. If you are better than they are and have at least one friend present, then you have a chance to capitalize on downstate mechanics to win a fight that you otherwise would have lost without downstate mechanics. Anyway, you obviously have no interest in even considering anything anyone else has to say. So, good luck with those demands. You sound like you really believe in this cause. Except that they can utilise downstate even more in said scenario. Downstate still inherently benefits the larger group, no matter how skilled the smaller group is the larger group has the inherent advantage, skill has nothing to do with the situation but with the players. I am talking from a balancing-viewpoint, all you say is "just be better than them", balancing is done given equal skill. What helped you wasn't downstate, but your skill, we are talking about downstate as a mechanic given equal skill. If a newbie plays against a grandmaster in chess but the newbie gets 2 queens, then the newbie has the advantage and the game isn't balanced as it isn't about pure skill anymore, i don't see how it is ever fair, if the group wins because they are better then they should have won anyways no matter what. "If you are outskilling them so much that the kitten doesn't matter then it doesn't matter, doesn't change the fact its kitten buuuuuuuuut" Condi mesmer is also bad when a freshly boosted player without gear plays it so that must mean it is balanced. that was entertaining and well played on all opponents alike. To be honest, as much i've been against downstate....i've now reconsider it as being a fair system. It is not fair to the opponent attempting to finish the kill but it is fair in giving the other opponent a fair chance to fight back, Afterall, that is what healthy competition is; giving other opponent(s) a fair chance to fight back. Not giving opponent(s) a Toxic design mechanic, skills that will guarantee a secure kill no matter what; like Toxic Bad Design Thief Profession, Toxic Stealth mechanic for all professions, Toxic +1 shooting skills Alhought the Ranger Profession player was heavily focused on making the kill, there were no evidence of downstate being Toxic in the video so in conclusion; i give downsate a +1 Downstate is not Toxic after all The opponents have a chance to fight back, you know, in the actual fight, downstate is just a second chance that purely scales with numbers and rewards you for dying if you have numbers. How can you not see that a mechanic that gives my opponents massive advantages while it gives me nothing in that situation is toxic af? It literally gives them an unfair chance to fight back, as it always benefits the larger group that already has inherent advantage. Hold on ... even if it's not fine, that's not a reason to remove it. It's got nothing to do with someone satisfying your requirements for scenarios. I mean, I think it's pretty clear that even if there isn't a benefit to smaller groups ... that doesn't mean it should be removed. That doesn't even make sense. Your approach is that you think you are right because no one can come up with a reason why your specific request is wrong? That's some kind of special right there. What I said was there isn't a reason you have presented to remove downstate that isn't better than the reason that put it in the game; and that reason is because Anet wants it (and personally, I can see why it's there in WvW/PvP and so to have other people in this thread that you continue to ignore with you nonsense request to prove some scenario wrong). That should give you NO reason to conclude I think it's fine, so you aren't asking me relevant questions in the first place. Ok, i am convinced you understand nothing about competitive balance, WvW will be the next esport and this game will have 20 million players i get it. You justify everything with "just because", give me any successful competitive PvP game which balances with the philosophy "just because", because those all die. Do you genuinly think WvW is a good competitive mode as is? Downstate doesn't benefit the larger group. Last night I was fighting a larger group and the fact there were more of them to downstate then finish meant my allies got to rally 2 or even 3 times instead of just once. There. I have countered your empty hollow anecdotal evidence with my own. Case Closed. Pack it up. If the larger group had equal skill as your smaller group they would have still won. Being massively better than your opponent doesn't make a mechanic more balanced, can you tell me how you downed way more of them than they downed yours when their group was bigger? If the answer is that your group was more skilled then your argument fails as balance is done given equal skill in competitive games. I present situations given equal skill, how can you talk about anecdotes when you just give one? Like seriously, "downstate is good if you face rallybots" lmao. Condi mesmer is also bad when a freshly boosted player without gear plays it so that must mean it is balanced. Seriously, how come that everything thats common sense in any PvP game community is being heavilly rejected here? Why do i feel like its all the ktrainers?WvW feels like a playground, not a competitive mode, and some poeple heavilly defend it as they want it to be that. Many of the things defended by casuals would sound nonsensical to any PvP community of any popular competitive PvP game, but are praised here. I never have a hard timer argueing balance in games i play, most poeple are quite agreeable too normally, except in this game ofcoarse where everything is upside down and nonsensical. Can’t remember who said this...maybe Sherlock Holmes...idk —-If you are at a large gala hall looking for the sucker in the room, and if you can’t find the sucker in less than minute, then you are the sucker. People that want to get rid of downstate are the suckers in the room. I didn’t watch the video, but I (usto) main a reaper roamer, and a big reason why I was able to win many outnumbered fights (sometimes going as high as 1v8) is because I was able to cleave my downstate opponents to lure in resurrectors who underestimate my ability to cleave and overestimate their ability to Rez If it wasn’t for the downstate mechanic, there would be plenty times where that wouldn’t have been possible. So ya, if you have an issue with opposing downstate, you need to look into your build or play style and adjust to it, because your WvW build should be built on the premise that you WILL find yourself in outnumbered situations. You haven't really provided an argument on why the mechanic is balanced and scales fairly by numbers here. I tried locust this time but normally use spectral armor, thats 2 stunbreaks. Again like others you haven't really provided an argument on why the mechanic is balanced and scales fairly by numbers here. I mean you are basically saying exactly why it is unbalanced and unfair here lol, why do we need such inherently unfair mechanics in the game? Benefit is a strong word. More players to Rez also means more potential targets that can receive cleaving damage that result in more deaths. The argument that it benefits the side with more people is subjective and superficial at best. So given equal skill you say that the larger group can't capitalise on it more?

These are some damage per second numbers I calculated a while back; Condition Mirage Pistol 4 in to Staff 3 Clones Ambush Spam: 2465Fire Weaver Lava Skin Into Fire Attunement Glyph of Elemental Power and Primordial Stance: 3279 vs Photon Forge Corona Burst Might stack into quickness autos: 4468Ranger Quickening Zephyr into Maul into greatsword autos with Rock Gazelle: 4452Sic Em Soulbeast Merged Quickening Zephyr Rapid Fire into autos: 5232Reaper's Shroud Reaper's Onslaught Autos: 4436Reaper's Shroud Soul Spiral into Autos: 5822Herald Phase Traversal into Sword 4+5 then Auto Attacks: 5882Herald Phase Traversal into Auto Attacks with Impossible Odds: 6576Core SA Thief Assassin Signet into Backstab+Steal into Auto Attacks: 8612Daredevil Pistol Whip Spam with Lesser Haste Proc: 4361Deadeye Binding Shadows into Mark into Three Round Burst Spam: 7162Warrior Bull's Charge into Frenzy Arcing Slice then Hundred Blades then Whirlwind Attack Right Before the knockdown ends: 7714 Power damage has significantly higher burst than condition builds, literally anywhere between 33% higher to over 250% higher burst DPS. Even when comparing the burstiest condition classes using their burst combos. These numbers are all based on meta builds with realistic stats that you'd find from Gods of PvP or MetaBattle. Basically, a condition mirage might kill you in 6.5 seconds if you stand still eat every attack and don't cleanse. Multiple power builds can kill you in under 2 seconds. The idea that any condition build is bursting you faster than any power build is literally just in your head and does not play out when damage numbers are properly calculated. Jokes aside, whenever i face a condi mirage in full trailblazer, as i mainly play WvW, the conditions never end no matter how much i cleanse, i can have permanently pulsing cleanse with antitoxin runes and it still doesn't end and you can die in 3 seconds to a build with 3,500 armor if you have a regular amount of cleanse, the conditions never, ever stop unlike other builds which run out of resources or have to use cd's. And if you tell me ThIs Is ThE pVp FoRuM, i just wanted to make a joke lol, as mirage has never felt not ridiculous imo.

I mean all yur answers can be easily answered with :It has little or no counterplay and is an extremely degenerative playstyle. In fact I'll go abit further to say "Burst" playstyle is also very degenerative playstyle, which may be why all skills are being nerfed in PvP and WvW settings to make TTK higher. Somethings aren't even "what is being done well" either. Take Power Scourge for example.Scourge was never designed to be a power DPS, and it doesn't actually do this "well" either"It's still being widely played in WvW as the core DPS of Zergs due to alot of stuff Necro can already do (Like Staff mark stack spam) and combining it with wide, long ranged corruption.If say, Renegade could provide extreme boon corruption from 1200 range, I'll bet Scourge will be slowly phased out due to how much teamplay potential Renegade has over Scourge. Yur free to believe that there is no such thing as unfun/fun, but fact remains there are certain aspects of each profession which are inherently unhealthy to put in a competitive environment where all players desire "fairer" fights on even grounds, which calls again for balances every now and then. Now what I don't understand is how Anet goes about their balances because sometimes they just break builds entirely and refuse to rollback on their reworks. Little to no counterplay how? Also, degenerative playstyle means nothing as that is once again completely subjective. Ever played Engineer with pulsing reveal and just whop them down in 2 hits? What is wrong about burst? I can only think of 2 annoying burst builds atm that are hard to avoid, being power DE and mesmer, one of which is a onetrick pony that folds to any decent build with some defenses and another which burst can be evaded a bit eassier. Scourge has good raw performance, thats what its about, it does enough things to fill its job and do well. I wasn't talking about a specific thing, just doing well as a meta build. Howeso are they inherently unhealthy if they aren't overperforming? Also, if players want these fair fights then why is literally everyone in the downstate thread i made going against common PvP balance sense argueing that it is fair that bigger numbers should have an extra crutch advantage in addition to being inherently advantaged due to having bigger numbers. Why does almost everyone i see in WvW just want to roll poeple over while running away as fast as they can from fair balanced fights? Often comming back with 4 poeple extra and then jump on your corpse, or blobs not fighting but going to ktrain somewhere else? WvW feels like a playground, not a competitive mode, and poeple heavilly defend it as they want it to be that. Warclaws, waypointing instantly from anywhere, downstate as is, rally, defense on walls, all these things would sound nonsensical to any PvP community of any popular competitive PvP game, but are praised here.

Because there is no easy way to accurately measure skill when a bulk of this skill is used to perfect fundamentally flawed design. Is Stealth Spam good design? Nope.Can a player be skilled in abusing stealth? Yes. Is Bunker Condi Weaver good design? Nope.Can a player be skilled enough to rotate their cooldowns properly and become extremely hard to kill while dealing so much Burn damage? Yes. Is CC lock down good design? Nope.Can a player be skilled enough and knowledgable enough to find opportunities to apply their CC chain when they know the opponent has no answer for it? Yes. Skill is subjective in Gw2 imo, because there are just so much things to talk about in a direct 1v1. That's why there are cases where people say "Oh it's just a really skilled Profession X" not "Oh it's just a skilled player" because not all Professions are created equal. What is bad about stealth? Bunker weaver is fine? Fire weaver is overtuned, but not bad design. Why is CC lock inherently flawed design, once again? It is all abouth how well it does something, not what it does. This sounds like when poeple in TCG's call control decks bad because they are "not fun" even though they are balanced. I don't believe in things like unfun/fun etc, just balance based on raw performance.

Àny build can be tanky by slotting in tanky gear, the build isn't tanky at all inherently, i use tanky gear.] Why? Are they even top tier compared to mirages, soulbeasts, core warriors etc? Most poeple play onetrick pony builds that only kills poeple with bad glass builds. If it was so absurd you'd see more of them, yet 95% of DE i see are power. It's not like it's a common build, but it's not like DE are that common either. Not to mention 95% of people playing DE have no clue what they're doing and go for the one shot burst because they watched a video on YouTube, appealing to the masses isn't really a sound argument here. Having P/D malicious sneak attacks capable of getting 5k+ ticks in less than a second that last for 12s+ that also heal you for 2k per go and can be spammed pretty consistently off the reveal timer while also having 3k armor, close to permastealth if needed and a 1500 range condi poke with mark/spotters shot is kinda ridiculous if you know how to play it. It's my preferred 1vX build for a reason, and frankly I'm fine with it getting nerfed as it's not really fun to play against, it's just absurdly effective, hence the comparison to condi mirage. If the build isn't good enough to be meta, and DE is so uncommon, then why is 90% of bitching on here about DE? Condi mirage is infinitely better, this build folds to poeple that have any amount of small cleanses, try to kill a weaver with it. I don't get this games community where everything on the opinion of competitive balance is upside down, why don't we balance straight going off performance and advantages given equal skill?

Àny build can be tanky by slotting in tanky gear, the build isn't tanky at all inherently, i use tanky gear.] The build I'm talking about is the poison stacking condi stealth DE that builds toughness. That thing should be buried and never spoken about again. Yes, what about it? Is it meta? I play it and i never see anyone else play it, meanwhile we have many better roaming builds that are way less niche. Doesnt matter if its meta or not. Cancer is cancer and should be removed.And why is it "cancer"? Who decides that? You? Balancing should be done purely by performance.