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Virtuoso Does NOT need UNBLOCKABLE Shatters


Monkey See.1498

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3 hours ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

There's Helseth too. And I say the same, plat 2 mesmer main. And pretty much every other mesmer I've talked to.

Not just talking about mesmer players, everyone , from drazeh to boyce to naru will say it. You would be hard pressed to find a single player above a certain caliber who disagrees

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7 hours ago, Quadox.7834 said:

It's trivial to be plat on core mes or ele

I know it is off topic but I’m so intrigued how everyone are plat on these forums lol I keep seeing statements like this

 

Regarding the OP, Virtuoso is basically a castrated core Mesmer. No illusionary persona and those slow activation of slow shatter projectiles makes it equal to dunno, core rev? Though I’m not sure if that’s not to high

 

 

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2 hours ago, Mik.3401 said:

I know it is off topic but I’m so intrigued how everyone are plat on these forums lol I keep seeing statements like this

 

Regarding the OP, Virtuoso is basically a castrated core Mesmer. No illusionary persona and those slow activation of slow shatter projectiles makes it equal to dunno, core rev? Though I’m not sure if that’s not to high

 

 

Virtuoso has no mobility itself, no condi cleanse, no sustain, only dps, that is all. Core mesmer also doesn't offer the sustain needed for a snail/tortoise specialization. Then add that all its offensive kit are projectiles ALL them.  Dagger skills, Bladesongs (F skills), offensive utilities... and two of the four defensive skills are channeled. Also its traits don't offer survivability, only an Aegis in their Bladesongs if traited. Great, you will block your first blade reflected.  🤣   Well, good luck with that kit of skills.   

 

Design a specialization that, at the end, will require all the core skills ignoring their own ones and even doing that, still not be competitive against not only old specializations plus the upcoming ones to like the Harbinger...  it's deplorable, unless you designed it in that way on purpose. The Willbender has potential and future-proofing in its basic design with few changes and improvements. Not the Virtuoso, it should require a redesign. I tried to give some feedback and ideas. But that will require creating even a new skill or two, including its animations and sounds, as well as reworking several traits, etc, with all the time required for design and coding all that. Something that I really doubt they'll do.  Maybe few changes, so what the Virtuoso needs is a miracle. The Harbinger looks good after testing it, the Virtuoso is a joke, a bad one from a competitive point of view if you want to play it.

 

It looks like that the Virtuoso was designed for easy PvE events, social media with pretty animations, roleplay, to wear and show its cute outfits... And, of course, designed to not give headaches to his foes and be a free kill/free bag.  So it is understandable to watch players from other profession come here to tell the world how wonderful and revolutionary the Virtuoso is.  Obviously because it's their perfect enemy.  The Virtuoso is like a snail you find out there, you can stomp on it even unintentionally or willingly, or simply ignore it because it cannot do anything to you, much less follow you with its impressive null mobility.  And no-mesmers players, obviously, are very happy and don't want improvements in the Virtuso, so they are saying and writing everywhere how perfect and amazing the Virtuso is. That is all.

Edited by Zoser.7245
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1 hour ago, Zoser.7245 said:

Virtuoso has no mobility itself

 

 The Virtuoso is like a snail you find out there, you can stomp on it even unintentionally or willingly, or simply ignore it because it cannot do anything to you, much less follow you with its impressive null mobility. 

Virtuoso with the new Sword 3 has about the same level as mobility as a ranger with Greatsword.  Plus you have blink.

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3 hours ago, Monkey See.1498 said:

Virtuoso with the new Sword 3 has about the same level as mobility as a ranger with Greatsword.  Plus you have blink.

Thanks for give me and other mesmers the reason. The Virtuoso itself does not have mobility, so zero mobility in the specialization. If you first need to resort to a mesmer core melee weapon to gain mobility when you have been designed to fight at range and your sustain is zero, bad business. Blades even does not work with illusions traits as aren't illusions. Little more needs to be said. 

 

With 9 core professions and in few months 27 specializations, good luck if core mesmer skills and traits are better and more useful than your whole kit.  The other new specializations add mobility by themselves to what their core professions already have. And also more useful skills and traits than the dps, dps, dps and little else that the Virtuoso brings to the profession.

Edited by Zoser.7245
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8 hours ago, Zoser.7245 said:

Thanks for give me and other mesmers the reason. The Virtuoso itself does not have mobility, so zero mobility in the specialization. If you first need to resort to a mesmer core melee weapon to gain mobility when you have been designed to fight at range and your sustain is zero, bad business. Blades even does not work with illusions traits as aren't illusions. Little more needs to be said. 

 

With 9 core professions and in few months 27 specializations, good luck if core mesmer skills and traits are better and more useful than your whole kit.  The other new specializations add mobility by themselves to what their core professions already have. And also more useful skills and traits than the dps, dps, dps and little else that the Virtuoso brings to the profession.

Is anet listens to mesmers we're going to have another mirage situation.  Remember Mesmer players all said Mirage was unplayable and begged for an absurd amount of buffs which they got and it made Mirage OP which it continues to be to this day? 

Arenanet should listen to nonmesmers talk about Virtuoso.  NOT mesmers.  Virtuoso is good and where other mesmer specs should be at.

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41 minutes ago, Monkey See.1498 said:

Is anet listens to mesmers we're going to have another mirage situation.  Remember Mesmer players all said Mirage was unplayable and begged for an absurd amount of buffs which they got and it made Mirage OP which it continues to be to this day? 

Arenanet should listen to nonmesmers talk about Virtuoso.  NOT mesmers.  Virtuoso is good and where other mesmer specs should be at.

That is not true because the Virtuoso does not have the double-edged knife that is  the Mirage's mechanics, the Mirage Cloak. And thanks to listen the mesmer it end being a good specialization. It was not so OP but it needed a good balance... and instead of do that, what happened due to listen to the non-mesmers was a garbage and lazy balance decision and we ended with half endurance and the "One Dodge Man".  The developers recognized it. CMC even laughed publicly about it in the Virtuoso's presentation at the beta preview.


Another example of what happens when developers listen to non-mesmer is the Chronomancer... Another one than ended being garbage after the rework and only recovered partially by listen to mesmers and giving back him again the Illusionary Persona.

 

But this time, nothing will save the Virtuoso, i doubt it. And to listen to non-mesmers, the best thing they could do is delete the profession since non-mesmers do not play it, does not have interest in it and mesmers would not play a profession that is designed by people who do not play the profession and don't have interest in it. So it would be a waste of time to continue developing a profession that no one would play or be interested in. Then the best thing would be to eliminate it and dedicate the time to something more productive.

 

Edited by Zoser.7245
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38 minutes ago, Monkey See.1498 said:

Is anet listens to mesmers we're going to have another mirage situation.  Remember Mesmer players all said Mirage was unplayable and begged for an absurd amount of buffs which they got and it made Mirage OP which it continues to be to this day? 

Arenanet should listen to nonmesmers talk about Virtuoso.  NOT mesmers.  Virtuoso is good and where other mesmer specs should be at.

 ? The mirage mechanic did not change much from the start, the only difference is that it got 1 dodge removed and received other nerfs. Mirage was just a strong design from the start.

Virtuoso is unplayable from the start on the other hand. I don’t even know how they can fix it. So you and your fellow non-Mesmers cheering for virtuoso should be happy.

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5 minutes ago, Mik.3401 said:

 ? The mirage mechanic did not change much from the start, the only difference is that it got 1 dodge removed and received other nerfs. Mirage was just a strong design from the start.

Virtuoso is unplayable from the start on the other hand. I don’t even know how they can fix it. So you and your fellow non-Mesmers cheering for virtuoso should be happy.

I'm talking about stuff like this after the PoF specialization beta. 

 

Anet listening to "pro mesmers" about how "garbage" mirage was created one of the most enduringly overpowered classes in the game's history. 

 

Virtuoso is fine.  Good even.  And Anet should 100% not listen to mesmer players this time begging for buffs like they did with "garbage" mirage.

Edited by Monkey See.1498
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1 hour ago, Monkey See.1498 said:

I'm talking about stuff like this after the PoF specialization beta. 

 

Anet listening to "pro mesmers" about how "garbage" mirage was created one of the most enduringly overpowered classes in the game's history. 

 

Virtuoso is fine.  Good even.  And Anet should 100% not listen to mesmer players this time begging for buffs like they did with "garbage" mirage.

 

If Anet is so stupid to listen to people who have financial interests, it is not my problem. And if a group of colleagues meets in a Discord channel to decide what and how to balance either. That is not listening to the mesmer community. It has nothing to do with it. And that's why things are going badly. If all continue as now, in the same way, soon there will be no mesmers who bother going to the forums to try to contribute something. Only non-mesmer, like now, trying to secure for themselves that mesmer profession and specializations will not be competitive, an easy prey. And if it's also garbage in PvE, even better.

 

Virtuoso is only fine for non-mesmers. So yes, is fine for you, of course. no doubt. Congrats.

Edited by Zoser.7245
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Virtuoso felt playable. The burst was very solid, but it has problems. 

 

It's a little too fair. 

 

Hear me out. 

 

This is a competitive game mode. Your goal as a player is to gain the advantage over the other team, and then carry that advantage to an eventual victory. 

 

You want your skills to help you gain that advantage, and in order to do that, you want theses skills to be just a tiny bit unfair. Sounds counterintuitive, but that is how functional classes operate. They put their opponent into difficult situations in which you're more likely to come out on top. 

 

When you fight virtuoso and you see them wave a neon sign above their heads saying "I'm bursting now", all you have to do is strafe and that burst they took the time to set up just misses. 

 

By using that burst against competent players, they didn't come out on top. They didn't even break even, they fell behind because their burst is on cooldown, and the opponent didn't even need to expend a dodge in the exchange. 

 

There is a lot of this in the virtuoso's kit. Skills that are easy to side step, very obvious telegraphs, ineffective defensive options. Imo it needs 5 small changes before it's in a good spot. 

 

1. Shatters are unblockable when at 5 daggers.

2. Shatters properly track moving targets. 

3. Rain of daggers and ult deals increased damage to downstates. Ult unblockable. 

4. Dagger 3 cyclone deals damage on contact. 

5. F4 changed from block to distortion, scaling with number of daggers. Blade renewal changed to a block. 

 

After that, they should be just the right amount of fair. Still squishy. Shatters retain the trade-offs of being telegraphed, requiring a cast time, and not having Illusionary persona.

 

But at the very least, they should be able to function better with: 

 

  • A method of handling conditions (Distortion)
  • An f4 that doesn't scream to every thief "Free plasma! Come get your free plasma!"
  • More consistent shatters and dagger skills. 
  • Fewer useless utilities. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Kuma.1503
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Well, i don't think Virtuoso will ever be as strong as mirage in pvp, it's not designed for pvp. It'd be like expecting willbender to be strong in wvw. I mean, at least in wvw and pve virtuos is and will be strong, guards got a class that's bad in the gamemode it was designed for XD

So yeah, think of the mesmer mains that actually want a class to play in a WvW blob, this spec if for them and they deserve it.

Edited by Kanto.2485
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6 hours ago, Kanto.2485 said:

Well, i don't think Virtuoso will ever be as strong as mirage in pvp, it's not designed for pvp. It'd be like expecting willbender to be strong in wvw. I mean, at least in wvw and pve virtuos is and will be strong, guards got a class that's bad in the gamemode it was designed for XD

So yeah, think of the mesmer mains that actually want a class to play in a WvW blob, this spec if for them and they deserve it.

Virtuoso is all about projectiles, blades are proyectiles...  Dagger skills = projectiles, Bladesong F1 - F2 skills = projectiles, offensive utilities = projectiles, its healing skill also throw two blades = projectiles,  even there is trait that blocking or dodging stock and shots a blade (projectile), it will suicide itself if go to WvW with all the projectile hate, reflects and blocks.  Even worse in blobs/zergs where a lot of foes are poping up their defenses syncronized. The Virtuoso will be useless there. And also useless as a roamer as it doesn't have the utilities needed to do so, also no sustain. It will only be able kill a bad AI bot or, maybe, some bad player with two neurons at most.

 

And for PvE without sustain, good luck trying to solo tough bosses, bounties or even tough hero points, not even thinking in solo strikes, dungeons, etc.  It's clearly designed for casual players that do easy dynamic events and need to be carried  in groups to do something more difficult or challenging, and better with enough support as it lacks of sustain.  Also for players that only care about have a cool look with also cool animations and, often, don't have a clue what a build is.

 

And if I have to think badly. I even think that  they have designed it that way to literally forget about it, one less headache. If it is not good for compete there will be no complaints,  only from mesmers that, at some point, will get bored and play something else. 

 

Curiously, almost all of those who asked for a mesmer without illusions to play it and to prove something and also prove themselves... have disappeared from the mesmers forum. What a coincidence!!! 

Edited by Heika.5403
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On 8/24/2021 at 6:33 PM, Monkey See.1498 said:

Yes. I was hanging around in platinum just fine on Virtuoso.

No. 

 

The delay on those shatters plus Los makes it hard to be effective on when you can see it coming a mile away.

The elite also carries nothing to survive with no defensives except a aegis on shatter 5, and no mobility.

Edited by Axl.8924
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12 minutes ago, Axl.8924 said:

 

The delay on those shatters plus Los makes it hard to be effective on when you can see it coming a mile away.

The elite also carries nothing to survive with no defensives except a aegis on shatter 5, and no mobility.

An improvement from the stealth burst BS we are used to....

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2 hours ago, Mik.3401 said:

Now it will be stealth, trying to burst and death 😂

Mesmer players look at being on equal footing with other classes as the end of the world.

 

Get good and you'll win on virtuoso.  If you suck you'll be bad on it.  Why do you think it should be any other way?

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23 hours ago, Monkey See.1498 said:

I'm talking about stuff like this after the PoF specialization beta. 

 

Anet listening to "pro mesmers" about how "garbage" mirage was created one of the most enduringly overpowered classes in the game's history. 

 

Virtuoso is fine.  Good even.  And Anet should 100% not listen to mesmer players this time begging for buffs like they did with "garbage" mirage.

Funny how you linked that but didn't link anything Helseth said about Virtuoso.


By your opening post I can deduce Helseth is actually a bad player and was only carried by playing mesmer/chrono/mirage because he couldn't kill anything, he died a lot of times and lost almost all matches he played while on Virtuoso.

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42 minutes ago, Monkey See.1498 said:

Mesmer players look at being on equal footing with other classes as the end of the world.

 

Get good and you'll win on virtuoso.  If you suck you'll be bad on it.  Why do you think it should be any other way?

Let's be real...80-90% of current mesmer mains can't play for kitten outside the camping staff condi "bunker" mirage/core so I am not surprised 

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