So why is it that PvE people...

[Mini Crinny.6190]

3 hours ago, Captain Kuro.8937 said:

Ah i thought that the calculations where done from our pc and the end result was sent there .

About average , i mean try to "normalize" the damage each person can do to the boss , so there wont be a disparity of 10k vs 33k and instead limit the HP of the boss to be killed in 4 min , regardless of each person DPS and instead focus on the survival part like that Fractal

 

 

If all classes does "average dps" and the boss can be killed in 4 min , then they wont care about actual damage done , but instead we can focus on fun mechanics/survival

If the calculation are made in the server side , then whoever did most 'internal" dps ,  he will get more personal rewards

Players that know which classes does the most dps , they can form groups of their own . Even if they have to waste 30 min looking for others , in order to kill a 4 min Boss

This wouldn't really solve anything (I haven't really played the game for a while so im a bit out of the loop) but the issue for Weaver was its damage was the same roughly as other classes but Weaver dies in 1 or 2 hits, so having dps averaging the same wouldn't solve class issues

[Nephalem.8921]

11 hours ago, Captain Kuro.8937 said:

Ah i thought that the calculations where done from our pc and the end result was sent there .

About average , i mean try to "normalize" the damage each person can do to the boss , so there wont be a disparity of 10k vs 33k and instead limit the HP of the boss to be killed in 4 min , regardless of each person DPS and instead focus on the survival part like that Fractal

 

 

If all classes does "average dps" and the boss can be killed in 4 min , then they wont care about actual damage done , but instead we can focus on fun mechanics/survival

If the calculation are made in the server side , then whoever did most 'internal" dps ,  he will get more personal rewards

Players that know which classes does the most dps , they can form groups of their own . Even if they have to waste 30 min looking for others , in order to kill a 4 min Boss

The goal in fractals and raids is not mainly to survive but to kill the boss. Dying has been part of some strategies in other games.

Do you really think such a system with dps directly influencing rewards would work? Imagine the cries of the casuals if all of them get close to 0 rewards compared to the person doing 90% of the work.

Another sideeffect would be that your system would remove all difficulty to complete the content. Can just afk facetank in rp nomad gear and will still be able to clear within 4min. It makes 0 sense.

[Captain Kuro.8937]

14 hours ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

The goal in fractals and raids is not mainly to survive but to kill the boss. Dying has been part of some strategies in other games.

Do you really think such a system with dps directly influencing rewards would work? Imagine the cries of the casuals if all of them get close to 0 rewards compared to the person doing 90% of the work.

Another sideeffect would be that your system would remove all difficulty to complete the content. Can just afk facetank in rp nomad gear and will still be able to clear within 4min. It makes 0 sense.

You get extra rewards based on your personal "internal damage" . You can get the "normal " rewards for simply clearing it.

  Bannerslave/QBrand/Rangers will used as normaly as now to maximize your personal  rewards .

 

That's why i said each attack does a "base" damage that scale with your gear (offensive/defensive vs exotic/ach)

You don't hit the 4min mark ? The boss will get enrage .

But the main  goal is not them enrage , but survive

 

It's the same formula as now , but instead the goal swift from creating more hardmode bosses with the assumption you are going to do 26.000 damage for a 9 min battle , to Sunqua Peak Fractal 's fire phase - avoid mechanics (x3 times) in a 4 min .

 

If the instance it too long  and too hard , then people are going to do once or twice for the achievements and then proceed to go in easier contents for gold .

If the instance is created with the assumption that people are not going to have 25 stack of Might and no quickness  and pro player can exploit this to beat at 4min , then let's face it , it wasn't really "hardmode" but something for all people to enjoy (but they will still avoid it )

 

Edit: in the other hand , if they create them with the idea of people having 26k+25Might+Quickness in 4 min  it could work.

The majority it will still avoid , but it will be fun for the rest

 

 

 

 

Edited August 23, 2021 by Captain Kuro.8937

[Cyninja.2954]

4 hours ago, Captain Kuro.8937 said:

You get extra rewards based on your personal "internal damage" . You can get the "normal " rewards for simply clearing it.

 

Potato potato, you don't seem to realize: "normal" is perception based.

 

Normal rewards now are normal because that is what everyone gets. You expect that reward and there is near no differentiation.

 

That is not true with scaling rewards, because there is no "normal" reward. This can be perceived in other games. The moment rewards scale with performance, the maximum or reasonably achievable maximum reward would become "normal". The entire market and economy would eventually balance around it.

 

As such, players would suddenly ask: why is player XYZ getting 5 times the loot I am getting? Suddenly the current "normal" would not cut it any longer and no matter how often you'd tell them: well this is what we used to get and that player did 5 times your damage, they'd still be unhappy and feel screwed.

Edited August 23, 2021 by Cyninja.2954

[Captain Kuro.8937]

7 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Potato potato, you don't seem to realize: "normal" is perception based.

 

Normal rewards now are normal because that is what everyone gets. You expect that reward and there is near no differentiation.

 

That is not true with scaling rewards, because there is no "normal" reward. This can be perceived in other games. The moment rewards scale with performance, the maximum or reasonably achievable maximum reward would become "normal". The entire market and economy would eventually balance around it.

 

As such, players would suddenly ask: why is player XYZ getting 5 times the loot I am getting? Suddenly the current "normal" would not cut it any longer and no matter how often you'd tell them: well this is what we used to get and that player did 5 times your damage, they'd still be unhappy and feel screwed.

 

1g normal runs , for a 4min fight

3g with 26k dps

Make each instances have a reward  lockout for  for  180 min  (which both normal and hard should share) . Try another instance in the meanwhile .

 

We reward players for getting good . And not tell them to get "good" and then join us

 

 

edit: Make it so that in normal modes the most gold you can get is 1-1.4 , based on perfomance , so they don't get wrong  idea of they must invite every META build on the planet . (if the have 8x stack of might all the time + Berseker gear -Carrior , they will get max gold )

While in hardmode it's 2.6-3,2g .

Whoever wants gold vs relaxation  , he can go to the appropriate LFG section

 

 

 

Edited August 23, 2021 by Captain Kuro.8937

[Nash.2681]

27 minutes ago, Captain Kuro.8937 said:

 

1g normal runs , for a 4min fight

3g with 26k dps

Make each instances have a reward  lockout for  for  180 min  (which both normal and hard should share) . Try another instance in the meanwhile .

 

We reward players for getting good . And not tell them to get "good" and then join us

 

 

edit: Make it so that in normal modes the most gold you can get is 1-1.4 , based on perfomance , so they don't get wrong  idea of they must invite every META build on the planet . (if the have 8x stack of might all the time + Berseker gear -Carrior , they will get max gold )

While in hardmode it's 2.6-3,2g .

Whoever wants gold vs relaxation  , he can go to the appropriate LFG section

 

 

 

Meanwhile in the lfg: "druid/hfb/any support char lf [insert any content you're talking about here], 2g or highest bid"

[Captain Kuro.8937]

7 hours ago, Nash.2681 said:

Meanwhile in the lfg: "druid/hfb/any support char lf [insert any content you're talking about here], 2g or highest bid"

I don't believe there are shortage of healers .

They simply have stopped because Guardians are better at everything

(maybe they should get a  a downscaled Quickness Version (25%) that is used to extent the Enginners-Harbinger's one?

Or generally reduce quickness to 15% per different classes and rename them differently (can stack to 75%) , so we more variety . Full stacked teams with 75% Quickness + 25x Might vs QuickBursters + 25x Might ?)

Edited August 23, 2021 by Captain Kuro.8937

[Nash.2681]

36 minutes ago, Captain Kuro.8937 said:

I don't believe there are shortage of healers .

They simply have stopped because Guardians are better at everything

(maybe they should get a  a downscaled Quickness Version (25%) that is used to extent the Enginners-Harbinger's one?

Or generally reduce quickness to 15% per different classes and rename them differently (can stack to 75%) , so we more variety . Full stacked teams with 75% Quickness + 25x Might vs QuickBursters + 25x Might ?)

You didn't understand what I mean. If the whole reward system gets shifted to "more dps = better rewards", why would anyone still want to do the support jobs?

[Captain Kuro.8937]

8 hours ago, Nash.2681 said:

You didn't understand what I mean. If the whole reward system gets shifted to "more dps = better rewards", why would anyone still want to do the support jobs?

More dps =>more rewards is  for people that haven't mastered their dps rotation .

Supports atm can reach almost the same dps as the rest .

Its an incentive mechanic

 

If they feel they have mastered their class and want more gold , they can join the hardcore runs .

Their problems there ,  will be the KP and  dying once

 

Edited August 23, 2021 by Captain Kuro.8937

[Chrysaliss.8720]

Its quite simple.

 

If class A deals 10k dps and class B does 11k dps. People will tend to prefer class B over class A, therefore people who enjoy plaing class A will be left behind in favor of people playing class B.

 

Lets take the new Willbender elite spec for example. It will never be widely used PvE dps class simply because Dragonhunter already exists. So if you join as a Willbender, you will receive a pushback from other players in the party to swap to Dragonhunter. And if you refuse you may be removed from the party.

 

So the difference in DPS matters very much, because it limits the players ability to play the class they want in the game mode they want, because that class is inferior to other classes.

Edited August 23, 2021 by Chrysaliss.8720

[Nash.2681]

8 hours ago, Captain Kuro.8937 said:

More dps =>more rewards is  for people that haven't mastered their dps rotation .

Supports atm can reach almost the same dps as the rest .

Its an incentive mechanic

 

If they feel they have mastered their class and want more gold , they can join the hardcore runs .

Their problems there ,  will be the KP and  dying once

 

You're really trying to compare druids, hfb, healtempest dealing somewhere between 1-4k depending on the encounter but totally doing their job, with bad dps players dealing 7-10k and call that "almost the same"? Ok, go ahead, but don't expect any serious discussion here 😅

[Captain Kuro.8937]

8 hours ago, Nash.2681 said:

You're really trying to compare druids, hfb, healtempest dealing somewhere between 1-4k depending on the encounter but totally doing their job, with bad dps players dealing 7-10k and call that "almost the same"? Ok, go ahead, but don't expect any serious discussion here 😅

 

Don't worry , healers will exist , just like the first Strike Missions or WvW .

Offensive (Bersk) + Achend + 8x stacks of Might  will give them a portion of the rewards , and even the Devs are looking for a way to give more rewards to Supports , or they can use attacks  that have been "averaged" now that the max and low spectrum are not too widespread .

 

Even so , if they can get 1g for normal completion and 20silver for the Gear and 10s from the small  damage they have done done  , and the max gold you can get in easy mode  is 1,4g , then i bet they won't worry about doing more dps for the extra 10 silver .

They will be focused to "carry" the group and survive.

This is what happens in Tier 3 .

 

 

Normalize-minimize each person damage (1000-2000) , so the boss dies in a predictable way will be killed in 4 min , and we can focus on survibility/tactics . If you can get your "internal" dps to 20k , you gain rewards (in Hardmode is extra 1.25g for max damage  + 1,25g for having offensive Gear +1.5 for killing the 4min boss) .

 

Edit: if there are lack of interest of Healers from the Hardmode , then the community will choose 2x "Defensive Sets" that when equipped will give bonus rewards and count as "offensive" , for their lack of dps .

(One of them will be the Commander , or now we shifted towards Runes of Firebrand+ 10% sigil?)

 

(common , it's not rocket science)

 

Edited August 23, 2021 by Captain Kuro.8937

[Obtena.7952]

5 hours ago, Chrysaliss.8720 said:

Its quite simple.

 

If class A deals 10k dps and class B does 11k dps. People will tend to prefer class B over class A, therefore people who enjoy plaing class A will be left behind in favor of people playing class B.

 

Lets take the new Willbender elite spec for example. It will never be widely used PvE dps class simply because Dragonhunter already exists. So if you join as a Willbender, you will receive a pushback from other players in the party to swap to Dragonhunter. And if you refuse you may be removed from the party.

 

So the difference in DPS matters very much, because it limits the players ability to play the class they want in the game mode they want, because that class is inferior to other classes.

Sure, true if the ONLY thing that is a factor in what people choose to play or their performance in a team is DPS. Fortunately that's not the case as there are other factors that many players use to choose a class to play ... and many factors that many teams consider to choose teammates. Therefore, the scenario you outline isn't absolutely true. 

Edited August 23, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[ButterPeanut.9746]

26 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Sure, true if the ONLY thing that is a factor in what people choose to play or their performance in a team is DPS. Fortunately that's not the case as there are other factors that many players use to choose a class to play ... and many factors that many teams consider to choose teammates. Therefore, the scenario you outline isn't absolutely true. 

In fact, the scenario they described is actually more false than true. DPS classes often bring CC, certain boons, vuln, mobility (see last raid tournament and how important thief was), etc. Looking strictly at a benchmark you would only see DPS weavers in raids, but you don't. As long as everything is in the same ballpark, then personal preference, personal skill, utility, etc wins out, which is how it should be. 

[Janitsu.6284]

On 8/20/2021 at 1:18 PM, Genesis.5169 said:

Complain about other classes performance..when all they do when your playing next to them is help you get to loot faster..

 

This applies to.

Metas

Fotm

Raids

Strike Missions

 

This does not apply to PvP, as on a long enough time like your gonna be to fighting that said OP class and it will not be fun, this is a legit question can some one help me understand?

why do pvp people complain when they can just all play an op class SKSKSKSKSKSKSK 😎😎🤣🤣🤣🤣🤨😗😛🥱😫😪😯🤐

[The Boz.2038]

Ah, yes, the "groups pay for healers" meta. Sure smells like 2000 in here.

[Vilin.8056]

Sure...

As if PvP players don't complain when they lose center to opponent in 4v2, or suffering a lose streak when they kept running into other player with PvE builds.

 

Or as if WvW players don't complain when their zerg turn 180 in a charge, or placing sieges prints on all the wrong spots.

 

And above all else, as if these players don't ditch a raid instance if the squad kept failing due to player errors on the basic level.

 

Bad players always excuse entitlement as helping.

Edited August 24, 2021 by Vilin.8056

[Genesis.5169]

9 hours ago, Vilin.8056 said:

Sure...

As if PvP players don't complain when they lose center to opponent in 4v2, or suffering a lose streak when they kept running into other player with PvE builds.

 

Or as if WvW players don't complain when their zerg turn 180 in a charge, or placing sieges prints on all the wrong spots.

 

And above all else, as if these players don't ditch a raid instance if the squad kept failing due to player errors on the basic level.

 

Bad players always excuse entitlement as helping.

 

Honestly, people getting mad at other people in a competitive PvP environment where you losing to some other play who people you with his brain and hands make's alot more sense then getting mad at some one in a non competitive environment where your on the same team with the same goals and the guy you fighting is just code.

 

Its very different when there a real person on the otherside beating you then imagine if that same guy began to kitten talk you. I'd imagine you get a little salty. Now imagine if that class was actually OP and the guy who beat didn't beat you with his skill but with the OP nature of the class, I'd imagine you would be livid because your losing to something out of your control. This is not the same as fighting in PvE in any game mode.

Edited August 24, 2021 by Genesis.5169

[Vilin.8056]

25 minutes ago, Genesis.5169 said:

Honestly, people getting mad at other people in a competitive PvP environment where you losing to some other play who people you with his brain and hands make's alot more sense then getting mad at some one in a non competitive environment where your on the same time with the same goals and the guy you fighting is just code.

 

Its very different when there a real person on the otherside beating you then imagine if that same guy began to kitten talk you. I'd imagine you get a little salty. Now imagine if that class was actually OP and the guy who beat didn't beat you with his skill but with the OP nature of the class, I'd imagine you would be livid because your losing to something out of your control. This is not the same as fighting in PvE in any game mode.

And yet in a PvE environment you brought the whole squad down by losing performance to a BOT that has

1. Medium to large sized hit box

2. No brain

3. Gives 3 seconds headroom on almost every attack

In a squad setting that gives you a dedicated healer and full boon support, yet struggling to output a 15k dps that is way below even half of a class' ideal output, only later to create a topic to attack a whole community due to your own mistakes.

 

I'd have more condolence to any entry PvP players than this.

[Genesis.5169]

1 hour ago, Vilin.8056 said:

And yet in a PvE environment you brought the whole squad down by losing performance to a BOT that has

1. Medium to large sized hit box

2. No brain

3. Gives 3 seconds headroom on almost every attack

In a squad setting that gives you a dedicated healer and full boon support, yet struggling to output a 15k dps that is way below even half of a class' ideal output, only later to create a topic to attack a whole community due to your own mistakes.

 

I'd have more condolence to any entry PvP players than this.

 

I'm not attacking anyone i was defending pvp, all i did was ask a question your the one getting defensive.

[Vilin.8056]

3 minutes ago, Genesis.5169 said:

I'm not attacking anyone i was defending pvp, all i did was ask a question your the one getting defensive.

Yes you are, you attacked a whole PvE community with your topic.

This is not a player help player thread, but an accusation thread.

[Genesis.5169]

Just now, Vilin.8056 said:

Yes you are, you attacked a whole PvE community with your topic.

This is not a player help player thread, but an accusation thread.

 

If you may grace me with your answer, what is my accusation of the PvE community.

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, Genesis.5169 said:

 

If you may grace me with your answer, what is my accusation of the PvE community.

You honestly don't see why it's accusatory to ask why PVE players care about class performance because in your view, PVE only consists of collecting loot bags? You can't think of a single reason on your own? The thread is just begging for an argument. 

Edited August 24, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Cyninja.2954]

2 hours ago, Genesis.5169 said:

 

If you may grace me with your answer, what is my accusation of the PvE community.

 

There is a difference between questioning competitiveness in a PvE environment, and certainly everyone is entitled to their opinion on this matter, and not understanding or denying it.

 

You entire topic is full of:

- oversimplification to a degree which is harmful to any form of meaningful discussion

- incorrect assumptions about performance in PvE and loot distribution (even making it necessary for others to bring up changes to rewards to even remotely make the claims or question you put forth applicable)

- judgemental undertone against players who enjoy improving their performance in PvE

 

Now you might indeed not understand this, or the multiple comments which pointed to this, and your comparison to Spvp was poor at best (why are you defending Spvp in your PvE thread?).

 

The reasons for player behavior in either mode remain the similar though, no matter if you understand them or not:

- less loot (or none)

- less fun at the game

- expectations in others performance

Edited August 24, 2021 by Cyninja.2954

[Fangoth.4503]

On 8/20/2021 at 11:18 AM, Genesis.5169 said:

all they do when your playing next to them is help you get to loot faster..

and makes fights easier