Staff on Elementalist?

[fuzzyp.6295]

2 minutes ago, Darigostoaf.2509 said:

We are at a point in GW2 where many builds are currently being balanced very well.  There are other problem, but essentially, staff should be rewarding no?

 

Isn't rewarding subjective though? I find staff very rewarding when I play it as it is. If they buff it, that'd be great. If they give some small QoL, that'd be great. If they keep it as it is, I'm fine with that.

[Darigostoaf.2509]

The point I am making here is that a lot of attention has gone into the trait reworks, and even weapon reworks of some builds.  Elementalist has had its auras changed, but I feel Elementalist is still lacking when it come to staff specifically.  Sure it was a popular choice before, but we are in 2021 now.  Surely we can give the weapon a place and a little bit of love.  It has one of the coolest playstyles.  The problem lies within the payoff.  The damage is simply too low for the slow, bursty playstyle.

[Ragebru.1397]

2 minutes ago, Darigostoaf.2509 said:

The point I am making here is that a lot of attention has gone into the trait reworks, and even weapon reworks of some builds.  Elementalist has had its auras changed, but I feel Elementalist is still lacking when it come to staff specifically.  Sure it was a popular choice before, but we are in 2021 now.  Surely we can give the weapon a place and a little bit of love.  It has one of the coolest playstyles.  The problem lies within the payoff.  The damage is simply too low for the slow, bursty playstyle.

That would be like asking for revenant shield to not heal, or necro staff to not place marks? It's just what the weapon was designed for. 

[Zeesh.7286]

This is such a recurring topic by now. Staff weaver is top damage in open field wvw. This is something that no serious gw2 player who has seen decent weavers will contest. There are plenty of ele content creators and other multiclass content creators that have shared videos of staff weaver damage in wvw and it is utterly undeniably much higher than most other classes unless of course the weaver is kittening up placements. That superpeed thing impacts all other damage classes too.  Anyone can move out of the damage fields fast right now with superspeed. 

The damage being low is NOT why staff weaver isn't meta (even though it is not low, it is high). It's not meta because of other reasons but the short answer is that staff weaver is a selfish spec with small group synergy in zerg play. 

[Ragebru.1397]

4 minutes ago, Zeesh.7286 said:

The damage being low is NOT why staff weaver isn't meta (even though it is not low, it is high). It's not meta because of other reasons but the short answer is that staff weaver is a selfish spec with small group synergy in zerg play. 

For the record, I honestly have no idea how staff does on other specs. I only run tempest, and i ONLY run tempest staff. I love it, hands down my favorite build in the game. High intensity, with a very large rotation pool.

[Zeesh.7286]

Just now, jwhite.7012 said:

For the record, I honestly have no idea how staff does on other specs. I only run tempest, and i ONLY run tempest staff. I love it, hands down my favorite build in the game. High intensity, with a very large rotation pool.

a meteor shower into an air overload is amazing! I love staff tempest too. I sometimes run a Fresh air one which spams air overloads in melee for aoe shocking aura before unloading meteor shower. Having one button access to unsteady ground and static field (2 of the best CCs in wvw imho) is definitely great. I just find weaver damage to be higher overall because the traitline offers so much damage modifiers like elements of rage, polyphony and swift revenge. But again weaver gives nothing to the group like tempest auras and even the CC skills are often locked behind attunements when needed. It's just a glassy purely damage build which churns big numbers. 

[solemn.9608]

5 hours ago, jwhite.7012 said:

Or how about we're rather using it for what its best at... supporting?

So your argument is that because it's currently "best" (it isn't...? One support heal tempest can't win a fight ... one dps weaver can) at supporting, we should just abandon it's overall viability for the average player as a DPS role? Especially with the fact that many support tempests don't even use staff, in mind?

 

Don't get me wrong I'm fine to leave it the way it is --- *I* am fine to leave it the way it is --- no sweat off my back, but I just thought a few touch-ups here & there would be nice?

 

Mind you I'm speaking of WvW (just like I was in the post that you replied to). I have no comment on PvP because Tempest is generally the better choice for PvP for more than a few reasons IMO.

Edited August 20, 2021 by solemn.9608

[Darigostoaf.2509]

14 minutes ago, solemn.9608 said:

So your argument is that because it's currently "best" (it isn't...? One support heal tempest can't win a fight ... one dps weaver can) at supporting, we should just abandon it's overall viability for the average player as a DPS role? Especially with the fact that many support tempests don't even use staff, in mind?

 

Don't get me wrong I'm fine to leave it the way it is --- *I* am fine to leave it the way it is --- no sweat off my back, but I just thought a few touch-ups here & there for the average player would be nice?

 

No?

 

Mind you I'm speaking of WvW (just like I was in the post that you replied to). I have no comment on PvP because Tempest is generally the better choice for PvP for more than a few reasons IMO.

Thanks for jumping in here Solemn!  We can speak about WvW as much as we want.  Let me remind everyone that my comments pertained to staff's flaws.  I think it is a very exciting weapon in general.  The abilities are fun.  My only concern is that its general use has poor satisfaction.  This is of course my opinion, but many are feeling the same way.  I am simply posting this to give the weapon some attention as I feel that some of the abilities given to us are outdated or a poor fit for the identity of staff on Elementalist.  I am not here to argue that the weapon is completely trash (even though I specifically said it is a bad weapon).  My argument is that staff should not represent meteor shower.  Meteor shower should represent staff and the rest of its glory that it could have.  The weapon does have good CC potential, I agree, but that does not excuse what makes staff feel unreliable at times.  The weapon needs more in its base kit to compete with other weapon choices.  I feel that its design is lacking.

[Ragebru.1397]

27 minutes ago, Darigostoaf.2509 said:

Thanks for jumping in here Solemn!  We can speak about WvW as much as we want.  Let me remind everyone that my comments pertained to staff's flaws.  I think it is a very exciting weapon in general.  The abilities are fun.  My only concern is that its general use has poor satisfaction.  This is of course my opinion, but many are feeling the same way.  I am simply posting this to give the weapon some attention as I feel that some of the abilities given to us are outdated or a poor fit for the identity of staff on Elementalist.  I am not here to argue that the weapon is completely trash (even though I specifically said it is a bad weapon).  My argument is that staff should not represent meteor shower.  Meteor shower should represent staff and the rest of its glory that it could have.  The weapon does have good CC potential, I agree, but that does not excuse what makes staff feel unreliable at times.  The weapon needs more in its base kit to compete with other weapon choices.  I feel that its design is lacking.

The problem with posts like this, is it draws focus away from other classes that are desperately in need of reworks. 
Engineer pistol, engineer shotgun/rifle (or whatever they're trying to achieve), warrior sword, and quite a few others.

 

Ele staff offers exceptional damage, exceptional CC, and phenomenal healing output. Set aside the crazy amount of fields for blast finishers. Of course I'd love to see fire get a revamp, or new flair for abilities. It's just not practical though, especially considering how great this weapon feels now. It doesn't feel op, but it doesn't feel underpowered either. It's well balanced, and has a great entry level skill requirement with a large skill cap ceiling.  What more could you possibly want from a weapon?

Edited August 21, 2021 by jwhite.7012

[Zeesh.7286]

I realized I only offered criticism and nothing constructive which is in poor taste. If we are to talk about QoL adjustments to staff (Since I do believe the damage numbers are fine) the only QoL I would really reallllyy love on staff weaver and that would imho push it a bit more closer to the META is 

1) removal on the root while casting meteor shower (and piledriver too)

 

Bonus adjustments:

2) Make elemental polyphony in weaver trait lines shareable with 5 party members 

3)removal of "projectile" status from Plasma blast and pyroclastic blast. 

4) Make the 10% damage boost from persisting flames shareable with 5 party members (this would majorly help support tempest too)

5) Adjust the base armor and HP stats just a tad bit.  

[Ragebru.1397]

11 minutes ago, Zeesh.7286 said:

I realized I only offered criticism and nothing constructive which is in poor taste. If we are to talk about QoL adjustments to staff (Since I do believe the damage numbers are fine) the only QoL I would really reallllyy love on staff weaver and that would imho push it a bit more closer to the META is 

1) removal on the root while casting meteor shower (and piledriver too)

 

being able to blink while channeling meteorshower is already strong as hell lol

[Mini Crinny.6190]

1 hour ago, jwhite.7012 said:

being able to blink while channeling meteorshower is already strong as hell lol

Being able to move would mean eles would probably not use LF while casting, right now it's used to get away from the group while casting but next meteor shower you cast you will not be able to do it

Edited August 21, 2021 by Mini Crinny.6190

[dtox.8397]

I think that many changes could be done apart of WvW (or not as much). Tryin to play DPS staff is impossible in sPvP (plat1+). If the enemy team realizes (and they will!) u are a dmg spec staff Ele, their assassin (rev or thief mostly) will jump on you, and you wont be able to kill them, just run for your life or till you die lol. In a 5v5, staff AoEs are much easier to deal with. A meteor show could be easily avoided and if u are not glass cannon then the dmg will be laughable (imagine if the first meteors dont crit, with the -10% dmg reduction).
Auto attacks are just...bad. Staff skills are meant for the 2012-2015 GW2, feels like it need a rework/buff to make it viable in 2021+. 

 

Edited August 22, 2021 by dtox.8397

[Darigostoaf.2509]

20 hours ago, dtox.8397 said:

I think that many changes could be done apart of WvW (or not as much). Tryin to play DPS staff is impossible in sPvP (plat1+). If the enemy team realizes (and they will!) u are a dmg spec staff Ele, their assassin (rev or thief mostly) will jump on you, and you wont be able to kill them, just run for or like till you die lol. In a 5v5, staff AoEs are much easier to deal with. A meteor show could be easily avoided and if u are not glass cannon then the dmg will be laughable (imagine if the first meteors dont crit, with the -10% dmg reduction).
Auto attacks are just...bad. Staff skills are meant for the 2012-2015 GW2, feels like it need a rework/buff to make it viable in 2021+. 

 

I completely agree with this.  I mostly think half the skills are outdated.  With the release of new elite specializations, staff keeps falling behind.  It is becoming more unreliable as players get better too.  I would love to see some changes to the weapon itself for sure.

[Darigostoaf.2509]

On 8/20/2021 at 8:06 PM, jwhite.7012 said:

The problem with posts like this, is it draws focus away from other classes that are desperately in need of reworks. 
Engineer pistol, engineer shotgun/rifle (or whatever they're trying to achieve), warrior sword, and quite a few others.

 

Ele staff offers exceptional damage, exceptional CC, and phenomenal healing output. Set aside the crazy amount of fields for blast finishers. Of course I'd love to see fire get a revamp, or new flair for abilities. It's just not practical though, especially considering how great this weapon feels now. It doesn't feel op, but it doesn't feel underpowered either. It's well balanced, and has a great entry level skill requirement with a large skill cap ceiling.  What more could you possibly want from a weapon?

Let me stop you right there.  First of all, singling something I truly care about so that it gets attention, does not make this discussion "problematic".  Secondly, I completely disagree that staff Elementalist is entry level.  Sure it is fun, but it is hard to make work compared to other weapon choices.  Are you really going to tell someone that dagger tempest is harder than using a staff?  Staff requires positioning, knowledge of enemy movements, and planning in competitive environments.  I would feel much more comfortable if someone handled sword weaver in PvE or dagger tempest in any game mode.

See this is the problem.  You may be able to spam healing fields, CC fields, and random packets of damage, but the question becomes whether you hit anything with it or not.  Guild Wars has heavy movement.  The damage it provides simply does not compete.  Sure, sometimes it will output loads of damage, but that is only because of one skill.  Does that sound like interesting gameplay to you?  I think not, especially if we get duel skills with the Weaver elite specialization.  I would argue that those abilities aren't even useful and some are poorly designed.

Edited August 22, 2021 by Darigostoaf.2509

[kurosy.1384]

Ahh my fav weapon from my fav class ** Where should I start from?

- The most iconic weapon of a wizard being a niche weapon is just very meh to me (some guy in the 1st page said it better)
- Staff is completely absent in organized pve boss content. It's not even viable in any raid, both as dps and support. I'd really love playing staff as a dps, really :'c  Could be nice for burst healing but why using it, when auramancer gives so many boons including 25 might and healing at the same time working with wh? 
- in open pve, staff is viable (still like, the last choice someone would do when searching for a survive/dps balance) but tbh i think everything is viable in open pve, where everything comes down to player ability to kite, move and dodge. I just go berserker and it's completely fine, so imho this doesn't even count that much.
- WvW is the only place where staff damage is relevant. It's indeed the highest dps but only in the hands of an expert ele player and I doubt a weapon should be balanced to be viable only around the most expert players while being prohibitive for all the rest. Nevertheless, I have the feeling it's not a dps problem (even if a tiny bit more wouldn't bother) nor a meteor problem. I'd rather like seeing a rework of some skills so that we could be up with the fast pace of today's wvw and even be somehow relevant to our party.
- WvW Tempest support with staff is nice, but compared to support scrapper, it completely loses the fight on so many levels. And this is not limited to staff; sadly no matter what weapon you put on a supp Tempest, Scrapper will do it better. I don't understand why two spec covering the same role should also have such a gap in utility. I feel like it's not fair at all.
- I won't say much about duels and pvp cause i lack experience in that but i can't help but refer what all my high tier friends tell me: staff's not competitive enough.

Overall, it's the weakest weapon (in terms of playability) from the most high-effort-low-reward* class and is niche at best in the whole game. I think it deserves a tune up.

 

*Ye, as an Ele main i find gratification in many different things and evidently i enjoy staff very much, but here i'm talking about a "quality check" across-all-classes, something that makes Anet say "i'm cool about how this works out" and i doubt staff could check this box while having same-purpose specs doing three times the things a staff dps ele can do, with half the trouble an ele goes through.

[Noel Vheurdrakkhein.3096]

Am I the only one who actively /does NOT/ want an up-close melee elite spec? We already got that with Weaver and its sword. I want an elite spec that actually keeps us at range. Since...
You know... elementalists have the lowest HP of scholar-types and are fragile mages?
The heck are we doing in melee range?

[HowlKamui.5120]

On 8/21/2021 at 2:05 AM, jwhite.7012 said:

Or how about we're rather using it for what its best at... supporting?

Which is exactly my problem. The Mage Archetype who rains down damage from above with devastating ranged aoe spells is relegated to... supporting?

 

Look, sure it's "great" for wvw in the hands of "expert" players, but all specs are like that. Meta WVW dps specs are better when experts play them. And sure, you're great at climbing whatever rank you are in in sPVP by healing people with the staff, but that isn't what we're arguing for. 

Us who are passionate about playing the wizard/sorcerer archetype want to "feel" powerful when using the elementalist staff. We want to feel like the wizard who casts big spells on a cast-time and see the huge impacts. We don't like the feeling of casting Fire 5, or Earth 2, and the mobs are already dead or has already moved away before it lands. We dont like the feeling of Air 1 being a slow projectile, and Air 2 3 and 4 barely doing anything. 

Numbers can be adjusted, but right now the staff doesn't *FEEL* good to use except for...supporting?

Edited August 24, 2021 by mikdepadua.8376

[Ragebru.1397]

16 minutes ago, mikdepadua.8376 said:

We want to feel like the wizard who casts big spells on a cast-time and see the huge impacts. 

Yea, because 1mil healing in a single match isn't a huge impact.

[HowlKamui.5120]

7 minutes ago, jwhite.7012 said:

Yea, because 1mil healing in a single match isn't a huge impact.

Man, you seem to be so arrogant with your posts and you keep ignoring what other people are saying, yet you call people problematic. When menders was in the game, I have always gotten those numbers in PvP as well. I am aware of how the class works and of its strenghts and weaknesses in its current form. I am not a bad player who's asking for staff buffs because "huhu im bad pls buff my weapon." I want the archetype itself to exist in this game. 

Let me say it again for you one final time. We want to feel strong and viable as mages who cast big spells for big damage. I want the power fantasy of being a devastating sorcerer be in this game.

Edited August 24, 2021 by mikdepadua.8376

[Ragebru.1397]

1 minute ago, mikdepadua.8376 said:

Man, you seem to be so arrogant with your posts and you keep ignoring what other people are saying, yet you call people problematic. When menders was in the game, I have always gotten those numbers in PvP as well. I am not a bad player who's asking for staff buffs because "huhu im bad pls buff my weapon." I want the mage archetype itself to exist in this game. 

Let me say it again for you one final time. We want to feel strong and viable as mages who cast big spells for big damage. I want the power fantasy of being a devastating sorcerer be in this game.

No, you're simply disregarding a weapons use, to try and benefit your own agenda. Fire weaver /w staff is already the signature cleave for many MANY top guilds in WvW. It can be extremely overwhelming in sPvP (stand off point while your guardian/necro holds cap), and is hands down the best weapon for elementalists in meta events for tagging and decent damage output. 

 

Multiple others here have displayed its various uses, yet you refuse to "guide us" on HOW you want this weapon to work. 

ie. do you want meteor shower to roll out in a straight line? Do you want it to hit more frequently for less damage? Do you want it to be one large AoE that hits at the same time? No, rather you just say "I want something else". 

[HowlKamui.5120]

2 hours ago, jwhite.7012 said:

No, you're simply disregarding a weapons use, to try and benefit your own agenda. Fire weaver /w staff is already the signature cleave for many MANY top guilds in WvW. It can be extremely overwhelming in sPvP (stand off point while your guardian/necro holds cap), and is hands down the best weapon for elementalists in meta events for tagging and decent damage output. 

 

Multiple others here have displayed its various uses, yet you refuse to "guide us" on HOW you want this weapon to work. 

ie. do you want meteor shower to roll out in a straight line? Do you want it to hit more frequently for less damage? Do you want it to be one large AoE that hits at the same time? No, rather you just say "I want something else". 

You saying staff is hands down the best ele weapon for tagging just confirms to me that you dont really know what you’re talking about. Also, Ive actually already said HOW I wanted this weapon to work, funnily enough. Even the first post lists down a lot of possible ways. Cmon man. If you’re gonna commit to this high horse act, at least read the posts. 
 

Not gonna comment on weavers being signature cleave on “many many” top wvw guilds cuz lol. 

Edited August 24, 2021 by mikdepadua.8376

[Ragebru.1397]

1 hour ago, mikdepadua.8376 said:

You saying staff is hands down the best ele weapon for tagging just confirms to me that you dont really know what you’re talking about. Also, Ive actually already said HOW I wanted this weapon to work, funnily enough. Even the first post lists down a lot of possible ways. Cmon man. If you’re gonna commit to this high horse act, at least read the posts. 
 

Not gonna comment on weavers being signature cleave on “many many” top wvw guilds cuz lol. 

Okay, so you clearly just back tracked in your post down below. "Look, sure it's "great" for wvw in the hands of "expert" players, but all specs are like that. Meta WVW dps specs are better when experts play them."

 

Then go on to say it has no place in WvW

 

4 hours ago, mikdepadua.8376 said:

Which is exactly my problem. The Mage Archetype who rains down damage from above with devastating ranged aoe spells is relegated to... supporting?

 

Look, sure it's "great" for wvw in the hands of "expert" players, but all specs are like that. Meta WVW dps specs are better when experts play them.

 

Us who are passionate about playing the wizard/sorcerer archetype want to "feel" powerful when using the elementalist staff. We want to feel like the wizard who casts big spells on a cast-time and see the huge impacts. We don't like the feeling of casting Fire 5, or Earth 2, and the mobs are already dead or has already moved away before it lands. We dont like the feeling of Air 1 being a slow projectile, and Air 2 3 and 4 barely doing anything. 

Air auto, sure speed it up- whatever.

Air 2, AoE blind and you say its not effective. LOL

Air 3, Hard CC, highly effective. 

Air 4, You might be the first person to complain about having a source of swiftness, but sure, maybe they could add a swirling winds to it to block projectiles to give it another function. 

On 8/19/2021 at 3:59 PM, mikdepadua.8376 said:

One thing I would super appreciate is if they made the air auto-attack be instant chain lightnings instead of super slow projectiles. It would look great if it was crackling lightning shooting out of the staff and instantly hitting the targets.
 

 

two mentions of the Air 1 auto, which is one of the few ricocheting auto's in the entire game, but sure. Lets increase the speed. Great suggestion. 

 

 

So we've got one real suggestion from you, all the rest was baseless complaints with no alternatives. Rather, you'd turn to insults and jabs to take away the fact that you have no idea how to utilize staffs abilities (or for that matter, care about their performance, rather the "looks"). Now, I wont comment on its purpose in raids, I have done 3 raids (no, they weren't even full clears) and I healed as staff tempest. That is in no way, shape, or form enough experience to judge the staff's ability in there. sPvP and WvW, fractals (most maps), and meta events are exceptional for staff users who know the proper rotations, and blasting rotations to stack might or grant widespread healing/regeneration. Once you've farmed those meta events, you know exactly where and when mobs will spawn, which allows for precasting signature abilities, such as meteor shower or eruption into lava font for quick might.  

Edited August 24, 2021 by jwhite.7012

[Mogsterfortytwo.6712]

On 8/20/2021 at 4:42 AM, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

You know staff sucks when people hope that Hammer does what staff should do. 

 

Ranged AoEs. 

 

Buff Staff! 

In theory, hammer could fix staff. There's a lot of talk of a 'jade attunement' for the spec; if this were a single, permanent attunement with each hammer skill functioning more like a glyph (changes based on attunement) then hammer would only actually have 5 skills. They would need to create a single set of jade skills for each core weapon but that is still fewer new skills than weaver introduced - about 50 new weapon skills 😵 including six for staff. Doing it this way would keep the new actual number of skills below 30 across hammer and core weapons while forcing a rethink on existing weapon play-style. It's a lot of new glyphs, but most of them could be based on the existing weapon skills they would replace.

[HowlKamui.5120]

8 hours ago, jwhite.7012 said:

Okay, so you clearly just back tracked in your post down below. "Look, sure it's "great" for wvw in the hands of "expert" players, but all specs are like that. Meta WVW dps specs are better when experts play them."

 

Then go on to say it has no place in WvW

 

Air auto, sure speed it up- whatever.

Air 2, AoE blind and you say its not effective. LOL

Air 3, Hard CC, highly effective. 

Air 4, You might be the first person to complain about having a source of swiftness, but sure, maybe they could add a swirling winds to it to block projectiles to give it another function. 

 

two mentions of the Air 1 auto, which is one of the few ricocheting auto's in the entire game, but sure. Lets increase the speed. Great suggestion. 

 

 

So we've got one real suggestion from you, all the rest was baseless complaints with no alternatives. Rather, you'd turn to insults and jabs to take away the fact that you have no idea how to utilize staffs abilities (or for that matter, care about their performance, rather the "looks"). Now, I wont comment on its purpose in raids, I have done 3 raids (no, they weren't even full clears) and I healed as staff tempest. That is in no way, shape, or form enough experience to judge the staff's ability in there. sPvP and WvW, fractals (most maps), and meta events are exceptional for staff users who know the proper rotations, and blasting rotations to stack might or grant widespread healing/regeneration. Once you've farmed those meta events, you know exactly where and when mobs will spawn, which allows for precasting signature abilities, such as meteor shower or eruption into lava font for quick might.  

Lots of things you said that I still think is laughably wrong (like needing might when tagging in meta events lol) but I realize we will never agree on this and there is no point in trying to convince you because you will never be convinced. I will just settle with agreeing to disagree. I just want to say that there's a reason why Revamp Ele Staff threads consistently get posted.

Good day to you.

Edited August 25, 2021 by mikdepadua.8376