Dragonhunter and trapper rune nerfs are WAY WAY WAY overdue

[Exile.8160]

On 9/1/2021 at 2:43 PM, Guirssane.7082 said:

Core Guard isn't bad at all but it's far from being super strong indeed

 

Pretty much, its been a meh build for long. Most guards main would love a non DH guards build for the longest time. 

[De Bourgogne.9642]

3 hours ago, Exile.8160 said:

 

Pretty much, its been a meh build for long. Most guards main would love a non DH guards build for the longest time. 

Well core guard is the only guard spec that isn't absolute disaster of a design so it is fitting that core guard is the meta guard spec in PvP. And as it turns out core guard is very much meta.

[Exile.8160]

46 minutes ago, McPero.3287 said:

Well core guard is the only guard spec that isn't absolute disaster of a design so it is fitting that core guard is the meta guard spec in PvP. And as it turns out core guard is very much meta.

 

Was talking about a core Dps build which we dont really have a meta one. ( DH is a meme and will prob get nerf into the ground like FB leaving us again with just core).

Edited September 3, 2021 by Exile.8160

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

The problem with Rune of the Trapper is that it allows offensive utilities to double as defensive ones with no trade-off.

 

Normally, a DPS-oriented build needs to take a couple stunbreaks or other defensive utilities to be viable.  But with Trapper Runes, the player is able to stock up on purely offensive utilities that suddenly grant very powerful defensive abilities (i.e., stealth).  There's no drop off in damage for this, either; indeed, a player's damage potential is INCREASED because it is now easier to drop traps in the middle of combat without being  severely punished for it.

 

This, in combination with DH's already very high damage potential, can feel oppressive.  Anyone who's played PVP for any length of time has seen a DH wipe an entire team singlehandedly.  This *can* be due to the opponents being noob, but it is just as likely from the DH being skilled.  People trying to dumb it down to "just dodge true shot" (which is much easier said than done when its coming from stealth) or "don't walk into traps" grossly oversimplify the dynamics of a real fight and aren't giving the DH player nearly enough credit for what they are able to do to land their skills.  

 

Somebody made the observation that DH isn't seen in high level tournament play.  That's true, and you can rightly conclude that DH trapper isn't "meta".  That does not, however, mean it's OK or that nothing needs to be done about it.  While its true that, at the very highest levels, there may be better builds available, it is also true that DH can be an absolute terror at lower levels (e.g. gold and below).  Recall that these lower levels represent the majority of the PvP community, and their gaming experience is important, too.  Having something than can straight up delete players and wipe teams in a way that other builds can't isn't healthy for the game mode.  

 

While tweaking DH's numbers could be in order, I think either nerfing or straight up removing Trapper Rune would be the place to start.  DH likely wouldn't feel nearly as oppressive (despite its very high damage) if it were forced to play honestly and couldn't rely on stealth to survive.

 

[De Bourgogne.9642]

On 9/3/2021 at 6:54 PM, Exile.8160 said:

 

Was talking about a core Dps build which we dont really have a meta one. ( DH is a meme and will prob get nerf into the ground like FB leaving us again with just core).

DH is not a meme, yeah you won't exactly play it in competitive but saying stuff like DH only works below plat is an absolute joke. DH is very good at carrying ranked no matter the rating. Hopefully its put into dirt where it belongs together with FB. And you get a core build or willbender. Though you already have support so, nothing to complain about.

[Leonidrex.5649]

On 8/29/2021 at 4:32 AM, greedywholesome.9081 said:

DH with trapper runes is a bigger threat than trapper ranger ALTHOUGH a trapper ranger can beat a DH on the same runes 1v1 if specced correctly. 

 

Condi trapper ranger build is ok but power is slightly better because shortbow is garbage. 

well, condi ranger can just sic a pet at trapper DH, sure the pet will die but it will waste the traps and keep constantly revealing the DH, which is why ranger has the upper hand
Its the same reason why trapper ranger kinda sucks, as any other non-trapper variant just sics a pet on you, and you lose.

[Leonidrex.5649]

On 8/23/2021 at 10:25 AM, Cynz.9437 said:

I honestly think DH would be in better place if stealth was removed from trapper rune. Then maybe Anet would focus more on making DH viable (w/o making it broken) than just nerf it because of a rune (how it usually happens).

this is wishful thinking, I bet every mirage player thought the same thing every time they read about 50% nerf, yet here we are.
with CI removed from the game, condi amulets removed from the game, bleed trait nerfed by 50%, staff ambush nerfed by 50%
clone gen on scepter nerfed by 50%, staff by 33%, half a dodge bar gone, pistol stun duration reduction, chaos field nerf and trait cd increase and I bet 20 other hard nerfs that I just dont remember off the top of my head.

[RedAvenged.5217]

3 hours ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

well, condi ranger can just sic a pet at trapper DH, sure the pet will die but it will waste the traps and keep constantly revealing the DH, which is why ranger has the upper hand
Its the same reason why trapper ranger kinda sucks, as any other non-trapper variant just sics a pet on you, and you lose.

The pets will die, a trapper ranger just needs to not be an idiot who tanks damage from other rangers. At that point who even cares about the other ranger builds as a smart trap ranger can still match up and do other stuff besides being a side node monkey.

[greedywholesome.9081]

4 hours ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

this is wishful thinking, I bet every mirage player thought the same thing every time they read about 50% nerf, yet here we are.
with CI removed from the game, condi amulets removed from the game, bleed trait nerfed by 50%, staff ambush nerfed by 50%
clone gen on scepter nerfed by 50%, staff by 33%, half a dodge bar gone, pistol stun duration reduction, chaos field nerf and trait cd increase and I bet 20 other hard nerfs that I just dont remember off the top of my head.

They've done the same with Eles but I believe Mesmers got the worst end of the stick (I play both). They treat it like a discarded side-piece. Such a beautiful and elegant class before the expansions. I played core shatter burst (still do sometimes)  and condi PU. 

 

I dont get the nerfs. Maybe Mesmers owe Anet some money from that one payday loan years ago

[lightDestroyer.1265]

On 9/1/2021 at 5:44 PM, TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:

DH with trapper runes I would not call OP (as it is now), I think however most people find it annoying, like most stealth builds in the game and most people are not used to Guard having lots of access to mobility via superspeed meaning it actually has a chance to disengage.

I don't see trapper rune builds very often in WvW/PvP or DH much at all anymore, I play DH without trapper runes and often times not even running a single trap and I can't remember the last time I lost to a trapper build without it being a +1. I will say that I would be totally fine with trapper runes being nerfed or removed, however I also would expect to see the few DHs out there to probably trade it in for another class.

 

I also don't think DH NEEDS buffs to account for the loss of trapper runes, I would like to see some bug and weapon fixes however and then look at where it ends up in the meta after. Two main ones I would like to see are scepter tracking and hammer, with the swiftness/superspeed meta hammer often requires precasting and a utility to land it's burst.

Curious to know what weapons you use and your utilities. 

[TinkTinkPOOF.9201]

9 hours ago, lightDestroyer.1265 said:

Curious to know what weapons you use and your utilities. 

 

That changes depending on mood and what I am often running into, however in most cases I am running scepter/focus and GS. Utilities are CoP, JI, WoR, however WoR might be changed out from time to time but I roam and this is more or less a full melee build because scepter tracking is so bad outside of point blank range, so I need something to mitigate range, which is king in roaming and what I have to deal with the most, as it's almost all ranger, engi, thief these days. This might change if I am fighting a necro, as they just shutdown melee builds hard.

 

 

[Exile.8160]

19 hours ago, McPero.3287 said:

DH is not a meme, yeah you won't exactly play it in competitive but saying stuff like DH only works below plat is an absolute joke. DH is very good at carrying ranked no matter the rating. Hopefully its put into dirt where it belongs together with FB. And you get a core build or willbender. Though you already have support so, nothing to complain about.

 

So becuse we have a support build we cant have anything else? meanwhile necros have every single spec viable for them.

 

Also yes DH is a meme deny it all you want, it wont change anything. In high gold and low plat theres isnt many of them and in plat 2 and up they are straigh up farmable by the enemy team. 

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

 

3 minutes ago, Exile.8160 said:

Also yes DH is a meme deny it all you want, it wont change anything. In high gold and low plat theres isnt many of them and in plat 2 and up they are straigh up farmable by the enemy team. 

 

That may be true, but that doesn't mean that DH can't be both prevalent and toxic at lower levels:

21 hours ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Somebody made the observation that DH isn't seen in high level tournament play.  That's true, and you can rightly conclude that DH trapper isn't "meta".  That does not, however, mean it's OK or that nothing needs to be done about it.  While its true that, at the very highest levels, there may be better builds available, it is also true that DH can be an absolute terror at lower levels (e.g. gold and below).  Recall that these lower levels represent the majority of the PvP community, and their gaming experience is important, too.  Having something than can straight up delete players and wipe teams in a way that other builds can't isn't healthy for the game mode.  

 

[Ronald McDonald.8165]

36 minutes ago, Exile.8160 said:

 

So becuse we have a support build we cant have anything else? meanwhile necros have every single spec viable for them.

 

Also yes DH is a meme deny it all you want, it wont change anything. In high gold and low plat theres isnt many of them and in plat 2 and up they are straigh up farmable by the enemy team. 

Crazy how Naru has been playing it for 3 seasons p3+ and calls it one of the best builds for ranked ...

 

Don't worry I'll be sure to tell him he was wrong cause the guy on the forum said so.

Edited September 7, 2021 by Ronald McDonald.8165

[Exile.8160]

1 hour ago, Ronald McDonald.8165 said:

Crazy how Naru has been playing it for 3 seasons p3+ and calls it one of the best builds for ranked ...

 

Don't worry I'll be sure to tell him he was wrong cause the guy on the forum said so.

 

 Funny how that this argument is valid but when we say there's no DH in AT winning teams its not valid lol.

 

Dont worry I'll be sure to let them know a guy in the  forums said this.

[Exile.8160]

1 hour ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

 

 

That may be true, but that doesn't mean that DH can't be both prevalent and toxic at lower levels:

 

 

See here the problem, they come here to complain we suggest ways they can improve vs the build because it has many flaws. Yet they still cry nerfs because its easier.

[Ronald McDonald.8165]

11 minutes ago, Exile.8160 said:

 

 Funny how that this argument is valid but when we say there's no DH in AT winning teams its not valid lol.

 

Dont worry I'll be sure to let them know a guy in the  forums said this.

Funny that people don't understand how things work different in practiced, voice coordinated, pre selected team compositions as opposed to completely random teammates without instant communication. 

 

It's almost as though ranked and tournament metas are different ::mindblown::

Edited September 7, 2021 by Ronald McDonald.8165

[Exile.8160]

2 minutes ago, Ronald McDonald.8165 said:

Funny that people don't understand how things work different in voice coordinated, pre selected team compositions as opposed to completely random teammates without instant communication. 

 

 

 

Without instant communication? What about the "Mark Target" option that marks the enemy with a Big Red target on its head? is that not a thing? 

 

[Leonidrex.5649]

44 minutes ago, Exile.8160 said:

 

Without instant communication? What about the "Mark Target" option that marks the enemy with a Big Red target on its head? is that not a thing? 

 

mark target is different from " im going to teleport on him in 2s with thief and kill him in 1,5s before he can do anything "

[Exile.8160]

1 hour ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

mark target is different from " im going to teleport on him in 2s with thief and kill him in 1,5s before he can do anything "

 

Dont really need too much communication to kill a squishy target now do we right?

 

In your example the thief goes for the kill alone, you dont even need to say it. The funny thing is a theif can kill a DH that fast lol. 

 

A DH can be pressure by 1 person enough to be useless becuase of his 11k health! The problem here is people ignorn it after the first stealth then die to it and complain.

 

 

[Ronald McDonald.8165]

Just now, Exile.8160 said:

 

Dont really need too much communication to kill a squishy target now do we right?

 

In your example the thief goes for the kill alone, you dont even need to say it. The funny thing is a theif can kill a DH that fast lol. 

 

A DH can be pressure by 1 person enough to be useless becuase of his 11k health! The problem here is people ignorn it after the first stealth then die to it and complain.

 

 

 Are you seriously going to try to minimize the discrepancy between fully coordinated teams and your group of randos calling each other every name in the book?

 

Is this actually something you want to debate? Please, for your sake just take the L and move on. 

[Exile.8160]

15 minutes ago, Ronald McDonald.8165 said:

 Are you seriously going to try to minimize the discrepancy between fully coordinated teams and your group of randos calling each other every name in the book?

 

Is this actually something you want to debate? Please, for your sake just take the L and move on. 

 

Why are you even here? This is a place of discussion there is no win or lose. 

 

Doesnt matter if a team is fully in comunication or not. A single person is enough to pressure a DH into uselessness because they are in either defense mode or offense there almost no inbetween with an 11k hp build. 

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

 

1 hour ago, Exile.8160 said:

A single person is enough to pressure a DH into uselessness because they are in either defense mode or offense there almost no inbetween with an 11k hp build. 

The problem is that, with Trapper Rune, DH is employing both offense and defense at the same time:

On 9/6/2021 at 12:56 PM, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

The problem with Rune of the Trapper is that it allows offensive utilities to double as defensive ones with no trade-off.

 

Normally, a DPS-oriented build needs to take a couple stunbreaks or other defensive utilities to be viable.  But with Trapper Runes, the player is able to stock up on purely offensive utilities that suddenly grant very powerful defensive abilities (i.e., stealth).  There's no drop off in damage for this, either; indeed, a player's damage potential is INCREASED because it is now easier to drop traps in the middle of combat without being  severely punished for it.

This isn't unique to DH, btw; it's the same problem with trapper ranger, too.  The rune is the problem more so than the DH/ranger or the traps themselves.

[Shrapnel.7249]

I hope they bake Stealth and Invis into DH traits so we can all move on. DH gets “a buff.” Runes won’t be OP. People continue to feed because we aren’t all esport gamers, and the world turns on.

[Leonidrex.5649]

9 hours ago, Exile.8160 said:

 

Dont really need too much communication to kill a squishy target now do we right?

 

In your example the thief goes for the kill alone, you dont even need to say it. The funny thing is a theif can kill a DH that fast lol. 

 

A DH can be pressure by 1 person enough to be useless becuase of his 11k health! The problem here is people ignorn it after the first stealth then die to it and complain.

 

 

You misunderstand me, thief alone wont do kitten to DH, what they WILL do is teleport together with revenant, with quickness, and unblockable stun with venom, deal 60-70% of his HP instantly, while revealing him ( so he cant trap to stealth )
and leave him in a state where if he doesnt have a stun-break ( which they usually run 1 ) he is instantly dead with 0 counterplay, and if he does he has to use it and instantly invuln, as thief wont let him cast any traps to stealth or heal to heal, while rev will kick his teeth in.
It creates a scenario, where at any point he can just be jumped and has to have 2 long cooldowns to survive, if not hes dead and its 4v5 GG WP