Twilight Tempest.7584

NGL, when I saw the title of this topic I thought you were meme-ing mine: Why is this even possible?, since they're both ranger versus thief, but sort of reverse scenarios. That topic isn't even about Ranger, but about a bizarre dismount situation which may be due to a bug. And still the Ranger cabal came out in force to explain away what happened, why it was my fault, make strawman arguments, and whataboutisms ("other builds can do it too"), etc. Now I don't mean this in a mean way, but a certain proverb involving stones and glass houses comes to mind. You certainly had some opinions in my thread (emphasis original): (The build in question there is the full zerkers Sic'em Sniper Roamer aka "Memebeast". Despite unparalleled long range 1-shot capability, it absolutely does have ample survivability and mobility in the form of stealths, GS4 block, GS3 dash, Smoke Assault port + evade, etc. But that wasn't even the point of my thread, which I repeatedly stated was not about Ranger.) Which is why I can't help sensing the projection here: ^ Pretty much applies to every profession, Rangers no less. Obviously a subjective statement with respect to "unfun," which could just as well apply to Sic'em SLB, Boonbeast, Immobeast, and Condi-Trapper Ranger. With slight modifications, we can actually use your own statement from my thread here. A lot of Thief players would probably agree that: "Thou I don't like the idea o[f] a whole e-spec class (Thief) depending on a couple of skills mechanics (stealth and mobility) to function , apparently this is what anet wants. Or as some say, about the only thing Thief excels at in WvW is running from fights. Many Thief players would gladly exchange some of that disengage if they were allowed to actually remain in fights with the sustain, resustain, and consistent damage other classes enjoy. Thieves don't get special treatment. All ports (but not portals) are limited by pathing. A mesmer could Blink the same way the thief in your video Shadowstepped. But comparing isolated skills among professions without comparing each profession as a whole is rather pointless. Yes, thieves have ports, but rangers have (re)sustain. Thief is squishy by nature; ranger isn't. The life of 11K base-HP thieves is a dance on the razor's edge between killing or being killed even quicker. As much as Thief players want it, there is currently no bruiser/brawler Thief build. Maybe EoD will change that (one can hope). Perhaps look at it this way: When thieves run, it's because they literally have no choice. They certainly aren't going to re-sustain themselves mid-fight the way a lot of other classes can. Yeah... probably ill-advised to open with that, especially coming from Ranger.

Or 2.7 second window in my case. 😄

Why hello. I take it you were on a different account that day?

I hear you. That sub-discussion originates from an assertion that a focused condi attack is comparable to what's in the clip, as well as generally from the various claims that other builds can readily dismount people. I'm just trying to emphasize that nothing I'm aware of besides Memebeast is going to fully down a player before the dismount animation even completes. I do so only in response to various "XYZ build can do it too!" comments. Hopefully I've made clear throughout this discussion that I personally am not suggesting any changes to Rangers at this time. Impressive. But did you make their downstate immunity kick in before they even landed on the ground? 😜 As I responded above in this post, I'm only getting into the specifics of Ranger insofar as others have deflected from it by saying "but other things can do it too!" Because I don't think anything else can quite do it as effectively. And specifically concerning the dismount bug, RF burst uniquely takes advantage by both dismounting and continuing through the dismount--within a very large radius no less. Sure, one can come up with other build rotations with chained/channeled burst, but they're going to be done much closer, so therefore less likely in the case of a fleeing target (one who's already dodged Lance no less), and certainly more within an obvious danger zone. There are some comments in here which are clearly anti-Ranger. Mine aren't among them. Fix the bug; don't change Ranger. It's not dumb to fix a bug that unexpectedly applies base stats during forced dismount. What if I told you there are certain places on the map where if you walk over them, you'll be instantly downed. You won't expect it before you experience it the first time, and you can l2p by remembering where they are. Sound ridiculous? That's how ridiculous the dismount bug is. It's pretty clear even from the experienced players posting here that many were unaware of it. Reasonable expectations matter. They are a legitimate basis for changes. Fix the bug.

So like I suggested two weeks ago, it sounds like nothing out there is capable of capitalizing on the dismount bug quite like a Memebeast. Pretty sure that's because the RF channel not only dismounts, but continues through the dismount, during the window the player has base stats. Any single strike 1-shot build will nuke the mount, but it won't carry over to the player during and after dismount. And again, condi-bombs by their DoT nature provide more time to respond. Speaking only for myself, yes, it would have made all the difference: I mean, the player base has always been divided into two camps when it comes to 1-shot interactions. Either they think 1-shots are healthy or they aren't. The only reason there's crossover discussion of the Memebeast is because practically speaking, it's probably the only thing likely to capitalize on the dismount bug. I think the bug should be fixed regardless. No one honestly expects to be stripped of their armor during forced dismount in addition to being CC'd. The CC is punishment enough. It still forces a stun break + defensive skill. I just don't see any reason for it to exist other than to reward degeneracy. Personally, I see the Warclaw simply as a means of getting around the map faster. I didn't experience it when it was "OP." Regardless of their views on the Warclaw, I'm going to guess that 99% of WvW players do not expect to be downed before the forced dismount animation even completes. I'm going to suggest that's reason enough it should not happen.

I know it's slightly off-topic, but I'll add to this discussion by saying I, like many newer WvWers, started off on LB/GS Soulbeast for its relative ease of play and ranged safety. The Sic'em reveal and projectile tracking into stealth also made it seem like a Thief killer, something of particular importance to me having briefly played Mesmer and fallen prey to many a Thief. And yet, even on Ranger, I got destroyed by halfway decent thieves. It was simply embarrassing. So I tried Thief myself. To be perfectly candid, on my Thief, I love fighting all manner of Ranger builds. Usually, the only time they're difficult is when they can hide behind their group or walls, in which case, I mostly don't bother. But I will sometimes try and get the jump on them during their RF or Barrage, interrupting them, forcing a dodge, and whittling them down if they don't disengage fast enough. And I am by no means great. The tankier Ranger builds are definitely more of a (fun) challenge. I presume you're referring to me (the OP) and not the Ranger in the vid, since you mentioned the Christian burial (complete with farewell jumps ceremony). I thought it was well established by now that I was not glass, but the Ranger clearly was. 😕

Right, but are there any builds, condi or power, that can do this in under 2 seconds from up to ~1800 range? Anything that could delete a player before they even hit the ground from the dismount, as we saw here? Not trying to make this about the build in the video, but since people seem to be deflecting with "other builds can do it too," I'm asking what other builds can do exactly what was in the video, that quickly, from that range. I'm no expert on the damage calculations, but I think UmbraNoctis's breakdown seems reasonable: And if I'm not mistaken, there is zero armor mitigation in these numbers given the stat bug. From the Wiki: I normally have 2,629 armor while mounted, and 2,168 off mount. Had player armor been applied during the dismount, would it have prevented the instant downstate? Maybe someone better with the numbers can answer.

Same. If it sounded like I was suggesting balancing builds around the bug, that's not what I meant. I guess I'm not following. I thought you were just making the point that condis ignore armor, similar to how damage during forced dismount does (due to the bug).

Solo roaming not allowed? Getting thrown off a mount IRL doesn't strip you of all protective gear. Imagine if getting thrown off a horse, bike, or motorcycle means your helmet automatically gets removed as well. That's what's happening with Warclaw forced dismount. Except theoretically condi is DOT with counterplay in the form of cleanse. You're not going to get globaled by a condi bomb in a fraction of a second just because condis ignore armor. Power is different, as we saw. Bottom line, guys: Do we want any build (not just Memebeast) to be able to exploit a forced dismount bug to instagib people off their mounts? Is that a healthy interaction? Should it be a thing?

The dismounted player does usually have to burn a stun break and evade if they want to avoid any follow up. So while the dismounting player has spent some offensive cooldowns, they do have the defensive advantage. In the case of Soulbeast, for example, if the RF burst doesn't down the target outright (where have we seen that before? 😅), they have the standard GS3 + SA + Maul + WI + GS5 + Maul follow up burst to use against a target who is presumably down a stun break and evade if they're still alive. Also, as the one initiating the fight, it behooves the dismounting player to know what they're doing. EDIT: In short, forced dismounts are balanced by the dismounter spending some offensives while the dismounted has to spend some important defensives right at the start of the fight. And since I think most would prefer there be an actual fight, let's maybe do something about that base armor bug so the dismounted player isn't K.O.'d before the bell even rings?

Pretty much. Personally, I don't have a problem with the "Memebeast" build and its damage. It has counterplay and in my opinion isn't as bad as true one-shots from stealth that used to be more common. I'm pretty confident I'd beat this person 1v1 if he didn't bail into his Keep/NPCs whenever he got low. That's not a brag. His build isn't a dueling build, but a pretty degenerate gank build designed to do one thing and one thing only: instagib the unprepared, whether that's due to lack of awareness, being new, or unwittingly putting themself in danger by remaining on an injured Warclaw. I don't have a problem with being forcibly dismounted either. But I do think the forced dismount needs attention because it both CCs and delays application of player armor stats. This makes it too easy for anyone running anything close to a Memebeast build to global people from their mounts. It's an unhealthy interaction and has no place in the game, IMO. Now that I know it's possible to stunbreak the moment the dismount animation begins (even while your character is airborne), I think the only change needed is applying player armor stats the moment the dismount animation begins (since apparently that isn't currently the case).

Forced dismount weirdness... first time... didn't know... lesson learned. I don't think I have problems with that build either as long as I'm not CC'd and temporarily naked from forced dismount. I mean between today and that other day, this guy probably tried to burst me at least half a dozen times, but he never succeeded when I was on foot (even today when he thought he snuck up on me while I was capping the SE Sentry) and he had to run into his Keep every time. The one time he got me was in the OP clip while I was on Warclaw trying not to waste time with him. 😕

@Aeolus.3615 @Woop S.7851 @Gotejjeken.1267 @Abyssisis.3971 @ArchonWing.9480 Tagged you guys because you all questioned how fast the Soulbeast's skills executed. Hope you don't mind. So I ran into him again today and he was up to the same shenanigans. Trying to burst me then bail into his keep when pressured. But that's not the interesting part. Later, apparently he was trying to ambush some of us taking the SEC. Check out this screen. We found him completely frozen in place. Notice he was taking no damage and the "Out of range!" indicator for my shortbow autos. I know this can happen due to lag, server desyncs, or D/Cs. But could this also suggest something about his net or latency did come into play the other day, or that he's up to something fishy? 🤔

@Dawdler.8521 @diomache.9246 I think maybe what Arheundel means is that condis got indirectly buffed by the Feb 2020 update since power damage was nerfed across the board, but several condis were left untouched. So relatively speaking, they were "buffed" even if that isn't technically accurate.

Exactly. I think this is bordering on being an exploit. The base armor bug during forced dismount creates a situation where something like Ranger's RF burst is uniquely situated to exploit the bug by dealing huge damage at millisecond intervals, over the course of the RF channel. That is, it's pretty much guaranteed to hit during the small window when your character is naked stat-wise. It's patently unhealthy, even if it isn't common. I don't think anyone who plays the game seriously thinks this should be a thing. Punishing us with a CC for allowing our Warclaw to die under us is one thing. But briefly removing our armor as well is another thing. The solution is to fix the armor bug if possible. No changes to Ranger.

I'm going to assume you haven't read the edits to the OP or replies to others in here. I was downed before my character even hit the ground. I'm used to stun breaking once I'm on the ground following a forced-dismount, and was planning to do that here. I did not know you can stunbreak during the dismount animation while your character is still flying through the air. I'm willing to bet most people didn't/don't know that either, which would explain why no one answered this question I asked repeatedly--can you use stunbreak during the dismount animation--until UmbraNoctis did at the bottom of page 3. Here we go again... 😑 Going to copy a previous reply to people making similar comments: Also, I did add a shot of the Soulbeast's buffs in response to someone on page 2 (within 24 hours of the OP), which is also visible from the link to the screenshot in the OP: https://imgur.com/a/anUCLSR Still sus? As concluded above, the reason this whole incident "doesn't feel right" to both me and the Ranger Police might be the base armor bug in forced dismounts. The real question is: Is this something we want in this game? So now it's everyone's responsibility to wear durability runes? 😆 By the way, I'm pretty sure I was wiped by the RF burst alone (combat log wasn't up unfortunately). I don't think SA was even necessary and probably just force of habit or part of the macro rotation. 🤣 Anyway, what you just laid out there basically proves Ranger damage was not hit nearly as hard as other classes since the February 2020 update. I'm still not saying Rangers need changes. But let's at least agree Ranger is unique in having a build capable of such ridiculousness. At least, I'm not aware of any other build capable of doing what's in the clip.

You don't say... https://imgur.com/a/qKHw7qn

Or maybe to compete more fairly, Mag doesn't need a link.

^This. And lol at "go back in their structure of choice." You can have a macro set up, but you don't have to use it. You can still do everything manually as you see fit, but when that "reck noob who thinks they're safe on Warclaw" scenario comes up, you can delete them with one button lol. Heck, the ranger in the vid might as well set up a corpse jump + siege toss macro. They probably do it enough, it would make sense. (1) Wasn't in Swipe range, (2) even if I was, I would have had to know I could break out of the dismount animation and do so before I was vaporized in the air. In case you missed it, I was downed before my character landed on the ground. But yes, BUFF TEEF! 😛 Why must people (usually Ranger players) exaggerate my part in this? It's pretty amazing how so many act like this never happened to them, ever. Until experienced at least once, how is anyone supposed to know that base character stats are applied during the dismount animation and stun breaks can be used while ragdolling in the air, even before you land? Judging by the fact that only one person in this discussion finally answered my question at the top of page 4 by confirming that we can indeed use stun breaks during the airborne dismount animation, I doubt many people actually knew this. Or they would have said it much earlier to hit me with "l2p." Again, this isn't a ranger hate topic. Memebeast is far from the only degenerate build. This is about the bizarre behavior of the forced Warclaw dismount that is pretty much certain to catch everyone off guard the first time they're affected by it.

I'll copy what I said to UmbraNoctis some posts up: The clip is cropped to leave out the UI elements, which weren't particularly relevant. I'm not so hardcore that I leave the combat log up, so that's not even available. The only other thing would be the skillbar, which wouldn't be all that useful considering there was no actual "fight" in this clip. People have already asked about my HP and I answered them. I guess I need to put it in the OP at this point because people don't read my replies. The only info I think might be relevant, which I gladly provided to anyone who asked, is what my HP, stats, and armor were. I also included that I was on a pretty vanilla meta build. Nothing remarkable about my character such as being full glass or running a janky build that would explain being vaporized that fast. EDIT: That said, I have nothing to hide. If you think seeing the skill bar, which is basically the Warclaw skill bar and health pool and then a fleeting view of my character's skill bar with skills disabled by the CC, and the total HP not even visible because the numbers flash so fast as it's zeroed out, I can make a new version. I really don't see how it would help though. Right, but I was just pointing out the solid mobility in the build because you said there was "ZERO mobility." And presumably if the ranger switches to GS for Swoop, their LB rotation is already on c/d and they either want to close a gap or create one. Where did I ask, "How is it possible a ranger has defeated me?" I said throughout this discussion that I'm not complaining about rangers or the memebeast. I just think the way forced dismount works is kind of punishing and counterintuitive. I can tell you what was going through my mind when I saw the dismount is, "Ok, as soon as I hit the ground, I'm breaking stun and evading/moving. WTH?! I'm already dead."

Thank you! I remember reading about this somewhere in the forum a while ago. Maybe it was one of your posts. If this is accurate, it would explain a lot of the "this just doesn't feel right" about this situation.

Ah, I love players that cba to read anything written in the discussion and instead make incorrect assumptions. 1. Not a glass cannon. 2. When was there an opportunity to reflect? Yes, I'm bad because I didn't know I can be blown up while in the forced dismount animation. My fault for not knowing this is a thing until I actually experienced it for the first time. Unless people take a passive life-saver trait like Stoneform, I'm pretty sure this can happen to almost anyone. As for skill, I guess it's "skill" to camp a Keep and run inside as soon as you're about to die. Rinse, repeat. Please stop pretending nothing like this has ever happened to you. If you say otherwise, you're lying. 😃

You are the first person who answered this question in here. Thanks! I got the answer from someone in game earlier as well. I agree the best options are either dismount before your mount dies, or be prepared to stun break and evade. However, I don't think it's healthy to be able to instagib average spec'd and geared people off their mounts. As some already said, that's the sort of thing Anet was trying to get away from since the February 2020 patch. In that spirit, I think there should be invuln frames during the dismount animation, and then the CC can kick in once the player is on the ground. I think it's more intuitive for people to understand that that's when you're in control of your character again and should do something, as opposed to when your character is ragdolling in the air during the dismount animation. If the attacker wants a fight, then let there be a fight. Not global someone mostly because they don't realize how forced dismount behaves. Just my opinion. If there was no advantage to macros, people wouldn't use them. Macros make it easy to string a combination of multiple inputs together with only a single user input. That's inherently faster than anyone can manually perform multiple inputs, which will have inevitable delays between them compared with setting up a macro. The clip is cropped to leave out the UI elements, which weren't particularly relevant. I'm not so hardcore that I leave the combat log up, so that's not even available. The only other thing would be the skillbar, which wouldn't be all that useful considering there was no actual "fight" in this clip. People have already asked about my HP and I answered them. I guess I need to put it in the OP at this point because people don't read my replies. Here it is again: I was on my thief with around 18K+ HP including buffs, wearing medium ascended armor with mostly Marauder's stats. Sorry if not being full glass in green gear goes against a preferred narrative. In other words, there was nothing remarkable about my character that would justify what happened.

I appreciate everyone's comments, but it seems like some don't read what I already said in my edit to the OP or in my first comment in here (literally the second post in the discussion): -- ^This sounds horrible and somewhat abusive. More reason to manually dismount when the Warclaw is about to die. Yes, a bit glassy, but not full glass. As I responded to others in here, I have 18K+ HP with buffs. Mostly Marauder's stats. Medium ascended armor. Definitely not a 1-shot build myself. I'll point you to what I said in the OP: Pure glass, I believe. Zero mobility? Welll, they used GS Swoop and Smoke Assault port pretty effectively. If I'm not mistaken, that's effectively 1,000 + 750 units of solid mobility. (Swoop isn't in the clip, but they kept using it to run into their Keep earlier.) If you watch the opening of the clip closely (or read my replies to others) both Warclaw evades were used before the RF burst. First I dodged Lance, then I tried to dodge Battle Maul. Of course I normally try to dodge the RF. And I'm not running a one-shot build, as I mentioned above. I generally don't have too much trouble with most Soulbeasts. Very good Soulbeasts and Immob Druids are a different matter. I just didn't know what a death sentence the scenario in the clip is. Going forward, I know to manually dismount if my Warclaw is about to die and I'm in enemy range. I tried to do a "INB4: L2P" in the second post by acknowledging what I learned and plan to do going forward, but I guess it just gets overlooked. 😕

Yes indeed 😁 Yep that's the lesson I learned from this.