So why is it that PvE people...

[Genesis.5169]

Complain about other classes performance..when all they do when your playing next to them is help you get to loot faster..

 

This applies to.

Metas

Fotm

Raids

Strike Missions

 

This does not apply to PvP, as on a long enough time like your gonna be to fighting that said OP class and it will not be fun, this is a legit question can some one help me understand?

Edited August 20, 2021 by Genesis.5169
Suggestion from the thread.

[Tyncale.1629]

Yes! My dps is all conditions, non bursty, slow in the coming, and when I notice bursty Powerbuilds joining in the activity, I rejoice! Suddenly stuff starts dropping like flies, and I just pretend that it's ME doing all that damage. 🙂

 

This is not sarcasm, having other players join the (harder) content  you are doing in GW2 is fun. I think Anet really hit the mark here. 

[Gehenna.3625]

I have a suggestion for your title: So why is it that some PvE people...

 

I'm a PvE'er in this game and I don't play raids or strike missions, I rarely play fractals and when I do metas I do my best and I don't even see whether other classes outperform mine. I just assume they're better at this game than I am. So I really couldn't tell you.

[Tyncale.1629]

I agree with Gehenna in changing the title, I do not think that there are a lot of pure PvE folk that would call for a nerf of another class.   That seems to be the exlusive domain of PvP-folk.  

[The Boz.2038]

In instanced content, groups will outright not accept you if you're not FOTM class-for-role.

It also feels pretty terribad to have a DPS role with a damage rotation of 60 steps, an APM of 200, and being outdone by the autoattacking herald who also facetanks every attack.

 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

44 minutes ago, Tyncale.1629 said:

Yes! My dps is all conditions, non bursty, slow in the coming, and when I notice bursty Powerbuilds joining in the activity, I rejoice! Suddenly stuff starts dropping like flies, and I just pretend that it's ME doing all that damage. 🙂

 

This is not sarcasm, having other players join the (harder) content  you are doing in GW2 is fun. I think Anet really hit the mark here. 

I sometimes watch eles engage in an epic dance layering on packets of damage and conditions on a batch of mobs, count to 3, then walk over and use Arc Divider to get rid of the other half of the mobs' HP. 👍

[Dante.1763]

Dawg im all for making classes strong in pve.

 

My ele cries due to the staff nerfs over the years. Core ele cries even harder. Not to mention that i cant do the eles rotation, so my damage is always lower(even if im trying) on my ele than on my ranger/sb easier rotations. 😕

[Zychuu.7294]

Some people might don't like other specific classes to be OP, when these classes become so much more capable that there it's becoming the only standard to play given role. At this point, it's stops being about "well, they'll help me in party so good for them", and can become "I won't get into the party if I don't play that meta class for the role".

 

...it doesn't really matter that you can do well with other class, or that some people of meta class can do worse. What matter is that if you don't know that LFG person at all, it seems reasonable to want to take a 'good' class with you instead of hoping that this guy playing off-meta build is secretly just way too good with it to make up for not playing one of the OP classes.

 

If such class shows up, you are basically at disadvantage, both if it comes to LFG'ing and playing the actual encounters, just for not switching to the OP pick of the patch.

Edited August 20, 2021 by Zychuu.7294

[Danikat.8537]

1 hour ago, Zychuu.7294 said:

Some people might don't like other specific classes to be OP, when these classes become so much more capable that there it's becoming the only standard to play given role. At this point, it's stops being about "well, they'll help me in party so good for them", and can become "I won't get into the party if I don't play that meta class for the role".

 

...it doesn't really matter that you can do well with other class, or that some people of meta class can do worse. What matter is that if you don't know that LFG person at all, it seems reasonable to want to take a 'good' class with you instead of hoping that this guy playing off-meta build is secretly just way too good with it to make up for not playing one of the OP classes.

 

If such class shows up, you are basically at disadvantage, both if it comes to LFG'ing and playing the actual encounters, just for not switching to the OP pick of the patch.

Agreed.

 

There can be a similar problem in open-world events. Obviously no one can stop someone from joining in with an open-world event, but when those exceptionally strong professions or builds are being played by people who don't 'helpfully' wait for other people to get enemies down to 1/2 health before wiping them out and instead swoop in and nuke entire groups before anyone else has a chance to tag them it can be a problem. At that point they're not helping you get loot faster, they're making it difficult or impossible for anyone else to get loot at all.

 

A common example is the escort phase of the Svanir Chief world boss in Wayfarer Foothills. If you don't know where the spawn points for the grawl are and get there well ahead of the event NPC you'll be lucky to get bronze participation from the odd ones that don't get nuked on the spawn point. Sure it doesn't matter much if you're only concerned about loot because that part only gives normal event rewards but for a new or inexperienced player it doesn't feel great to miss out on an entire phase of the event because you couldn't keep up with the people rushing through it.

 

Sometimes that's a problem with the event (I think that's definitely the case with the Svanir Chief), either the scaling needs to get better or maybe it needs something like enemies spawning in more locations and staying invulnerable while they spread out. But if many events which are otherwise fine can be totally dominated by one specific profession or build it may make more sense to change their skills than to re-work all of the events, which then risk being overwhelming if that profession isn't present.

[Genesis.5169]

1 hour ago, Danikat.8537 said:

Agreed.

 

There can be a similar problem in open-world events. Obviously no one can stop someone from joining in with an open-world event, but when those exceptionally strong professions or builds are being played by people who don't 'helpfully' wait for other people to get enemies down to 1/2 health before wiping them out and instead swoop in and nuke entire groups before anyone else has a chance to tag them it can be a problem. At that point they're not helping you get loot faster, they're making it difficult or impossible for anyone else to get loot at all.

 

A common example is the escort phase of the Svanir Chief world boss in Wayfarer Foothills. If you don't know where the spawn points for the grawl are and get there well ahead of the event NPC you'll be lucky to get bronze participation from the odd ones that don't get nuked on the spawn point. Sure it doesn't matter much if you're only concerned about loot because that part only gives normal event rewards but for a new or inexperienced player it doesn't feel great to miss out on an entire phase of the event because you couldn't keep up with the people rushing through it.

 

Sometimes that's a problem with the event (I think that's definitely the case with the Svanir Chief), either the scaling needs to get better or maybe it needs something like enemies spawning in more locations and staying invulnerable while they spread out. But if many events which are otherwise fine can be totally dominated by one specific profession or build it may make more sense to change their skills than to re-work all of the events, which then risk being overwhelming if that profession isn't present.

 

All of that stuff can we fixed with scaling or just increasing the HP of mobs.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

4 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I sometimes watch eles engage in an epic dance layering on packets of damage and conditions on a batch of mobs, count to 3, then walk over and use Arc Divider to get rid of the other half of the mobs' HP. 👍

B-But, its more fun to play if you're always having to watch your noodle HP bar for oneshots and not just tank everything and do massive damage at the same time! Don't you know Warrior is just in a horrible state? /s

 

Seriously, I main Ele and Warr, they're both great. 😛

Edited August 20, 2021 by Hannelore.8153

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Just now, Hannelore.8153 said:

B-But, its more fun to play if you're always having to watch your noodle HP bar for oneshots and not just tank everything and do massive damage at the same time! Don't you know Warrior is just in a horrible state? /s

Warrior can get one shot in PvE as well, depends on the content and how glassy the warrior is.

 

Warrior is fine in PvE, its the competitive modes where it is in a horrible state, mostly due to the poor balance decisions of the Feb2020 patch.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

1 minute ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Warrior can get one shot in PvE as well, depends on the content and how glassy the warrior is.

 

Warrior is fine in PvE, its the competitive modes where it is in a horrible state, mostly due to the poor balance decisions of the Feb2020 patch.

I guess it might be bad in sPvP, I don't play it that much. But I've always mained Warr in WvW for years, its my go-to choice for Commanding as well but I don't play it for damage so that's maybe why.

[Wolfb.7025]

Is the competitive factor.

Even if its instanced co-op group content, between dps players there is always an unspoken situation where they're competing who has the best performance (dps). Because its fun and shows how much you know about your favorite class/character.

 

However, if you're a Bannerslave main and you broke your back in order to min/maxing your dps outpot, and the next day anet comes and nerfs your class, and then buffs other classes that achieves even higher dps with so much less effort (condifbanddeadeyescofcof) then of course you're gonna get mad.

 

 

I know because I'm like this, I like to compete because it makes the grindy chores of doing daily fractals more fun and worth doing.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, Hannelore.8153 said:

I guess it might be bad in sPvP, I don't play it that much. But I've always mained Warr in WvW for years, its my go-to choice for Commanding as well but I don't play it for damage so that's maybe why.

It's easier to build a hard to kill supportive warrior than it is to build a capable damage spec for roaming. You can build one, but it lakes the sustain that other professions can bring to the table while also running high DPS numbers.

[Infusion.7149]

I play all modes, but for PVE if a class is way less sustain , range, and utility it better have top DPS. That's especially true if you are quite boon reliant (i.e. you can't generate quickness , might, fury, or alacrity). That combined with the fractal changes to make exposed do 100% condition bonus means there's potentially a huge disparity between builds. For example you might get more damage on a condi build with burning / torment than on power builds.

In that sense the 40K 8-page condi firebrand (~31K-32K on cQB) is overperforming and so is the 40-41K condi renegade (which is ~ 37K on condi RR hat provides alacrity). The reduction of ~1s of torment on shortbow this patch basically does negligible effect to the dominance of those two classes.

Scourge in particular has been an outlier as well as before torment changes I was already running it (was 28-29K benchmark) and now it's ~37K which is on par with melee-based classes with a more complicated skill rotation to reach that damage. If you look at the average scourge on most situations it actually does more damage in practice than say condi soulbeast , condi holo, or berserker. The hit to Sand Flare this patch should tone it down in terms of party sustain , however Desert Empowerment is still essentially free barriers now. Scourge is still absolutely busted on Whisper of Jormag (wurm strat), Cold War when there is Frigid Footfalls, and on Boneskinner (when you run blood magic people basically don't die to puddles).

 

If DPS was the only factor then condi daredevil (~41K) would be more popular. It isn't that popular and neither is condi weaver (~39K) because it is difficult to play, boon reliant, and super glassy. If you only look at DPS without knowing the details such as a requirement of slow uptime for Danger Time chronos to get 39K or a near perfect uptime on aegis for the core and virtues DH builds then you don't have the full picture.

Most recently the confusion nerf highlighted the amount of inaccuracy with people's assumptions because some were arguing the confusion nerf was very extreme. It was only extreme on bosses where the confusion was ticking nearly every second (SH+TL have an attack every 1.4s and on TL they can boon steal quickness), elsewhere it was about on par with other classes and it's a net improvement on things that don't attack often. When you have one class doing about 25-40% more damage than other classes it means that it puts people in the situation where that is the build you want to run there and nothing else unless you want to hamper your squad.

In summary, a discrepancy of a few thousand damage is not that big a problem, that's about 5-10% for most classes. The problem is when you have support builds (or builds that innately carry support such as firebrand, renegade, and scourge) doing as much damage as pure damage builds or when one build does 50K while the median DPS build is 25K in practice on that scenario.

Edited August 20, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Mungo Zen.9364]

16 hours ago, Genesis.5169 said:

Complain about other classes performance..when all they do when your playing next to them is help you get to loot faster..

 

This applies to.

Metas

Fotm

Raids

Strike Missions

 

This does not apply to PvP, as on a long enough time like your gonna be to fighting that said OP class and it will not be fun, this is a legit question can some one help me understand?

I think it’s twofold. 
 

on one side you have legitimate complaints about class balance. These are usually centered around player investment to produce dps, sustain or supporting others in comparison to another professions abilities.  
 

on the other side you have complaints generated by players who do not understand the mechanics of the professions (or game mode).

 

outside of that I think you get a lot of parrots spewing yesterday’s bad news about the state of the game and professions. Each patch we see posts from players upset or angry over the changes, but who haven’t actually read or understood what the changes are, or more typically, what game mode they affect.

 

I don’t think it matters what game mode(s) you enjoy most, many players are not that well versed in this games technical aspects. It’s okay to say you think something should change, as a reader it is important to gauge who is saying what and what the motivation is. 

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

Entitlement, mostly.  Though it used to be a whole lot worse on these forums in the past. 

 

There's two ways to look at other players in these multiplayer games: maximum is the default, and minimum is the default.  If you view the minimum as the default, then you're just glad for all the help you can get.  But, if you view the maximum as the default, then everyone who doesn't give it to you is now stealing your time from you, personally.  So, why was it worse in the past?  That is because the max-as-default mindset requires a substantially large population to sustain it.  Only then are teammates disposable.  

 

PVP used to be like that, too.  Might still be, because I haven't checked.  But, if it did change, it would be for the decline in population.  

[Cyninja.2954]

On 8/20/2021 at 12:18 PM, Genesis.5169 said:

Complain about other classes performance..when all they do when your playing next to them is help you get to loot faster..

 

This applies to.

Metas

Metas scale. Unless you are outscaling the event with players (aka the event stops scaling, which most do), that person next to you might actually be SLOWING down your time to loot.

On 8/20/2021 at 12:18 PM, Genesis.5169 said:

Fotm

Fractals are capped at 5 players. If a player has a certain expectation performance wise, for example for what a smooth or enjoyable run might be, he will judge other players based on that expectation.

 

As such, while every player more does help, some might help more than others, and yet others might be near useless to have around.

On 8/20/2021 at 12:18 PM, Genesis.5169 said:

Raids

Strike Missions

 

Same principle as fractals, just even more convoluted because now we are talking MANDATORY mechanics which need covering, while still subject to a limited player pool.

 

In short:

Your assumption that having another player around is always a net benefit is flawed, and that is also the answer to your question.

[Genesis.5169]

6 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Metas scale. Unless you are outscaling the event with players (aka the event stops scaling, which most do), that person next to you might actually be SLOWING down your time to loot.

Fractals are capped at 5 players. If a player has a certain expectation performance wise, for example for what a smooth or enjoyable run might be, he will judge other players based on that expectation.

 

As such, while every player more does help, some might help more than others, and yet others might be near useless to have around.

 

Same principle as fractals, just even more convoluted because now we are talking MANDATORY mechanics which need covering, while still subject to a limited player pool.

 

In short:

Your assumption that having another player around is always a net benefit is flawed, and that is also the answer to your question.

 

Way to completely misrepresent the post lmao.

[Substance E.4852]

Because people don't like feeling weak in a videogame, especially one that essentially only has one metric of "strength" (DPS)

No one wants to feel like they have to play with lead boots on because the class that appeals to them the most is objectively weaker for no apparent trade off

There's also the simple matter of not getting team slots if you're not on a "good class"

The strong class might help the weak class loot faster but why would the strong class even party with the weak class in the first place when he's the one who's going to be held back?

He'll just class stack with another "strong class" and loot even faster, leaving the weak class to sit in town

[Genesis.5169]

I'm still here reading guys thanks for the replies.

[Captain Kuro.8937]

Maybe we should start hiding the damage done in the combat section ?

 

 

If you cast Whirling Axe , only a code  will be shown in that combat section (1001).

If you have Berseker Ascended amulet ,  right to the name of the attack , it will also have the code name 100(bers)010(asc) .

The "1001 100 010" will be sent to the servers to be decoded and translate to damage .

They don't have be 100% perfect , with calculating all the +25 stacks Mights on you and your Crit Chance , but something basic like "average 4k damage done"  .

It will limit the ability to do max  damage and kill the boss  faster , but in the same we can program All bosses to  stop beeing  HP sponges and they can be killed in 4 min.

That way we can  focus on  mechanics like Sunqua Peak Fractal ,where the goal is to survive

 

In the WvWvW /PvP the old  combat section will be renamed in something else  , but stay the same .

People ofc will know which class is the best , and they can still use the KP system to form groups

 

Edit: the downside it that people enjoy big numbers .

Maybe the boss "emits placebo numbers" for each 1001 100 010 done to him?

 

 

 

Edited August 22, 2021 by Captain Kuro.8937

[Cyninja.2954]

1 hour ago, Captain Kuro.8937 said:

Maybe we should start hiding the damage done in the combat section ?

 

 

If you cast Whirling Axe , only a code  will be shown in that combat section (1001).

If you have Berseker Ascended amulet ,  right to the name of the attack , it will also have the code name 100(bers)010(asc) .

The "1001 100 010" will be sent to the servers to be decoded and translate to damage .

They don't have be 100% perfect , with calculating all the +25 stacks Mights on you and your Crit Chance , but something basic like "average 4k damage done"  .

It will limit the ability to do max  damage and kill the boss  faster , but in the same All bosses will stop beeing  HP sponges and they will be killed in 4 min. That way we can  focus on  mechanics like Sunqua Peak Fractal ,where the goal is to survive

 

In the WvWvW /PvP/ Aerodrome the old  combat section will be renamed in something else  , but stay the same .

People ofc will know which class is the best , and they can still use the KP system to form groups

 

Edit: the downside it that people enjoy big numbers .

Maybe the boss "emits placebo numbers" for each 1001 100 010 done to him?

 

 

 

I don't think you understand how sever-client communication works.

 

There is no need to hide damage numbers. Damage done IS already being calculated server side. The display in the combat log is just that: a display of what the server calculated and sent back to your client. Hiding this or not makes no difference to the calculation nor does changing it client side.

 

Averages are dependant on a set of values to find an average from. Your idea does not suggest you understand this. Giving damage done as average, found over a set period of time, versus real time has 0 effect on the actual damage done and as such would not affect kill time.

 

On the topic of hiding numbers:

That's back to the old argument of somehow knowing less is a somehow a benefit to players. We've had that in the past. It was neither better nor advisable to return to.

Edited August 22, 2021 by Cyninja.2954

[Captain Kuro.8937]

8 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

I don't think you understand how sever-client communication works.

 

There is no need to hide damage numbers. Damage done IS already being calculated server side. The display in the combat log is just that: a display of what the server calculated and sent back to your client. Hiding this or not makes no difference to the calculation nor does changing it client side.

 

Averages are dependant on a set of values to find an average from. Your idea does not suggest you understand this. Giving damage done as average, found over a set period of time, versus real time has 0 effect on the actual damage done and as such would not affect kill time.

 

On the topic of hiding numbers:

That's back to the old argument of somehow knowing less is a somehow a benefit to players. We've had that in the past. It was neither better nor advisable to return to.

Ah i thought that the calculations where done from our pc and the end result was sent there .

About average , i mean try to "normalize" the damage each person can do to the boss , so there wont be a disparity of 10k vs 33k and instead limit the HP of the boss to be killed in 4 min , regardless of each person DPS and instead focus on the survival part like that Fractal

 

 

If all classes does "average dps" and the boss can be killed in 4 min , then they wont care about actual damage done , but instead we can focus on fun mechanics/survival

If the calculation are made in the server side , then whoever did most 'internal" dps ,  he will get more personal rewards

Players that know which classes does the most dps , they can form groups of their own . Even if they have to waste 30 min looking for others , in order to kill a 4 min Boss

Edited August 22, 2021 by Captain Kuro.8937