STIHL.2489

Oh .. yah.. that.. well a bit back.. during the idea selling DLC, I made a note that people calling Mountgate P2W made me laugh... and you know.. people just HAD to disagree with me. .. and lo here we are. Which kinda answers your above question.

Yes.. I did notice that.. similarity between Wildstar and HoT. I also noticed Anet going "Oh kitten, we are sorry about that stupid Hardcore thing we tried, silly us,, here is a whole expansion of casual friendly stuff for you to enjoy called PoF, please forgive our stupid mistake" Cause they aren't developing pvp (2v2) new raids etc. And there where no negative reactions to pof absolutely. It's easy to miss the things you don't want to see I guess. Very true, I noticed a lot of people making complainants about PoF, in fact.. maybe more then fussed about HoT, but after HoT their numbers tanked like a lead balloon, and now after PoF the numbers are coming back, as such the people that loved HoT and hated PoF are not really their profit demographic. Sometimes you gotta pick your battles, and when it comes to MMO's, if you want to stay alive, you side with the people that are willing to pay for their hobby. Keep in mind, Casuals are not going to come to the forms in mass to make demands, they are casual simply because they do not have that kind of time to waste on a game, they will simply quietly stop playing and move on. Anet and many other developers would do well to understand that.

Cause they stopped developing Raids... PoF having more casual friend stuff to enjoy is arguable. Given you think "Housing" is casual content, it's not a discussion I would have with you about what is casual friendly content.

Glad you asked. See, the idea here is "Are Raids Profitable", which is a point regarding their access, and keeping them Niche content. The thing here is that Anet uses a system where they sell unrelated cosmetic items and various consumables/bank space in the store and then use the sales money from those items to fund development of other parts of the game. This making it so that is is very hard to track what retains players and keeps sales up. IE: It's near impossible to see what content is in fact profitable. Now I argued that this is the worst way to fund game development, if they sold additional content individually they would know what sells among their population and could focus on that. To understand this, they already have several existing dungeons in the core game of GW2, all linked to the Personal Story. These would remain free and part of the core game, then they would then make additional Dungeons and sell them Individually. if they sold well enough (IE: Self funded their own development) they would make and sell more of them. There was a bit of dissent on this topic and mu opponents brought up the outrage regarding Mount Skin, and the like (IE: Players don't like spending money. and wanty everything for free. imagine that).. but, if they sold content directly, they would not need to be as aggressive in how they sold cosmetics in the store, in fact, they could remove store cosmetics from the game overall, and just put them directly in the Content itself, so players could buy say a World Map, or a Dungeon, or Fractal Map, that unlocked a new skin for each mount, or a special custom weapon set, maybe a unique mask style, etc.. Thus making it so players had to play the game for their pretty items, and not just open their wallets. But.. you know.. if I said anything there are a whole group of people on this forum that would argue and disagree with me no matter what.

This is so wrong it;s not even funny.. Not only did they call the Mount Skins P2W, you make it seem like this game didn't have BLC in the game since the start (Which are directly loot boxes, and that is just stating the obvious), Black Lion Weapon Skins, anyone? Not to mention that a vast number of other purely cosmetic stuff in the store is also sold in RNG Loot Box Style, which have been a staple since the Start like Dye Packs, Minis, etc. So, again the ridiculousness of Mount Gate, will never be lost on me, because mount skins were just like the other existing RNG of the Store... and yes.. they called it P2W, I think I i have seen them still cal it P2W. For some one asking others to refrain from lying often, the amount of stretching you do here to fit your agenda is insane. Mount skins were absolutely NOT called pay to win. Again.. you seem to forget, that I was there, yes they were, and for quite some time after as well. Reilly showed me how worthless the like P2W had become. in fact Mount gate killed any P2W cries for me. So it's your word against mine and most other peoples who have posted so far since we were "all there". Well that and the logical fallacy that mounts skins have any bearing on any type of "winning" as well as that the, by now remedied, rng acquisition method actually would make sense logically to have aggravated people. Given that some people have shown to have very tinted glasses in this discussion.. But just so we are clear, they did not change anything, they simply said, "We need to do this to make money,.. how would you like to be fleeced?" and after some consideration, they went with the High Dollar packs with Little to no RNG. Which is what Mount Skins are at now. and none of any of that is pay to win. I agree totally.. didn't stop people from calling it such tho. (Which was my whole point. in case you missed that) Which you have no yet in any way proven, not even by basic logic which I had pointed out. What did you say earlier? That's "the pot calling the kettle black" right there.This whole topic has been pots and kettles.. did you just get that now?

Yes.. I did notice that.. similarity between Wildstar and HoT. I also noticed Anet going "Oh shit, we are sorry about that stupid Hardcore thing we tried, silly us,, here is a whole expansion of casual friendly stuff for you to enjoy called PoF, please forgive our stupid mistake"

This is so wrong it;s not even funny.. Not only did they call the Mount Skins P2W, you make it seem like this game didn't have BLC in the game since the start (Which are directly loot boxes, and that is just stating the obvious), Black Lion Weapon Skins, anyone? Not to mention that a vast number of other purely cosmetic stuff in the store is also sold in RNG Loot Box Style, which have been a staple since the Start like Dye Packs, Minis, etc. So, again the ridiculousness of Mount Gate, will never be lost on me, because mount skins were just like the other existing RNG of the Store... and yes.. they called it P2W, I think I i have seen them still cal it P2W. For some one asking others to refrain from lying often, the amount of stretching you do here to fit your agenda is insane. Mount skins were absolutely NOT called pay to win. Again.. you seem to forget, that I was there, yes they were, and for quite some time after as well. Reilly showed me how worthless the like P2W had become. in fact Mount gate killed any P2W cries for me. So it's your word against mine and most other peoples who have posted so far since we were "all there". Well that and the logical fallacy that mounts skins have any bearing on any type of "winning" as well as that the, by now remedied, rng acquisition method actually would make sense logically to have aggravated people. Given that some people have shown to have very tinted glasses in this discussion.. But just so we are clear, they did not change anything, they simply said, "We need to do this to make money,.. how would you like to be fleeced?" and after some consideration, they went with the High Dollar packs with Little to no RNG. Which is what Mount Skins are at now. and none of any of that is pay to win.I agree totally.. didn't stop people from calling it such tho. (Which was my whole point. in case you missed that)

This is so wrong it;s not even funny.. Not only did they call the Mount Skins P2W, you make it seem like this game didn't have BLC in the game since the start (Which are directly loot boxes, and that is just stating the obvious), Black Lion Weapon Skins, anyone? Not to mention that a vast number of other purely cosmetic stuff in the store is also sold in RNG Loot Box Style, which have been a staple since the Start like Dye Packs, Minis, etc. So, again the ridiculousness of Mount Gate, will never be lost on me, because mount skins were just like the other existing RNG of the Store... and yes.. they called it P2W, I think I i have seen them still cal it P2W. For some one asking others to refrain from lying often, the amount of stretching you do here to fit your agenda is insane. Mount skins were absolutely NOT called pay to win. Again.. you seem to forget, that I was there, yes they were, and for quite some time after as well. Reilly showed me how worthless the like P2W had become. in fact Mount gate killed any P2W cries for me. Pics or it didn't happenGiven @maddoctor.2738 responses. pics don't work either.

This is so wrong it;s not even funny.. Not only did they call the Mount Skins P2W, you make it seem like this game didn't have BLC in the game since the start (Which are directly loot boxes, and that is just stating the obvious), Black Lion Weapon Skins, anyone? Not to mention that a vast number of other purely cosmetic stuff in the store is also sold in RNG Loot Box Style, which have been a staple since the Start like Dye Packs, Minis, etc. So, again the ridiculousness of Mount Gate, will never be lost on me, because mount skins were just like the other existing RNG of the Store... and yes.. they called it P2W, I think I i have seen them still cal it P2W. For some one asking others to refrain from lying often, the amount of stretching you do here to fit your agenda is insane. Mount skins were absolutely NOT called pay to win. Again.. you seem to forget, that I was there, yes they were, and for quite some time after as well. Reilly showed me how worthless the like P2W had become. in fact Mount gate killed any P2W cries for me. So it's your word against mine and most other peoples who have posted so far since we were "all there". Well that and the logical fallacy that mounts skins have any bearing on any type of "winning" as well as that the, by now remedied, rng acquisition method actually would make sense logically to have aggravated people.Given that some people have shown to have very tinted glasses in this discussion.. But just so we are clear, they did not change anything, they simply said, "We need to do this to make money,.. how would you like to be fleeced?" and after some consideration, they went with the High Dollar packs with Little to no RNG. Which is what Mount Skins are at now.

I don't see anything in there about marketing the game for hardcore players and raids. So try again. Just so we are clear.. You missed this under the first link: When I said " "You totally did not see the: Well if you missed that, I don't see a point in trying again, since you turned a total blind eye to what you were given.

This is so wrong it;s not even funny.. Not only did they call the Mount Skins P2W, you make it seem like this game didn't have BLC in the game since the start (Which are directly loot boxes, and that is just stating the obvious), Black Lion Weapon Skins, anyone? Not to mention that a vast number of other purely cosmetic stuff in the store is also sold in RNG Loot Box Style, which have been a staple since the Start like Dye Packs, Minis, etc. So, again the ridiculousness of Mount Gate, will never be lost on me, because mount skins were just like the other existing RNG of the Store... and yes.. they called it P2W, I think I i have seen them still cal it P2W. For some one asking others to refrain from lying often, the amount of stretching you do here to fit your agenda is insane. Mount skins were absolutely NOT called pay to win. Again.. you seem to forget, that I was there, yes they were, and for quite some time after as well. Reilly showed me how worthless the like P2W had become. in fact Mount gate killed any P2W cries for me.

For example, Wildstar had some of the best housing system in an mmorpg. I guess that so much asked for casual feature didn't save the game :( Nope.. not at all. Giving a bunch of pointless grind content o players that you treat like second class citizens while you dolt upon your raiders the best stuff ever, is not going to endear casuals to your game. This is a lesson GW2 should pay attention to as well, when it thinks it's putting out "Casual" content. .I hope my My point is made... but even if I posted other links, I going to guess you will just stick you head in the sand and ignore all that.. because it does not agree with what you want to be true. I can't find too many links.. because you know.. the game that was marketed as Hardcore died.. so they took down their own links. But you know.. it was common knowledge that it was a hardcore's game. The fact that you are even questioning this is laughable. And the fact that you think a "House" is casual.. is insulting. I mean like, really, dude, can you show you have no idea what a casual even is when you say things like "Oh it has housing it must be for casuals" like What.. really.. hardcore players don't use housing? Painfully laughable.

This is so wrong it;s not even funny.. Not only did they call the Mount Skins P2W, you make it seem like this game didn't have BLC in the game since the start (Which are directly loot boxes, and that is just stating the obvious), Black Lion Weapon Skins, anyone? Not to mention that a vast number of other purely cosmetic stuff in the store is also sold in RNG Loot Box Style, which have been a staple since the Start like Dye Packs, Minis, etc. So, again the ridiculousness of Mount Gate, will never be lost on me, because mount skins were just like the other existing RNG of the Store... and yes.. they called it P2W, I think I i have seen them still cal it P2W. I laughed myself to the high heavens over that, the absurdity of it was hilarious, I still can't help but to laugh now. Just like now, people thinking that Raids would self fund when another of NcSofts games, Wildstar, which was marketed as a Hardcore raid game, just shut down. Truth is, hard content does not sell, that is why Riaders in this game need casuals to fund their content. Honestly, I think players would rather just buy more of the content they want to play, then deal with buying cosmetics and seeing their money go into developing content they will never touch and might even hate. In fact if they took this approach, WvW might get the Dev Time is so desperately needs.

Edit:Maybe it's the language barrier since I'm not a native english speaker. I'll try it again: Raids are the content that are keeping me playing the game. Without raids I wouldn't be here and I wouldn't be spending any amount of money. Again, let me break this down for you. You left after raids came out, Raids had been a part of this game when you chose to leave, and you chose to leave because you could not make progress doing raids. You did not go out and join a Raid training guild (Which were already available by the end of the first month Raids went live, if not sooner, so you left after they were available)You did not find a new static group to run with because you loved the content and wanted to do it.You did not try to Pug your way into getting good at raids, or even start your own LFM's. In short you did none of the things that raiders tell other people to do to get into raids. You Left the game. As Irony would have it.. you left because you could not do raids. Well, I am sure you were not alone in that, but I am going to wager there were a lot more people that didn't have a circle of friends to be there for them to return to. Truth is, if your friends had not come back to work with you and walk with you though raids you never would have come back, , and by your own admission not being able to do raids would have been the very reason why you left. The Irony will never escape me. You are living proof they should have put in an easy mode, for all he players like you that want to do raids, but unlike you, don't have an existing group of friends to walk them through the content. When you wonder if people have left over not being able to do raids.. well.. you left. Great discussion. Thanks for being the living embodiment of my point and stand, even if you will never admit it.

People can see the truth.. and not accept it. But I stand by what I said, if Raids were profitable standalone, games like Wildstar would not have shut down. As I said before they are a dinosaur of the past, something that should have gone away with Kill Stealing, and Ninja Looting, and are about as welcome in modern MMO's as either of those things. Raids are simply not good content, they do not build community, they do not foster a better gaming community, they divide the game into raiders and non-raiders, and this is simply not a good thing for an MMO. They might work if they were made more inclusive like Fractals, bit, in their current set up, they will not profit this game, not in any means.

What's funny, is that I suggested this a long time ago.. Raiders cried to the high heavens that they should not do this.. because they knew their content would never be made with that payment plan. But I support this 100%, YES PLEASE! sell the Living Stories (Your Hated Beetles), sell the New World Maps with their special gear, Sell the Elite Specs, Sell the Mastery Lines, Make all Fractals past T2 paid for content only, and sell additional Fractal maps Make and Sell new WvW maps Make and Sell New PvP maps, Make and sell additional Reward Tracks for PvP Content! Make and Sell new Dungeons Make and Sell New RaidsSell all those things separate from each other, Throw in some Special Seasonal events in there too.. like some kind of Spring revival event, Paid Only. Piecemeal the game.. GW2 would not be the first game to do this.. and then build and develop what sells. YAH BABY! MAKE THIS HAPPEN.. I would even come back if they did this.. just so I could watch your raids die. Wanna know something.. a ways back, I even made a poll on this very subject.. wanna guess what took the most votes (here is a hint, it was not Raids). This wouldn't just kill raids, it would literally kill the entire game singlehandedly. Again, others games have done this with much success, spare me the doom and gloom. So let me get this right.. players will get outraged for not being charged for the development of content they don't play.. amazing. I find it hilarious that after the notorious Mount gate as it was called, happened that players would be offended that they are no longer being gulled into funding parts of the game they may hate and wish was never made though buying things like Mount Skins and could just buy and support the development of the content that they want to play. Will these kinds of wonders never cease. to amaze and amuse me. The fact that players called Mount Skins P2W still makes me chuckle even to this day. The hilarity of that event has not dulled with the passage of time. I cannot fathom what the Executive team must think of "Mount Gate".. I hope they laugh about the absurdity of it as much as I do. But.. hey.. I am kinda reminded of a Quote that was Attributed to P.T Barnum.

What's funny, is that I suggested this a long time ago.. Raiders cried to the high heavens that they should not do this.. because they knew their content would never be made with that payment plan. But I support this 100%, YES PLEASE! sell the Living Stories (Your Hated Beetles), sell the New World Maps with their special gear, Sell the Elite Specs, Sell the Mastery Lines, Make all Fractals past T2 paid for content only, and sell additional Fractal maps Make and Sell new WvW maps Make and Sell New PvP maps, Make and sell additional Reward Tracks for PvP Content! Make and Sell new Dungeons Make and Sell New RaidsSell all those things separate from each other, Throw in some Special Seasonal events in there too.. like some kind of Spring revival event, Paid Only.Piecemeal the game.. GW2 would not be the first game to do this.. and then build and develop what sells. YAH BABY! MAKE THIS HAPPEN.. I would even come back if they did this.. just so I could watch your raids die. Wanna know something.. a ways back, I even made a poll on this very subject.. wanna guess what took the most votes (here is a hint, it was not Raids).

This is silly and assumes that these raiders only play Raids and no other parts of the game. Yup silly.. almost as silly as assuming that they would only buy the expansion for the raids, I do so love how you shot down your own point of their profitability.

No, I read that perfectly.. now maybe you might want to read your own words.. and then think "Hey, what about people that don't already belong to a clique of raiders" .. hum they would be exactly like you were.. but with no returning friends Now hard to see the reality.. when you open your own eyes. But feel free to keep the blinders on.. my point is done with you.

Raids mean expansion sales just to access them. This only applies to the <10% of the players that want to raid, and would mean a little less then jack squat to their overall sales. That still makes Raids more -actually- profitable than Fractals, WVW or PVP. At least to Raid you need to buy an expansion, regardless of the number. To play the others you need nothing, you can play them as a cheap free player without ever giving anything to Anet.Not at all, if there was any truth to that, they could sell raids stand alone and they would self fund.. and we both know this is not true at all. As such, they must be loosing money making raids. Ponder that for a while before you just cry that I am wrong and throw out some unfounded hackneyed reason why you think that is not true.

Wrong! I was browsing the german subforum on a daily basis - I am one of the more active poster there out of maybe 20 peeps - and looking for raid groups that could have fit for me. The thing with some friends was just very lucky but logical consequence due to both sites looking after getting into raids.With the amount of training discords now and with me reading the forums & reddit I would have been back as well becaus there is a semi-reasonable approach of players bringing into the content. Oh please.. lets spare the deception... the content didn't bring you in or retain you, you left when it was put in . YOU LEFT WHEN RAIDS WERE PUT IN And you didn't come back for them.. truth is, no matter how much you try to play it otherwise The ONLY reason you are playing today, is because your friends are playing. NO OTHER REASON You will do content you hate because they are doing it.. You know it, I know it, and reality is, it's not raids, roller beetles, or anything else as to why you are here today, , it's your friends, and when they leave, you will leave with them.. I'd say we are done now.. but, I don't think you want to admit the truth, even when you know it.

Raids mean expansion sales just to access them. This only applies to the <10% of the players that want to raid, and would mean a little less then jack squat to their overall sales. and exist.. sure... after all Dungeons Exist.. they are already in the game.. thus.. they exist. Not sure what your point was, when the reality is, Raids didn't keep you either, you're fiends did.. and when they leave again.. so will you.. raids or no raids.

No, I wouldn't because I would have left the game. When Heart of Thorns was released after a very long content drought I've seen it as Anet's last chance to convince me of GW2. I played the story, the maps several times, the new fractal system with levelling to 100 and tried raids. I left again 1 or 2 months after release because there hasn't been anything left in the game that interested me besides raids but I was not motivated to look for a static. When I came back it was the same picture but luckily friends of mine were also playing again and tried raids. I joined them and could make progress. I'm enjoying raiding till that day compared with open world breaks and sometimes daily fractals. Without raids I wouldn't be here. Without my Friends coming back to play, It's that simple. Fixed that for you. See, For anyone that is wondering, this poster just made it clear that Raids did not retain them, even with their introduction, and the supposedly harder/better content of HoT, they still left the game. The ONLY thing that retained this player was their friends playing again.. not raids, not convoluted HoT maps, not Meta Events, not Fractals, not any content in any form.... their friends... and ONLY their friends. In short.. if your fiends had not come back to play, you would not have been here. Raids had nothing to do with it, it's that simple. LOL.. I see you never heard of the NGE, if you really think an MMO would not cling to a mistake. Of course there are those example but please show me the exact proof that raids are a dead horse in GW2. There's absolutely zero sign for such an assumption because they are actively played every day. And since NCSoft earning report numbers are very solid for GW2 I still don't see any tiny bit of the picture you want to paint.You make it sound like player numbers matters, or that participation is important.. Dungeons were also played all the time. with actual real PUG groups, there was always LFG's for many of the dungeons, AC, TA, CoF, were very common, and these were real PUG's, not sellers, where even filthy casual like myself could very easy get several thousand tokens, not only that, they were linked to all the Gen 1 Legendary Weapons, yet they were canceled . Truth is, you have no idea why Raids are still around, they didn't even retain you, only your friends did that, and their existence is not a measurement of their success or activity, but simply because someone in a position of control is keeping them around for reasons you know nothing about.

Go have a look at raid squads during Xera, before Cairn & Deimos fights, in W5 or W6. People are fully geared with different gliders and mount skins. Those people are also spending gems & money to Anet (or: NCSoft) and they are playing raids. You don't want to deny that these players have their rights to exist in the game as well as they are a part of the income, do you? Everyone in my raid guilds has spent money to the game. You would have bought that with or without raids being in the game.. come off it. LOL.. I see you never heard of the NGE, if you really think an MMO would not cling to a mistake.

Funny you say this.. I have since abandoned this game for a phone game.. how ironic. Wonder how many others on here have also long since left the game, raiders included, as over half the people that used to send me hate mail about my stance against raids in game admitted they no longer play. So.. yah.. keep dreaming that Raids are profitable. Anet stopped having PvP tournaments with cash prizes real quick when it was clear PvP wasn't getting the traction to justify the investment. If raids weren't meeting population expectations based on how much it costs to develop them they would have already dropped them by now. Unlike the ESport venture they tried with sPvP, which they could directly see both the internal player investment, and outside interest/influence, the other parts of the game are funded basically by a crowed funded system where people buy stuff from the store and they use that to fund the game. Hence why regardless that their ESport venture failing hard, sPvP is not only still around, it is getting updates. In fact, you could not be more off your mark if you tried. You used Mounts, but glider skins were also a big sale item, as you can look around and see that almost everyone you meet has a custom one , I could go on about Inventory space, Dyes, Weapon Skins (which are very popular), those mini-pet things that almost everyone has, which are both store and game items.. there are a slew of items they sell that have been keeping this game going for years before mount skins came around.. Raids on the other hand, are not profitable at all, as there is not a single thing about them to market in the store, or to the people that do them. Please refrain from the personal insults and taking about something you know nothing about, as unless you have access to my account directly, you have zero idea how much hate mail I got, and if you paid any attention to these forums, every regular in this topic knows of me far more then they know of you.