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  • Re: Raid difficulty and challenge motes

    @Fatalyz.7168 said:

    @Lakemine.3014 said:

    @Fatalyz.7168 said:

    @Lakemine.3014 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Zefiris.8297 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    The simple answer is: it's not cost-effective. An "easy/story mode" raid would have no replayability whatsoever. Let alone multiple difficulty tiers. They will serve to only be "accessed" once by some curious players who will never go back to them. It is simply not worth the effort.

    Actually, other MMOs have proven this to be wrong: This approach is most cost effective, because it achieves multiple things at once.
    1. It gets people into raiding, letting them actually try the content and see if they like it (which many do)
    2. It gets people to practice the mechanics, leading to the average person trying a raid to be better at it
    3. It keeps people engaged, because there is more content to do with friends, which is the reason for a MMO to have retention

    This is why the most successful MMOs do use such easier modes. It's not because these games have nicer designers, it's just because it's a more effective use of development time.

    1. No it doesn't. I've seen many people show interest in raiding and lose it quickly. It was never a difficulty problem, it was commitment. Having to make arrangements ahead of time and having to stick with them for the sake of a game - that's what makes people not become raiders, most of everything. You might argue PUGs exist, but pugging wastes a lot more time in setting up a group, both at the start and when somebody leaves. It's your free time and you're trying to have some fun. Waiting is nobody's idea of fun, so people give up on that, too.

    2. No it doesn't. Tuned-down mechanics can only teach you bad habits.

    3. No it doesn't, see (1).

    For point 2.....imo, they should not tune down mechanics, just the dps checks and enrage timers. Does that mean having to dodge 15+ of Slothasor's Spore Release, yeah maybe, but people are not under a time constraint, plus it means practicing that mechanic more. Also, removing LIs and lessening rewards for this mode, so people don't just go the path of least resistance to get LIs, but can still learn the mechanics and see the storyline

    Tbf, most of the DPS checks are really low, VG I think is around 4k, per person in a 10 person squad. Gorseval, on the other hand, is a dps check. But on most other fights, like sloth, if people are dodging the mechanics anyway, enrage won't usually matter, it isn't insta-wipe, and you can still keep on plugging away. Enrage mode, however, does severely lower the possibility for recovery, if a mechanic is missed.

    I remember my guilds first Matt kill. We ended up going 5 min past the enrage timer.

    Hmm.......then I guess the guild runs I tried people couldn't even get to 4k? Because we couldn't even get to phase 2 more then 3 times of VG. And I know the necro was at 29k and me on my thief was around there too, but lower because I don't have min/max stats, just stuff in the general range, running mostly full zerk with some assassin. And when the raid leader posted the dps meter (which to my understanding, NO ONE is aloud to test your dps unless you do it yourself.) most everyone seemed to be around 14k, which I'm guessing not being higher was because of only being in the first phase? Now true, the reason why was because people kept failing the green circle. But the few times we did make it to the 3rd phase, it was after 4 minutes, so 4 minutes into the fight. Dps to low I'm guessing?

    First, you give consent to having your dps monitored, anytime you join a group or squad. The only way to never have it read, is not join a group, or go with groups/people that don't use them. I believe that this was how Anet phrased giving consent.

    To the point you raised, it seems your dps was at an OK level. So it seems that the issue is failed mechanics. For VG, the most common mechanic fails are, not managing greens (either through distort or having people go to the circle), people getting ported by blues (personal mechanic check, although can be distorted), lack of seeker control, slow CC (his CC channel ability really hurts), dps getting in front of VG and getting hit by his absurdly hard auto, and if kiting the boss for phase 2 and 3, not moving the boss fast enough causing greens to spawn in a danger zone.

    Something that I suggest to people, if you are having difficulty overcoming a boss, you or someone else, record a couple of runs. See what you can see, and focus on improving those areas.

    To the rest of the info about the fight, I knew most of they info already, guess just putting in the context you did made it seem clearer. Thanks, and hopefully I can try it again with the guild, or get into another one that can do it.

    About the DPS meters. Before I thought they were against the EULA (heck my brother got banned for 2 weeks for running in circles and then got banned for buying PoF (complicated story, but I learned some good info out of it, still kitten I wasted 90 bucks on a voided code.) and using them put you at risk to get banned. Then I think it was in April or May they said that personal DPS meters were ok, but not ones that recorded other peoples information. If it was just your numbers, then DPS meters were fine, but if it was recording another player(s) information then it was against the EULA. And I seem to remember the people on reddit who made those DPS meters, having to redesign them so it was within EULA parameters. I will try to find the info that Anet released on it, but its in the old forums. Hopefully a dev can help me out? :D

  • Re: Raid difficulty and challenge motes

    @Fatalyz.7168 said:

    @Lakemine.3014 said:
    . So why can't raids be the same way?

    Differing design philosophies. Fractals were created from the ground up to be varying difficulty levels, raids were not. We also do not know the amount of resources it takes to complete one fractal with multiple levels of difficulty vs 1 complete raid wing.

    Hmm......true. Man I wish both teams would come out and explain the truth with all the gritty details and computer jargon and code so we can make more sense of it.

  • Re: Raid difficulty and challenge motes

    @Fatalyz.7168 said:

    @Lakemine.3014 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Zefiris.8297 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    The simple answer is: it's not cost-effective. An "easy/story mode" raid would have no replayability whatsoever. Let alone multiple difficulty tiers. They will serve to only be "accessed" once by some curious players who will never go back to them. It is simply not worth the effort.

    Actually, other MMOs have proven this to be wrong: This approach is most cost effective, because it achieves multiple things at once.
    1. It gets people into raiding, letting them actually try the content and see if they like it (which many do)
    2. It gets people to practice the mechanics, leading to the average person trying a raid to be better at it
    3. It keeps people engaged, because there is more content to do with friends, which is the reason for a MMO to have retention

    This is why the most successful MMOs do use such easier modes. It's not because these games have nicer designers, it's just because it's a more effective use of development time.

    1. No it doesn't. I've seen many people show interest in raiding and lose it quickly. It was never a difficulty problem, it was commitment. Having to make arrangements ahead of time and having to stick with them for the sake of a game - that's what makes people not become raiders, most of everything. You might argue PUGs exist, but pugging wastes a lot more time in setting up a group, both at the start and when somebody leaves. It's your free time and you're trying to have some fun. Waiting is nobody's idea of fun, so people give up on that, too.

    2. No it doesn't. Tuned-down mechanics can only teach you bad habits.

    3. No it doesn't, see (1).

    For point 2.....imo, they should not tune down mechanics, just the dps checks and enrage timers. Does that mean having to dodge 15+ of Slothasor's Spore Release, yeah maybe, but people are not under a time constraint, plus it means practicing that mechanic more. Also, removing LIs and lessening rewards for this mode, so people don't just go the path of least resistance to get LIs, but can still learn the mechanics and see the storyline

    Tbf, most of the DPS checks are really low, VG I think is around 4k, per person in a 10 person squad. Gorseval, on the other hand, is a dps check. But on most other fights, like sloth, if people are dodging the mechanics anyway, enrage won't usually matter, it isn't insta-wipe, and you can still keep on plugging away. Enrage mode, however, does severely lower the possibility for recovery, if a mechanic is missed.

    I remember my guilds first Matt kill. We ended up going 5 min past the enrage timer.

    Hmm.......then I guess the guild runs I tried people couldn't even get to 4k? Because we couldn't even get to phase 2 more then 3 times of VG. And I know the necro was at 29k and me on my thief was around there too, but lower because I don't have min/max stats, just stuff in the general range, running mostly full zerk with some assassin. And when the raid leader posted the dps meter (which to my understanding, NO ONE is aloud to test your dps unless you do it yourself.) most everyone seemed to be around 14k, which I'm guessing not being higher was because of only being in the first phase? Now true, the reason why was because people kept failing the green circle. But the few times we did make it to the 3rd phase, it was after 4 minutes, so 4 minutes into the fight. Dps to low I'm guessing?

  • Re: Raid difficulty and challenge motes

    @meeflak.9714 said:
    Arenanet had stated from the start what they plan to do with raids. They were made to give the community something challenging and engaging to enjoy. It has been said that they don't want to take time to make different tiers because it will take away from thier time they have to design new engaging raid content. Why do you expect them to cater to your requests? Why do they have to take time away from development of new mechanics, for those that want to play it? Your asking them to put a stop on their goals to cater to you

    Do raider's have to run fractals .. no... Do they if they want to experience the lore ? Or get ad infinitum? Yes

    Do raider's have to play PvP? No . Do they have to if they want Ascension ? Yes

    Do raider's have to play WvW? No. Do they have to if they want the the armor and back piece? Yes

    Does the community have to raid? No . Do they if they want to experience the lore and get legendary armor ? Yes.

    No one Is forced to do anything in this game. If a player wants something from a certain aspect of the game. It's their responsibility to seek it out... I'll never play WvW again I'm sure. Imnot upset I'll never get their specific skins. Those players put the into that game mode to receive it's payouts. That's all raids ask of you . If you want to be included. Then include yourself, but don't expect arenanet to cater to you because you don't want to go through with getting into the content the way it was designed

    Edit: why do I get so many thumbs down for explaining it the way I see it.. I'm sorry if you don't like my stance, we disagree, sure. But don't you think it's best to just see the magic In raids and give them a shot the way arenanet intended it?

    I don't think there is lore in pvp and wvw? And if there is.....hold that thought. In fractals people can still experience the lore with t1 fractals, they don't need to do t4 fractals to get lore. See for lore reasons, pvp, wvw and fractal newbs who stink at the game can STILL experience the lore by doing easy versions of them. Do they give the same rewards as the harder tiers of these content? Nope. So why can't raids be the same way?

  • Re: Raid difficulty and challenge motes

    @Rennie.6750 said:

    @Lakemine.3014 said:

    @Fatalyz.7168 said:

    @Crevox.5806 said:
    ....This is a weird program the GW2 community has created.

    I believe that this stems from the fact that there really is no way to judge a persons preparedness for raids. Other games have at least a gear score, so you at least know that that person was invested enough to gear up (I would assume, I didn't play those games). This game, you can have random people showing up in whatever they happen to have (ex - wearing soldiers stats while trying to fill a dps role, or wearing rare/exotics of differing stats). The only way groups have of determining someone's willingness to invest, is in the number of LI that others have accrued (or any other arbitrary means, like the AP requirements in prev dungeon running days). Whether right or wrong, it is the method that the community adopted, to at least filter out those that were not invested.

    Something to consider about training runs, they can end up being like auditions. The reason for this is because a lot of the experienced community gives back by helping to run these. You do a training run, even if it gets nowhere, you can still get noticed and invited to a guild. I understand if you don't want to do them, I refused to do them myself, but it took me a much longer time to get into raiding, than it had to.

    I understand what your saying, and for investing into harder content, yes. But, for example, in SWTOR (Star Wars: The Old Republic) they have 3 tiers of difficulty for raids, Story Mode (SM), Veteran Mode (VT) (former Hard Mode HM), and Master Mode (MM) (former Nightmare NIM). The story modes have min req gear ratings, but they are not high, plus they have daily rotating group finder raids, that give a bolster up to the avg gear rating for that raid. So people who might be a bit under geared, or who don't have time to regrind gear can still experience the storyline, for all the raids and on every character. Now VT? Also a gear rating, but no bolster, better rewards, extra mechanics, but still the same storyline. And MM is just worse. Imo, the "normal" of raids in GW2, is the VT mode from SWTOR, it gates people and prevents them from seeing the storyline. But SM does NOT give the same rewards as VT. You want those rewards, go gear up and learn the fights in VT. But if you just want to do the storyline and get some basic rewards, you still have easy story mode to do. Just wish Anet would do the same thing. ie: easier raids so people can see the storyline, but less or next to no rewards, unless they do it normally or in CM.

    Lol why does everyone care so much about what kind of gear casual players have access to? First if it's not rewarding then you'll get the same complaints then having good gear more accessible gives a better baseline to work on the next expansion as the devs don't have to care about wildly varying character power and design everything around a mix of greens and yellows. Just hand out exotics with an awesome skin like candy and have a rare chance at ascendant, everyone will be happy.

    Because if gear is easier to get, then it becomes about peoples skill and knowledge about their class and the fights. This is why I LOVE pvp and ranked in GW2. Icame from SWTOR pvp, where you would get rofl stomped, even with a bolster on, by people who had better gear then you. Pvp here (I started just after the change in April of 2014) is NO FREKAING GEAR NEEDED. Its about skill, its about knowing your class, the other classes, trying to outsmart other people, know the maps, know rotations. Your not held back by stupid gear that costs upwards of 400+ gold. And you can switch to a different class on the fly, no hassle. Heck, I can go make a new character, and within 3 minutes of making them, be beating people in ranked. Can't do that in raids. (Also to help people if I need to switch to a different class because the comp needs to change. Can do that in ranked, can't in raids, unless you have metric ton of gold, which most people don't.)

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