Rinagal.9235

Argument is a tool to convince opposite side of discussion, not the purpose itself. Main point is "we want to be able to get legendary armor in game mode we enjoy", not the "we want to fix every injustice in this game". Defend our personal interest is the purpose we try to achieve, justice is one of tools we use for it. Because of it WvW rewards topic isn't a point of disscucion, but as i said, i doubt anyone from those who asks for OW legendary armor oppose idea of improving WvW rewards or would use it for extortion. Being able to get legendary armor in game mode i like is totaly my personal interest, as it is a sign of some game design philosophies switching in directions that appeal me. Though, i don't plan to craft it, it's true, as i have more rational uses for my resources. However i don't want other players like me to go through raids and WvW like i did in order to get legendary armor, as i didn't enjoy my time there. And i believe forcing players into content they don't enjoy isn't a good thing.

I like how many people here think if they will just say "No, it's not", it will somehow be a valid argument in discussion while cutting out half of opponents post to conviniently ignore all inconvinient parts of it. It was exactly what i did, before i wrote my post. "A straw man argument is a misrepresentation of an opinion or viewpoint, designed to be as easy as possible to refute. Just as a person made of straw would be easier to fight with than a real human, a straw man argument is easy to knock to the ground." You generalised some group of people, took that "gimme" from someone without even quoting who said it, while ignoring any opinion that differed from it, and then started to criticise this "gimme" because it is easy.

You whole argument is whataboutism. Yes, WvW has bad GpH rate, or bad reward structure in general, you can create topics about it and believe me there will be no OW players saying: "I am not opposed to better rewards for WvW, as long as OW has legedary armor." We're not here fighing for social justice trying to fix every wrong in the world, but to defend our own interests, like every normal person do. If every person that thinks something isn't right will start to come to us and say: "Hey, open worlders, fix that unfairness for me and then you can have your legendary armor", we will never get anywhere.

It classified as a strawman argument what you have been doing here, by taking some convinient points some people have said here to exaggerate and attacke them. Specifics of how OW legendary armor should be implemented is out of matter right now, it will just get whole disscusiion farther from relevant points and is just another way to shut down discussion. So far in this topic i've only seen one post saying it should be done same way as Champion's Regalia had been done, the most common opinion is, though, that it should be comparable to other ways of acquiring legendary armor, in the sense that it have to have gold/material sink, timegate aspect to it and certain level of dedication. Any tradeoffs are completely pointless as it's not up to you, or me, or anyone else in this topic to decide what would be the exact requirements for it. So i suggest you to stop asking people how many bazillions gift of exploration would be required for one piece of legendary armor, as it serve no good purpose.

It wasn't meant to be in the first place, since strikes are basically same raids by design with only minor differencies like: being smaller locations with only one boss encounter, based on personal story assets to reduce production cost, different reward structure. It's still the same 10-man group instanced content with almost 100% (in case of strikes it's 100%) focus on boss encounters.

I'm aware of low gold per hour rate in WvW, but i don't understand why you bring it up. Difficulty of getting something isn't a point of discussion, the point of discussion was being able to get something by only playing mode player like and not touching others. About on "you can just buy it", look, i don't insist on that part, i just wanted to say that you still can just play WvW/sPvP and eventually get legendary weapon without ever touching any other mode, but it's not that important. Even if you cut out weapons from "can obtain by only playing WvW/sPvP" list, those two modes still by far in better place then OW. Your point was "that WVW and PVP need to do pve for almost all legys besides the armor", i responded with that PvE required only for legendary accessories, and every other possible slot can be filled without ever touching PvE. I'm also an introvert, i don't have big problems interacting with people when i have to, but it is usually exhausting and unpleasant experience for me. I also have guild that i have made my path in raids with, and i feel gratitude toward them, there're many good people. But even so, it doesn't change my relation to instanced group content, neither raiding or fractals were enjoyable experience for me, and if i had ability to craft armor in OW i wouldn't think a second and choose OW path, knowing how each path will work out. What i want to say, no need to say do x, it will be good for you, it's not as scary as you think. Many of us are mature enough to know that it's not scary and to know it won't be good for us. I tried, i knew it won't be very hard or scary, i knew it will turn out becoming second work for me and i won't enjoy it, and it was exactly as i thought it would be. Well, at least i have my two raid armor sets now.

You quoted one speciffic person, who didn't even seriously suggested removing anything from WvW/sPvP, but just tried to show how vicious "you have to play speciffic content, even if you don't like it, no alternatives allowed" logic is, and extrapolated it on everybody else somehow.

You don't know how raid armor is done, right? Aside from achivement you also need Legendary Insights, which can only be obtained by killing raid bosses. Buying raid armor also means you still has to play raids in a way, you have to arrange deal wirh raid seller, attend raid and spend time there during many weeks. Weapons you just buy from TP immediately. Even without weapons, WvWers and sPvPers can fill half or more of possible slots with legendaries. And PvE as a whole still don't even have access to 2 rings, only to one.

Technically only for legendary accessories. SPvP has armor, amulet and backpack, WvW has armor, backpack and rings (you can equip 2 rings from WvW). Weapons can be bought from TP for gold directly and for legendary upgrades aside from gold only require from you to get to related merchants that can exchange certain items (and many of those items don't require to play any for of PvE, like Obsidian Shards or Mystic Stones) for provisioner's tokens and then for Gift of Craftsmanship. Even if you cut out weapons, playing WvW + sPvP provide you with options for legendary gear almost for every slot possible. And if player plays WvW or sPvP exclusively, it only additionaly cut this player out of amulet or rings relatively. So i don't know what do you mean be by "almost all leggys", when in fact it only accessories + rings for sPvP or accessories + amulet for WvW, and weapons if you don't count buying them from TP as option. And if WvWers or sPvPers gonna ask for alternative ways for obtaining legendary accessories or weapons for them, none of those who asking for OW legendary armor gonna oppose that. OW only has accessories, amulet and weapons that can be obtained exclusively from OW, though weapons are somewhat of being debatable, since you still have to play WvW to craft one.

And again, and again, and again. a) I would like to hear what else MMOs reward legendary armor from raids, legendary armor which only advantage over previous gear tier is QoL. Is it WoW? I can't remember WoW to have legendary armor at all tbh. Maybe FF14 or ESO, what are those MMOs? b) "Autopilot content". Dismissive treatment: check. c) In this specific topic i can't recall someone complained about raid difficulty, so i don't understand why you continue to bring this up?

Would you be so kind to point out where did i suggest it? Grinding mobs isn't what open world is about, must be shocking, i understand. If it was how you played open world all this time, then you did it wrong.

It's not how it actually work in the game right now, you can literaly craft legendary armor by fighting.nothing harder than veteran mobs, it's what many players do. And there is reverse examples like doing some actually challenging content have almost zero reward.

My point is simple, you have stated that getting legendary gear doesn't result in player starting to experiment with buildcrafting, i've stated that just my personal example proves you wrong. Obviously not every player once got full legendary gear all of a sudden starts experimenting with build crafting, but you cannot claim there is no audience for it or how big/small that audience is, just as well as you cannot claim that anyone who likes to experiment with build crafting would do it with or without legendary gear, because you'll be immediately proven wrong by my personal example. The irony is, i have crafted 2 of my legendary armor sets from raids and one from WvW, but the only mode were i used legendary armor by it's full capacity so far is open world.

There is no commonly acknowledged definition of "endgame" for MMOs or gaming in general, each time someone starts to use this word it is just a sign it will be used as a tool to push certain narrative. So i'm not going to continue on this pointless branch of discussion which will inevitably devolve into "what is endgame". I feel no need in arbitrary terms just to make discussion uneccesary more complicated and cofusing to get stuck in it like in a quicksand. If many players can enjoy certain mode for many thousands of hours, there's no point to push them into other modes, and beautiful claims like "raids are endgame content, it's healthy for the game to support endgame" won't change it.

If there would be demand for it, i suppose we would've topics and discussions about it, but we don't. Maybe because not many players consider festivals their major activity in the game or really care for having legendary gear.