RisenHowl.2419

There's some stuff to love with the new mesmer spec for wvw like focus pulls into sword of decimation, but it falls short on damage and mechanics. -Too many projectiles. Dagger 3 is a projectile that shoots out more projectiles, like it's mocking you. -Too many piercing abilities, not enough variation. There's almost never a scenario where it's worth casting the elite if your f1 is available -The larger the groups are the more buggy the spec becomes, shatters that are unblockable suddenly just disappear without dealing damage, might be due to bad tracking -Greatsword 2 is the only reliable source of blades without running dueling. The phantasms from gs4 and focus 5 frequently bug out and don't spawn at all. Torch and pistol are both unsuitable for any large scale fights. Sword 3 requires you to hit a target to spawn a blade... -Staff and scepter are both projectile based. Staff is great for roaming but terrible for larger scale content while scepter offers little outside of its block. You already get a block on each shatter activation =/ -Overall just really low damage. All of these clips I'm in full or almost full berserker gear and even when presented perfect bombing opportunities it falls short by a mile. Even if phantasms were fixed and I were able to get 5 blades for each cast of bladesong harmony the damage would only be 10-15% higher, still well below what you'd expect with 4k power and 240% crit damage. Easiest fix right off the bat is to make f1 a bouncing projectile instead of piercing. That might make the spec worth using even if the phantasms don't get fixed.

Crossing over any unblockable ground CC causes each of vindicator's dodges to fail, regardless of if you have stability. Includes line of warding, sanctuary, spectral ring, unsteady ground, and static field

Haven't gotten any today at all despite getting tons of junk items

Make bladesong harmony bounce instead of pierce. That's all it'd take

I just got 2 with 510%

you can push shroud 4 over 20k

That's the thing, you're trying to apply a stochastic model to living players who follow trends. It's not random movement, it's purposeful. In a stochastic model the players would have an equal chance of moving in any direction at random intervals, making it impossible to determine where any players will be within an aoe's radius. Okay, great. That'd lead to diffusion of damage across each player moving within an aoe because at any point any 5 of them are going to take damage dependent on who is closest to the center of the aoe. You think it leads to dispersed damage across the entire group but it doesn't because the players involved aren't randomly distributed. Some of them are going to stand in the back, some stand in the front, some stop moving, some are stopped from moving. Your base assumption is that people are moving randomly, which is wrong, which is why your further assumptions past that point are also wrong. You're trying to apply a static model to a complex organic system and then passing it off as the obvious answer. Pennies floating down a stream can't decide to ignore gravity by swimming upwards, they have no individual goals which they're trying to attain, there's no intention in their movement pattern which makes them harder to predict. Players are more likely to move in parallel lines than not as you can see in the videos. Players to the left of the tag tend to stay on the left while they move, players on the right of the tag do likewise. That's why you see them moving sequentially instead of amorphously. Also wtf at the pennies in a stream moving with autonomy, do pennies have some secret method of locomotion I'm unfamiliar with? I'm pretty sure inanimate objects lack autonomy while animate objects possess it. That's a terrible false equivalency. A better comparison would be flocking birds and how they follow simple rules to produce complex group behaviors. That'd be a model worth looking at because it better reflects the nature of the problem as opposed to trying to shoehorn a complex organic model into a static mathematical model. You can watch them move in straight lines, it's right there in video. You're right, people aren't robots. There's better ways to predict their movements than claiming 'it's all random', it's not. Their movements are goal driven, they follow simple rules, and the combination of the two produces complex behavior. And yet people are able to land their aoes in such a fashion that they regularly drop 5 people at a time with them. They do it every day across every server. They do it despite lag from high ping, despite having no knowledge of complex systems, despite aiming their aoes independently of any model. How on earth are they predicting random movements with such high precision? I'll let you in on a secret, it's because player movement isn't random. It's predicted by trends, if you know the trends you know where to place your aoes for best effect. I don't think anyone's arguing with you on the basics. -aoes have a target cap -players above the target cap in that aoe take no damage -players are selected for damage in accordance to their proximity to the center of the aoe Your model on how that damage is distributed across a zerg though is wrong, it's based on a false assumption which is why it's not seen functioning in game outside of very specific situations (large number of players stacking tightly in one spot with very little incoming spike damage). Even in the clip you posted 3/4 of the people weren't moving at all, they were standing still and using inconsistencies in the enemy aoe placement to soak the damage. That's just relying on the other group to place the centers of their aoes far enough apart that they select different targets. You can see 3-4 people taking all the damage and getting healed or ressed through it because they're not moving randomly, they're sitting in the aoes.

And when you go 3s further into that clip you see 4 people hit by the same aoes repeatedly until they go down, because they try to walk through it in a straight line. Because they are not moving stochastically.

if 5 players sit in an aoe they're each taking a hit per second. If they spread out so only 2 are being hit by the aoe we're seeing a 60% reduction in damage. The best way to disperse an aoe's damage is to just not stand in them. The second best way is to throw expendable bodies at the damage and hope to target cap enough of it. The dumbest way is to stack your players in one spot and hope the enemy group doesn't do enough damage to crack through. You posted a 5s clip of how 10 people can walk through a lava font, then ignored every aspect of my posts that you don't have an easy answer to. that's a pretty lackluster opener on blue's part, they fake twice and walk directly into a bomb before even trying to be offensive. They don't try to land a coordinated hit until 1:00, please bring this to NA lol And when they move across it in a straight line, or they're unable to move, or when there's only 5 potential targets in an aoe's radius? The aoe is ticking on the same person over and over, the damage is not dispersed. ...and? that's obvious man. it also carries the assumption that players are always going to be moving across fields in straight lines, they don't. They see the person's health in front of them start getting chunked and move out of the way before walking into the aoe. You're assuming dps are going to place their damage in positions that are easily walked through too rather than the dps coordinating a spike when and where they can stop the enemy group from moving out of it.

nah man, I'm just concerned for your health. You've had a hard on for me all week and I'm pretty sure you're supposed to see a doctor after like 12 hours? Maybe something's gotten lost in the sauce for you, your concept of how the targeting system works is flawed. You make wild assumptions about how players will fit your model but they're not confirmed in reality. This is a continuing trend I see in your posts, it's always some three page paper on a topic that assumes perfect conditions. -Players don't spread their aoes for maximum dispersive effect like your model suggests, they concentrate them in a single area to minimize the dispersive effect. This is true for the other side of that coin too, players won't stand in aoes to help disperse the aoe's damage-they'll avoid the aoes entirely. -Player movement isn't stochastic, they move with intention to complete a goal. Players follow trends, some are always a little ahead of the tag while others always lag behind. They certainly aren't spread perfectly equidistant from each other in any aoe. There isn't as likely a chance of a hit in one area as another, it's determined by how the players position themselves in response to both their group's movement and the opposing group's movements. -If your model were true to reality, players would stack in a single spot to strafe left and right while dumping defensive cooldowns. They don't do that because it doesn't work for longer than a few seconds unless you greatly outnumber the enemy group. Damage is still very high in gw2, the issue is that there are less people around who know how to use it. -I gave a whole summary on the last page for why removing target caps is asinine. -I don't own a guild, I'm just an officer in a guild with access 50gb of evtc files. I'm well aware of how the target cap system works and how to use it to best effect. That's how we can fight outnumbered while you struggle along. https://imgur.com/bEvvfIh If I'm wrong it should be easy to prove. You put up a clip of how damage is dispersed with a pulsing aoe against targets that are running through it, which is great. Trying to generalize how one specific movement pattern disperses damage to every fight between every group is less than great, it's naive as kitten. Here we have two outnumbered scenarios, in the first my group is half the size of a single enemy group. We don't spread our damage out among the 40 of them, we condense it in a single area to maximize the chances of landing lethal damage from multiple overlapping sources. The enemy group is a loose blob, which should maximize the dispersive effect according to your model. Instead, the players move sequentially because they're all following a single leader- when the person in front of them moves they follow. The damage does not get dispersed evenly because players have goals that drive their movements. This allows a single pulsing aoe to hit the same target repeatedly rather than dispersing at all. This is not the behavior you would see consistent with a stochastic model. The second clip is of our group fighting outnumbered against 3 smaller groups. This should be ideal for the three small groups standing right at their spawn because our group can only focus aoes on one location at a time, guaranteeing that 2/3rds of the enemy players are at no risk for damage. Ideal dispersion through having more players, right? According to your model, no one should be able to fight while significantly outnumbered because the dispersion of damage is too great an advantage. Here's real world proof along with written logic on why your theory is bad, please don't pop a blood vessel.

you have no video then? that's unfortunate I've posted in two threads this week, both times you jump in to bash me like you have little dog syndrome or something. I don't think the problem is on my end =/

Idk man, I haven't seen any videos of you going 10v30 yet =/

I'm all for it, I love it when people watch

Assumptions I'm not seeing covered on your napkin: -Individual players move with intention, they follow trends specific to each player. Some players are consistently ahead of the tag, some are consistently behind. It's always the same players. To test this you can check any logs for a night's run, if players behaved according to your model you'd see an even dispersion of damage resulting in very similar death/time ratios for every player. Instead you see that some players consistently have 3x the deaths of their peers over the course of months, or are always present at the top of the 'damage taken' list. -There's a 1s invulnerability window when a player goes down. They're stationary in aoes for that 1s and subtract from offensive target caps. This could be further expanded into the number of players dodging at any given time or using other methods to become invulnerable. This can even include players who are stunned or immobilized, forcing them to take up target caps with consecutive hits, reducing the amount of dispersion occuring. -Players move out of damage hot spots. They watch each other move out of aoes too since they can see each squad mate's health bars. Your model doesn't account for players actively avoiding damage rather than soaking it up with the target cap. If it were able to be abused like that the meta would be to stack everyone in a 180 radius spot and strafe back and forth while dumping defensive cooldowns. People don't do that because it doesn't work unless you greatly outnumber the number of players attacking you -Damage isn't randomly assigned. It's by proximity and aimed by humans, who will not place their aoes for maximal dispersive effect like your model suggests. They attempt to coordinate their aoes in a single spot hoping to generate downs by overlapping their effects in as tight an area as possible.

You're right, this has needlessly digressed. I'll put up a summary on why removing target caps is stupid. Gameplay reasons: -The entire game would shift to whoever hits first in large scale fights. Any 1 person would be capable of wiping 70 if they stand too close together. People stack up to build siege, enter/leave chokes like portals, or even just to kill lord npcs in towers and keeps. This can be easily achieved with stealth pushes and portal bombs. Literally anyone can stealth, walk into your map queue of people, and blow it up in <1s. -Removing the need for tight coordination between groups of players decreases the skill required to play this game mode overall. Logistical reasons: -The server load would increase dramatically and no one's going to pay for that. The game gets unstable with a 5 target cap as is. -Players would leave for other games en masse because teamwork and coordination would no longer be rewarded. There's less reason to stick around and form a community if you're punished for standing too close to one another. -The whole purpose behind the current system is ultimately to keep people playing and buying gems by forming interpersonal connections so they can compete in a cooperative setting. Smaller communities means less incentive to keep playing gw2 means less gem purchases for anet. -The entire trait and skill system would need to be overhauled. We'd go through years of wildly broken balance as people find exploits anet missed while they try to build an entirely new system from scratch. All of their data on trends and expectations from the last 9 years becomes worthless overnight. Logical reasons: -fighting 10v50 wouldn't become magically easier, if anything it would become even harder. The 50 will likely adjust to a cloud comp. With no reason to focus on builds that bring ranged, non-projectile aoes they're free to focus on skills that have high single target spike damage and pulls, allowing them to easily rip apart smaller groups. On the flip side, the smaller group is going from hitting 5 targets with their aoes to hitting 1-2 people due to the larger group spreading out, giving them even less potential for meaningful spike damage. -The game would devolve into 'who can cloud out and camp the enemy spawn point first'. That sounds awful -An advantage smaller groups have against a stack is that they can out-maneuver them. No one's going to chase down 5 people with 50 every time they leave spawn, it's boring for everyone involved. Right now a group of 5 can rotate to towers and camps to sneak them. That changes if people don't need to group up, as soon as you leave spawn they'll call for numbers and you'll get swarmed. Other fun bits from this post's replies: -Apparently it's hard for people to fight minionmancers because the minions will soak up all your damage in a 1v1? Why people aren't single targeting the necro or putting their aoes closer is still a mystery -The game at present is 'unfair' because people who talk to one another have an advantage. Grouping up with other players is hard when people don't like you -People think zergs are 70%+ support characters. This really baffles me

The best you can do is pulling up a stream from ... 9 months ago? JADE tags 3-4 nights a week during NA prime time, we have four active tags covering three time zones. We lose fights like dozens of times a week, that's what happens when you have >300 active members of varying experience. The difference is we log all the data and use sophisticated tools built by our players to parse it, then base comp and build decisions on real world findings. You should try it sometime. Still haven't seen any clips of you fighting 10v30 though, so what's your expertise founded on?

still salty man, that's unfortunate also tf is the g fight community? there's like 30 incels left on NA that want to make that a thing. I get that you want to pass around theoretical napkin math that has no basis in reality but if your ideas worked people would use them lol Edit: If anyone wants to see where justice learned how target caps work

Well, can't argue with that

How does it skew fairness exactly? Those players coordinated with each other. If you wanted to coordinate with other players, you could. You've chosen not to. You have every tool to make it fair at your disposal, instead you chose to not use them in favor of crying on the forums. The system's fair, you just aren't using it. How does 'whoever presses their skill first wins' make things more fair to you, does it require more skill to push a button first or to coordinate the efforts of 50 people? You, and those other players, should form up into groups. That's how the people that are grouped up got grouped up in the first place. Full squads didn't just appear in this game at launch and perpetually stay, they developed over time. Two years ago our group ran 5-10, now we're averaging 35-40. So if i'm understanding this, you only play 1 class and you only roam on that class but you somehow have the experience to dictate that a 9 year old game mode should receive a massive overhaul because... you can't make friends? This sounds a lot more like it's a you problem than a game problem man

If there's 5 of you you can hit 10 np. You can hit 20 np so long as you get a good opening bomb off. It's stupid to think you should be able to hit 50 though. The 50 people who put time into their classes are meaningless, right? I mean, only your time has value. I was fighting 45v70 on friday, we ended the night with a 1.34 kdr. If you need 20 to fight 20 that's on you If all you're interested in is small scale combat, try pvp. There's less people on open world builds in green armor though I'm not forcing anything, i'm telling you the reality of the situation. The game is ran by a company that wants to be profitable, profit is gained from long time players buying gems for cosmetics, forcing players to form social groups and pursue long term goals keeps them playing. They can absolutely build the game's mechanics to support that. That's kind of the point.

I've showed you mine. can you do the same? A skill that's capped at 5 targets would in fact "magically" do 4x the damage against 20 with the target cap removed. I thought you prided yourself on your math? It's not favorable for people stack, at all, if the entire stack can get deleted in 1s. Who cares if you can get 10x the boons and healing out if your group can get nuked by a single player faster than your group has time to react. Stealth pushes and portals would be guaranteed map queue wipes. Obviously target caps favor big groups, this is a game mode that caters to forming social connections because that's how you keep people playing and paying. Anet couldn't care less if a single player leaves because they can't form social connections, that's not their bread and butter man. Do you understand that it's also unfair for 1 person to reliably wipe 50? You seem to think it's only fair if 1 can wipe 50, but those 50 grouped up and put time into coordinating with one another, time that's invalidated completely by removing target caps. If they don't adjust to the new meta those 50 people will happily just find a new game where their coordination is rewarded. Then the game loses players which is less people for you to fight and less money in anet's pocket. There are real-world considerations that outweigh your desire to fight 'fairly' against 50 people. Whining that you can't do it all on your own because the game is 'unfair' to single players is childish af If you want to fight 50 people, find 49 friends who feel the same way and group up. That's how the game works lol No, most meta groups are 40% support, 40% dps, 20% utility. Pug groups are whoever was around and bored. I don't know what you're fighting that would run 70% supports, i think it's more likely that your damage is low so you think anyone who isn't full glass must be an unkillable support character. You're under the impression that the meta would change so 20 coordinated people can take down 50 coordinated people. I'm telling you, based on years of experience and tb of data, that it'd only take 1 player to kill 50 coordinated players faster than they could react any time they stacked up. The game mode's fight structure would entirely collapse. There would be no stacking, at all. Not on lords in keeps, not while building siege, not while moving through portals, none. Groups would spread out in 600-1200 range amorphous blobs to benefit from 600 radius support skills while minimizing incoming aoe damage. They'd build for stealth ressing and pulling downed players. They'd build for ranged single target spike damage and pulls to yank people in. They would absolutely wreck any smaller groups by picking them apart instead of carpet bombing. This is not the outcome you're looking for if you want to make it easier to fight large groups. The best suggestion i've seen in this thread is making support skills 5 target and damage skills 10 target. The problem with this is that everyone would just run as much damage/CC as they could and overwhelm the support players. A better solution would be making current 5 target damage skills that have no other effects 10 target, that would only increase potential damage output without increasing potential strip/CC output. This benefits groups that tightly coordinate their bomb more than anyone else.

I've given examples of how 2 classes could wipe 50 stacked players in the blink of an eye without target caps. It's something almost every class could do if target caps were removed. It would be the end of people stacking up entirely because stacking = mass deletion. It's a game mode that supports everything from 1v1s to 70v70v70. If you can't fight 70 people with your 1, how does it make sense to you that the game should cater to your 1 vs their 70? Wouldn't it make far more sense for you to group up with 69 other players so you can get an 'even' fight? Otherwise you're kinda saying your enjoyment as a single player that doesn't want to interact with other players is more important than the enjoyment of 70 other people who've chosen to play together which is a little conceited right? Do you not understand that removing target caps would remove the ability of people to 'play the way they want to play'? It would force them to play in a cloud. That wouldn't favor you and would make it significantly harder for you to roam at all It already is a part of the decision in playing with a coordinated group? Most groups have their own composition worked out, the reason people don't run a coordinated 50 person cloud right now is because it's less effective against good groups that stack and more effective against small groups of pugs. No one gives a kitten about fighting small groups of pugs because you're going to run them over either way with the current system. If the coordinated groups are forced into clouding though the small groups may as well find a new game since there won't be any competing. You can already single out and finish individuals in a large group, use mist form or literally any other invuln/stealth mechanic available to do it. You may not get away after you get the stomp but removing target caps doesn't help you there in any way. If that group is a cloud or a ball makes no difference, they'll still be able to res any single target downs you generate but you'll be far less likely to kill them and get away if it's 50 people focusing on single target damage and pulls rather than builds that can carpet bomb. You're misunderstanding the scale for how much damage a single person can put out if they know what they're doing. You could wipe an entire map queue with literally a single button press in 1 second. If you hit them from stealth that's GG. If they cleanse or mitigate the damage it's not a problem because you only pressed 1 button. You can just press the same button again. Guardians can do it 8 times in a row if they want. Who gives a kitten if they only kill 20 with the first button press, they can wipe another 20 a second later. Stacking would be dead without target caps. The advantage a single player has against a zerg is that the zerg won't split into 5 groups of 10 to hunt you down, they don't give a kitten about chasing 1 player around, it's a waste of time. That's your biggest advantage as a single player right now, you can rotate around the map and pick your fights when they're favorable to you because a map only holds 70 people, if 50 of them are focused on a tower in one corner of the map there's only 20 other players spread out across the rest of the map to stop you from doing w/e. If the meta is to spread out so your map queue doesn't get popped by a single player, there's more people available to chase you down and delete you. You think you'd rather fight against a map filled with people using builds that excel in destroying single targets? I feel like there's a ton of people with your mindset who pick off stragglers that are trying to get back to their group and think 'ah yes, zerglings are terrible and they only get carried by numbers.' They're not terrible, they're using builds that are optimized to fight 70 people. They're not running condi cleanse, they're not running (m)any stun breaks or mobility tools, they're not running builds that can reset fights infinitely until their burst lands. Removing target caps forces those players to run builds that are optimized to delete w/e special nonsense you're solo roaming on. Why on earth do you think 50 people would stop to res their teammate so you can bomb them if instead they can just single target focus you from 1200 range and rally their downed teammate instead? They're still going to massively outnumber you, they'll just be doing it on builds that are even less favorable for you to fight. This is pure ignorance, you don't have the skill required to blow up a map queue were target caps removed. There are literally hundreds of people out there who do.

It means you're functioning as part of a unit, you might be playing a class with spike damage while others are playing classes that are good at finishing downs. Together you're more effective. This is kinda the basis of a team oriented game? So you have little experience but a ton of opinions, valuable insight for sure. You've heard of dunning-kruger? Were you fighting an organized group? After 1h on staff ele about the only thing you're capable of doing well is dropping meteor shower. It's a high value skill sure, but used poorly or timed poorly it's worthless. It's very strong if you're fighting in a cloud while defending structures though if that's your idea of zerg fighting. This a great showcase for your lack of experience in big fights. You feel like the combat mechanics are impossible to take advantage of because you don't know how to do it. There's different metrics, like you're not going to try and interrupt a single player's heal skill during a zerg fight, but if you don't get stab up at the right time 4 of your teammates are going to explode on push. You don't drop your bomb at the right time in a coordinated spike, your group doesn't generate downs. What zerg is focused entirely on offense? At a minimum 40% of every squad is made up of support characters, generally in minstrels lol Do you dedicate 40% of your roaming builds to defensive choices? They will absolutely get harder to deal with. Zergs are optimized to carpet bomb areas right now because that's the meta. Remove target caps and the meta changes, those zergs will optimize themselves to rip apart any elite solo roamers while they spread out more. Instead of ranged aoe skills having the highest priority in builds, it'd be pulls and single target spike damage that are favored. I don't know why so many people in this thread believe 'oh remove the target caps and i'll farm the big groups of bad players'. No, they'll just bring builds that are better at blowing your kitten up and they'll still outnumber you 30 to 1 lol They wouldn't stack in one spot, but they'd still group up and coordinate sure. I don't see how this is something that's favorable to you or any other small groups of players though Is that game named gw2? If not you're comparing apples to oranges. gw2 isn't designed to function without target caps My point is that balance decisions take years to stabilize. The game would be dead in the water before it could stabilize from a change as monumental as removing target caps.

People who are only fighting 5v10 have no idea what kind of numbers are possible. A DH in one of our runs last month pulled 16.8m damage over 2h. That's with a 5 person target cap. 168m damage with no target cap, conservatively, or 23k damage each second. Removing target caps would unhinge this game. People running in zergs know that sometimes you'll get unlucky. You lose people on enemy bombs that there is simply no avoiding. They know how to maneuver to cover their downs, how much incoming damage is acceptable, and how long they have to recover before the other group can bomb again. There's a skill to it that's similar to what's needed in small scale outnumbered roaming, which is something you seem to play down only because (i'm assuming) you've never experienced it. You need to spend so much time avoiding damage that you can't effectively finish the larger group's downed players before they can res them. I'm very familiar with this, i tagged with 45 vs 70 on friday and had a difficult time finishing the downs effectively despite us out-damaging the other server on almost every fight. This wouldn't matter in the slightest though if the target cap were removed because these scenarios would cease to exist. No one would stack, at all. You would still be outnumbered, but it would be a cloud that's focused on pulling you. That would be even more difficult to fight outnumbered than the current boon ball meta because it wouldn't matter how coordinated your small group is, you're not going to have an answer for being stripped and pulled into a cloud over and over. It's not like big guilds would go away and you could roam supreme, it'd just be your 5 getting harried across a map by a coordinated group of 30 in a cloud. You talk about how it'd be easy to adjust any problematic traits too, but I don't think you understand the complexity of what you're suggesting. This kind of change would invalidate any data anet's collected over 9 years on how to balance things. Hundreds of millions of data points, worthless. Each skill would have to be assessed individually and they would still, for certain, miss things. We'd go through literally years of wildly unbalanced gameplay, hemorrhaging players the entire time. As far as fighting goes, support aoe caps and enemy target caps are the only reason to group up tightly in a ball. Without aoe caps those same players would group up in a new configuration that'd adjust to the meta, it absolutely won't be one that's favorable for smaller groups to fight. The biggest advantage a smaller group has against a bigger group right now is that the bigger group likely won't single out individuals, instead relying on carpet bombing. That changes when the bigger group is a cloud. Right now the bigger groups stay tight, meaning you have room to maneuver around them. In a cloud they'd just surround you and pick you apart. Right now large groups are optimized to fight other large groups, with no target cap they'll be optimized to rip apart any small groups of 5 they come across. This is a lose-lose man lol

Alright, so i've got a bit of time. Hopefully this satisfies your 'i'm good and you're not so your facts aren't relevent' attitude. Removing target caps is a terrible idea. As Infusion pointed out above you have no idea what kind of damage people are capable of putting out because you don't use the tracking tools available. From what I can gather in your posts you think removing the target cap will allow you to fight massively outnumbered. Here's the thing, if targets caps are removed there's no incentive for people to group up in the first place while fighting. They'll spread out. You'll still be outnumbered 50 to 1, only now your skills will just hit 1-3 of them at a time because they're not going to stack up like morons. All 50 of them will still be able to focus on you though np. If people were to continue stacking all it would take is 1s for any guardian to wipe an entire map queue via permeating wrath (with 1 button press you could apply max stacks, 1500 burning, >200k damage per target with 0 condition damage investment). 1 Berserker could engage with their LB burst followed by 2 arc dividers and boom 50 bags. You think necros summoning 6 minons is bad, wait until they can each summon 50. It'd take all of a week for the meta to shift entirely away from stacking to ranged damage + pulls only. 'Fights' wouldn't even be a thing, you'll have groups of 35 spawn camping in a cloud. You won't be able to leave the spawn as a single player with 30 people targeting each individual as they try to get out. If you try to group up, see above. Anyone who manages to stealth through will get hunted down by 10 people, good luck even taking a camp in those conditions. The single biggest advantage a solo player has against a blob is that the blob can't be everywhere on a map at any given time. A cloud can though.