Memser instant cc mantra

[DanSH.6143]

Do we really need this much instant ranged cc that can also put skills on 13 second cooldown? 

this skill needs a massive cd nerf in pvp imo, just makes for frustrating gameplay.

[SevlisBavles.3059]

That is basically the entire point of the Mesmer. For me it is the one single thing that makes it similar to Guild Wars 1. Guild Wars 1 Mesmer revolved almost entirely around skill denial, perfectly timing interrupts and even specific interrupt skills that would increase cooldowns on skills it interrupted by far more than just 15 seconds. It is incredibly skill-based and requires really precise timing, it's definitely not something that is easy to spam like Scourge skills or Renegade.

 

I would absolutely hate to see Mesmer lose that beautiful dynamic, both when fighting them and having to fake cast and stow skills and when playing it and carefully watching my opponent for the animation that indicates a heal skill or an Elite skill.

Edited August 23, 2021 by SevlisBavles.3059

[mortrialus.3062]

edit misread op.

Edited August 23, 2021 by mortrialus.3062

[BlackTruth.6813]

I mean why are Mesmers able to shatter/mantra while evading, their hp pool is too high for that to be fair since the beginning of the game assuming were gonna talk about "HP pool" as a valid argument why is it medium when Thief can literally die to random AoE from other classes and Mesmers just laugh at AoE/contribute to the problem themselves by being obnoxious and not fun in design to fight against. At least Mesmer "had" builds that took skill (Countless style, bruiser "juggle" base Mesmer pre-HoT 2015) where you had to land some telegraphed abilities and hold point compared to Ranger and Guardian. But even he would agree that stealth burst instant cast shatter Mesmer or w/e meta "instant-cast" variant of mesmer was always obnoxious and anti-fun.

 

TELEGRAPHED ATTACKS are finally coming to Mesmer elite, and Mesmer players complaining and will probably not play Virtouso if it's "balanced" or anywhere near reasonable. I doubt people are going to adjust that easily tbh and ANET will probably just not touch the instant cast specs this time around.

 

Historically, this class HAS to be underpowered to be balanced. Literally, Mesmer players were finding excuses that their lives were hard when they were actually a strong counter to Rampage Warrior on 2015 pre-HoT, but it was probably the best time for any class then, and I for once thought Mesmer (along with the other classes that I hated) was ok during that time. And on average, when Mesmers played a telegraphed class they just rage quit and came back to easy instant cast evade spamming class, they literally need to start considering this too because you shouldn't be balancing around privileged instant cast evade spammers.

Edited August 23, 2021 by BlackTruth.6813

[Leonidrex.5649]

19 minutes ago, BlackTruth.6813 said:

I mean why are Mesmers able to shatter/mantra while evading, their hp pool is too high for that to be fair since the beginning of the game assuming were gonna talk about "HP pool" as a valid argument why is it medium when Thief can literally die to random AoE from other classes and Mesmers just laugh at AoE/contribute to the problem themselves by being obnoxious and not fun in design to fight against. At least Mesmer "had" builds that took skill (Countless style, bruiser "juggle" base Mesmer pre-HoT 2015) where you had to land some telegraphed abilities and hold point compared to Ranger and Guardian. But even he would agree that stealth burst instant cast shatter Mesmer or w/e meta "instant-cast" variant of mesmer was always obnoxious and anti-fun.

 

TELEGRAPHED ATTACKS are finally coming to Mesmer elite, and Mesmer players complaining and will probably not play Virtouso if it's "balanced" or anywhere near reasonable. I doubt people are going to adjust that easily tbh and ANET will probably just not touch the instant cast specs this time around.

 

Historically, this class HAS to be underpowered to be balanced. Literally, Mesmer players were finding excuses that their lives were hard when they were actually a strong counter to Rampage Warrior on 2015 pre-HoT, but it was probably the best time for any class then, and I for once thought Mesmer (along with the other classes that I hated) was ok during that time. And on average, when Mesmers played a telegraphed class they just rage quit and came back to easy instant cast evade spamming class, they literally need to start considering this too because you shouldn't be balancing around privileged instant cast evade spammers.

guy here living in the past, its no longer 2015.
wake the kitten up samurai, we have a forum to burn
game is not balanced around mesmer, as mesmer is dog kitten. any mesmer worth their salt can pick up a class and do better within weeks. mesmer is one of if not the most mechanically intensive class out there, and its the most punishing to kitten up on
people wont play virtuoso because its bad, clunky, buggy, and easy to counter.

Edited August 23, 2021 by Leonidrex.5649

[Swagg.9236]

3 hours ago, SevlisBavles.3059 said:

That is basically the entire point of the Mesmer. For me it is the one single thing that makes it similar to Guild Wars 1. Guild Wars 1 Mesmer revolved almost entirely around skill denial, perfectly timing interrupts and even specific interrupt skills that would increase cooldowns on skills it interrupted by far more than just 15 seconds. It is incredibly skill-based and requires really precise timing, it's definitely not something that is easy to spam like Scourge skills or Renegade.

 

I would absolutely hate to see Mesmer lose that beautiful dynamic, both when fighting them and having to fake cast and stow skills and when playing it and carefully watching my opponent for the animation that indicates a heal skill or an Elite skill.

GW2 is far more spammy and less calculating than GW1.  While, certainly, it's possible to be keen with particular interrupts using the Mesmer mantras, even just firing it off is enough to get huge returns in most cases (especially considering how rotation-based GW2 combat is).  At least GW1 interrupts had to put Mesmers into the spell range of enemy casters as well; it's a lot more uneven here (and without the distinction between skill, spell, shout, etc in GW2, once again, it's far easier to get big returns by just throwing out an interrupt in GW2 than it ever was in GW1).

 

Mantra interrupts aren't a unique or flavorful feature.  They're just an overtuned and more annoying version of something that every other class already has and employs regularly.

[Leonidrex.5649]

6 minutes ago, Swagg.9236 said:

GW2 is far more spammy and less calculating than GW1.  While, certainly, it's possible to be keen with particular interrupts using the Mesmer mantras, even just firing it off is enough to get huge returns in most cases (especially considering how rotation-based GW2 combat is).  At least GW1 interrupts had to put Mesmers into the spell range of enemy casters as well; it's a lot more uneven here (and without the distinction between skill, spell, shout, etc in GW2, once again, it's far easier to get big returns by just throwing out an interrupt in GW2 than it ever was in GW1).

 

Mantra interrupts aren't a unique or flavorful feature.  They're just an overtuned and more annoying version of something that every other class already has and employs regularly.

how is 1200 range outside of " range of enemy casters " ?
is there a single class that cant engage you from 1200 range?
ranger lb is over 1800
any thief/mesmer has blink 1200 + skill range.
rev can port from over 1200, or chain several teleports
necro staff can hit you from over 1200 etc etc

[Ovark.2514]

3 hours ago, SevlisBavles.3059 said:

That is basically the entire point of the Mesmer. For me it is the one single thing that makes it similar to Guild Wars 1. Guild Wars 1 Mesmer revolved almost entirely around skill denial, perfectly timing interrupts and even specific interrupt skills that would increase cooldowns on skills it interrupted by far more than just 15 seconds. It is incredibly skill-based and requires really precise timing, it's definitely not something that is easy to spam like Scourge skills or Renegade.

 

I would absolutely hate to see Mesmer lose that beautiful dynamic, both when fighting them and having to fake cast and stow skills and when playing it and carefully watching my opponent for the animation that indicates a heal skill or an Elite skill.

It's pretty messed up to be able to cc someone from range with no cast time or animation. Flavor or not it's unhealthy for the game mode.

[Swagg.9236]

1 minute ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

how is 1200 range outside of " range of enemy casters " ?
is there a single class that cant engage you from 1200 range?
ranger lb is over 1800
any thief/mesmer has blink 1200 + skill range.
rev can port from over 1200, or chain several teleports
necro staff can hit you from over 1200 etc etc

Ranges are a lot more arbitrary in GW2 across all classes and weapon sets.  Moreover, instant speed at 1200 range can easily come in from off-screen or be easily obscured and folded into other skills.  GW1 forced players to make decisions and commitments with what they were doing at any given time whether it be activating a skill, baiting an interrupt or waiting for the right moment (or skill) to interrupt.  In GW2, almost every skill is worth an interrupt because of how rotation-based the combat is, and being able to interrupt at instant speed means that a player is almost guaranteed to get a big return at any given time that the daze mantra is available to cast (because of how innately spammy GW2 is).

[Leonidrex.5649]

6 minutes ago, Swagg.9236 said:

Ranges are a lot more arbitrary in GW2 across all classes and weapon sets.  Moreover, instant speed at 1200 range can easily come in from off-screen or be easily obscured and folded into other skills.  GW1 forced players to make decisions and commitments with what they were doing at any given time whether it be activating a skill, baiting an interrupt or waiting for the right moment (or skill) to interrupt.  In GW2, almost every skill is worth an interrupt because of how rotation-based the combat is, and being able to interrupt at instant speed means that a player is almost guaranteed to get a big return at any given time that the daze mantra is available to cast (because of how innately spammy GW2 is).

and that is different from any other offensive/defensive skill how exactly ?
how is it different from instant aegis/blind or just a must dodge skill?
oh right, you have to actually interupt something, you know, back and fourth, counterplay is there. much more then from kitten other classes use.
Its only unfun when you get outplayed by it, because daze itself is not a threat itself, expecially not form a mesmer

[Swagg.9236]

18 minutes ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

and that is different from any other offensive/defensive skill how exactly ?
how is it different from instant aegis/blind or just a must dodge skill?
oh right, you have to actually interupt something, you know, back and fourth, counterplay is there. much more then from kitten other classes use.
Its only unfun when you get outplayed by it, because daze itself is not a threat itself, expecially not form a mesmer

OK, so now you're discussing hard counter interactions.  Either somebody is going to get interrupted or the Mesmer is going to fizzle on his build's primary gimmick.  That's the big issue with GW2 combat interactions:  the "counterplay" in most cases is either excessive passivity or outright negating an opponent's efforts with little to no effort at all (often at instant speeds).  Just because the interaction can go the other way against the Mesmer doesn't mean that it's an overall healthy dynamic.

[Hirosama Nadasaki.6792]

Mesmer is one of the worst performing classes in pvp right now and people are still calling for nerfs. Outstanding.

Would it really be so hard to pick up the class yourself so you learn how it works and how to play against it? Or do you just want to turn your brain off and faceroll until you win? If so you should just skip to the chase and say so.

 

Edit: to the people spamming confused emote on every post: use your words, I don't speak bottom.

Edited August 24, 2021 by Hirosama Nadasaki.6792

[Leonidrex.5649]

1 hour ago, Swagg.9236 said:

OK, so now you're discussing hard counter interactions.  Either somebody is going to get interrupted or the Mesmer is going to fizzle on his build's primary gimmick.  That's the big issue with GW2 combat interactions:  the "counterplay" in most cases is either excessive passivity or outright negating an opponent's efforts with little to no effort at all (often at instant speeds).  Just because the interaction can go the other way against the Mesmer doesn't mean that it's an overall healthy dynamic.

if you want sluggish, slow gameplay go play gw1. I like gw2 for its fast paced combat, and quick decision making, instead of whining to turn the game into something different, we should make it better at what its already is.
PB has its counters, having to take mantra in itself is a downside, as 2x daze by itself isnt all that amazing. You can jebait the interrupts, or defend important skills with aegis/blind/stealth/stab.

I get it, fighting mesmer is different then any other class, but that is a good thing, we should have more builds with unique gimmick, otherwise we will end up with an army of clones that all suck and only 1 thing is played since its numbers are slightly better.
Thief is similarly hated, but the truth is, without classes like mesmer, or thief. this game is kittening boring as kitten.
You will have prot holo, bunker scrappers, fire weavers, support guards and necros. Slow game, with decisions that have no impact on the game, people get just bored and drift away.
Personally I would rather have absolute blast playing 2 games and then rage for another 2, then just be bored for whole 4 as the game is slow as kitten.
 

[Genesis.5169]

13 hours ago, DanSH.6143 said:

Do we really need this much instant ranged cc that can also put skills on 13 second cooldown? 

this skill needs a massive cd nerf in pvp imo, just makes for frustrating gameplay.

 

This guy is not a mesmer main.

Just letting everyone know.

[Swagg.9236]

9 hours ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

if you want sluggish, slow gameplay go play gw1. I like gw2 for its fast paced combat, and quick decision making, instead of whining to turn the game into something different, we should make it better at what its already is.
PB has its counters, having to take mantra in itself is a downside, as 2x daze by itself isnt all that amazing. You can jebait the interrupts, or defend important skills with aegis/blind/stealth/stab.

I get it, fighting mesmer is different then any other class, but that is a good thing, we should have more builds with unique gimmick, otherwise we will end up with an army of clones that all suck and only 1 thing is played since its numbers are slightly better.
Thief is similarly hated, but the truth is, without classes like mesmer, or thief. this game is kittening boring as kitten.
You will have prot holo, bunker scrappers, fire weavers, support guards and necros. Slow game, with decisions that have no impact on the game, people get just bored and drift away.
Personally I would rather have absolute blast playing 2 games and then rage for another 2, then just be bored for whole 4 as the game is slow as kitten.
 

This isn't about comparing one game to another; it's about combat design at its core.  GW1, despite certainly being clunky, had a lot of depth to it precisely because the value of 1v1s was rather low in the grand scheme of combat:  more often than not the team that coordinated its build designs and actions better was the victor, and there was a lot of grey area for player decision-making outside of just laser focus onto single targets.  GW2, despite being "fast" has infinitely less depth than its predecessor precisely because all of that team-centric composition and execution was thrown out the window for one-man-army builds that sort of just roam around and pick the easiest fights to win.

 

The incentives and values for fights and objectives are thrown way off from what they once were, and that's why you end up with "Haha, you can't play the game" moments in almost every scenario in GW2 regardless of which class you end up fighting:  every "good" build in GW2 aims to deny its opponent's innate agency.  That's generally unhealthy for a PvP's skill floor and ceiling; everything is compressed into flow-chart decision making rather than players looking for new strategies or insight.  The fact that you actually would prefer "have [an] absolute blast playing 2 games and then rage for another 2" is the evidence of how flawed GW2's holistic design philosophy is:  it's inconsistent; dependent on builds rather than player skill.

 

That said, it's entirely your right to enjoy a binary interaction like that.  You just have to be honest with yourself and everybody else about the reality of its shallow, low-effort nature.

Edited August 24, 2021 by Swagg.9236

[Mik.3401]

15 hours ago, DanSH.6143 said:

Do we really need this much instant ranged cc that can also put skills on 13 second cooldown? 

this skill needs a massive cd nerf in pvp imo, just makes for frustrating gameplay.

Do you know what Mesmer is about? The mantra is literally one of the few remaining skills preserving some Mesmer identity. The extended cooldown comes from power block

 

Meanwhile:

power ranger - fine , necro in all shapes and forms - fine , thief with perms stealth - fine , Holo and Herald with huge dps numbers and great mobility and ok sustain - fine

 

but Mesmer being nerfed to the ground still gets people moaning, incredible

Edited August 24, 2021 by Mik.3401

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

Power block is fine as long as thief remains where it is. It is one of mesmer's tools for their position as a warrior counter and once you encounter it once and know it is being run, you can stow, LoS, or move behind the mesmer to press any critical buttons.  Not to mention it's on their Domination line, so they have to skip Mental Anguish and Vicious Expression (both of which would probably roll someone so predictable that they find power block a consistent problem harder) to take it.

 

They're annoying, but not overpowered. This isn't a cry issue. Let's not suck all the fun out of the game for the mesmer mains, especially since we don't know what the Thief, Warrior, and Ele elite specs are. They can potentially end up countered in the future anyway. 

Edited August 24, 2021 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

Coming from Warrior (you know, the most easily-kited class that's only viable in melee range and has no access to instant-cast CCs, much less instant cast CC from range), I have little sympathy for arguments that Mesmer "needs" a plethora of instant-cast CCs that can be done from 1200 range.  However, I do appreciate that this is sort of Mesmer's "thing," and that the dazes by themselves are not too overbearing.  The fact that it can be combined with the mesmer's ability to flat out delete someone in ~1s with a burst combo as well as go invuln, stealth, teleport, etc, does make the total product pretty darn strong, though.

 

I think power block is the real problem to be honest.  I don't disagree in principle with a trait that can prolong the usual 4s CD from interrupting a skill, but 15s is ridiculous.  If you put someone's heal skill (or some other key defensive CD) on a 15s CD in the middle of a team fight (or even a duel), it's usually gg for that player.  

 

In general, I think that skills/utilities that can single-use screw someone over are bad for the state of the game.  Power Block is just one such trait; there are doubtless many others.  Good, engaging gameplay is centered players be interactable and counterable, and there isn't a whole of either of those with instant cast ranged interrupts that shut down skills for 15s.  The CC isn't the problem; stun-breaks counter it.  It's the excessive skill shut down (to which there really isn't a counter or "antidote") that's the issue.

[Raiden The Beast.3016]

Top mes said mantra op, just nerf it ... it is known since 4ever

[Bear.9568]

So much L2P here. I could play mesmer without mantras and OP would still cry from frustration..... Did anyone catch that?

[Grand Marshal.4098]

3 minutes ago, Bear.9568 said:

So much L2P here. I could play mesmer without mantras and OP would still cry from frustration..... Did anyone catch that?

Nah not rly. Actually I think I'm kinda confused... 

[Leonidrex.5649]

16 minutes ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

Nah not rly. Actually I think I'm kinda confused... 

im not, his blade just missed me, since I was holding W