Rinagal.9235

Argument is a tool to convince opposite side of discussion, not the purpose itself. Main point is "we want to be able to get legendary armor in game mode we enjoy", not the "we want to fix every injustice in this game". Defend our personal interest is the purpose we try to achieve, justice is one of tools we use for it. Because of it WvW rewards topic isn't a point of disscucion, but as i said, i doubt anyone from those who asks for OW legendary armor oppose idea of improving WvW rewards or would use it for extortion. Being able to get legendary armor in game mode i like is totaly my personal interest, as it is a sign of some game design philosophies switching in directions that appeal me. Though, i don't plan to craft it, it's true, as i have more rational uses for my resources. However i don't want other players like me to go through raids and WvW like i did in order to get legendary armor, as i didn't enjoy my time there. And i believe forcing players into content they don't enjoy isn't a good thing.

I like how many people here think if they will just say "No, it's not", it will somehow be a valid argument in discussion while cutting out half of opponents post to conviniently ignore all inconvinient parts of it. It was exactly what i did, before i wrote my post. "A straw man argument is a misrepresentation of an opinion or viewpoint, designed to be as easy as possible to refute. Just as a person made of straw would be easier to fight with than a real human, a straw man argument is easy to knock to the ground." You generalised some group of people, took that "gimme" from someone without even quoting who said it, while ignoring any opinion that differed from it, and then started to criticise this "gimme" because it is easy.

You whole argument is whataboutism. Yes, WvW has bad GpH rate, or bad reward structure in general, you can create topics about it and believe me there will be no OW players saying: "I am not opposed to better rewards for WvW, as long as OW has legedary armor." We're not here fighing for social justice trying to fix every wrong in the world, but to defend our own interests, like every normal person do. If every person that thinks something isn't right will start to come to us and say: "Hey, open worlders, fix that unfairness for me and then you can have your legendary armor", we will never get anywhere.

It classified as a strawman argument what you have been doing here, by taking some convinient points some people have said here to exaggerate and attacke them. Specifics of how OW legendary armor should be implemented is out of matter right now, it will just get whole disscusiion farther from relevant points and is just another way to shut down discussion. So far in this topic i've only seen one post saying it should be done same way as Champion's Regalia had been done, the most common opinion is, though, that it should be comparable to other ways of acquiring legendary armor, in the sense that it have to have gold/material sink, timegate aspect to it and certain level of dedication. Any tradeoffs are completely pointless as it's not up to you, or me, or anyone else in this topic to decide what would be the exact requirements for it. So i suggest you to stop asking people how many bazillions gift of exploration would be required for one piece of legendary armor, as it serve no good purpose.

It wasn't meant to be in the first place, since strikes are basically same raids by design with only minor differencies like: being smaller locations with only one boss encounter, based on personal story assets to reduce production cost, different reward structure. It's still the same 10-man group instanced content with almost 100% (in case of strikes it's 100%) focus on boss encounters.

I'm aware of low gold per hour rate in WvW, but i don't understand why you bring it up. Difficulty of getting something isn't a point of discussion, the point of discussion was being able to get something by only playing mode player like and not touching others. About on "you can just buy it", look, i don't insist on that part, i just wanted to say that you still can just play WvW/sPvP and eventually get legendary weapon without ever touching any other mode, but it's not that important. Even if you cut out weapons from "can obtain by only playing WvW/sPvP" list, those two modes still by far in better place then OW. Your point was "that WVW and PVP need to do pve for almost all legys besides the armor", i responded with that PvE required only for legendary accessories, and every other possible slot can be filled without ever touching PvE. I'm also an introvert, i don't have big problems interacting with people when i have to, but it is usually exhausting and unpleasant experience for me. I also have guild that i have made my path in raids with, and i feel gratitude toward them, there're many good people. But even so, it doesn't change my relation to instanced group content, neither raiding or fractals were enjoyable experience for me, and if i had ability to craft armor in OW i wouldn't think a second and choose OW path, knowing how each path will work out. What i want to say, no need to say do x, it will be good for you, it's not as scary as you think. Many of us are mature enough to know that it's not scary and to know it won't be good for us. I tried, i knew it won't be very hard or scary, i knew it will turn out becoming second work for me and i won't enjoy it, and it was exactly as i thought it would be. Well, at least i have my two raid armor sets now.

You quoted one speciffic person, who didn't even seriously suggested removing anything from WvW/sPvP, but just tried to show how vicious "you have to play speciffic content, even if you don't like it, no alternatives allowed" logic is, and extrapolated it on everybody else somehow.

You don't know how raid armor is done, right? Aside from achivement you also need Legendary Insights, which can only be obtained by killing raid bosses. Buying raid armor also means you still has to play raids in a way, you have to arrange deal wirh raid seller, attend raid and spend time there during many weeks. Weapons you just buy from TP immediately. Even without weapons, WvWers and sPvPers can fill half or more of possible slots with legendaries. And PvE as a whole still don't even have access to 2 rings, only to one.

Technically only for legendary accessories. SPvP has armor, amulet and backpack, WvW has armor, backpack and rings (you can equip 2 rings from WvW). Weapons can be bought from TP for gold directly and for legendary upgrades aside from gold only require from you to get to related merchants that can exchange certain items (and many of those items don't require to play any for of PvE, like Obsidian Shards or Mystic Stones) for provisioner's tokens and then for Gift of Craftsmanship. Even if you cut out weapons, playing WvW + sPvP provide you with options for legendary gear almost for every slot possible. And if player plays WvW or sPvP exclusively, it only additionaly cut this player out of amulet or rings relatively. So i don't know what do you mean be by "almost all leggys", when in fact it only accessories + rings for sPvP or accessories + amulet for WvW, and weapons if you don't count buying them from TP as option. And if WvWers or sPvPers gonna ask for alternative ways for obtaining legendary accessories or weapons for them, none of those who asking for OW legendary armor gonna oppose that. OW only has accessories, amulet and weapons that can be obtained exclusively from OW, though weapons are somewhat of being debatable, since you still have to play WvW to craft one.

And again, and again, and again. a) I would like to hear what else MMOs reward legendary armor from raids, legendary armor which only advantage over previous gear tier is QoL. Is it WoW? I can't remember WoW to have legendary armor at all tbh. Maybe FF14 or ESO, what are those MMOs? b) "Autopilot content". Dismissive treatment: check. c) In this specific topic i can't recall someone complained about raid difficulty, so i don't understand why you continue to bring this up?

Would you be so kind to point out where did i suggest it? Grinding mobs isn't what open world is about, must be shocking, i understand. If it was how you played open world all this time, then you did it wrong.

It's not how it actually work in the game right now, you can literaly craft legendary armor by fighting.nothing harder than veteran mobs, it's what many players do. And there is reverse examples like doing some actually challenging content have almost zero reward.

My point is simple, you have stated that getting legendary gear doesn't result in player starting to experiment with buildcrafting, i've stated that just my personal example proves you wrong. Obviously not every player once got full legendary gear all of a sudden starts experimenting with build crafting, but you cannot claim there is no audience for it or how big/small that audience is, just as well as you cannot claim that anyone who likes to experiment with build crafting would do it with or without legendary gear, because you'll be immediately proven wrong by my personal example. The irony is, i have crafted 2 of my legendary armor sets from raids and one from WvW, but the only mode were i used legendary armor by it's full capacity so far is open world.

There is no commonly acknowledged definition of "endgame" for MMOs or gaming in general, each time someone starts to use this word it is just a sign it will be used as a tool to push certain narrative. So i'm not going to continue on this pointless branch of discussion which will inevitably devolve into "what is endgame". I feel no need in arbitrary terms just to make discussion uneccesary more complicated and cofusing to get stuck in it like in a quicksand. If many players can enjoy certain mode for many thousands of hours, there's no point to push them into other modes, and beautiful claims like "raids are endgame content, it's healthy for the game to support endgame" won't change it.

If there would be demand for it, i suppose we would've topics and discussions about it, but we don't. Maybe because not many players consider festivals their major activity in the game or really care for having legendary gear.

It's problem of said modes, not of players. Stop solving imaginary problems at the expense of players, raids not being popular is problem for those who likes raids, not for me. There is nothing wrong with liking one specific game mode, wrong is being punished for it. I have already discussed it on previous "5 pages of discussion", not going to return to it again and repeat said arguments. Raids and open world are 2 different game modes. Fishing heavily incorporated into open world, as it is now it can't fully exist outside of open world, all collections are done in open world, players starts and progresses in fishing in open world, baits/lures, different related items acquired in open world. Fishing doesn't exist as a standalone game mode, but a part of open world, so no need going extreme with this reasoning. Stop this endgame bullkitten arbitrary claim, raids didn't even always exist in this game. I have played more than 2500 hours before even trying raid and never had a problem, it might be true for games like WoW, where open world is indeed is just side activity mostly needed to prepare for raids, but for Guild Wars 2 open world is actuall major content, not raids. Raids are just the most challenging part of endgame PvE, not the entire.

I do have legendary armor (for every weight type), as well as all legendary trinkets, 6 legendary runes and 4 legendary sigils, and i did a lot of experimenting with spectre in OW at first weeks of EoD, i would never do (and never did before) such experimenting if i would have to interact with Mystic Forge and spend resources each time. So just my personal experience is already proves you wrong with your disingenuous and laughable statements. So please stop assuming for other players what they will or will not do, once they get legendary gear, and just go create another very original celestial build for open world.

I would like to see how you will solo mushroom HP in TD with your precious meta-builds from snowcrows or discretise. DE proves many players lack basic knowledge on game mechanics and on how stat combinations, skills, traits and gear upgrades synergise between each other. In most cases because they weren't very interested in those aspects of the game or/and didn't had to figure it out, not because making decent build is some rocket science. Indeed, why?

Oh no, how would i be able to play and enjoy OW without meta-builds, Anet please start develop new raids, without meta-builds we're nothing.

Because legendaries never were about "really need", but about "want". What do each player want it for is player's own buisiness. It's your experience, i had different experience, with soloing Champion of Balthasar in AB and mushroom HP in TD for example. What kind of argument is it? I can't speak for other players, but i personally asked for OW legendary armor because i wanted to acquire it by playing game mode i like, not because i wanted easy/cheap/fast legendary armor. No need to put words in other mouths and make assumptions of others "true" intentions.

Not everyone sees raids as universal good to the game, so not everyone care really or even the opposite, would be glad if Anet stopped developing said content.

It's an old argument. a) No one really need Legendary armor or legendaries at all, therefore this cannot be used as an argument against one or several specific game modes. And OW players would make more use of legendary armor in OW then sPvPers in sPvP. b) OW world still has different challenges of different difficulties where different builds will perform very differently, to the extent where one build won't be able to complete task that other can. So it's not up to you to decide how much OW players need legendary armor in comparison to players of other mods. There is totally use for legendary armor in open world. All those "OW don't need legendary armor" is just some players being dismissive and elitistic toward OW and imagine OW players as auto-attack spammers in meta-events.

Just as sPvP and WvW are both parts of PvP, how long will we walk in circles?

Oh, i see, you'll rather agree that sPvP and WvW are the same mode than that raids and open world are two different. But no, just like sPvP and WvW are different game modes due to their different designs, even though both are PvP modes, raids and open world are different game modes due to their different designs, even though both are PvE modes.

Maybe we should differentiate game modes by their design, and not by how information organized in patch notes?