Logos.5603

Well, I was right.

We need greater cooldowns for mounts, or for them to function like ammo skills (with some mounts costing more than others). Maybe even give some brutal anti-air abilities to some bosses. Back to travelling on foot folks because right now only peasants travel on foot.

An interesting bit of evidence that seems to suggest that there is a natural kind demon out there is the existence of items that affect demons. For example: the potion of demon slaying and the sigil of demon slaying. Keeping the nature of how these items actually function in the world to determine whether something is a demon out of mind for now,* ideally we should be able to conclude that anything affected by such items is indeed an actual demon. A problem with this approach is that neither Kanaxai or Deimos are affected by these sigils because of devs shenanigan (i.e., balancing). *In fact, this highlights a lore issue with GW. A lot of the items which we can make and use have no in-game lore associated with them. What are sigils really (or runes) and how do they work from an in-world context?

From the "demons" hyperlink from one of your comments: "Outside the world we know, other dimensions exist, realms beyond what we can see and experience. Civilized humans know that when they die, their souls pass on into the Mists, the realm of the afterlife. Some spirits linger in this world, or find ways to walk back into the realm of flesh...yet there are other creatures who watch them and wait, drawn to the energy of countless souls. Sometimes souls are not enough. In dimensions alien to the physical world, sentient entities scheme of ways to enter the realm of flesh, dreaming of the havoc they can wreak. Just as ghosts can defy death by returning to the land of the living, demons find ways into our world, where they feast on suffering, despair, and the vital energy of intelligent creatures. Demons are more than creatures of the Mists—they are made from the Mists themselves, bits of etheric matter that have gained malignant sentience and power. Whether they appear as monstrous humanoids, bestial abominations, or radically inhuman horrors, they share many of the same aspirations: the strong consume or dominate the weak, reveling in their feasts and victimization. As they are not native to the real world, demons hold an abiding hatred of its denizens. They are also ruthlessly intelligent, more than willing to enter into arrangements that allow them to routinely prey on humans and other foolish living creatures." (emphasis mine) The "we" here indicates that this is an in-world perspective. It is from the perspective of someone from the world of Tyria. This makes sense, for it allows seeming contradictions to take place without damaging the actual in-universe logic. As Mandala pointed out, this definition of demons is challenged by the very existence of margonites (which are also defined as demons in the lore), which are "beings explicitly born as humans on Tyria and turned into malevolent demonic entities by Abaddon." But this is fine because the devs are not contradicting their own lore. Rather this shows that Tyrians have inconsistent definitions of demons. This is great storytelling by the way. Instead of devs laying down the law as to what demons are, they only give us the perspective of Tyrians, which allows for all kinds of contradictions, expansions, and clarifications to be included later.

These are in-world definitions of demons and a such they can be wrong or incomplete. We have to be careful not to confuse how demons are defined in-world versus what the developers definition of demons is (as a natural kind).

Yea, I hear you. We definitely should try to move beyond the wiki answers, and the things that are already "solved" as far as the current evidence goes.

I think all of this is fair grounds for speculation (however wild), and all lore can be expanded upon in all kinds of ways, but if the goal is to try to draw accurate connections (less speculative, and more substantive) then we should restrict our speculations to what we can infer from the lore (both from what is said in-game and what devs say). Also, we need to be really careful with signpostings like "Unknown Demon." Is this what our characters are thinking? Or is this a sign that the developers are using to let us know that Kanaxai belongs to the natural kind "demons"? We don't know for certain, though I would suspect that this is what our characters are thinking, and as such, it is mere speculation on their part. "but someone speculating that all the elder dragons were related would have been absolutely correct." True, but at the time that would be a baseless speculation and rightfully dismissed as not really contributing to the development of an accurate picture of the in-game world. I guess the question is "why should we entertain wild speculations?" There might be a reason to do so, but lore enthusiasts might not really care for such questions since they don't really contribute to understanding the in-game world from the evidence at hand.

But this is not denoting a theme, but an origin of the creature. Saying that "I know the form he takes in Bastion of the Penitent is a manifestation of Saul's inner negative emotions" implies that you know that he existed as an entity separate from Saul's inner negative emotions. However, the devs have explicitly stated that Deimos is a manifestation of Saul's inner negative emotions at least on two occasions (whether he is also the product of the mists is open to speculation). This is pretty concrete evidence of Deimos' origin (at least part of its origin). Why do we need a definitive in-universe reference as well? Where do you get the idea that he is taking a form in the Bastion of the Penitent. Am I missing something? True, we only have rumors of Kanaxai's origins, but he predates Deimos.

https://www.artstation.com/artwork/4QVDk "Saul's Demon is the final raid boss in the Guild Wars 2 raid Bastion of the Penitent. It was released alongside the Living World chapter "The Head of the Snake" on February 8, 2017. This creature is the manifestation of the all the inner demons of the character, Saul D'Alessio. I was responsible for the concept, model and texture" (Chris Bennett, emphasis mine).

I think it is possible that they are both demons, though establishing this would require more info than we currently have regarding the nature of demons in GW. As for speculating about a relationship between the two...it depends on what we are speculating about. I think we know enough about Deimos and Kanaxai to rule out some relationships. For example, they were not produced the same way, and one is much older than the other.

It is worth pointing out that in the youtube link that Konig shared it is suggested that perhaps Deimos is not even real, raising the question of whether it is even a demon at all though the devs call it a demon just right before they raise this possibility.

Yea, but these things being called demons in-game by NPCs does not mean that they are (a) demons, nor (b) that there is a natural kind "demons" to which they all belong. Second, the developers might just be calling them what they are called within the context of the known lore. In which case, they may or may not turn out to be demons (i.e., because there is not a natural kind "demons" in the lore after all). Lore-wise, the evidence we have that demons exist is that there are creatures with at least three different origins that look creepy and are bad, and that these are called "demons" by Tyrians. Whether or not this means that they are all actually demons, and that there is a natural kind "demon" to which they belong is pure speculation.

Mmm...in what sense do we "know" that they are both demons? The wiki classifies them as demons, but does the demon classification pick a natural kind? Demons can be (1) just product of the mists, (2) products of the mists + manifestations of sins and guilt, and (3) they can be mortals turned into demons by powerful magical creatures ("demons" or gods [i.e., Abaddon]). My worry is that game classifies these creatures as "demons" because Tyrians classify them as demons, and as such we are reading "demons" as natural kinds (as denoting an ontologically real kind) when they are not supposed be such in the lore. Tyrians are just wrong about thinking of them as one and the same thing. The fact that (1-3) can be "demons," despite their different origins I think suggests this, hence the "possible."

It is not steampunk because it lacks the punk in steampunk.

"Though called a demon, which are beings born of malevolent energies of the Mists, it is a manifestation of Saul D'Alessio's sins and guilt. Due to the unclear nature of demons, and the Bastion of the Penitent overlapping with the Mists, it is possible for Deimos to be both. Deimos's very body depicts Saul's guilt and sins." Both here refers to being both a manifestation of D'Alessio's sins and guilt, and a demon. The only relation or connection we can (should?) infer from the wiki is that they are both (possibly) demons, Deimos also being something more (a manifestation of sins and guilt).