[Analysis] A Better Thief? No

[saerni.2584]

I've had a chance to fight a number of Willbenders now and also to observe a number of players using Willbender in a number of scenarios. I've also fought Harbingers and observed players using Harbinger. So I thought I'd make a post about how the existence of these specs relates to Thief. 
 

I'll get this out of the way, both of these are beta specs and we are likely to see adjustments to their abilities in terms of animations and effects. Willbenders are likely to see a reduction in the number of strikes needed to achieve their virtue effects. Certain skills are clunky or redundant (their Flurry gap closer is similar to JI and JI is superior because it lets you precast attacks). Virtue cool downs will need to be tweaked to make them more mobile (Harbinger is currently more mobile than WB).  Harbinger is likely to see a tweak to how they generate blight and the cost benefits of blight (heavy on blight from utilities means...maybe not using those utilities at all). 
 

So what about comparisons to Thief? Well to start, compared to Thief, Willbender looks like Rev 2.0. More skills to chase and a focus on damage but isn't actually faster than Thief. I've actually seen some WB who were able to deal significant damage, so damage isn't really their problem, they have lower sustain and have problems disengaging. Thief has stealth and can use that to aid in disengaging. By way of comparison, DH also has stealth via Trapper Runes. And DH also has a ranged elite weapon. This helps a ton when faced with situations where even a DH wouldn't want to be in melee range. That isn't to say WB offhand sword isn't good, just limited in that both WB virtues and sword are about being in melee range making DH a bit more flexible. Thief also wouldn't try standing in melee range and is more set up for hit and run tactics. Basically, (for now) Thief can outmaneuver WB and even if WB gained power to be similar to Rev a Thief would still be preferable in many cases.

 

Harbinger, although not an Assassin-type, does gain two mobility skills through shroud. And, with the mobility skills available to Core Necromancer, Harbinger is now significantly more mobile (currently more so than WB). This does not mean that Thief does not have more mobility. The big issue for Harbinger in this sense is that they become more vulnerable the more they stick in shroud to use their extra mobility skills—if they leave shroud then they lose those damage boosted skills. Essentially, Harbinger is only mobile in short bursts while Thief isn't limited by a self-debuff mechanic. And the stealth advantage over Harbinger is significant because once Harbinger needs to disengage they already have significant vulnerability and can't always rely solely on mobility (part of which using makes them even more vulnerable) to escape death. 
 

TLDR: Thief has structural advantages over the current "Thief-lite" elite specializations due to better mobility, stealth, and a loss of sustain on both new specs that players used to guardian and necro aren't used to. 

[ASP.8093]

The other thing with DH is that DH is one of the best classes in the game for converting utility skill slots into burst damage. Willbender doesn't have this.

[itspomf.9523]

Hear hear!

[Vidit.7108]

If we're judging mobility by how much and by how far you can move, yes thief is better. However what the willbender has is better damage on all of it's utilities that allow for travel. Infiltrator's signet and Shadow step both do no damage and have a longer cooldown. They were also more generous with range on the Willlbender utilities for very similar and even better effects than the physical Daredevil skills. 

Willbender gets a 2 second melee stun with 240 range on a 15 second cooldown. For an on demand stun like that Daredevil got to throw some daggers for a 1/4 daze up to three times but it gains a longer cooldown if we interrupt with it; and for the Daredevil in particular scorpion wire is way better for interrupts anyway. DD physical skills are clunky.

It's not a problem that Willbender gets to do cool things. It's a problem that thieves have become underwhelming and Daredevil is victim to a lot of weird post HoT balance changes that haven't aged well and were never revisited. 

Harbinger is just not in a great position right now with those elixirs so I'd hold off on comparisons until the next beta. It will probably see some big changes. They still got pistol ricochet on their auto attack when anet said we did too much damage with it.

[SlitheSlivier.1908]

58 minutes ago, Vidit.7108 said:

If we're judging mobility by how much and by how far you can move, yes thief is better. However what the willbender has is better damage on all of it's utilities that allow for travel. Infiltrator's signet and Shadow step both do no damage and have a longer cooldown. They were also more generous with range on the Willlbender utilities for very similar and even better effects than the physical Daredevil skills. 

Willbender gets a 2 second melee stun with 240 range on a 15 second cooldown. For an on demand stun like that Daredevil got to throw some daggers for a 1/4 daze up to three times but it gains a longer cooldown if we interrupt with it; and for the Daredevil in particular scorpion wire is way better for interrupts anyway. DD physical skills are clunky.

It's not a problem that Willbender gets to do cool things. It's a problem that thieves have become underwhelming and Daredevil is victim to a lot of weird post HoT balance changes that haven't aged well and were never revisited. 

Harbinger is just not in a great position right now with those elixirs so I'd hold off on comparisons until the next beta. It will probably see some big changes. They still got pistol ricochet on their auto attack when anet said we did too much damage with it.

This 100%

[saerni.2584]

The cooldown on the stun break/evade/stun ability in wvw is 30 seconds. That's about what I'd expect in line with other elite specialization skills. The virtue cooldowns are similarly higher in competitive content. 
 

Honestly, it might be a powerful skill but guardians can't afford to give up other skills to take it. 

[AikijinX.6258]

4 hours ago, Vidit.7108 said:

If we're judging mobility by how much and by how far you can move, yes thief is better. However what the willbender has is better damage on all of it's utilities that allow for travel. Infiltrator's signet and Shadow step both do no damage and have a longer cooldown. They were also more generous with range on the Willlbender utilities for very similar and even better effects than the physical Daredevil skills. 

Willbender gets a 2 second melee stun with 240 range on a 15 second cooldown. For an on demand stun like that Daredevil got to throw some daggers for a 1/4 daze up to three times but it gains a longer cooldown if we interrupt with it; and for the Daredevil in particular scorpion wire is way better for interrupts anyway. DD physical skills are clunky.

It's not a problem that Willbender gets to do cool things. It's a problem that thieves have become underwhelming and Daredevil is victim to a lot of weird post HoT balance changes that haven't aged well and were never revisited. 

Harbinger is just not in a great position right now with those elixirs so I'd hold off on comparisons until the next beta. It will probably see some big changes. They still got pistol ricochet on their auto attack when anet said we did too much damage with it.

The point Saerni is trying to make is that WB still pales in comparison to Thief. You will not take these “Better damaging Utilities” to fight, let alone fight a thief, and expect that your better damage will carry you to that desired win or reliably hit that Thief in general. 
 

I, along with many others had these pre-conceived mis-judgements and this premature fear of WB replacing Thief and doing their role much better. But when everything got put into practice and you saw how WB’s fought during the beta, all those pre- conceived fears were nullified. Because they don’t pose any type of threat in comparison to their superior counterparts (DH/ Core Guard). 
 

There movement skills and CDs will definitely be touched up and tweaked because as it is, there are redundancy’s in skills as saerni mentioned in his analysis as well as high CDs and possibly even a range increase for their teleport(s) (possibly) 
 

 

The Harbinger is a whole other beast. I really liked that Spec, Saerni pretty much said everything in his analysis I agree with, but honestly as of now every one of those specs can get smacked by Drd. Especially SA Staff DrD.

 

ANET stole like 3 or 4 moves from Thief in general and gave them both to Harbinger and Willbender, instead of creating totally new mechanics, techniques and animations. I won’t let them off the hook for that. Yes this pandemic delayed them and a lot of people in general, but I feel as though it should’ve given them even more time to think about different ways to implement new stuff and ideas.

Give. Ricochet. Back.

Edited August 19, 2021 by AikijinX.6258

[Zacchary.6183]

Great writeup, but does this also take into account the general guard playerbase's usual playstyle of facetanking? Because it could very well be a l2p issue as well. Using movement abilities to reposition and possibly move away from attacks instead of trying to facetank with a spec that tries to move away from their normal gameplay, in conjunction with smart build design, could mean the difference for them. But that's just my opinion.

Edited August 20, 2021 by Zacchary.6183

[Doggie.3184]

I don't believe that many Guardian mains will know what to do with their new spec for a while unless they actually play their thief alt a lot. It's going to inherit Thief's high skill floor.

[SlitheSlivier.1908]

18 hours ago, AikijinX.6258 said:

The point Saerni is trying to make is that WB still pales in comparison to Thief. You will not take these “Better damaging Utilities” to fight, let alone fight a thief, and expect that your better damage will carry you to that desired win or reliably hit that Thief in general. 
 

I, along with many others had these pre-conceived mis-judgements and this premature fear of WB replacing Thief and doing their role much better. But when everything got put into practice and you saw how WB’s fought during the beta, all those pre- conceived fears were nullified. Because they don’t pose any type of threat in comparison to their superior counterparts (DH/ Core Guard). 
 

There movement skills and CDs will definitely be touched up and tweaked because as it is, there are redundancy’s in skills as saerni mentioned in his analysis as well as high CDs and possibly even a range increase for their teleport(s) (possibly) 
 

 

The Harbinger is a whole other beast. I really liked that Spec, Saerni pretty much said everything in his analysis I agree with, but honestly as of now every one of those specs can get smacked by Drd. Especially SA Staff DrD.

 

ANET stole like 3 or 4 moves from Thief in general and gave them both to Harbinger and Willbender, instead of creating totally new mechanics, techniques and animations. I won’t let them off the hook for that. Yes this pandemic delayed them and a lot of people in general, but I feel as though it should’ve given them even more time to think about different ways to implement new stuff and ideas.

Give. Ricochet. Back.

It's not supposed to be a thief. The gameplay is meant to be fast and more mobile, which is like a Thief, but the rest is not. It's not a good comparison. It's actually closer to sword weaver than Thief.  

 

I wouldn't baseline it against a Thief since they work so differently... weaver or maybe gs ranger would be a better choice. The classes as a whole have different tools to balance around.   Also remember the classes are more rock-paper-scissors. Just because a Thief kills you doesn't mean your build is crap, it may just be the rock to your scissors. I think 3 days wasnt enough time to figure out the intricacies and determine just how they fit in all matchups tho.

[reddie.5861]

thief (daredevil) is superior to both classes.
i dont see willbender beating a thief on anything.
harbringer isnt any good it lacks massive condi dps and it lacks massive power dps, thief outshines harbringer

[Vornollo.5182]

None of the beta specs currently available worry me at all.

Virtuoso being a Mesmer inherently struggles with thieves almost and is in fact even easier to deal with due to cast times on their shatters and LoS being a big, big issue on their spec.

Harbinger basically kills itself despite having shroud and is remarkably easy to bait out so... It's more mobile for sure, but easy enough to stick to them and punish any potential misplay (currently usually bad Blight management).

Willbender, meh. I very much prefer fighting one of them than a core Guard or even DH. More mobility, but overall low sustain and their mobility definitely doesn't match up to what a any kind of Thief spec could do.

 

Only thing I'm slightly bummed about is to see new Elite specs get "new toys" which are the things that Thief used to have, Engineer needs and that many Thief players have been requesting for ages. Nothing new there, but still.

But who knows. Our own Elite Spec hasn't been revealed yet (outside of a potential bait leak, bit like a certain silhouette), it might just blow everything else out of the water.

We'll just have to wait and see.

[AikijinX.6258]

1 hour ago, SlitheSlivier.1908 said:

It's not supposed to be a thief. The gameplay is meant to be fast and more mobile, which is like a Thief, but the rest is not. It's not a good comparison. It's actually closer to sword weaver than Thief.  

 

I wouldn't baseline it against a Thief since they work so differently... weaver or maybe gs ranger would be a better choice. The classes as a whole have different tools to balance around.   Also remember the classes are more rock-paper-scissors. Just because a Thief kills you doesn't mean your build is crap, it may just be the rock to your scissors. I think 3 days wasnt enough time to figure out the intricacies and determine just how they fit in all matchups tho.

I think it was a good comparison (at the time) when listening and viewing the devs play test on their stream. But once the beta rolled out, the play style definitely compared more to weaver, in regard to virtue CDs. 
 

The game play “was” supposed to be fast and mobile, yet was underwhelming to play due to the cast animations and animation locks, as well as Longish CDs and janky virtues. (It should be fixed and tweaked when the next beta rolls through), but their intention didn’t meet expectation. 
 

and Drd slaps all these new elite specs regardless, doesn’t matter “how fast or mobile or how much dmg  (that they won’t reliably get off on you),” drd will always slap. Like I said before and will always say. SA Staff Drd currently counters all these new elite specs, especially virtuoso.

 

All I pray for in this new spec for Thief is that we get all ORIGINAL ideas, and not stolen (lol ironic) ones from other classes, because that is BORING and uninventive and just in general lazy, if ANET decided to go that route. 

 

[SlitheSlivier.1908]

5 hours ago, AikijinX.6258 said:

I think it was a good comparison (at the time) when listening and viewing the devs play test on their stream. But once the beta rolled out, the play style definitely compared more to weaver, in regard to virtue CDs. 
 

The game play “was” supposed to be fast and mobile, yet was underwhelming to play due to the cast animations and animation locks, as well as Longish CDs and janky virtues. (It should be fixed and tweaked when the next beta rolls through), but their intention didn’t meet expectation. 
 

and Drd slaps all these new elite specs regardless, doesn’t matter “how fast or mobile or how much dmg  (that they won’t reliably get off on you),” drd will always slap. Like I said before and will always say. SA Staff Drd currently counters all these new elite specs, especially virtuoso.

 

All I pray for in this new spec for Thief is that we get all ORIGINAL ideas, and not stolen (lol ironic) ones from other classes, because that is BORING and uninventive and just in general lazy, if ANET decided to go that route. 

 

Fair points all around. I think saying staff DD counters these a bit narrow tho...so does rifle DE... but other builds these are good against. I don't think it's an issue if these are bad against similar builds as long as the playstyle is different (which starts going to your other fair point), its fun for some, and it is useful against other builds. 

There are a bunch of builds that thieves are matched up poorly to and are forced to run or die, so I'm not worries about that.  I also have a feeling that they released these 3 together because they are similarly new variants in their class.  Harb and virt have projectiles, harb and will are more mobile. All of them seem glassier.  My point is before you start worrying about " XXX countering all the new specs", lets see what the new specs are. (I know i exaggerated what you said but just trying to make a point).