Twilight Tempest.7584

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/577610131... Top teams running mesmers while no Top team running the legendary double bird uber killer ranger build which apparently can down anything by simply looking at them.....do you see what I see?...DO YOU SEE WHAT I SEE?....Top teams playing mesmers while fanboys cry over their loss of condi mirage...oh sorry..It's called normalization of the spec from OP status...I will be waiting of your videos of Top team running the legendary double bird build dealing 30-40k dmg like the open arena screenshots Were they portal bots?

I can be sure you don't play mesmer.It's no exaggeration to say that the current mesmer has been removed from the game. Mirage is still strong. It has a lot of damage and great survivability. That is true for 5v5 and for 2v2. Misha plays mirage and he is rank 3 or so on the 2v2 leaderboard. It is mmore a learn to play issue than an issue with the class. Misha will be here whatever he play. (And there is hudge teamplay combo in his match.)Where is the second mesmer after him ? My point was that it isnt the class that restricts you. Misha can play it at very high level in both 5v5 and 2v2. Therefore unless misha is some superhuman immortal being, people qqing here could become decent with mirage aswell if theyd just try. Mirage had a lot of get-out-of jail free cards. Now they are gone and you actually have to be able to play the game to be good. Deal with it.^Seems they backpedaled a fair bit from here after the @"bravan.3876" exchange. ^^ Luzifer, please provide evidence of you or anyone playing any sort of Mirage successfully at a consistent competitive level, apart from one or two top players in the game who would undoubtedly do well playing almost any build. Feel free to list the many current top ranked Mirage players you mentioned. Short of that, any assertion that Mirage is perfectly fine and "qq'ers" just need to gitgud, is but unsubstantiated opinion.

90% of the balancing threads are dunning-kruger effect threads. The infuse light thread (top in the pvp section currently) is also a good example for it. It is so easy to counter and there are still players that are overchallenged with it and blame it being responsible for the performance of a build they can not kill. Lich Form: a bunker necro entering lich form will get a hardforcus from me and others and will have to leave it again after 2 seconds because he would die otherwise. Maybe you're speaking from a WvW perspective, but in Conquest, it's a lot less about killing and a lot more about point control. Which is exactly where bunker necros shine.

At least half the mesmer votes are by mes mains. :lol: On a serious note, the poll actually seems fairly on target right now: Necro 25%, Rev 23%, Guard 19%. Yeah the easy second life bar is kind of annoying in this reduced damage meta. It's simply boring watching necros pop shroud just as their HP dwindles and effectively reset the fight without ever having to leave the node. It's just eye roll at this point and needs to be toned down. By all means give them some active defenses in exchange for overabundant passives. Make it a little less AFK-able please.

is that a burning DH? Yep.

Back on topic...

Mesmers are still too pink and purple. Emergency nerfs now.

It was basically a string started by the Rev main above. A few of us responded and it all got removed, probably for quoting the offending post.

I came here to say the same. Mesmer not even on the list. Then again, I guess that isn't surprising.

supporters? what supporters? moral support? we cheerleaders now or wat?have i missed some supporting buffs? support for many things ofc ^^ Like boons, invis ,save stomps etcYe, mesmer became firebrand and sucked up thief smoke blasting in the process.its still strong. There is only the typical "i cant win, buff my class" scenario.With such dumb logic we can delete 90% of class mechanics and add there 10 minutes cooldown(continuumsplitlol) and be like "dont whine because its harder to play now, its just no more easy facerolling and still strong (against terribad players), if you would complain then its another I CANT WIN BUFF ME". well it is like it is. Its still very strong, if not one of the strongest classes. And still people complain cuz they cant play without an second burst-immunity-clonebuffYou should uninstall and free us from the "wisdom" you spitting here, dying to mirage should autouninstall your game. im just gonna leave here.If u cant play mirage, u are just unable to think, read and adapt. watch that, go back to mirage and stop whining in the forums for being lazyIf Vallun rerolls Mirage next 5v5 season and does well, that will go a lot further to changing minds. Same goes for anyone, yourself included. The proof is in the pudding.

I also think FB, Necro, and Ele (still) need attention. Compared to the rest of the roster, they're just way too safe to play while doing decent damage. It's like low-effort mode. No offense to mains of those classes.

@"Psycoprophet.8107", I'm sad to see you worked up about mes. You're usually kind of sympathetic to Mesmers since they share the same special place of misunderstanding and scorn among the community as thieves. No one likes to get bursted down, but the build you're taking about isn't new and is now at its weakest yet. It's also not the only "one-shot"/spike damage build running around. But it does seem more common lately because it's one of few remaining mes builds following the patch, and it maybe counters the new tanky meta. It's also widely known that thief is Mesmer's biggest counter. It's almost comical how helpless mes is against an equally skilled thief. Like might as well surrender. Anyway, sorry to hear you had a rough experience. But I don't think it was due to lack of counterplay. Please don't become a part of the community I mentioned above. Please. EDIT: Didn't see your last two posts. If you've been trolling all this time, it's kind of weird. If that's the case, disregard what I wrote.

is this any different the ranger bursting you with pet, condi thief applying 10 stacks of poison etc etc? no? move along Yeah cuz being insta burst for 7k from a downed mesmer is like thief's downstate poking with its poison lmao even rangers isnt that broken. Yes rangers revive is broken but their downstate burst even with pet isnt that broken. Its fine tho I'm sure itl get nerfed with rest of downstates :) but yup moving on. diut, ranger pet can legit hit bigger numbers with autoattacks And that makes it ok? I've never had a ranger pet even pre patch burst me instantly for 7k, if they did I'd be saying the same as it ridiculous. No class should be bursting another for 7k while being in downstate, that's crazy broken no matter what class is doing it. its like complaining about handgun while everyone is running aroud with rifles.and your argument is that guns are bad, read what the skill does look how it works. after quick google and a little bit of brain power you will realize how to counter it.there is no hope for mesmer, if people start complaining even about kitten downstate phantasm lol Umm I disagree. I'm talking about bursts while being in downstate and that alone. Don't start mentioning what everything every class can do that's op to compare lol I'm just mention something that's overperforming and not listing off everything that is so.Like I said regardless of class no class or spec should be in downstate and be able to insta burst another to downstate when their at half hp regardless of any situation. Again with damage nerfs but zero downstate nerfing it is broken. learn to play.first thing you should do after you got hit for 7k with the ability should be googling what it does.https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Phantasmal_RogueI googled it for you since you seem to be too lazy.3 things for you my man since you are the whiny type not the thinking type.1 it deals more dmg towards the back, if you cant dodge stare towards it to take 20% less damage and have it go on longer cooldown.2 half a sec cast time + phantasm delay means you have 1s of a tell, easy to dodge.3 it can not be used instantly, its on cooldown from the start like other classes skills, meaning you have time to LoS,get endurance for a dodge or simply wait on an elevation and drop down when you see the phantasm. I was standing there shooting it with sb and all the sudden clones rushed and exploded me for 7k, I didnt do anything grand defensively because I knew I was still half hp, it insta burst me to downstate. I assumed half my hp was enough to keep pinging the downed mesmer. I'm not arguing with u anymore because u always turn toxic and ignorant and are so bias towards mesmer u will never admit something on it is broken. Are u a child? Regardless of class no class should be able to burst another for anything close to 7k while their in downstate, can u not read? Thats broken no matter who is doing it. Anyway u can reply ur usual nonsense all u want I will not be wasting time replying I feel like something is missing from this story tbh. Not saying it can't, but Phantasmal Rogue hitting 7K backstab on a medium armor target seems.. unlikely? I honestly don't know. If someone better at crunching the numbers says it's possible, I'll believe it. "all the sudden clones rushed and exploded me for 7k" --> sounds like you were hit by a shatter? Maybe your opponent ordered a shatter before going downed, and the lovely AI pathfinding caused a delayed shatter? Then the PR finished you off? I did something similar to a DE in 1v1 recently. My Phantasmal Mage with its S+ timing and targeting (/s) downed the DE right after I was downed. This put him in downstate with a long burn stack and some confusion, which he was making worse by using his downstate 1 ability on me. Then I rallied after my PR finished him. Point is, maybe you were downed by more than just PR? nah, phantasms hit high numbers due to them using thier own weapon numbers that are twice as high if not more of other weapons.so even tho it has 1.15 coof its actually 2.3+ and bonus from back hit pushes it to almost 3.0 coof. almost as much as pet autoattack.I have seen up to 15k rogues before the patch.And now its propably even possible to hit bigger numbers if you get might and oponent still somehow has 20+ vunl stacks.mostly its just 2-8k hitsOk. I was watching my PR extra carefully today because of this discussion and I wasn't seeing higher than 2K-ish backstabs. Maybe I got a dud. :pensive: is this any different the ranger bursting you with pet, condi thief applying 10 stacks of poison etc etc? no? move along Yeah cuz being insta burst for 7k from a downed mesmer is like thief's downstate poking with its poison lmao even rangers isnt that broken. Yes rangers revive is broken but their downstate burst even with pet isnt that broken. Its fine tho I'm sure itl get nerfed with rest of downstates :) but yup moving on. diut, ranger pet can legit hit bigger numbers with autoattacks And that makes it ok? I've never had a ranger pet even pre patch burst me instantly for 7k, if they did I'd be saying the same as it ridiculous. No class should be bursting another for 7k while being in downstate, that's crazy broken no matter what class is doing it. its like complaining about handgun while everyone is running aroud with rifles.and your argument is that guns are bad, read what the skill does look how it works. after quick google and a little bit of brain power you will realize how to counter it.there is no hope for mesmer, if people start complaining even about kitten downstate phantasm lol Umm I disagree. I'm talking about bursts while being in downstate and that alone. Don't start mentioning what everything every class can do that's op to compare lol I'm just mention something that's overperforming and not listing off everything that is so.Like I said regardless of class no class or spec should be in downstate and be able to insta burst another to downstate when their at half hp regardless of any situation. Again with damage nerfs but zero downstate nerfing it is broken. learn to play.first thing you should do after you got hit for 7k with the ability should be googling what it does.https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Phantasmal_RogueI googled it for you since you seem to be too lazy.3 things for you my man since you are the whiny type not the thinking type.1 it deals more dmg towards the back, if you cant dodge stare towards it to take 20% less damage and have it go on longer cooldown.2 half a sec cast time + phantasm delay means you have 1s of a tell, easy to dodge.3 it can not be used instantly, its on cooldown from the start like other classes skills, meaning you have time to LoS,get endurance for a dodge or simply wait on an elevation and drop down when you see the phantasm. I was standing there shooting it with sb and all the sudden clones rushed and exploded me for 7k, I didnt do anything grand defensively because I knew I was still half hp, it insta burst me to downstate. I assumed half my hp was enough to keep pinging the downed mesmer. I'm not arguing with u anymore because u always turn toxic and ignorant and are so bias towards mesmer u will never admit something on it is broken. Are u a child? Regardless of class no class should be able to burst another for anything close to 7k while their in downstate, can u not read? Thats broken no matter who is doing it. Anyway u can reply ur usual nonsense all u want I will not be wasting time replying So you stood still, and let clone kitten you over. and isntead blaming yourself for doing something stupid you go onto the forums to complain.clap clap clap clap clap Replace "clone" with "pet" and you just described yourself. pet doesnt vanish after it misses :D Do u guys know how to play mirage? I'm just asking cuz I literally played two games in a row where a gs mirage was insta burting my 16k+ hp in literally a sec and all while from stealth. Not only does mesmer not need any buffs it actually needs its bursts severely lowered. U guys whining that it has no damage leads me to believe u dont know ur class because both these mesmers were doing easy 14k bursts from stealth and ur whining about pets or rangers 5k+ bursts in other threads lmao u guys are ridiculous and have zero right asking for nerfs on any classes when urs needs heavier nerfs :)I don't play GS-burst or anything with more stealth than Torch 4, so I promise it wasn't me. ^^ Isn't that build a glass cannon that dies as easily as it kills, especially after baiting its only dodge? The core mes version is probably better.

is this any different the ranger bursting you with pet, condi thief applying 10 stacks of poison etc etc? no? move along Yeah cuz being insta burst for 7k from a downed mesmer is like thief's downstate poking with its poison lmao even rangers isnt that broken. Yes rangers revive is broken but their downstate burst even with pet isnt that broken. Its fine tho I'm sure itl get nerfed with rest of downstates :) but yup moving on. diut, ranger pet can legit hit bigger numbers with autoattacks And that makes it ok? I've never had a ranger pet even pre patch burst me instantly for 7k, if they did I'd be saying the same as it ridiculous. No class should be bursting another for 7k while being in downstate, that's crazy broken no matter what class is doing it. its like complaining about handgun while everyone is running aroud with rifles.and your argument is that guns are bad, read what the skill does look how it works. after quick google and a little bit of brain power you will realize how to counter it.there is no hope for mesmer, if people start complaining even about kitten downstate phantasm lol Umm I disagree. I'm talking about bursts while being in downstate and that alone. Don't start mentioning what everything every class can do that's op to compare lol I'm just mention something that's overperforming and not listing off everything that is so.Like I said regardless of class no class or spec should be in downstate and be able to insta burst another to downstate when their at half hp regardless of any situation. Again with damage nerfs but zero downstate nerfing it is broken. learn to play.first thing you should do after you got hit for 7k with the ability should be googling what it does.https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Phantasmal_RogueI googled it for you since you seem to be too lazy.3 things for you my man since you are the whiny type not the thinking type.1 it deals more dmg towards the back, if you cant dodge stare towards it to take 20% less damage and have it go on longer cooldown.2 half a sec cast time + phantasm delay means you have 1s of a tell, easy to dodge.3 it can not be used instantly, its on cooldown from the start like other classes skills, meaning you have time to LoS,get endurance for a dodge or simply wait on an elevation and drop down when you see the phantasm. I was standing there shooting it with sb and all the sudden clones rushed and exploded me for 7k, I didnt do anything grand defensively because I knew I was still half hp, it insta burst me to downstate. I assumed half my hp was enough to keep pinging the downed mesmer. I'm not arguing with u anymore because u always turn toxic and ignorant and are so bias towards mesmer u will never admit something on it is broken. Are u a child? Regardless of class no class should be able to burst another for anything close to 7k while their in downstate, can u not read? Thats broken no matter who is doing it. Anyway u can reply ur usual nonsense all u want I will not be wasting time replyingI feel like something is missing from this story tbh. Not saying it can't, but Phantasmal Rogue hitting 7K backstab on a medium armor target seems.. unlikely? I honestly don't know. If someone better at crunching the numbers says it's possible, I'll believe it. "all the sudden clones rushed and exploded me for 7k" --> sounds like you were hit by a shatter? Maybe your opponent ordered a shatter before going downed, and the lovely AI pathfinding caused a delayed shatter? Then the PR finished you off? I did something similar to a DE in 1v1 recently. My Phantasmal Mage with its S+ timing and targeting (/s) downed the DE right after I was downed. This put him in downstate with a long burn stack and some confusion, which he was making worse by using his downstate 1 ability on me. Then I rallied after my PR finished him. Point is, maybe you were downed by more than just PR?

@"Ithilwen.1529" makes a good point that deleting or moving condi clone damage to the Mirage player's Ambush leaves core Mesmer and Chrono with one less build option. Seems like a possible place for an Anet Trade-off™. Clone damage can be higher on core Mes, but virtually zero on Mirage. EDIT: Of course, they should reverse not-so-good "trade-offs" like one-dodge Mirage while they're at it.

If one wanted to farm upvotes on this forum, it'd be as simple as making false or misleading, yet popular comments like these: Myth: "Mesmer has evades, invulns, blocks, and stealths for days." Truth: Mesmer already had less evade up-time than most of the roster pre-patch thanks to vigor nerfs, and now has the least post-patch. I think Tayga said 6 of 8 professions had more evade up-time pre-patch. Now it's 8 of 8. Myth: "Mesmer has too much clone spam and condi spam." Truth: This may have been true for much of Mirage's existence, but definitely became less so over the last two years as Mirage was one of the first e-specs to begin seeing big nerfs with every balance patch, with casual 50%+ nerfs to damage, increases to cool downs, etc. Before the February 25th patch, its condi application was at a reasonable level within the meta, even if its potential for passive play wasn't the best design. Myth: "Aww, poor mes mains carried by their OP class all these years finally have to play a non-broken class now. One-dodge Mirage is fine." Truth: Condi-mirage in particular was without a doubt overtuned for some time following PoF, but so too was just about every other PoF elite spec, some arguably still to this day. There were completely busted builds for each of these and most of them stuck around at least as long, if not longer than OP c-Mirage because again, Mirage was one of the first to see regular nerfs. Things like Firebrand/Scourge dominance, Rampage, Boonbeast, and Yolosmith plagued Conquest and carried players just as much, if not longer, yet were complained about far less. Only now with Chrono and Mirage completely benched have the complaints largely moved on to new targets. Being limited to a one-dodge endurance bar in a game that was universally designed around having two is absolutely not okay in terms of strategic endurance-budgeting, combat rhythm, and consistency between game modes. It also completely guts a class that is designed to do more with dodges, than simply evade attacks. -- If nothing else, Mesmer, especially Mirage, is probably the most widely misunderstood and falsely accused class--to this day. Just last night in HotM, after returning from a match, I saw someone saying in map chat how they were "perma CC'd and walked all over by a mesmer wielding just a sword and shield," and how "whatever buffs Anet gave mesmer are insane." People responded that they weren't aware Chrono was back from the dead. They asked what "buffs" Mesmer received and got no response. The person later mentioned they'd been gone from the game for some months and had just returned. /facepalm These kinds of views are rampant throughout the community and seem very slow to change, even when reality has left them far beyond. I think this is why short of a complete redesign, Mesmer will always see an undue amount of hate. It will remain tolerated at best, but never really accepted.

I'm not sure what Death Breakdowns capture. I think OP said it was 3 autos that hit twice each. I'm going to assume he wasn't just standing there eating 3 bird autos. Could it have been 3 more or less random autos during the moments leading up to death? Maybe while CC'd or during downstate? The point being that these are pet autos hitting that hard. Just wondering. Imagine having two dodges. :\

Great post! This community could definitely benefit from expert wisdom. Without condescension, judgment, and finger-pointing. Just as importantly, nobody knows everything. We should all approach discussions open to learning something. Leave prejudices, biases, and agendas at the door.

That is how Condimirage works since PoF release, so you Mesmer mains should be happy and not crying that Anet finally closed the gap in skill cap between Condimirage and Powermirage (they closed it in the wrong direction, means instead making Condimirage harder to play they made Powermirage easier, but who cares) xD.Skill ceiling reduced heavily for the costs of a little bit higher skill floor (it is harder to survive, nothing Powermirage was that good at pre patch already but who cares). You guys should be thankful, Powermirage overall is easier to play now at least at maximum potential. Just dodge brain off. Welcome to casual GW2. I know you know this, as does most everyone who's commented here so far. But in case those with... anti-mes agendas arrive: I think it's better not to throw around the word "easier" as that can be misconstrued as "improved" or "buffed". Easier is not equivalent to more effective. In fact, it is definitely harder for most people to play Mirage effectively now, due to the increased skill floor. "Dumbed-down" is probably more fitting. It's "easier" to reach the lowered skill ceiling/maximum potential if only because there's less to work with. Painting a picture with only two available colors is "easier" than with three. But that doesn't mean the result is a better painting.

Unlike power/direct damage, condi not only has to land in the first place, it also has to tick for full effect, and can be completely removed. Meaning condi-builds need some sustain to ever see their damage through. Sure, power builds are concerned with power, precision, and ferocity stats, but they have the advantage of instant damage application, making sustain inherently less important. This is often forgotten when only looking at amulet stats on the surface. Except for condi-burst, which shouldn't really be a thing, condi-builds should generally have more sustain than power builds due to the nature and rate of their damage application. Something to keep in mind when discussing the power-condi balance.

Core mes is actually one of the stronger variants now, compared to chrono and Mirage. Burst power Mes still exists and while its burst isnt as instant as before, it can still delete a full hp bar. They are just as brittle as before though, so with decent play you can beat them. He's right. Core mes may be in better shape than its gutted e-specs, but is that really saying much?

There was a discussion shortly after the patch released lamenting Soulbeast as "hamstrung" due to removing pet swap during combat. While I understand the sentiment, I think the term "hamstrung" more appropriately fits the removal of half of Mirage's endurance bar. Everything about Mirage revolves around Mirage Cloak. Everything. Offense and defense alike. Every single on-dodge trait and their synergies. Clone generation. Chopping MC up-time in half (actually more due to the need to bank) affects all the mechanics that stem from it and build upon it. If ever there was an example of ripping the heart out of a spec design, this is it. I tried. I don't claim to be the best player, but I tried a few different build variations over about 15 matches post-patch and it just isn't happening. When supposedly the best mesmer player in the game, with a God of PvP title duoing with another God of PvP is struggling to be effective, there is definitely something wrong. Very wrong. "This one build is sort of still playable" or "a handful of very gifted players still make it work" is not the standard that should be applied to ANY spec. Do people even hear themselves when they say such things? I hate to be all doom and gloom. I hoped and tried for something to work. But at this point, unless they revert the endurance nerf, I think it's truly time to reinvent the spec completely. Because right now it's a hot mess.

For sure. Both classes may never escape their reputations for "toxic" design elements (to borrow a popular term on this forum) unless completely redesigned from the ground up. Even if objectively underpowered and underrepresented.

I was always an axe Mirage at heart, as recently as two seasons ago, well after the meta had abandoned it. It was high-risk, potentially moderate-reward pre-patch. Its damage potential and evade frames might serve better now that global damage is down and we're short a dodge. Unfortunately, nerfs, design, and bugs make it pretty clunky at times. Axe 2 is a vulnerable animation lock that we can't afford to partially cover with MC freely anymore. The ambush was nerfed to require facing opponents when casting. The axes themselves are projectiles weak to projectile hate, and get split among opponents and AIs if in range. The delayed axe strikes will reveal you so you should take care not to enter stealth before they've dissipated. Finally, as good as axe 3 seems in theory, its tracking is poor, and it notoriously misses moving targets, especially if they move out of range after casting. It's no Rev sword 3, which will stick to targets through ports. But if you do find any level of success with it in this post-two-dodge reality, be prepared for pug teammates to take it for granted, and opponents to adhere to antiquated attitudes towards the pink and purple butterfly class. Good luck!

It seems no matter how many nerfs, no matter how underrepresented, no matter how lackluster remaining builds are, we'll never be accepted. When we win, it's because of our class. When we lose, that's how it should be. ^After beating a thief 1v1 and then 1v3. With post-patch, one-dodge hybrid-mirage trying shatter play.Running Dueling, Illusions, Mirage. Scepter/Pistol, Axe/Torch. No Chaos, no Staff, one dodge. That person is somewhat right. I'm not good. I spent previous matches in one impossible matchup after another, being focused, chased, and clinging to my one precious dodge, rarely having the nerve to use it purely offensively. When I finally had a small taste of victory, it was apparently illegitimate. What more do they want from us? Even in March 2020, with the harshest nerf in the game, people still don't cut us any slack. :(