Suggestion for countering permastealth thieves/dead-eyes.

[subversiontwo.7501]

3 minutes ago, shrew.3059 said:

 

While I see where you are coming from, stunbreaks are a counter to all professions and have a use in PvE as well. What you are suggesting would primarily target a single profession in PvP/WvW that was designed around it. My reticence has less to do with the feeling that it would break Thieves, and more to do with the suspicion it would not satisfy the complaints. If it were baked into a utility with a moderate cooldown, it would be highly situational and would require a lot of skill to use well. I don’t think skilled players are having a lot of problems with a single use of Stealth, so it would give them additional advantages they don’t need and do nothing to help the survivability of those complaining loudest.

Fair remarks.

For me, much of this has more to do with moving the balance of stealth onto the actual class balance of stealth. I mean, the same reservation you have about "one class" can be said about the supplies, towers and such as well. Then I think there is more to the whole "one class" discussion but for whatever purpose this has I am far more interested in the getting rid of the whole "balance outside of actual balance, which makes the actual balance much harder to see" issue with the band-aids Anet slapped on instead of attempting to balance classes with class balance.

[Keitaro Dragonheart.9047]

Oh look, another thread crying about thieves. Imagine my surprise. 🙄

[Dangus.6572]

On 8/24/2021 at 8:56 PM, Xenesis.6389 said:

Starts off by stating thieves are weak.

Ends with one shot thief build.

🙄

I'll elaborate to you what does that mean.

 

running with 12k hp. To land backstab is difficult, and usually it ends with 8k of dmg. Meantime you eat all condi dmg, all AOE, CC. Spend most defences and initiative. Thief is not weak, I never said that. All I say that every class now is a thief. Every class can have oneshot builds, every class is mobile, has access  to stealth or reveal. To survive all this - stealth is not a remedy. So stop saying that Thief  + stealth is something OP. It is not. I met lots of good players with certain builds who eat me for breakfast on 1 v 1. And there are builds which I kill easy. Do not twist my words.

[shrew.3059]

The other day, two Thieves were inside a Garrison causing a fuss, breaking siege and very occasionally picking off AFK players. One Thief was less skilled and could be regularly killed, but the other was very good and escaped most of the time, only to Portal his buddy back inside. This went on for more than an hour!

 

Three things occurred to me:

 

1. If we had ignored them, they probably would have gotten bored and left. Once we decided to “get those Thieves” we were emotionally committed to a rather difficult task with little upside. It felt like Stealth was overpowered but it’s worth asking what that power was really accomplishing. They could flee and re-engage, but it was more annoying than game-breaking.

 

2. As a Thief myself, I was impressed at how consistently they managed to evade capture in a situation where it would have been easy to misjudge a move and die. And if they both died, end of story. As evidenced by the skill difference between the two Thieves, what they did was not easy. It’s critical to separate what the average person can do with a skill and what the best players can do.

 

3. Their survival was largely due to our disorganisation; we spread out making ourselves vulnerable to 2v1, which they could flee on their terms, and it took 30m for us to even start using traps . Even then, we weren’t really trapping strategically where they tended to disappear, nor did we coordinate in any way. When we finally caught them it was due to their slip up; they picked a target too close to help and the better Thief was targeted. Their longevity was definitely a learn2play issue for us. 

[ASP.8093]

The other day, I threw a Target Painter into a guy's Shadow Refuge and he popped out of stealth and got killed by a pew-pew ranger before he could figure out what was happening.

 

These forums focus way too much on whether or not Target Painter "counters" stealth. The correct answer is: if you learn how to use Target Painter, you're gonna have FUN.

[Caedmon.6798]

9 hours ago, kamikharzeeh.8016 said:

i mean which sane person would 1v1 a thief on a zergbuild? alone because if u could kill them, chances are good there's two more nearby that come to gank you. so ofc, i do port there. no sense making challenge to play by their rules. same as u do by running away with a billion of shadowsteps and ports and permastealth

 

the blobs are mostly wiping to other blobs in one push bc they're so squishy and support so slacking

 

u smallscale people believing u should be able to wipe 50 guys with your ranger or thief is just amazing, every single time.

And where did i ever say i expect to wipe 50 guys on my own ? Dont start making kitten up now.

[Caedmon.6798]

8 hours ago, shrew.3059 said:

The other day, two Thieves were inside a Garrison causing a fuss, breaking siege and very occasionally picking off AFK players. One Thief was less skilled and could be regularly killed, but the other was very good and escaped most of the time, only to Portal his buddy back inside. This went on for more than an hour!

 

Three things occurred to me:

 

1. If we had ignored them, they probably would have gotten bored and left. Once we decided to “get those Thieves” we were emotionally committed to a rather difficult task with little upside. It felt like Stealth was overpowered but it’s worth asking what that power was really accomplishing. They could flee and re-engage, but it was more annoying than game-breaking.

 

2. As a Thief myself, I was impressed at how consistently they managed to evade capture in a situation where it would have been easy to misjudge a move and die. And if they both died, end of story. As evidenced by the skill difference between the two Thieves, what they did was not easy. It’s critical to separate what the average person can do with a skill and what the best players can do.

 

3. Their survival was largely due to our disorganisation; we spread out making ourselves vulnerable to 2v1, which they could flee on their terms, and it took 30m for us to even start using traps . Even then, we weren’t really trapping strategically where they tended to disappear, nor did we coordinate in any way. When we finally caught them it was due to their slip up; they picked a target too close to help and the better Thief was targeted. Their longevity was definitely a learn2play issue for us. 

in a case like that,especially when you have multiple people you make use of stealth traps and mark throw and it should be over. But its a thing i also see happening on my server where people dont use disablers while they should,dont use traps while they should etc,its on them. Just communicate with the ones trying to get the thief. A good thief knows how to perm stealth easily,a baddie as the one you described aswell will get caught out easily. Lay down the traps on places you know the thief will walk by, especially when you know he's about to port people in ,lay them on walls. You can run around on your mount with the mark throw in your hand,jump off and insta throw when you see him aswell. It cannot be dodged or be ignored in any way. A proper 30 sec reveal will make him either leave the tower or keep,or youre able to put on enough pressure that he gets down. Otherwise, a thief that doesnt wanna be seen,wont be seen. Make use of what you have available,people can also slot some reveals in this case.

Edited August 28, 2021 by Caedmon.6798

[Sleepwalker.1398]

5 hours ago, ASP.8093 said:

The other day, I threw a Target Painter into a guy's Shadow Refuge and he popped out of stealth and got killed by a pew-pew ranger before he could figure out what was happening.

 

These forums focus way too much on whether or not Target Painter "counters" stealth. The correct answer is: if you learn how to use Target Painter, you're gonna have FUN.

That is considered luck that a pew pew ranger was around.

It he wasn't, would you (by yourself) have been able to kill or chase him?

[ASP.8093]

38 minutes ago, Sleepwalker.1398 said:

That is considered luck that a pew pew ranger was around.

It he wasn't, would you (by yourself) have been able to kill or chase him?

Yes. Kill.

 

(This was the first stage of a 2v3 so we weren't exactly wasting time chasing him in the first place. Just needed him out of the way fast before his buddies were on top of me.)

Edited August 28, 2021 by ASP.8093

[Sobx.1758]

On 8/22/2021 at 5:37 PM, Ronin.4501 said:

I suggest to counter perma-stealth thieves and dead-eyes, for every 2-4s (I'm open to suggestions for the duration at which blight is acquired) a thief/dead-eye is stealthed, they acquire 1 stack of blight, or another new corruption similar to stealth such as a confusion-type blight.  This would make stealth more of a risk/reward feature the way overheating affects Holosmoths and blight affects Harbingers.

No problem. As soon as every necro build/spec will keep receiving 1 stack of blight for every 2-4s of having any amount of lifeforce. This would make necro mechanic more of a risk/reward feature instead of it serving the purpose of 3rd weapon swap with 2nd healthbar or a fuel for simultaniously spamming out constant dmg+barrier AOEs.

Now that sounds fair. (but lets not forget about every other mechanic like aegis, invuln states and so on -just slap blight stacks on everything that somehow makes each of the classes playable and we're all set)

Edited August 28, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Burial.1958]

 

On 8/22/2021 at 5:37 PM, Ronin.4501 said:

With the new specializations recently beta-tested, Anet added a new corruption; blight. 

 

I suggest to counter perma-stealth thieves and dead-eyes, for every 2-4s (I'm open to suggestions for the duration at which blight is acquired) a thief/dead-eye is stealthed, they acquire 1 stack of blight, or another new corruption similar to stealth such as a confusion-type blight.  This would make stealth more of a risk/reward feature the way overheating affects Holosmoths and blight affects Harbingers.

 

I'm sure the thief/dead-eye crowd will hate it, but after 9 years of dealing with a broken mechanic and 5 years of dealing with a broken class (dead-eyes), I think it's time Anet did something.

 

That would delete the class completely. Bad suggestion in my eyes.

[Wreckdum.8367]

Y'all acting like stealth is the real issue in WvW and not classes with infinite dodge/blink/teleport.  Unlimited mobility builds are much worse.  Ranger/thief/mesmer are the main culprits.  They are either winning and stay in combat, or any time they're losing reset the fight until that one timeline in 4 million where they win.  Makes you wonder if someone was drunk when designing these classes.

[kash.9213]

8 minutes ago, Wreckdum.8367 said:

Y'all acting like stealth is the real issue in WvW and not classes with infinite dodge/blink/teleport.  Unlimited mobility builds are much worse.  Ranger/thief/mesmer are the main culprits.  They are either winning and stay in combat, or any time they're losing reset the fight until that one timeline in 4 million where they win.  Makes you wonder if someone was drunk when designing these classes.

What skills and utility are we talking about there? Cooldowns and resource costs are a limiting factor so they can't be unlimited. Those can be stacked or chained if they decide to use the slots for it. My Acrobatics build lets me stagger some things out to be more likely to have a dodge or evade or two ready at the right times, not going to be ashamed of having that along with a few positioning slots. I don't like fighting a stacked deck like that either and I normally don't bother but I did decide to use some slots for Control to manage some of that. They don't get drunk until they start nerfing stuff, stumbling around too much to look at specific skills and combinations so just price every build out with a resource cost hike or something. 

[shrew.3059]

9 hours ago, Wreckdum.8367 said:

They are either winning and stay in combat, or any time they're losing reset the fight until that one timeline in 4 million where they win. 

 

If they are patient enough to wait for that one timeline and you don’t take active steps to kill/disengage, pretty sure they’ve earned that win.

 

WvW isn’t sPvP so it’s not going to give you an arena to fight your opponents to the death on your terms; if you’re being hunted by a persistent player, you can either find a way to kill them or disengage. You know, the same options they have.

[choovanski.5462]

On 8/28/2021 at 1:37 AM, ASP.8093 said:

The other day, I threw a Target Painter into a guy's Shadow Refuge and he popped out of stealth and got killed by a pew-pew ranger before he could figure out what was happening.

 

These forums focus way too much on whether or not Target Painter "counters" stealth. The correct answer is: if you learn how to use Target Painter, you're gonna have FUN.

sure target painters are fun and all, but they are kind of a problem. they make thief the only class you need supply and items to fight. you literally need extra things outside of your build to even the playing field. if that doesn't indicate stealth is OP and a problem, I don't know what does.

 

consider the situation was changed slightly, and instead of stealth and target painters it was a different situation. let's say guardian now has an insane amount of aegis because of a new shadow arts style aegis traitline. imagine anet while making this insane balance change also add a target painter that stops the guardian gaining aegis for 30 seconds.

 

now you have almost perma aegis guardian that you can only fight with supply and an item. is that good game design? is that good balance? I dont think so man.

 

ima provide a different solution to just nerfing thief tho. I'm a warrior main, and we have revealed on useful shouts and our spellbreaker chain. those are really good skills that fit in builds well. all classes need this treatment. good useful utility skills need reveal added to them in addition to their current effects.

Edited August 29, 2021 by choovanski.5462

[shrew.3059]

1 hour ago, choovanski.5462 said:

they make thief the only class you need supply and items to fight.

 

I think this obscures the more important question: do you need supply to fight them, or to gain a particular situational advantage?

 

What I see a lot of in these conversations is the following, “Thieves keep running away and I want them to stay and fight me, so nerf Stealth.” Thieves running away (choosing the time of engagement) is part of their class design and so flipping your statement on its head becomes “[traps] make Thief the only class whose core mechanics you can break with supply and items”. The advantage Thieves have to choose the terms of their engagement is balanced by the fact that they are squishy and that running away is not a victory in itself. They escaped you, which makes them hard to kill, which is different than hard to beat, since running away is a tacit acceptance of (however momentary) defeat.

[Quench.7091]

How about they start at getting rid of the counter counter (Shadow Meld's reveal removal mechanic) that they given Deadeyes, so that we don't need a counter counter counter? Just seems like a good place to start for a class that doesn't even need to remove reveal to escape. Reveals have also been nerfed since they first got that ability, with things like Detection Pulse being removed from Stealth Gyro and placed on Utility Goggles.

[Shroud.2307]

2 hours ago, shrew.3059 said:

 

“[traps] make Thief the only class whose core mechanics you can break with supply and items”

Alternatively, Thief is the only class that needed an external source to be added to the game to prevent people from being able to hide in/around objectives with 95% Stealth uptime, because Reveal doesn't stack, meaning multiple people hitting a Thief with a Reveal skill isn't very effective.

Honestly, I'm not disagreeing with the rest of what you're saying. But I also feel like your point is both true and unfair at the same time. 

[kash.9213]

2 hours ago, Quench.7091 said:

How about they start at getting rid of the counter counter (Shadow Meld's reveal removal mechanic) that they given Deadeyes, so that we don't need a counter counter counter? Just seems like a good place to start for a class that doesn't even need to remove reveal to escape. Reveals have also been nerfed since they first got that ability, with things like Detection Pulse being removed from Stealth Gyro and placed on Utility Goggles.

Shadow Meld feels like a let down for an Elite skill unless you want to troll around someone's corner. Admittedly I'm probably just bad and missing the thing about it but I could really use something there to boost Kneel stance. It's fun with One in the Chamber if your lazy and want to spray someone with Stolen skills but it's too problematic for the game mode and just more of the same. If it dropped remove reveal and Shadow Melded a radius around me for a duration that would be awesome, doesn't even have to be a full Stealth, mostly just need the Stealth Attacks and modifiers and since it's an Elite, top it off with something nice. 

[Quench.7091]

48 minutes ago, kash.9213 said:

Shadow Meld feels like a let down for an Elite skill unless you want to troll around someone's corner. Admittedly I'm probably just bad and missing the thing about it but I could really use something there to boost Kneel stance. It's fun with One in the Chamber if your lazy and want to spray someone with Stolen skills but it's too problematic for the game mode and just more of the same. If it dropped remove reveal and Shadow Melded a radius around me for a duration that would be awesome, doesn't even have to be a full Stealth, mostly just need the Stealth Attacks and modifiers and since it's an Elite, top it off with something nice. 

It feels like it's one of those things where it would be really good, if it weren't for the fact that it exists and deters the enemy from bothering to pick up reveal skills, so instead it settles with being decent. It can't be great, because it made its own purpose extinct.

[saerni.2584]

3 hours ago, Quench.7091 said:

How about they start at getting rid of the counter counter (Shadow Meld's reveal removal mechanic) that they given Deadeyes, so that we don't need a counter counter counter? Just seems like a good place to start for a class that doesn't even need to remove reveal to escape. Reveals have also been nerfed since they first got that ability, with things like Detection Pulse being removed from Stealth Gyro and placed on Utility Goggles.

This is what happens when someone blows their reveal cooldowns at the start of the fight. Deadeye isn't going to save their elite only for when they are revealed. 
 

If you force them to use Shadow Meld in other ways, or just let them use their Shadow Meld, then there's a delay before they can recast it of 5 seconds. Or, if they use both charges you can reveal and they can't do anything about it. It's a 45 second cooldown per charge.

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/"On_My_Mark!" For example is a 25 second cooldown with two charges. Use it once, then pressure them into using their first charge, then use a second charge. They can't recast Meld for a full 5 seconds and will be revealed for the full duration while you smack them.
 

Having a temporary hard counter (reveal) is a powerful tool but DE makes it not just an "I win" button. However, many DE are running a different elite because they prefer to have reflect and evade over two shorter duration stealth charges, even with the reveal clear aspect. Or unblockable stun with venom even. 

[shrew.3059]

3 hours ago, Shroud.2307 said:

Honestly, I'm not disagreeing with the rest of what you're saying. But I also feel like your point is both true and unfair at the same time. 

 

It’s definitely unfair as a general argument, but was only meant as a counter to the initial argument: “Thieves require supply to fight”. As you rightly point out, the uniqueness of traps isn’t evidence of an overpowered mechanic, simply how that mechanic interacts with WvW structures.

[Quench.7091]

4 minutes ago, saerni.2584 said:

This is what happens when someone blows their reveal cooldowns at the start of the fight. Deadeye isn't going to save their elite only for when they are revealed. 
 

If you force them to use Shadow Meld in other ways, or just let them use their Shadow Meld, then there's a delay before they can recast it of 5 seconds. Or, if they use both charges you can reveal and they can't do anything about it. It's a 45 second cooldown per charge.

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/"On_My_Mark!" For example is a 25 second cooldown with two charges. Use it once, then pressure them into using their first charge, then use a second charge. They can't recast Meld for a full 5 seconds and will be revealed for the full duration while you smack them.
 

Having a temporary hard counter (reveal) is a powerful tool but DE makes it not just an "I win" button. However, many DE are running a different elite because they prefer to have reflect and evade over two shorter duration stealth charges, even with the reveal clear aspect. Or unblockable stun with venom even. 

"On My Mark" requires a target and cannot hit an already stealthed target, so Sight Beyond Sight might be a better example in that context, but I see your point. There are reveals that are good at fighting Shadow Meld. It is still strange that Shadow Meld is allowed to do what it does given how few in number reveal abilities are, how certain reveals aren't good enough to be equipped at all times, and how annoying of a mechanic stealth is to deal with in general. If someone hits you with a reveal, it should stick.

[saerni.2584]

5 hours ago, Quench.7091 said:

"On My Mark" requires a target and cannot hit an already stealthed target, so Sight Beyond Sight might be a better example in that context, but I see your point. There are reveals that are good at fighting Shadow Meld. It is still strange that Shadow Meld is allowed to do what it does given how few in number reveal abilities are, how certain reveals aren't good enough to be equipped at all times, and how annoying of a mechanic stealth is to deal with in general. If someone hits you with a reveal, it should stick.

I'm not a fan of revealed as a mechanic. I think it causes too many problems by making someone more disadvantaged (on a stealth based profession) than any other type of comparable situation (even worse than a stun in some cases because the profession isn't designed to function well without stealth in combat (forcing them to lean into mobility to run away). 
 

If anything, I'd prefer that Anet rework the "Marked" mechanic to be: 

 

Staying in stealth longer than 6 seconds will apply revealed for 3 seconds.

 

I'd then replace Reveal with Marked for skills that currently apply revealed. Set the standard duration at 10-15 seconds. 

[Quench.7091]

24 minutes ago, saerni.2584 said:

I'm not a fan of revealed as a mechanic. I think it causes too many problems by making someone more disadvantaged (on a stealth based profession) than any other type of comparable situation (even worse than a stun in some cases because the profession isn't designed to function well without stealth in combat (forcing them to lean into mobility to run away). 
 

If anything, I'd prefer that Anet rework the "Marked" mechanic to be: 

 

Staying in stealth longer than 6 seconds will apply revealed for 3 seconds.

 

I'd then replace Reveal with Marked for skills that currently apply revealed. Set the standard duration at 10-15 seconds. 

Some of the numbers might be off, given how far a thief can run in 6 seconds, but I do think making a distinction between a self applied reveal and reveal being used by an enemy is needed. Reworking the marked mechanic and then getting players involved in that would be a good solution.