Twilight Tempest.7584

I mean, do you engage every single player you see? Is the only option ever to fight? EDIT: I forgot to reiterate what I said in an earlier post--the Soulbeast in the clip was also trolling. Running into his Keep every time he got low. I saw this happen a few times. So I didn't want to waste time "fighting" him near his Keep. If you review the opening seconds of the clip, you'll see I did dodge his Lance and tried to dodge his Battle Maul. Nothing left for the RF burst. 20/20 hindsight is a wonderful thing. I said towards the beginning of this thread that I probably should have dismounted myself before the burst. It's just that until this experience, I never expected to be deleted off my mount before my character even landed on the ground.

@Aeolus.3615@Woop S.7851 If there wasn't anything sketchy, I assume he used GS Swoop, which is 1,000 range, into merged Smoke Assault to cover the remaining gap. The QZ RF burst with OWP into SA + WI is so fast and seamless I wouldn't be surprised if macros are in use, as others suggested. Not sure if macros are considered cheating.

Does it work while you're in the dismount animation in the air? I was zeroed before I hit the ground.

I have 18K+ base HP before buffs. I was out of Warclaw evades when the burst came. First one was used to evade his Lance. Second was used trying to avoid his Battle Maul. You can see in the clip I did use look behind but it didn't really matter since I had no evades. As I said above, unless there were skills I could use while locked in the forced dismount animation, the only out would have been manually dismounting before the burst so I could use skills. Thanks for the suggestions!

See the edit in the OP. I was downed before hitting the ground. Unless skills work while airborne/freefalling/ragdolling during the forced dismount animation, the only option would have been to manually dismount before the burst. If it wasn't obvious from the opening part of the clip, I wasn't looking to fight but to get away. Still, lessons learned I suppose. 18K+ base before buffs. Exactly what he was doing. Yeah, they had Quickness: https://imgur.com/s5izUlN

I re-watched the full clip in slow-mo where I can see my health bar and I was actually downed before my character even hit the ground from the forced dismount! I'm not sure if it would have even been possible to dodge, let alone use an (instant cast) reflect skill after breaking stun in those fractions of a second. Maybe someone knows the answer. If it is possible, I guess one also has to have good ping and cat-like reflexes as well.

I think this is my main gripe. It makes it way too easy for silly builds like the one this Soulbeast was using to global people off their mounts with very little opportunity to do anything. They already nerfed the Warclaw so hard, I don't think it needs this extra liability that just rewards people for playing silly builds.

It's a good thing Rangers have excellent non-projectile weapons too. Keep in mind that projectile attacks are usually ranged, and ranged attacks are generally safer than melee. Melee still contends with blocks and invulns. It makes sense for ranged projectile attacks to have a drawback to their relative safety.

Except it wasn't?

Yeah I'm not even complaining about the meme build. Don't arrest me ranger police. 😇 If he didn't run away? Yes, I'd like to think so considering he was glass. But as it turns out, not only was this person playing a dumb build, any time he got low he'd glide off the cliff into his Bay's moat to get away. I saw someone chase him there a couple times unable to get him before he went inside. Yeah, first day of new links and all they do is spawn camp and BM when they win grossly outnumbered (in their favor) fights. 😑 Also, don't know if it was just the group when I was playing, but they seem to have a LOT of pew pew Sic'ems.

Yeah, I know how bursty SLB is, especially that build. I realize there's like a second after you're dismounted where you're stunned and should use a stun break + evade. I also realize it might be better to dismount before the burst in that situation. Fine, L2P. Still seems really stupid though. Guess we're all supposed to experience this once before we realize what a liability the Warclaw can be. P.S.: Imagine BM while being on the biggest bandwagon server of NA and abusing one of the cheesiest things in the game against a low rank player. Classy.

https://streamable.com/osq7gk Not talking about the 1-shot. Talking about the 1-shot off mount directly into downed without being able to do anything. -- EDIT 1 (August 1, 2021): I rewatched the full clip where I can see the health bar, and I was actually CC'd and downed before my character even hit the ground from the forced dismount! In the screenshot below, the "Fight to Survive" text is appearing while my character is still freefalling. I'm not sure if it would have even been possible to stun break and dodge, let alone do anything else in those fractions of a second--while my character was airborne. Anyone know? https://imgur.com/a/anUCLSR To be clear, this isn't a "nerf Soulbeast" topic. The other player was clearly using a meme build that is countered by avoiding the burst (although this one was your classic run into their Keep before you can catch them pest). I'm more concerned with how we get CC'd in the air during a forced Warclaw dismount which continues after we land (looks kind of like a Knockdown). I sort of feel like there should be some invuln frames while we're airborne until we land, assuming skills don't work while we're freefalling. If it is possible to use skills while ragdolling, it's a very narrow window and pretty counterintuitive. EDIT 2 (August 2, 2021): Since many have asked: I was on my meta D/P Daredevil with around 18K+ HP including buffs, wearing medium ascended armor with mostly Marauder's stats. I think that's pretty average. If anyone wants more info, feel free to ask. EDIT 3 (August 3, 2021): Apparently there is a bug with the forced Warclaw dismount where there is a delay before your armor stats are applied. If true, it probably explains a lot about what happened here. It's even more reason to preemptively dismount rather than risk being forcibly dismounted. Credit to RisenHowl for mentioning it:

You kind of contradicted yourself there. Otherwise, yes, thief weapon skills substitute initiative for cooldowns. All this means is thief can use lower initiative cost (usually lower impact) weapon skills repetitively without waiting for cooldowns. But finite initiative still limits which and how many skills thief can use in a given time. The initiative system is certainly more flexible than the standard cooldown system. It's part of thief's profession mechanic, just like pets are Ranger's. Also, unlike say, a Sic'em Rapid Fire burst from stealth with Point Blank Shot for good measure (OWP optional), all from 1800+ range, Backstab isn't going to global anyone who isn't naked. There are pros and cons to every build. If we're going to compare Ranger and Thief stealth attacks, let's compare all aspects.

Stealth is thief's class mechanic. For better or worse, the entire profession is designed around using stealth to varying degrees depending on build. When people ask to reduce thief's access to stealth, they seem to forget how inherently squishy (low HP) thief is and how much its damage has been nerfed over the years. Thief does not have access to (often passive) invulns and blocks the way other professions do, so it depends on stealth, mobility, and positioning (very active play) to survive. Imagine kicking Soulbeasts out of Beastmode and putting a cooldown on re-entering for missing an attack. Imagine doing the same with Necros in Shroud, Holos in Holomode, etc. All of these are signature class/specialization mechanics with available counter play just like thieves and stealth. Do any other classes get temporarily denied their "special mode" just for trying but failing to connect an attack while in it? Their attacks may not have the advantage of stealth but they do have other perks while in their special mode. Why should only stealth be singled out other than simply not liking how it works? That said, adding Reveal for missed/blocked/reflected/invulned/evaded attacks makes some inherent sense imo, and would certainly raise the skill floor for playing thief (and other stealth-based builds). Are we prepared to give other playstyles the same treatment?

This is pretty demoralizing. As if balance and population weren't problems enough.

I wouldn't say niche use in hyper-coordinated comp teams makes it OP. Is thief OP because teams have almost always used one since forever? Also, if the double mes comp is because of the new staff alacrity, literally no one asked for that change.

A rather silly request anyhow. Can't expect the best advice from those who don't even play the class. That goes for any class. OP basically assumes mains can't be unbiased, which isn't true. Some are, some aren't. Some, like Jazz, are as objectively analytical as it gets and just tell it like it is.

Not sure about elsewhere but it's pretty snowflakey behavior. Someone once rage PM'd, blocked so I couldn't respond, then un-blocked to say one more thing, then re-blocked. I feel bad I had that effect on them.

Totally. This is the direction they should rework Mirage, but it would require some work. Active, engaging play instead of passive.

@Trevor Boyer.6524 Thanks for elaborating. The initial post seemed to be focused on Smoke Screen as the primary problem, so I responded based on that. Combined with other frequent sources of Blind along with the siphoning traits, I can see how the build is a bit loaded. Not sure if and how it should be adjusted though. Either way, seems every time Thief gets a particularly effective build it gets nuked eventually. 😕

This. I feel like I'm missing something, which I may well be. Why isn't stepping off the node, out of Smoke Screen for a moment, clearing any Blind, and dropping any ground targeted AOE on the node to force the thief off, a viable and common-enough counter? Ranger Barrage, Scourge Shades, lots of Ele skills, any AOE pulls and knockbacks... It's acknowledged that Guardians and Necros in general can probably deal with it. I imagine most other professions have effective ground-target AOEs available as well. ^I thought the same when reading the update notes.

Exactly. Pretty much what I was getting at here: To each their own, but passive-play staff Mirage at its peak was one of the most reviled builds in competitive modes and the coming update is a push back towards that. QoL improvements are always nice, but I would personally prefer they improved, dare I say buffed (or just partially un-nerfed), the far more active and risky Axe, and do little things like restore Jaunt if a second dodge is non-negotiable. Not to mention trait lines have been butchered so bad over the last few years they may as well blow them up and start over. It's amusing when other professions actually have discussions about choices among trait lines to take and traits to pick.

Are thieves not allowed to be "side node decap duelist[s]"?

Don't worry. The influx of staff-mers come May 11 will kick off a fresh round of nerf Mirage discussions and Anet will continue to ignore all the things that really need attention.

Maybe I’m missing something, but can’t the opponent move out of the SS/off the node, lose Blind, and force the thief out with their own non-projectile AOEs? The initial post seems to presume staying in the SS, which of course only select classes/builds can afford.