Twilight Tempest.7584

You should probably leave this discussion since you clearly have nothing useful to add at this point.

Thanks for one of the few constructive posts so far. These defensives hinder any attack, not just Magnet + Elixir X. Could say the same about any other "instagib" combo. The beauty about these combos is they are almost always launched with the element of surprise, meaning the attacker has the luxury of seeing their target's status and whether these defensives are active. Among these combos however, I tend to think Magnet + Moa has one of the highest success rates because of how uniquely powerful it is in totally disabling the skill bar. Any other stun situation can be readily broken as long as there's an available stunbreak. ^ Food for thought for all the "just dodge" and "should have seen it coming" apologists. Yes, but total disabling of the skill bar when you otherwise have stunbreaks slotted is unique to this build (and perhaps the Mesmer equivalent). This is the unhealthy interaction I find problematic. Which is why I'm not against CCs like Magnet, or Moa, or "instagib" combos. However, I am, as a general principle, against situations that completely deprive players of the ability to react. I believe this is one of them. The only silver lining is that this meme combo is probably so uncommon it doesn't have much impact outside of niche situations like this, and probably why it remains to this day.

The thief stigma is real. I could have been on any other class I main that day and the outcome would almost certainly have been identical. The only difference would be a lot less irrelevant noise in the responses. Everyone gets caught by surprise from time-to-time. A stranger humbly shows two instances where they got caught and you and others make sweeping assumptions about their overall awareness and skill. What if those were the only two times something like that has happened out of hundreds of hours? For the record, this was the first time I've experienced the Magnet + Moa combo specifically--thousands of hours into WvW. There's a first time for everyone, and it probably feels pretty similar: The only thing more stupefying than the total skill bar disable is the fact it can be done. Until that day, I honestly did not know it was a thing. There are such things as dumb, degenerate, unhealthy, toxic skill interactions in complex game systems. In my opinion, this is one of them.

From the update in the original post: Once Magnet hits, the target has literally a fraction of a second to react with a stun-break before getting Moa'd. In the first case in the video, that window was a fleeting 0.5 seconds, determined by counting frames. Anyone who thinks their reaction time would have been adequate when factoring in latency, render lag, and sheer surprise factor is deluding themselves. Also this:

What "fight"? No matter what gear/specs were on, the skill bar would have been locked out for at least 3 seconds. That is true.

Sure, if there's a thief "1-shot" that 100% locks out the skill bar for at least 3 seconds. Show me where I said "1-2-3" combos are a problem, rather than "effectively disabling a player's keyboard" is a problem. There is a difference. Think about it.

Don't worry. I didn't get you wrong. No one cheers for thieves. That's a given. But let's play "magically replace the thief in the video with any spec of your choice." Would that change how people react? Some yes, some no. But intentionally or not, you still illustrated my point: The combo makes it so a player can't do anything. When has that ever been healthy in a competitive mode? Reality is, it's all fun and games so long as you're the one abusing it, and not the one being abused by it. People really have a hard time putting themselves in another's shoes. I might just work on changing that. A future video might be a montage of abusing Magnet + Elixir X on everyone. Make it go viral so enough copy cats abuse it too. Then, and only then, might Daddy Anet take the naughty kids' toys away.

^ This is the point no one wants to address. Too caught up in "Just dodge!" (the thing from off screen while in the middle of something else) and "Woohoo! Kitten thieves!" (even though it could happen to anyone). 👉 Should there ever be a situation where a player can't do anything, and their keyboard might as well be disconnected? 👈

If it's effective against block and damage-immunity playstyles, by extension it's effective against playstyles lacking block and damage-immunity. Which is to say it's effective against everything, lol. And why wouldn't it be? As long as the Magnet hits, it's game over. And there are a number of ways to maximize the odds of Magnet hitting: approaching a distracted target, approaching from out of their view, using stealth, or a combination thereof. I'm struggling to see how this combo would ever fail unless used against someone actively fighting the engi, with opportunity to see the telegraph.

😅😢 Never! Now teefs on the other hand... I eat them for breakfast, lunch, and dinner!

Didn't want to bore viewers with minutes of dodge-spamming Death's Judgment on rams while regularly 360-ing the camera angle. Suffice it to say the pull happened moments after the view shifted away from that side. Considering there was an enemy blob inside the lord room, and not one enemy had come from the side of the courtyard until the moment shown, the inner-SMC view was probably just as important to focus as the outer-view, if not more so. In fact, seconds after the stomp, the enemy zerg (the third team) poured out of that gate and may have rolled over the engi. In both scenarios shown, and in WvW in general, it is not unusual to get CC'd. It's not even unusual to get CC'd from off-screen. It's not even unusual to be deleted in the blink of an eye by meme-combos if not built and reacted to properly. These are to be expected. What is not expected is the equivalent of opponents reaching through cyberspace and disconnecting one's keyboard for a few seconds. What's the point of slotting stunbreaks and honing quick stunbreak+evade reflexes if all of that is taken off the table by an absurd interplay of two skills? Even if the pull comes from right in front of one, and one misses it, sure, awareness can be blamed, knowledge of tells, etc. But I still think that stunning + locking out stunbreaks should not exist. To borrow a familiar forum refrain, that truly is "toxic design."

What if the victim had been on any of their other mains? Still nothing they could do, but less victim shaming one imagines. If your moa success rate is 50%, you’re doing far better than yours truly. That’s typically what happens—they dash out of range. That’s fine. Moa should not be an “I win” button. But combined with CC, it basically is. Indeed. Ah yes, the pull that requires eyes on the back of one’s head to see. What if it comes from stealth as well? — There’s neither issue with the pull nor moa individually. But it should never be possible to totally and completely deprive people the use of their skill bar for any length of time. Stunning while also locking out stunbreaks should not be possible.

✔️ Something, something, meme-build ✔️ Something, something, day 1 elixir skill ✔️ Something, something, who plays core engi? ✔️ Something, something, just dodge ✔️ Something, something, glass build problems ✔️ Something, something, nerf teef -- Now that that's out of the way... I present to you the ultimate combo-wombo "I-win" button guaranteed not only to knock your opponent off their feet, but to literally give them an out-of-body experience as their keyboard dematerializes from beneath their fingers! I present to you... Toss Elixir X* Still deleting even the cele-ist of opponents, without any ability to resist, like it's 2012! *When used in combination with hard-CC. Slotted separately. Blindsiding engaged opponents and use of macros recommended for up to 99.99999% efficacy. Please use responsibly. These claims have not been evaluated by the ArenaNet Ministry of Balance and Fair Play. 👉 In all seriousness, why is this a thing? 👈 Let's be real: Realistically, Magnet is going to hit 99% of the time when used on an engaged/distracted opponent from out of view. It's a 1,200-range, un-blockable pull. One would almost have to try for it not to land. Once Magnet hits, the target has literally a fraction of a second to react with a stun-break before getting Moa'd. In the first case in the video, that window was a fleeting 0.5 seconds, determined by counting frames. Anyone who thinks their reaction time would have been adequate when factoring in latency, render lag, and sheer surprise factor is deluding themselves. Once Moa'd, the target's fate is sealed. There is literally no button they can press for the duration of the Moa. Their keyboard might as well be disconnected, and the player should feel free to get up and take a stretch. Any build unable to tank the incoming burst is immediately downed. Game over. I can't think of any other "1-shot" combo that totally deprives the target use of their input device other than perhaps the Mesmer equivalent. It's an unhealthy interaction between hard-CC + Moa resulting in degenerate gameplay. Either skill alone is fine, but in combination, it's oppressive. My suggestion would be that Moa skills remove any CC effect when landing. A Moa'd player can be subsequently CC'd, but not initially have their skill bar replaced with bird skills AND have those bird skills locked out. That's simply too much.

TBH, most of the EOD specs were stupidly busted when it launched. As were the specs introduced with expansions before it. That’s power creep for you. But while Vindicator, Virtuoso, Catalyst, Specter, Untaimed, Bladesworn, Mechanist, and even Harbinger were toned down in WvW, guess which one remains unfettered to this day? Why, the latest addition to Anet’s favorite blue class of course. To all the Willy mains in disbelief that their spec is being singled out, maybe start there.

Considering this topic is now 13 pages deep, mind pointing out where? I ask because I did bring up stealth in my previous post. But I certainly didn't say WB has it. If this was seriously stated, I'd like to see it. If by "skill" you mean zooming away to escape or reset a fight that isn't going well, then sure. If by "can be killed" you mean foolish enough not to do the above, then sure.

The thief comparison is pretty apt. A lot of people hate thieves. Accordingly a popular request is to delete stealth. But Willbender is basically a better thief. The burst + mobility of thief plus sustain in the form of boon spam (including stability and protection), aegis, invulnerability, and the benefit of heavy armor, all of which is not stealth-dependent, is basically how thief would have to be redesigned if stealth were removed. Pretty sure that wouldn't make them any less reviled. A popular complaint about thieves is they get to pick and choose their fights. This is also true of WB thanks to their top-tier mobility. So... WB is approaching thief-levels of disdain. Mostly because no spec should have it all: damage, sustain, and mobility. Yet thieves have seen nerf after nerf. While WB remains largely untouched, in WvW at least. Is the outcry any wonder?

These two were ganking solos near spawn. Unless there's another meaning, the first one's guild name suggests even they are laughing at WB's broken mobility. Glassy burst builds are one thing. They are vulnerable if their burst fails. But WBs are anything but glassy and on top of that almost no one can chase them when they run. It's simply stupid. And whether it's due to Cele stats or not, it needs to be addressed. https://imgur.com/a/ZwKwtOS

Duels are different from free roaming. Probably the biggest complaint about WB is their mobility/escape potential on top of their damage and sustain. If it's a mutual duel, the WB isn't running away. Whether it's due to Cele or not, the fact remains that WB has it all: damage, sustain, and mobility. Nothing else has all three. Most only have two.

But did Anet claim Stonemist Castle like that one time we were getting stomped too?

Interesting. Thanks for finding that. Seems some consistency is in order.

Oops. That was my first time playing that character competitively in a while so pretty rusty on the skills and timings for sure. Regardless, there was no way I was getting away from a QQ tryhard and their two thief cronies. Best I could have done is stalled the inevitable.

Wow you did that? You get the cookie my friend. Thank you for laying this mystery to rest. That's a really annoying stroke of luck. Pesky skale helped the bad guys win 😛

The reason this felt so odd is if you play-pause the video at the 0:14 timestamp, and time how long it is between the Berserker disappearing in stealth (start of thief heal) and getting up again (when you hear the Asura character say "I'm back."), it all happens in a fraction of a second. All within the 0:14 timeframe! It's 0:14 when the Berserker disappears, and still 0:14 when we hear "I'm back." I basically never see that unless it's a rally or a signet or glyph revive (neither of which was present in this fight). I guess the double heal from 75% health in stealth is the most plausible explanation. It's still bonkers though. Downed and back literally under a second without rally, signet, or glyph. Side note: The reason this all feels bad is because that Berserker is in QQ and was doing the usual QQ things of tryharding against casuals in that area of the map. And in usual QQ/tryhard fashion, they lure casuals into a fight by pretending to be solo, only for their on-comms pals to jump in and gank. That fight started with the Berserker jumping a lone friendly, then another random and I joining to help. Never to be outnumbered, even against casual pugs, the Gold and Platinum-ranked thieves came from nowhere and saved the Berserker from a deserved L. One thief limped away with 3%. But the bullies won.

Just trying to figure out how the Berserker in this fight rallied. A Brackish Scale does die about the time of the rally, but I thought we can't rally off ambient creatures. Maybe I'm wrong and that's it? I'm sure there's a simple explanation. Whoever tells me first gets a cookie. 🙂

This happened to my 23k HP mes in WvW a little while ago 😢 https://imgur.com/a/uY2lUiR Not saying it's unfair or anything. But it did come from completely off screen (behind me) as I was running from a blob that probably buffed it through the roof. First time getting deleted by an AD combo like that though. Mes, Deadeye, Soulbeast meme bursts have that ranged animation you can see even if the attacker is off screen. The only comparable "one touch" instagib from potentially off-screen attackers I can think of are maaaybe backstab thief and Willbender? But how many of those are hiding in boon balls? Anyway, as someone who enjoys playing bursty builds myself, I feel a little envious here. 😄